Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[smashbro29]

Why did you use the Omega (Ω) symbol upside down?

It's cute!

Munich has 13 and we do just fine. It's a lot easier than you might think, and once your player base gets used to it, it goes really fast. The main issue with so few starters is that it throws a huge advantage to characters who favor Flat+Plat stages with no changes or transitions.

I'm online a lot. 13 is too much. Time is a factor. 5 sounds great.

 

[ぱみゅ]

13 isn't too much, specially because 90% of the time people will just agree to Smashville.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

13 isn't too much, specially because 90% of the time people will just agree to Smashville.

Ugh, don't remind me. I'm getting tired of it being the stage of choice for half the matches I see on stream.

What really confuses me is that it's a really good stage for Sheik and people still take her there voluntarily. Like, really?

 

[ぱみゅ]

They want to feel the challenge.



So I'll make a tournament next April 5th.
I decided on 2-stocks, 6 minutes because I have no idea how many setups I'll have. I'm guessing not many.
I also decided Customs because reasons. People at the beginning had a bit of resistance against them, but it will apparently be made anyway.
Wish me luck!

 

[JimmyTheCaterpillar]

Ugh, don't remind me. I'm getting tired of it being the stage of choice for half the matches I see on stream.

What really confuses me is that it's a really good stage for Sheik and people still take her there voluntarily. Like, really?

Because it's just kind of the stage everyone is used to for some reason.

Personally, I dislike it and have always been a Delfino man if I must counterpick. I rarely choose Smashville BECAUSE everyone else picks it. Everyone is used to it. If you take away the comfort zone, that's a bit of the battle already.

 

[smashbro29]

13 isn't too much, specially because 90% of the time people will just agree to Smashville.

And for those that don't? I saw a tournament on stream use the 13 starter system, it took forever.

 

[BestTeaMaker]

It's not hard to have a 13 stage list. It helps to have a visual thing to help players. What I do is post the stagelist with an erasable marker. The players can then physically ban stages using the marker.

Also, what with the ubiquity of smartphones, you can create an app to do the same thing as above.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You can also unlock all the stages (yes, even Flat Zone X and Pac-Land) and use the random stage select screen as a helpful visual indicator.

 

[ぱみゅ]

And for those that don't? I saw a tournament on stream use the 13 starter system, it took forever.

It shouldn't take that long if people knew what they're looking for.
Maybe each strike could take like, 10 seconds? More than that and it's maybe distraction, indecision, ignorance or worse, sheer stalling.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It shouldn't take that long if people knew what they're looking for.
Maybe each strike could take like, 10 seconds? More than that and it's maybe distraction, indecision, ignorance or worse, sheer stalling.

First sentence is true. You should already know what stages your own character doesn't want, so those are easy strikes. The only variable left is what stages the opponent's character likes, which may or may not be a known thing to you. If it is, great, strike those too (or first if it's a greater priority for whatever reason), but if it's not known then oh well, deal with it and take a guess. Or maybe continue striking your own disliked stages.

 

[DunnoBro]

So with the recent fear of stalling from customs, and the previous decisions made to avoid it... I think a simple ledge-grab limit should be applied for EVO and other custom tournaments.

Villager actually isn't the only one capable of ledge-stalling, customs or no, it's just he's the easiest to do it with and I guess certain players would rather troll than play to win.

Default lucario can do it to some slower movement chars on bigger stages by just going ledge to ledge. And some places ban kongo jungle cause jigglypuff and maybe kirby/mk can stall infinitely with the barrel...

I think considering the barrel a ledge (since it essentially is) would qualm fears of players about timeouts there.

Since there's less stocks and overall less safe ledge to hang around within general play, I think a LGL of 10 per stock should be the minimum we consider. With 15 the maximum.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Deciding a LGL is quite diffcult. There is no way (at least this early) to tell how many are too much, how many can some characters get accidentally although they do not attempt to stall.

Also, if any limit is implemented, it should be something it can be easily told appart, without anyone being behind the players counting the times they land on a barrel.
That's why the limit is on Ledge Grabs, there is a count made by the game itself at the end of the game, where players can check if it was passed or not.

 

[DunnoBro]

Deciding a LGL is quite diffcult. There is no way (at least this early) to tell how many are too much, how many can some characters get accidentally although they do not attempt to stall.

Also, if any limit is implemented, it should be something it can be easily told appart, without anyone being behind the players counting the times they land on a barrel.
That's why the limit is on Ledge Grabs, there is a count made by the game itself at the end of the game, where players can check if it was passed or not.

Well remember, a LGL is generally only implemented in the event of a timeout. Also to a certain point, there should be no amount of "accidental" grabs.

And Kongo is only bannable due to the stalling ability, generally just the rule being in place prevents it from happening. Though a specific rule for Kongo which states more than 3 simultaneous uses is considered "Stalling" could work too.

 

[popsofctown]

Or we could, yknow, not nerf non-SS tier characters, nor make up rules with massive enforcement issues just to keep one stage.

 

[DunnoBro]

Or we could, yknow, not nerf non-SS tier characters, nor make up rules with massive enforcement issues just to keep one stage.

There really aren't that many stages to begin with though. And removing infinite, unstoppable stalling on one stage really isn't really what I'd call a "nerf"

I'd rather discuss ways to make stages legal than just write them off. I we can't come up with one,

But Kongo's really a tangent to my main point about LGL in general, so we can revisit the barrel later.

 

[popsofctown]

You don't ban strategies that annoy you, you ban strategies that are broken (or annoy absolutely every single person, which is only related to some preferential ruleset choices like banning food on low).

No one has broken ledge stalling, and it's incredibly doubtful anyone can.

 

[DunnoBro]

You don't ban strategies that annoy you, you ban strategies that are broken (or annoy absolutely every single person, which is only related to some preferential ruleset choices like banning food on low).

No one has broken ledge stalling, and it's incredibly doubtful anyone can.

If it isn't broken, then there should be no issue implementing a LGL. It only prevents the concept of broken from coming to fruition, a proper LGL should have no effect on standard gameplay.

It's also irrefutable that the ledgestalling is a usable tactic in some matchups, we never considered ledgestalling a legitimate strategy before in other smash games, not sure why we would now.

 

[popsofctown]

Ledge stalling is a legitimate strategy. Why would it not be a legitimate strategy?

Ledgestalling efforts in Brawl were efforts to nerf the game's SS tier character. That wasn't really hard to figure out with the inane "35 ledge grabs for MK, 50 for everyone else" rule.

 

[smashbro29]

The less we have to ban behavior the better. Banning behavior always rubs me the wrong way and I hate how quick people are to suggest it. With Meta Knight in Brawl I get it, it is unbeatable Brawl was a mess of a game that people clung to for no good reason other than it being new so they cut and restricted until their faces turned blue to make something even halfway playable in a competitive setting.

"Stalling" is done in every fighter. Smash shouldn't be any different in that regard, I'm sorry if that's boring to you but that's the game you agreed to play and if it nets someone a win consistently then you need to either get better or do what they do.

 

[Rhubarbo]

"Stalling" is done in every fighter. Smash shouldn't be any different in that regard, I'm sorry if that's boring to you but that's the game you agreed to play and if it nets someone a win consistently then you need to either get better or do what they do.

Except the brand of stalling in Smash Bros. is usually non-interactive, easy rubbish.

 

[smashbro29]

Except the brand of stalling in Smash Bros. is usually non-interactive, easy rubbish.

Played Sonic vs mac and jumped around on platforms for a while to stall.

It was pretty interactive.

Obviously if it's on pilot wings and other characters literally cannot get under the plane that's unfair but on all of the legal stages there is no real "stalling".

 

[19_]

I just saw this post in the character impressions thread and I think it summarizes alot of the recent problems this community has been experiencing.

I wrote elsewhere (reddit of all places), but I'm starting to get this feeling in my gut that the negative part of the community is simply sick of learning new things and wants to push to a point where they know every match-up by heart so they can confirm who wins and precisely why. This gut feeling started with the whole "Melee community split", but several things are making me feel like this feeling is warranted. Specificly, in spite of the Heavy Skull Bash, many other factors made Pikachu seem like a valid Diddy counter, and yet I've rarely seen a Pikachu/Diddy MU. I've seen characters give up after the first round and switch to Diddy. Because Diddy is safe. Diddy is known to be safe. We learned that already, so why learn anything beyond that when he's going to win the cold, hard $$$?

Is it a valid thing to say, that people may simply be sick of learning how to play the game? That people want an easy way to win, and putting an obstacle in their way makes them upset that they need to learn something new?

Even without customs in consideration, I feel the same way about this. Customs are simply a different lens to see through, and I see people stagnating the game before learning it. People want to push the meta and let the meta evolve, and they cite the meta as being harmed by customs. But is it harmed by customs, or by learning? Why should I learn when I can win with Diddy Kong instead? That's how you win, after all. That's how they always will.

I know that it is usually hard to get rulesets changed when they a set in stone, but I'm starting to see the reason why this is the case. Customs have caused quite a backlash due to there introduction on the Wii U, but why did they have to be introduced in the first place? People were clearly using customs commonly enough in the 3ds era, and yes I know there was a hiatus due to the transfer issue. That was because of the lack of support.

I think this is what happens when do not allow a new game to breath. The higher members of the community did not take the time to discover what the game had and rushed it into the spotlight based on rules from previous games (apex's smash 4 stagelist was brawl's with two stages switched and two less starters). They did such a thing such a thing because they wanted money. The community leaders were naive that there actions would cause this kind of damage. They completely forgot about the liberal players and return now have to deal with consequences: EVO.

Top players like Zero suddenly have ANOTHER obstacle to deal with: customs, and yes I guess it is a john but I think there is more to it than that. With all these constant rule changes it is taking way longer for smash 4's meta to stabilize than it should. It is one thing if a player has to adapt to something in a stable meta, it another thing if the rules are constantly being changed. Think about it, we would have a lot less complaining if such discussions were had earlier.

If EVO is a disaster do not blame the liberal players who just wanted customs to be legal again, we just recently had a say in this. We were ignored so we made things happen. I don't believe this incompetence in regards of the community organizers, they just were not paying attention. This is new for the smash community as a whole due to the monetization of the scene, and I also don't think any smash game had a scene this big at the beginning of it's lifespan.

I'm beginning to think a backroom or something to that extent should be made sooner rather than later.

 

[Judo777]

Wait, we are talking about a LGL in this game??? How do you not automatically die when you regrab the ledge a second time? You have no invincibility after the first grab, so ledge stalling shouldn't be NEAR the factor it was in Brawl.

I have seen villagers ledge stalling tactics first hand, but I believe with proper practice it can be overcome and result in villager just losing his stock with a single read. Also Villager does it better than anyone else by quite a bit.

Ledge stalling in Brawl was SIGNIFICANTLY stronger due to regaining invincibility and characters being able to hang in the air for so long, not to mention there were tons of super high priority low lag aerials (almost non-existent in smash 4) in Brawl. And even after ALL of that ledge stalling was only a problem with one character. And a LGL was only implemented, because people just wanted to try super hard to not ban MK who was the only problem in the first place.

 

[Se7enSB]

I think customs shouldn't be legal.

1) They take far too long to unlock on Wii U. AmazingAmpharos made a thread on using a 3DS for custom setups but that's a really complicated thing to get used too and I don't think many people will carry a 3DS with all customs unlocked for a Wii U Tournament.

2) Matchups will dynamically change. Due to 4 specials, each with 3 different variations for 2 characters in 1v1 or 4 in 2v2 the game will get REALLY complicated.

3) Certain specials are being banned. I think all of them should be banned if we are going as far as banning certain ones.

Let's imagine someone new is attending a tournament. They have to learn that there are 8 loadouts, well if their load out isn't available they have to delete one and make a new one. You have to tell them which customs are banned, they will ask more than one time.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think customs shouldn't be legal.

1) They take far too long to unlock on Wii U. AmazingAmpharos made a thread on using a 3DS for custom setups but that's a really complicated thing to get used too and I don't think many people will carry a 3DS with all customs unlocked for a Wii U Tournament.

If the TOs aren't equipped for a customs tournament with said single 3ds, then they don't need to hold a customs tournament.

2) Matchups will dynamically change. Due to 4 specials, each with 3 different variations for 2 characters in 1v1 or 4 in 2v2 the game will get REALLY complicated.

>matchups change
>complicated

Opinion discarded.

3) Certain specials are being banned. I think all of them should be banned if we are going as far as banning certain ones.

1: No they're not.
2: Wut. "Well one member got banned so we should ban all of them"

The guilt by association fallacy is in my opinion the most dangerous source of ignorance in the history of mankind. Fortunately here it's more silly than dangerous.

 

[thehard]

#EVO2015 Melee and S4 Rules

@EvilMrWizard S4 starters are BF, FD, & Smashville.

Everything else is a cp. #SmashBros pic.twitter.com/6DFbeLUOI6

— D1 (@xD1x) March 25, 2015

erm...

 

[19_]

#EVO2015 Melee and S4 Rules

@EvilMrWizard S4 starters are BF, FD, & Smashville.

Everything else is a cp. #SmashBros pic.twitter.com/6DFbeLUOI6

— D1 (@xD1x) March 25, 2015

erm...

starter / counterpick shenanigans aside from d1 I am SO happy we have 2 stocks 6 minutes

 

[cot(θ)]

The Evo ruleset needs to specify whether custom moves are picked at the same time the character is picked, or after both players have picked their characters. It's not OK to leave it ambiguous.

 

[thehard]

The Evo ruleset needs to specify whether custom moves are picked at the same time the character is picked, or after both players have picked their characters. It's not OK to leave it ambiguous.

What works best?

 

[DunnoBro]

Characters locked first, then customs. Customs should always be chosen last, after stages and characters are locked.

Kind of defeats the purpose of "niche sets" if you can't choose to use them for certain stages/mus consistently.

It isn't really a big issue though, most players will want to play that way and choose their sets based on your character, not your set.

 

[J_the_Man]

Not a lot of specifics for that Smash 4 Wii U ruleset there, compared to the melee ruleset.

 

[cot(θ)]

Characters locked first, then customs. Customs should always be chosen last, after stages and characters are locked.

Kind of defeats the purpose of "niche sets" if you can't choose to use them for certain stages/mus consistently.

It isn't really a big issue though, most players will want to play that way and choose their sets based on your character, not your set.

I agree with this. It's bad enough that your opponent can force a bad matchup - there's no need to also deny you the tools to deal with that match-up as best you can.

However, it's more important that the rule is specified, regardless of which way is chosen.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So I'm not clear. Is EVO full list stage striking for smash 4 right now? I didn't expect that if it is, but it's a very pleasant surprise.

 

[thehard]

So I'm not clear. Is EVO full list stage striking for smash 4 right now? I didn't expect that if it is, but it's a very pleasant surprise.

I think it was @SmashCapps and @ ParanoidDrone that tweeted Wizard out asking for FLSS about a month ago and now we are here

 

[19_]

So I'm not clear. Is EVO full list stage striking for smash 4 right now? I didn't expect that if it is, but it's a very pleasant surprise.

I think it was @SmashCapps and @ ParanoidDrone that tweeted Wizard out asking for FLSS about a month ago and now we are here

I honestly don't believe it. When I see people outside of smashboards talking about it then I will believe it.

 

[Judo777]

I'm glad we have 2 large tournaments being held to give us at least some sample of the difference between customs on and off to see how the game will play out with different rules.

I just really wish, we had 2 more that did the same thing with 3 stocks 8 min, because goodness I hate 2 stocks. And I feel like 3 stocks hasn't been given much of a chance.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I honestly don't believe it. When I see people outside of smashboards talking about it then I will believe it.

As of last night, the EVO rules made no mention of starter or counterpick stages, it was just one big list.

 

[Pyr]

So, I've got a concern I haven't seen talk on... The random button in a customs format, or the "random" set in the customs list for a character. Any words on this? In customs on, Random applies random equipment and custom moves to a random character. In the random set in a characters list, it does the same thing, but for that specific character.

Someone will eventually pick random in a tournament setting. How should that be handled?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, I've got a concern I haven't seen talk on... The random button in a customs format, or the "random" set in the customs list for a character. Any words on this? In customs on, Random applies random equipment and custom moves to a random character. In the random set in a characters list, it does the same thing, but for that specific character.

Someone will eventually pick random in a tournament setting. How should that be handled?

I always assumed the random button would be banned. I guess at nationals like EVO they could just sell off all the equipment on every setup but that sounds like a massive pain. And I wouldn't dare ask people to delete them off their own donated setups for locals. (I assume people bring their setups to locals for use.)

 

[Pyr]

I always assumed the random button would be banned. I guess at nationals like EVO they could just sell off all the equipment on every setup but that sounds like a massive pain. And I wouldn't dare ask people to delete them off their own donated setups for locals. (I assume people bring their setups to locals for use.)

I would not either. Thanks to Ganon farming, I'm well over the 1500 different equipment mark. I've yet to find a way to mass-delete them all. I have to select each and every one I delete.

That said, I think the random equips can occur without having any equipment at all. I can't confirm because no way in hell am I erasing my file to see, but... Maybe make it a game loss if someone plays random?