Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[MajorMajora]

I don't really agree with using equipment, but saying equipment is completely broken is stupid. Every character has access to those "broken" equipment, unlike customs, where "broken" customs can only be accessed by a select few characters, thus making the equipment not broken (see: The Incredibles). So, technically, wouldn't equipment be just as, if not less, broken than customs?

I suppose the problem with customs is that it is luck based what equipment you get and how strong it is, and that there are some incredibly polarizing strategies, that, like you said, are available for all characters. I'm honestly not too sure how bad it would be to use equipment, but for now the consensus is that it's a bad idea.

 

[Piford]

Equipment can't work because there's no way to standardize it for tournaments.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Equipment can't work because there's no way to standardize it for tournaments.

All players can just bring the equipment sets they want to use on a 3DS. People can use whatever sets they like, or we could even have 8 sets that the community agrees on with 2 slots left for people who want to upload their own.

 

[Piford]

All players can just bring the equipment sets they want to use on a 3DS. People can use whatever sets they like, or we could even have 8 sets that the community agrees on with 2 slots left for people who want to upload their own.

I understand that this is a jab at custom moves, but equipment has random stats so even if the community agreed on 8 sets, there's no way to get those equipment pieces with exact stats on every system. You can't upload hacked equipment to a Wii U as far as I know, so you can't just cheat in order to get it on all of the systems. Custom moves don't have that issue.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I understand that this is a jab at custom moves, but equipment has random stats so even if the community agreed on 8 sets, there's no way to get those equipment pieces with exact stats on every system. You can't upload hacked equipment to a Wii U as far as I know, so you can't just cheat in order to get it on all of the systems. Custom moves don't have that issue.

I was more of a poke at folks saying things can/can't be done when the exact same thing was said for customs moves. I bet we COULD find a way to implement them but since enough people don't really wanna it probably wont become a thing.

Which I yet again will use to make a note that if folks don't WANT to play a certain way they wont actively try.

Though as an even further note the whole talking about equipment vs customs deal in general and how it always seems to come up in these sorts of conversations confuses me greatly.

 

[b2jammer]

I was more of a poke at folks saying things can/can't be done when the exact same thing was said for customs moves. I bet we COULD find a way to implement them but since enough people don't really wanna it probably wont become a thing.

Which I yet again will use to make a note that if folks don't WANT to play a certain way they wont actively try.

Though as an even further note the whole talking about equipment vs customs deal in general and how it always seems to come up in these sorts of conversations confuses me greatly.

It's gotta be because equipment and custom moves were lumped into the same customization menu and are treated much the same by Nintendo. Kind of a shame it had to be that way, too.

 

[Thinkaman]

Why equipment is definitively poor and unusable for competition:

1. Equipment drops are randomly generated
   • You can never unlock "all the equipment"
   • Any given 3DSs or WiiUs will have totally different sets of equipment
     • Even the "standardized" reward equipment that is always the same differs between the two platforms
       • And transfer sets cannot be edited, so these cannot be mixed
     • The only ones in common are the default 3 badges
   • A powersave-based solution would require all players to own a 3DS + powersave, with no alternatives.
     • Remember that unlike special moves, not using equipment is a strictly inferior option.
2. It is not just unreasonable, but impossible to practice against all possible combinations of equipment
   • Equipment affects core gameplay basics far more than specials
     • It affects knockback, changing combo strings and optimal DI
     • It affects jump height, which changes FH/SH durations, which changes which moves auto-cancel
3. Extreme variations in attack and defense builds result in wildly variable match length
   • Two all attack characters will kill each other roughly 8x faster, and can kill each other in only 2 moves.
   • Two all defense characters will kill each other roughly 8x slower, which compounded by stale moves might take over 150 attacks.
   • Neither of these possibilities is "broken", but they are both obviously unacceptable as both a gameplay and spectator experience.
4. Extreme variations in speed builds result in massive stalling in timed 1v1 matches
   • The game has a well-defined default mobility differential limit--the gap between the fastest and slowest character. Some matchups push this to its limit, but on common stages (including FD in particular), true indefinite stalling through mobility is not allowed.
     • Even custom specials all respect this limit; even Palutena mobility specials have cooldowns and penalty time.
   • Equipment shatters this barrier, and allows true indefinite stalling on any stage in the game in a generous number of matchup/equipment configurations.
5. The vast majority of equipment special effects are individually unfit for (or irrelevant to) competitive play.
   • I made a list once picking apart each one; I don't care to again, but trust me on this.
   • Many of the most powerful effects, like Crash Bomber, are super centralizing.
   • Many of the ones that "aren't that bad" compound the mobility creep issue and effect stalling.

It is essentially impossible to draft a coherent ruleset using equipment that maintains fairness and an expectation of an informed competitive field--and that's not even touching on logistical issues.

I really think the only hypothetically viable option is allowing players the option of using 1, 2, or all 3 of the default badges on both systems. (I actually predict that this would be a slight improvement to balance, since more weak characters than stronger characters have aerials that are one frame away from SH AC, but the overall impact is impossible to guess.) The benefits of this are really dubious though, and the costs are immense.


Now, let's please leave this strawman in the graveyard. Equipment is rejected for a myriad of reasons that simply do not apply to custom specials.

 

[LiteralGrill]

"The FC day two schedule moved along at a snail’s pace in part because the inexplicable decision to run three stock Smash 4 caused delays, which were further amplified by the queueing up of multiple stream matches and the excessive number of game changeovers. PSA to all TOs, please ignore the vocal, entitled, never-ran-a-tourney-before social media monsters that argue for a three stock Smash 4 ruleset. Stick to the proven two stock ruleset so you can finish the tourney at a reasonable hour."

From Jugglguy here. So.... discuss?

 

[Ghostbone]

"The FC day two schedule moved along at a snail’s pace in part because the inexplicable decision to run three stock Smash 4 caused delays, which were further amplified by the queueing up of multiple stream matches and the excessive number of game changeovers. PSA to all TOs, please ignore the vocal, entitled, never-ran-a-tourney-before social media monsters that argue for a three stock Smash 4 ruleset. Stick to the proven two stock ruleset so you can finish the tourney at a reasonable hour."

From Jugglguy here. So.... discuss?

Because it's not like Brawl, a slower game, ran 3 stocks for its entire life.

If a tournament goes overtime it's generally on the TO, not on the number of stocks.

 

[Pazx]

FC Return certainly had issues, particularly the top 6 of Smash 4, but having 3 stocks wasn't an issue. The format used was a 6 player best-of-five round robin (with two(?) Sheiks and a MK). It went about as swiftly as everybody (except for the TO, remarkably) expected it to.

There are plenty of tournaments showing that 3 stock is fine for tournaments as long as they are organised well. For those organising 3 stock tournaments I strongly advise you to limit the number of bo5 sets played (winners/losers/grand finals only). 2 stock pools is also a good idea.

As for the comparisons to Brawl: I personally think reducing the stock count (or the stage list) is taking a step backwards however Smash 4 in it's current state is already many times larger than Brawl ever was. Whilst an extra stock doesn't add that much run time to a tournament it does in fact make a measurable (if small) difference and that is something that must be considered when running large events. [Opinion Warning] I feel as though most people prefer to play 3 stock (and 3 stock is probably "better" for the game in that respect) making the primary reasons for 2 stock viewer satisfaction and time constraints. Time constraints can be worked around but if people want to watch 2 stock and play 3 stock then there has to be decisions made about what is best going forward.

n.b. the majority of tournaments may run 2 stock at the moment but that doesn't mean it's preferred to 3 stock. We see a lot of 2 stock because the tournaments most likely to run it are the two types of tournaments that have the biggest time constraints: cheap weeklies that go late on weeknights and super-majors. Regional differences and streaming also seems to play a part, bigger streams (in FL, MDVA, Cali) tend to run 2 stock tournaments every single week in front of large audiences whilst tournaments that don't have the online presence that S@X or the Foundry have often run 3 stock and go comparatively unnoticed. From what I've seen, it seems Canada and Australia are both generally leaning towards 3 stock tournaments.

I don't really agree with using equipment, but saying equipment is completely broken is stupid. Every character has access to those "broken" equipment, unlike customs, where "broken" customs can only be accessed by a select few characters, thus making the equipment not broken (see: The Incredibles). So, technically, wouldn't equipment be just as, if not less, broken than customs?

Not every character can use the same equipment. Most of them are character specific, IIRC only the badges are available for every character to use.

Edit: just judging by the title this would initially look like a ****ty reddit thread but on the whole it was a better read than that MIOM article.

 

[Skarfelt]

Idk why people keep comparing this game's ruleset to Brawl. This game is not Brawl. It's the same as "well Delfino and Halberd were fine in Brawl" - they really weren't but the game lacked stages, really. As for 2 stock vs 3 stock, Brawl is irrelevant - Smash 4 can be faster, it can be slower.

The biggest problem 3 stock faces is the fact the community settled on 2 stock with APEX. 3 stock naturally takes longer than 2 stock, even by a tiny bit, so people are likely to think 3 stock takes way longer.

Also, as Smash 4 is currently (somehow) the biggest Smash scene globally, tournaments are going to take longer than usual and, more importantly, there's going to be more new players. The two groups that hold up brackets are new players and campy players due to the relative difficulty in landing KOs - this is true of any game. Couple this with the game's mechanics encouraging defensive play that new players will find hard to punish, you have pools that can take a loooong time. I've personally sat and watched Melee best of 3s in Ireland take over 20 minutes as both players just miss every punish or opportunity. The top level is likely to not notice much of a difference in 3 stocks (outside of Pac Man players which is another totally real problem I'd rather discuss another day) but pools can become much, much slower.

So the obvious solution is 2 stock for pools, 3 stock for bracket... but I don't really think cutting the ruleset into two segments and potentially adding confusion is a good thing. Other fighting games have very, very easy rulesets to get your head round whereas in Smash we have RPG into stage striking and character counterpicking and stocks and time and SD rules (for some reason) and rules on timeout and and and... it's fine for us who have all been in the scene but it's pretty weird for someone looking in. When I play with a new player at a tourney, I normally just hit random instead of explaining how striking works because it saves time. I get that going "2 stock pools 3 stock bracket" is much easier to understand, it's also just another unnecessary complication when we could just... play 2 stock and not have to worry about anything.

Also, as an aside, if you're running Smash 4 events just for Smash 4, that's fine - time should never really be a concern, anyway. If you're running Smash 4 alongside Melee or any other fighting game, and you're playing 3 stock, you run a huge risk of Smash 4 lagging behind if your players are taking 8 minutes to timeout.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

After seeing all of the anti-customs hype on twitter, I really hope that post-EVO, no matter what happens, everyone doesn't just neglect the customs meta altogether.

I'd much rather see a balance between the two, rather than one being dropped over the other

 

[Ansou]

After seeing all of the anti-customs hype on twitter, I really hope that post-EVO, no matter what happens, everyone doesn't just neglect the customs meta altogether.

I'd much rather see a balance between the two, rather than one being dropped over the other

This isn't specifically directed against you, but why on earth are people discussing rules on Twitter? Isn't it just a really bad platform for this kind of things? Opinions are just scattered all around. I know that there are hashtags, but I have not seen people use them efficiently. It would be so much better if those who have an opinion on the matter would just come here instead and argue. When I go to my Twitter (which I don't do very often) I expect to see the latest happenings from a multitude of sources. When I go to Smashboards, I expect to see things related to Smash. If I go to this specific thread, I expect to see a discussion regarding which rules we should use in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

 

[A_Kae]

This isn't specifically directed against you, but why on earth are people discussing rules on Twitter? Isn't it just a really bad platform for this kind of things? Opinions are just scattered all around. I know that there are hashtags, but I have not seen people use them efficiently. It would be so much better if those who have an opinion on the matter would just come here instead and argue. When I go to my Twitter (which I don't do very often) I expect to see the latest happenings from a multitude of sources. When I go to Smashboards, I expect to see things related to Smash. If I go to this specific thread, I expect to see a discussion regarding which rules we should use in Super Smash Bros. for Wii U.

Twitter is just a terrible platform for meaningful discussion in general.

Just that sentence is half of the max characters. (74/140)

 

[Kaladin]

"The FC day two schedule moved along at a snail’s pace in part because the inexplicable decision to run three stock Smash 4 caused delays, which were further amplified by the queueing up of multiple stream matches and the excessive number of game changeovers. PSA to all TOs, please ignore the vocal, entitled, never-ran-a-tourney-before social media monsters that argue for a three stock Smash 4 ruleset. Stick to the proven two stock ruleset so you can finish the tourney at a reasonable hour."

From Jugglguy here. So.... discuss?

This would take a bit of doing, but I think we should try to actually get some imperical data. Get some willing TOs together, obviously, and have them survey everyone at the tournament. Nothing super extensive, just things like how enjoyable were your matches, do you feel like the tourney took too long (if smash is being run along side other FGs ask them if smash was intrusive), etc. Do that in sevral different regions, several different tourneys, and see if there is any sort of direct correlation between a number of stocks/best of and how pissed off people are at smash.

 

[MajorMajora]

Okay, so I don't really want to be that guy (again), but I thought about it and I have some positive opinions on custom equipment.

Now I don't pretend to know all the issues (I certainly know some though), but I really think if we get around some of the worse stuff, then man custom equipment would be hype.

Many of the arguments that I've heard mostly come down to that it would change smash too much, and in a way I have to agree. This would never get off the ground as anything more than a side event, but the ways it changes aren't bad for the most part.

Some of the things are rather positive. If both players know what equipment the other one has, while the set can't be outright practiced against, the effects of all equipment can be predicted. The effects will be wildly varied, but variation adds a lot to the meta game if none of it is broken (I'll get to this later), and the having to learn on the fly adds to the skill cap tremendously, which is also a good thing.

The problem of there not being standardization isn't really true. I haven't studied the game's code in detail by any means, but it does not take an extraordinary mind to deduce that there are limits to the strength of any one piece of equipment, and therefore to any 1 set as well. It'll be hard to achieve this, sure, but that really just makes things interesting. The degree to which any 2 people who grind for equipment the same amount of time differ in strength is probably a good deal less significant than plenty of the differences between characters in the tier lists, which we already accept. Not to mention it makes a sort of fun texture show up in the scene. Different people have different equipment, and some of the stronger ones might be special 'signature weapons' of certain players in an almost cheesy shonen-anime like way. A whole bunch of stupid fun without being horribly unfair. Skill will, in the end, triumph, but there's a whole bunch of hype, dumb fun that goes a long with it. Awesome Side event.

About broken things and what not, broken special effects can be banned. I mean, it feels wrong, but it's the lesser of 2 evils. And for circle camping, there can be things like caps on how fast a custom set can be. There can also be stages custom made that prevent circle camping on them (this could be a perfect use of the custom stage feature and the current custom stage project). And I'm sure there are other things, but I guess the point is that there are work around. Will any of this happen within in the next couple months? Not a chance. But 3 years from now this getting implemented? Sounds like it'd be awesome to me.

Oh, and a couple last thoughts I had on logistics. There is a method I came up with that could solve some issues. First, it would be that all matches have short time and a lat of stocks, let's just say 4 minute 4 stocks (pulled it out of my ass, not necessarily the best one). Is there a match that would normally go super fast? Well, it now takes 4 whole stocks before it ends, reducing variance. A match that would take forever? It ends at a reasonable time. And we have the rules in place for this to work. Time out rules already dictate that the person who took the most stocks/dealt the most damage wins, so it's still pretty fair either way.

And another idea is that, at the beginning of each set, players take their 3ds and upload X sets (lets just say 4 sets) each, distributed among any number of characters they want. This is either done double blind or in some sort of draft order. Then, each player may only pick from those sets for the set. Your choices will, of course, be based on what the opponent has, but it keeps things reasonable and keeps counter picks from being too polarizing, in addition to adding a lot of strategy. Additionally, it front loads all of the set loading, so there's no going back mid set to load a new set. I can imagine the last 2 slots in AA's custom move project can be used for this, so you can safely use all of the same consoles you use for singles and doubles for custom equipment matches.

Now, once again, I don't have all the answers, and I understand not all the answers will be easy to find, but man if we do find them this would be so much fun. I'd tune in for equipment streams, that's for sure.

 

[Ansou]

A whole bunch of stupid fun without being horribly unfair. Skill will, in the end, triumph, but there's a whole bunch of hype, dumb fun that goes a long with it. Awesome Side event.

This does seem like a very fun idea actually. Equipments will and should never be the competitive standard for different reasons, but a side event like this sounds interesting.

 

[Illuminose]

Having to load sets every match is a huge logistical bottleneck in itself, outside of the obvious competitive issues. You have to place so many different specific restrictions on equipment that it's just not worth the trouble of having it in the first place.

As far as what people have been saying about stocks, the biggest issue with 3 stock imo is that it limits how many bo5 sets we can have by nature (3 stock takes rather significantly longer, this is not avoidable). I'd rather see more bo5 sets than see 3 stock in tournaments.

 

[Kaladin]

Okay, so I don't really want to be that guy (again), but I thought about it and I have some positive opinions on custom equipment.

Now I don't pretend to know all the issues (I certainly know some though), but I really think if we get around some of the worse stuff, then man custom equipment would be hype.

Many of the arguments that I've heard mostly come down to that it would change smash too much, and in a way I have to agree. This would never get off the ground as anything more than a side event, but the ways it changes aren't bad for the most part.

Some of the things are rather positive. If both players know what equipment the other one has, while the set can't be outright practiced against, the effects of all equipment can be predicted. The effects will be wildly varied, but variation adds a lot to the meta game if none of it is broken (I'll get to this later), and the having to learn on the fly adds to the skill cap tremendously, which is also a good thing.

The problem of there not being standardization isn't really true. I haven't studied the game's code in detail by any means, but it does not take an extraordinary mind to deduce that there are limits to the strength of any one piece of equipment, and therefore to any 1 set as well. It'll be hard to achieve this, sure, but that really just makes things interesting. The degree to which any 2 people who grind for equipment the same amount of time differ in strength is probably a good deal less significant than plenty of the differences between characters in the tier lists, which we already accept. Not to mention it makes a sort of fun texture show up in the scene. Different people have different equipment, and some of the stronger ones might be special 'signature weapons' of certain players in an almost cheesy shonen-anime like way. A whole bunch of stupid fun without being horribly unfair. Skill will, in the end, triumph, but there's a whole bunch of hype, dumb fun that goes a long with it. Awesome Side event.

About broken things and what not, broken special effects can be banned. I mean, it feels wrong, but it's the lesser of 2 evils. And for circle camping, there can be things like caps on how fast a custom set can be. There can also be stages custom made that prevent circle camping on them (this could be a perfect use of the custom stage feature and the current custom stage project). And I'm sure there are other things, but I guess the point is that there are work around. Will any of this happen within in the next couple months? Not a chance. But 3 years from now this getting implemented? Sounds like it'd be awesome to me.

Oh, and a couple last thoughts I had on logistics. There is a method I came up with that could solve some issues. First, it would be that all matches have short time and a lat of stocks, let's just say 4 minute 4 stocks (pulled it out of my ***, not necessarily the best one). Is there a match that would normally go super fast? Well, it now takes 4 whole stocks before it ends, reducing variance. A match that would take forever? It ends at a reasonable time. And we have the rules in place for this to work. Time out rules already dictate that the person who took the most stocks/dealt the most damage wins, so it's still pretty fair either way.

And another idea is that, at the beginning of each set, players take their 3ds and upload X sets (lets just say 4 sets) each, distributed among any number of characters they want. This is either done double blind or in some sort of draft order. Then, each player may only pick from those sets for the set. Your choices will, of course, be based on what the opponent has, but it keeps things reasonable and keeps counter picks from being too polarizing, in addition to adding a lot of strategy. Additionally, it front loads all of the set loading, so there's no going back mid set to load a new set. I can imagine the last 2 slots in AA's custom move project can be used for this, so you can safely use all of the same consoles you use for singles and doubles for custom equipment matches.

Now, once again, I don't have all the answers, and I understand not all the answers will be easy to find, but man if we do find them this would be so much fun. I'd tune in for equipment streams, that's for sure.

If we can get an Amiibo side event first, this would be hype as hell.

 

[MajorMajora]

Having to load sets every match is a huge logistical bottleneck in itself, outside of the obvious competitive issues. You have to place so many different specific restrictions on equipment that it's just not worth the trouble of having it in the first place.

As far as what people have been saying about stocks, the biggest issue with 3 stock imo is that it limits how many bo5 sets we can have by nature (3 stock takes rather significantly longer, this is not avoidable). I'd rather see more bo5 sets than see 3 stock in tournaments.

Well, about the equipment, I think my idea of high stock low time would actually free up time logistically (lowering the worst case scenario of time) which could leave an extra minute or so for downloading the sets. And honestly since most of the hard work comes from setting up the rules in the first place rather than maintaining them, I don't think it's too bad.

Oh, yeah, and @ Kaladin Amiibo doubles would be hype.

 

[Zelder]

I awoke from a dream with a fright of the terrifying future of the Smash4 meta: 2 stocks, 6 minutes, no customs. And it chilled me to the bone.

 

[Christian Anderson]

This is in regards to custom moves and the various "problems" they have. It's not really the customs themselves it's actually our ruleset. We should implement some rules to make sure the customs meta doesn't become boring. Like say:

Banning the usage of infinites

Classifying the repeated usage of attacks and camping as stallling(at least after a certain duration of time.)

I know this wouldn't be perfect, but it's all I can think of seeing as customs haven't received a direct nerf or buff.

 

[Thinkaman]

Rules have to be discrete and enforceable. (This can be more or less summarized to "non-subjective" in 99% of case.)

You can't have a rule banning repeated attacks or inputs.

 

[Ulevo]

"The FC day two schedule moved along at a snail’s pace in part because the inexplicable decision to run three stock Smash 4 caused delays, which were further amplified by the queueing up of multiple stream matches and the excessive number of game changeovers. PSA to all TOs, please ignore the vocal, entitled, never-ran-a-tourney-before social media monsters that argue for a three stock Smash 4 ruleset. Stick to the proven two stock ruleset so you can finish the tourney at a reasonable hour."

From Jugglguy here. So.... discuss?

There's nothing really to discuss.

3 Stocks is too long. I enjoy playing matches at a tournament, not running a marathon. While it is true that the individual matches may or may not extend themselves beyond the 2 Stock format, the reality is it pushes the entire tournament back. Pools take longer, bracket takes longer.

To those of you who rebuttal with the point that the tournament will run fine if the event is organized properly. These two factors are independent of each other. Yes, a tournament can be run swiftly with an organizer scheduling properly and being on top of priorities, but only to the degree in which the length of the pool and bracket matches allow him. This is the factor that, outside of tournament policy, you cannot control.

Let's do some math on this to illustrate why this is a problem. I have seen 3 Stock extend matches several minutes, but I will ignore that in favour of being generous. Lets assume that in a standard 64 man tournament, double elimination, with pools to seed, each match takes 20 seconds longer. This is a very generous average.

Let's assume there are 16 set ups for bracket matches, which is very reasonable yet highly unlikely. Pools could then be divided in to groups of 8 players in order to achieve a 32 man bracket with little wait time between games.

Each 8 player pool will need to play a total of 56 sets, 8*7. Multiply that by 8 groups of pools to get your seeding, and we have 448 sets. Let's assume that they all go 2-0, which is also very generous.

That's 896 games. If you add 20 seconds to 896 games, that means that you have roughly an additional 299 minutes added to your tournament time, or nearly 5 hours.

That is just for pools.

This does not include bracket, this does not include money matches or friendlies that will likely be running the same tournament rules, this does not include game 3's, this does not include best 3/5's, this does not include those matches where someone feels the need to time you out.

 

[MajorMajora]

@ Ulevo Ummm, aren't different pools run simultaneously? so divide that 5 hours you have by 8. You get... 37 and 1/2 minutes. Not to mention I'd be surprised if different sets within a single pool weren't run simultaneously.

Just a disclamimer here, I'm neither a TO nor am I an atendee at any tourneys, I'm just speaking off of what I assume makes sense, so keep that in mind.

So if all pools were run simultaneously, and we ran the maximum number of sets at a time per pool, it would take the time it takes for 14 sets to be played for all of pools to be finished. If we assume worst case scenario, that's an additional 2 minutes per game and 3 games per set. That adds 2x14x3 minutes to your time. That's an additional 84 minutes for pools, or 1 hour and 24 minutes, assuming worst case scenario. So probably less than an hour added.

Of course, this is only possible if you have 32 consoles handy. If you have 1 console handy, it'll take an additional 32 times 84 minutes, assuming worst case scenario, or 2688 minutes, or 44.8 hours. However, this probably means that your tourney was going to take several days to run in the first place. you can calculate the number of additional hours it'll take to add 3 stock 8 minute from 2 stock 6 minute, assuming worst case scenario, with the equation:

f(n)=44.8/n where n=the number of consoles that can run simultaneously. Of course, there are logistics involved where a pool will have some stragglers and not all consoles are being used at the same time necessarily, but that is more than counterbalanced by the fact that not every match will go to time. So you can expect your tournament to take an amount of extra time less than or equal to f(n).

Keep in mind, your projected time is already 6 minutes per game, or 3xf(n), so you could probably skip the middle man by just multiplying your current projected time by 4/3 and now I feel like an idiot for having written all that down.

Not saying this supports either side, just what I got from the math.

 

[Ulevo]

@ MajorMajora

That is fair, and I did not account for that in the calculation. That being said, 20 seconds for an additional stock not realistic. I would put that number more accurately at 90 seconds, or a minute and a half, which is three and a half times more time. Within my example, that stills takes our projected time at 37 minutes 30 seconds to roughly 2 hours 11 minutes.

And again, this is without games going to game 3, money match or friendly interruptions, et cetera.

 

[MajorMajora]

@ MajorMajora

That is fair, and I did not account for that in the calculation. That being said, 20 seconds for an additional stock not realistic. I would put that number more accurately at 90 seconds, or a minute and a half, which is three and a half times more time. Within my example, that stills takes our projected time at 37 minutes 30 seconds to roughly 2 hours 11 minutes.

And again, this is without games going to game 3, money match or friendly interruptions, et cetera.

Yeah, I tried to take that into account with the rest of my post. What do you think of that? And about how many console are at the average local?

 

[Ulevo]

Yeah, I tried to take that into account with the rest of my post. What do you think of that? And about how many console are at the average local?

It is going to vary from local to local, but in my experience 8-12.

 

[Thinkaman]

Just so we're all 100% clear on what the status quo is, we are talking about de facto banning Palutena and WFT because people on twitter think Villager and DK, though they don't win events, are annoying.

This is literally the world we live in.

 

[webbedspace]

And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

 

[Jaxas]

And there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth.

...wow, that actually hurts to read.

Where did all this customs hate come from, anyways? Has it basically just sprung up because some Top Players have said they're not a fan, or is there an actual reason?

 

[Pazx]

uh

maybe people don't like playing with customs on

i'm all for them but the supporters of customs can be pretty dense sometimes

 

[ParanoidDrone]

uh

maybe people don't like playing with customs on

i'm all for them but the supporters of customs can be pretty dense sometimes

It's more that we're all wondering why they're picking now, just before EVO, to speak up. The customs list was finalized in March, it's not like it's ever been a secret.

 

[Illuminose]

It's more that we're all wondering why they're picking now, just before EVO, to speak up. The customs list was finalized in March, it's not like it's ever been a secret.

More time for the metagame to develop, basically. Took a while to fully understand how customs affect the metagame.

 

[NickRiddle]

Just so we're all 100% clear on what the status quo is, we are talking about de facto banning Palutena and WFT because people on twitter think Villager and DK, though they don't win events, are annoying.

This is literally the world we live in.

I want to ban customs because my region doesn't like them; it has nothing to do with gusty ledges.

 

[19_]

Just so we're all 100% clear on what the status quo is, we are talking about de facto banning Palutena and WFT because people on twitter think Villager and DK, though they don't win events, are annoying.

This is literally the world we live in.

Whatever. I honestly think people just want a break from customs at the moment. Let them have it. Custom moves did not die before evo they wont die after. This hiatus will only last till people become interested in them again. Not to mention a lot of people will want to play characters like Palutena, WFT and Mii Brawller again without being trash. Especially with Mii Brawller because the more his 2222 set gets bannned when customs are off the more relevant it is to say characters are getting banned for no reason.

 

[Ghostbone]

I want to ban customs because my region doesn't like them; it has nothing to do with gusty ledges.

What's your opinion on the legality/restrictions on miis in a customs off environment?

 

[NickRiddle]

What's your opinion on the legality/restrictions on miis in a customs off environment?

Stock size, 1111 2222 3333
Anything more than that would, IMO, be silly

 

[oldkingcroz]

Yeah, @ NickRiddle , locals' rules should always be based on what the local people think is best. But remember: some local rules can be a tad ignorant to the game. Only playing on Omega stages, playing X stock, and using customs on/off, all benifit certain players at the expense of others. So be weary, of the consequences of your/ your community's action, and who you affect.

A big portion of the people in [my state] NM are for customs. The custom users aren't any "better" than the non-custom users and vice versa. And most people are pretty happy with living in unison with each other. Our best players can win with customs on or off, and that's how it is most places. It's not like customs DK or Palutina become better than the top tiers- but they merely become [more] viable with customs on.
We've got Marths, Palutinas, Rosalinas, Falcons, Mega Mans, Brawlers, etc who all use customs- and as it turns out- these players have been playing Smash for YEARS. Most of them are PM players. The argument that customs instantly make you OP is rather silly, because you still need to be a good player in customs in order to win. It's not like customs-on tourneys are won by drawing names out of a hat. That's just plain silly; yet, I still see the argument being made. Smash requires practice, believe it or not, and practicing against customs in custom-on tournaments will help you understand the game more and make you a more versatile player (who can combat certain strong customs in the future).

So- in customs-on I play Ike, Kirby, and Toon Link. It's not like I am instantly winning tournaments or crushing 1/1/1/1 players. I still do so-so, at the game and usually get 20th to 10th at the 50+ people locals. The characters still play the same, but just Ike has a side B that has 3 frames less startup, but goes less far, and Kirby jumps to inhale my opponent. It's still Ike and Kirby, and 90% of my game plays extremely similar to how I play in customs off (Ike is even more complex with his windbox and paralyzing counter, and requires much more practice to master). And these charcters are argued to have some of the best customs in the game... And, yet, they still play strikingly similarly to vanilla Ike/ Kirby. Why? Because they are the same character, have the same physics, same strategies, almost same attacks, but are just a little bit subjectively better.

 

[John12346]

Stock size, 1111 2222 3333
Anything more than that would, IMO, be silly

I don't know, it seems like a really arbitrary restriction.

I understand the stock size deal because if there was a standard height/weight other than default for that you may encounter people who did nothing to prepare the Miis in Mii Maker beforehand and that'd end up wasting time. But the special moves are just there all the time, y'know...?

With customs off Miis still have access to all combinations of their special moves, so why not, right?