Meta Competitive Smash Ruleset Discussion

[b2jammer]

With all of this talk about custom moves and Miis, I'm curious as to people's opinions about equipment. From what I get out of it (please enlighten me if I'm wrong), equipment is not very popular at all in tournaments, mostly due to how much more information and unpredictability it forces on the players.

One thing I like about equipment is how it can complement the playstyle of certain characters. As an example, I created a 1211 MK with -49/+50/+14, Air Defender, and Glider. MK was designed to overwhelm opponents - less so in 4 than Brawl, for sure - but his low air speed and somewhat high damage output makes it hard to chase opponents around. By increasing his air speed and reducing damage, this becomes much easier. However, he can still KO opponents with a well placed Uair, Bair, or DC.

For a compromise, I feel there should be multiple rulesets, one for defaults, one for custom moves and standard Miis, and one for custom moves, equipment, and all Miis. For the latter ruleset, the stock count should be one higher for two reasons. One is to let the players get used to each other's configurations, and also because custom matches tend to go faster due to the buffs they place on characters.

I'm not into the tournament scene as much as I maybe should be, but there's my two cents, anyway.

 

[Thinkaman]

With all of this talk about custom moves and Miis, I'm curious as to people's opinions about equipment. From what I get out of it (please enlighten me if I'm wrong), equipment is not very popular at all in tournaments, mostly due to how much more information and unpredictability it forces on the players.

One thing I like about equipment is how it can complement the playstyle of certain characters. As an example, I created a 1211 MK with -49/+50/+14, Air Defender, and Glider. MK was designed to overwhelm opponents - less so in 4 than Brawl, for sure - but his low air speed and somewhat high damage output makes it hard to chase opponents around. By increasing his air speed and reducing damage, this becomes much easier. However, he can still KO opponents with a well placed Uair, Bair, or DC.

For a compromise, I feel there should be multiple rulesets, one for defaults, one for custom moves and standard Miis, and one for custom moves, equipment, and all Miis. For the latter ruleset, the stock count should be one higher for two reasons. One is to let the players get used to each other's configurations, and also because custom matches tend to go faster due to the buffs they place on characters.

I'm not into the tournament scene as much as I maybe should be, but there's my two cents, anyway.

There are a multitude of problem, any of which is a show-stopper single-handedly.


It's flat out logistically impossible.

You make a MK with -49/+50/+14, Air Defender, and Glider? Great. How do you plan to put that on every console at a tourney? Not only would it take a prohibitive amount of time, but what equipment each setup has on it is random. You literally can't do it. (Contrast with custom moves, where everyone uses the same sets and making them takes seconds, not minutes.)

Not without a 3DS, which has its own issues for this. Using a 3DS for this purpose still takes tons of logistical tourney time, and also forces every player to have a 3DS and grind equipment in that version. (Unlike using a 3DS for custom moves, which is a one-and-done deal that only requires one handheld at an entire event)


Extreme variations in Attack and Defense cause match length to be hyper volatile.

The natural match time for a 3-stock game between 2 attack-maxed Little Macs or Ganondorfs could be around 30 seconds. It's basically 2-3 hits per stock.

The natural match time for a 3-stock game between 2 Defensive-focused Mega Mans or Villagers is probably going to be around 20-25 minutes.

To say nothing of Sonic, which brings us to...


Extreme variations in Speed effects stalling in many matchups.

The size and movement physics parameters of the characters are carefully calibrated such that, on stages suitable for 1v1, no character can avoid their opponent indefinitely. Stalling potential is limited and incurs risk. Even Ganondorf can corner Sonic--on every 1v1 stage.

Shattering this carefully constructed equilibrium with speed mods changes this. A sufficiently fast Sonic, Falcon, and Palutena can run away from several default-stat slow characters easily and indefinitely, even on FD.

You will also see things break down in this way if you try other things that mess with these factors such as Tiny Smash.


Extreme variations in equipment stats are impractical to train against.

It's daunting to have to train against 51 possible opponents. Custom moves further complicate things, but it's still reasonable. For example, custom moves on an opponent doesn't change how your moves hit or combo them.

But when you add variations to how hard moves hit, that is out the window. Your combo-%s and move behaviors are going to be radically difference based on the combination of attack and defense stats.

Speed adjustments are even worse; this changes the rules on what is punishable, what punishment options are available, and even what aerials auto-cancel or not. The entire game becomes less predictable and more unsafe. (More defensive.)


Many of the equipment effects are competitively degenerate.
Stalling: (heavily encourages or enables staling, or dramatically mitigates/skews possible harassment)

• All-around Trade-off
  
• Auto-Healer
• Countdown (sort of)
• Crouch Healer
  
• Nimble Dodger
  
• Perfect-Shield Helper
  
• Shield Exploder (especially with Perfect Shield Helper)
  
• Shield Healer
  
• Shield Reflector
  
• Shield Regenerator
  
• Vampire

Luck-based:

• Critical Hitter
  
• Shield Healer (iirc?)
  
• Vampire

Overpowered or Centralizing:

• Critical Hitter
• Desperate Attacker
  
• Desperate Immortal
  
• Desperate Speedster
  
• Home-Run Bat
  
• No-Flinch Smasher
  
• Picky Eater
  
• Quick Batter (w/ HRB)
  
• Vampire

Polarizing: (Affects certain matchups more than others excessively, degenerating things into rock-paper-scissors and requiring players to use a different equipment set for every matchup)

• Air Attacker
• Air Defender (best example: I would run this on every character in the game against Jigglypuff)
• Air Pinata
• Air Pushover
• All-around Trade-off
• Anchor Jump
• Antiglide
• Antileap
• Bob-omb (counters trade-off abilities)
• Double-Jump Boost
  
• Double-Jump Drag
  
• Escape Artist
  
• First Striker
  
• Glider
• Gluey Edge
• Hi-Jump
• Insult to Injury
  
• Item Hurler
  
• Item Lobber
  
• Item Pitcher
  
• Leaper
  
• Lo-Jump
  
• Meteor Master
  
• Moon Launcher
• No-Flinch Smasher
  
• Shield Exploder
• Shield Healer
• Shield Reflector
• Speed Skater
• Sprinter
• Thistle Jump
• Trade-off Attacker
• Trade-off Defender
• Trade-off Speedster
• Vampire

Irrelevant: (Essentially not applicable to competitive 1v1 play)

• Caloric Attacker
  
• Caloric Defender
  
• Caloric Immortal
  
• Caloric Powerhouse
  
• Caloric Speedster
• Countdown (sort of)
• Double Final Smasher
  
• Final Smash Healer
  
• Food Lover
  
• Item Shooter
  
• Pity Final Smasher
  
• Smash Ball Attractor
  
• Smash Ball Clinger
• Sudden Death Gambler
  
• Super Final Smasher

This is a huge % of the effects, much more than half. And of those that remain, the ones we COULD use, they tend to make this carefully-tuned game worse, not better; examples:

• Various Items (like Ray Gun)
• Unharmed [X]
• Safe Respawner
• Hyper Smasher
• Smooth Lander
• Speed Crasher

In conclusion, there are a dozen reasons why equipment is ill-suited to a competitive environment.

Take your pick!

 

[b2jammer]

Okay, that all makes sense. Thanks for the explanation. I guess it's also good to have it in one place so people like me don't have to keep asking.

 

[Reaperfan]

So I know I asked it a while back and some ideas got floated around, but after seeing it place third (so far) in this thread I feel urged to bring this question back up since I don't recally anything really getting resolved last time:

What do we do in the hypothetical situation where two players who prefer to use the Wii U Gamepad as their controller are set to play each other?

As far as I know, it's still only possible to use one Gamepad per system, but if you can't accommodate both you're putting one person at a disadvantage. Even if you say they both have to use a different controller as a sort of "equal disadvantage" that still doesn't feel right...

 

[Thinkaman]

The Gamepad is almost always disallowed as a controller.

In practice it's a philosophical point, since no competitive players prefer to use it.

 

[Reaperfan]

The Gamepad is almost always disallowed as a controller.

In practice it's a philosophical point, since no competitive players prefer to use it.

None right now. But to me that sounds like, back in Brawl, dismissing the Wiimotes because "nobody uses them" despite the fact we had some players who eventually did.

And maybe it's just what I've been exposed to, but I don't recall seeing an event where the rules outright banned the Gamepad. Even if they do, that seems stifling to players who prefer it as their control method because if they want to participate at all they're forced to use a controller they aren't fully comfortable with.

 

[Thinkaman]

None right now. But to me that sounds like, back in Brawl, dismissing the Wiimotes because "nobody uses them" despite the fact we had some players who eventually did.

And maybe it's just what I've been exposed to, but I don't recall seeing an event where the rules outright banned the Gamepad. Even if they do, that seems stifling to players who prefer it as their control method because if they want to participate at all they're forced to use a controller they aren't fully comfortable with.

Most robust rulesets I've seen, including Apex's, has it banned.

It's also not a good comparison to Wiimotes, because it's basically strictly inferior to the Pro. (Rather than completely different)

 

[Reaperfan]

Most robust rulesets I've seen, including Apex's, has it banned.

It's also not a good comparison to Wiimotes, because it's basically strictly inferior to the Pro. (Rather than completely different)

I didn't recall Apex having banned it, but after double-checking I see you're right. I still don't agree with it though.

As for the second point, I'd ask what makes it strictly inferior (as far as I can tell the only real difference is in how your hands are positioned as you hold it) but that's a discussion for another thread.

 

[Jaxas]

I didn't recall Apex having banned it, but after double-checking I see you're right. I still don't agree with it though.

As for the second point, I'd ask what makes it strictly inferior (as far as I can tell the only real difference is in how your hands are positioned as you hold it) but that's a discussion for another thread.

Well another way it's inferior is that only 1 can be hooked up to a system at a time, which is a pretty big problem

 

[Reaperfan]

Well another way it's inferior is that only 1 can be hooked up to a system at a time, which is a pretty big problem

Hence my original question a few posts back. If they're banned, I guess that technically solves the problem, but at the cost of the players who may play best on that controller. It's a small portion of players, to be sure, but still exclusionary.

My original question then was, short of banning them, how should they be handled in a tournament setting in a hypothetical situation that two players who use them face each other? (seeing as that's the only real situation they could cause a serious problem)

 

[Jaxas]

Hence my original question a few posts back. If they're banned, I guess that technically solves the problem, but at the cost of the players who may play best on that controller. It's a small portion of players, to be sure, but still exclusionary.

My original question then was, short of banning them, how should they be handled in a tournament setting in a hypothetical situation that two players who use them face each other? (seeing as that's the only real situation they could cause a serious problem)

A coinflip for who gets their controller, I suppose, and the loser has to use some other controller?

 

[Pazx]

I think it's best to ban them outright, it's the fairest option for both players. I wouldn't make it a DQ-worthy offense though, if one player wants to use one and it's their Wii U then sure.

Also I don't bother bringing my gamepad when I bring a setup, I just find out what sort of tv I'll be using and set it up before I leave.

 

[Saturn_]

new here, sorry if this has already been discussed somewhere in the previous 24 pages, but I HAAAAAAAAAATE the rule that awards Bowser the kill for suicides. Hate hate hate. It's not in the game! It was specifically patched so that wouldn't happen! Maybe in the future I can miss an attack but be awarded the kill by tournament organizers.

 

[Raijinken]

While you can't, by hardware, allow both players to use the Pro Controller, it's in the interest of worst-case preparedness to disallow it. Most players who play at a serious level only practice with one controller, and solving it by a coinflip is essentially giving each player a 50/50 of starting the match with a significant handicap. It's kinda like how the vast majority of large tournaments clone Apex's ruleset (and lock out customs etc) in preparation for the largest event. If you plan on competing in an area that disallows them (or in one so large that it's possible two players could desire the Gamepad in a single match), then you've little choice but to adapt your practice to reduce your handicap. Conversely, if you're playing in a small tournament consisting almost exclusively of friends you know, then go for it, but make sure a rule is in place in case a newcomer appears who wants to use the Gamepad as well.

For that matter, it seems like the fairest solution is to allow it if ONE player wants it, but to disallow it if BOTH players want to use it, thus resulting in at least a fair (if not necessarily equally impactful) handicap.

As for customs, it's no secret (if you're around the moveset project discussions) that I like them and think they're beneficial to balance and variety. In the early stages (i.e. since they're not widespread) it may be useful to provide a reference reading at the venue, in addition to what Venks said about simply explaining the moves to your opponent. Certainly takes no more time than coaching, especially if the player using them actually knows their properties and why they're using them in the first place. Particularly with the custom moveset project-style #### labels, it's a short matter of time before players learn the properties of the regularly used moves, and learn to identify the flavor of opponent they're facing based on the numbering.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

My view on the Gamepad is this. Players can use it if they really want to, but it's not the TO's problem if they can't. I mean, the Gamepad for that system may not be on hand or the system owner might not want you to play smash with his Gamepad, and pairing a new Gamepad may be too slow to accept. If two players dispute who gets to use the Gamepad obviously neither does, but as a TO I would have no sympathy for a player who was disputing this just to force his opponent off the controller. It's still not worth banning for locals at this stage of the game as you often have players show up who don't own their own controllers and who find the Gamepad a convenient device to use. I'd probably write the rule like this:

-Players should not expect to be able to use the Gamepad as their controller of choice. If one is on hand for the Wii U it may be used by a player who doesn't own another controller, but if both players want to use it and a mutual understanding cannot be found, neither will be able to use it. Don't bluff this; a TO may at his discretion force you to use the Gamepad if it is reasonably believed you don't really want to and are just pretending.

For nationals it should just be banned since that's impossible to police at a large scale; that more complex rule is just for locals to keep things moving with a lot of new/lower skilled players who are far less wedded to the GC controller and who often don't have their own controllers. At locals it's insane to DQ new people who didn't bring their own controller (whereas at nationals of course that should be done without hesitation), and if they want to use a Gamepad on hand whereas we'd otherwise have to wait to find them some controller elsewhere, we're going to have them use a Gamepad.

 

[DanGR]

At our HASL events we use this rule:

"If both players want to use the Gamepad and no agreement can be reached then neither may use it for the first match and then the loser of any match MUST use it in any following match of that set."

 

[YourP0P]

Good read!

 

[Thinkaman]

At our HASL events we use this rule:

"If both players want to use the Gamepad and no agreement can be reached then neither may use it for the first match and then the loser of any match MUST use it in any following match of that set."

This is clever.

 

[Judo777]

I thought one of the important reasons for the custom project (forgive me I don't know the full name) was to pre-establish all the custom sets (or most of them and then others can be added by the TO) so that players weren't uploading custom sets from their own 3DS (runs the risk of the player using illegal equipment sets and such). Therefore would we want them to use pre-establish miis height and weight) for the same reason?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Illegal equipment sets are easy to detect on the spot (you can see if equipment effects are on a set as it is being uploaded). The main idea of the custom project is to have most popular sets already loaded to save a lot of time (loading sets from a 3ds in total takes about 40 seconds, acceptable time loss once in a while but can add a lot of time if we do it every single game) as well as hassle for players who don't own a 3ds (you can't realistically expect every Wii U you have to have all of the customs unlocked, though building your own custom moveset takes only 20 seconds instead of 40 if the Wii U does have them unlocked).

That being said, there are a lot of further concerns beyond normal custom ones with Miis. It's not entirely clear how the size thing plays out overall, and it seems likely every archetype will have one optimum size though I don't believe it is entirely clear at that point what that size actually is. Mii Fighters just plain need more exploration.

 

[san.]

Illegal equipment sets are easy to detect on the spot (you can see if equipment effects are on a set as it is being uploaded). The main idea of the custom project is to have most popular sets already loaded to save a lot of time (loading sets from a 3ds in total takes about 40 seconds, acceptable time loss once in a while but can add a lot of time if we do it every single game) as well as hassle for players who don't own a 3ds (you can't realistically expect every Wii U you have to have all of the customs unlocked, though building your own custom moveset takes only 20 seconds instead of 40 if the Wii U does have them unlocked).

That being said, there are a lot of further concerns beyond normal custom ones with Miis. It's not entirely clear how the size thing plays out overall, and it seems likely every archetype will have one optimum size though I don't believe it is entirely clear at that point what that size actually is. Mii Fighters just plain need more exploration.

Height is somewhat balanced up to middle height, while weight leans towards the lightest weight, choosing mobility over some survivability. 97 weight isn't that much worse than 102 weight, so mobility is more appealing.

Minimum height has extremely low lag for extremely short range. Grabs and attacks have low end lag, but it's difficult to hit and you get outranged by everything. Average height has a tiny bit more lag than what I want, though the range is decent. I think that inbetween minimum and average height, ~Mega Man height, is optimal since you have great mobility, decent range, and somewhat low lag. I think that's the best overall, but minimum height is appealing in its own way, such as making Mii Swordsman as fast as possible to make up for his default sluggishness.

Even so, maximum height has absurd range and may appeal to a small niche, since range on attacks and grabs drastically increase. Weight is still better at minimum for those imo.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Height is somewhat balanced up to middle height, while weight leans towards the lightest weight, choosing mobility over some survivability. 97 weight isn't that much worse than 102 weight, so mobility is more appealing.

Minimum height has extremely low lag for extremely short range. Grabs and attacks have low end lag, but it's difficult to hit and you get outranged by everything. Average height has a tiny bit more lag than what I want, though the range is decent. I think that inbetween minimum and average height, ~Mega Man height, is optimal since you have great mobility, decent range, and somewhat low lag. I think that's the best overall, but minimum height is appealing in its own way, such as making Mii Swordsman as fast as possible to make up for his default sluggishness.

Even so, maximum height has absurd range and may appeal to a small niche, since range on attacks and grabs drastically increase. Weight is still better at minimum for those imo.

I'm imagining a max height Gunner now and wondering how big its attacks would be. My personal Mii is already close to the maximum height setting.

 

[san.]

Incredibly long ranged dsmashes.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So with EVO 6 months away, I feel confident saying that it's feasible for someone to get all of the custom moves unlocked by then. I did it myself in less than 2, had them all by the first week of 2015. Since logistics are basically the biggest concern about getting them widely used, does anyone else think it's reasonable to push for customs at EVO?

I made a post on Reddit here if anyone wants to talk about it there too. </shameless plug>

 

[Raijinken]

So with EVO 6 months away, I feel confident saying that it's feasible for someone to get all of the custom moves unlocked by then. I did it myself in less than 2, had them all by the first week of 2015. Since logistics are basically the biggest concern about getting them widely used, does anyone else think it's reasonable to push for customs at EVO?

I made a post on Reddit here if anyone wants to talk about it there too. </shameless plug>

Actually going for customs with dedication, it can probably be done in less than a week. It took me two weeks on the 3DS version, including a lot of time spent just playing the game with friends. Didn't focus on them for the U version since I could copy profiles, but I still had 'em all by the end of December.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Actually going for customs with dedication, it can probably be done in less than a week. It took me two weeks on the 3DS version, including a lot of time spent just playing the game with friends. Didn't focus on them for the U version since I could copy profiles, but I still had 'em all by the end of December.

I still like citing my "less than two months" figure because it was maybe 5 hours a week. Hardly intensive grinding. I have absolutely no doubt someone more dedicated than myself could polish it off pretty fast.

 

[Jaxas]

I still like citing my "less than two months" figure because it was maybe 5 hours a week. Hardly intensive grinding. I have absolutely no doubt someone more dedicated than myself could polish it off pretty fast.

I don't have them all yet, but I've been just leaving the game to run through Smash Tour (Large map, 15 turns) while on my computer and it does it for me. It's slow, and I have to hit start every once in a while, but it's really low-maintenance and I have over 300 customs without having done much at all unlocking-wise.

 

[Pazx]

I don't have them all yet, but I've been just leaving the game to run through Smash Tour (Large map, 15 turns) while on my computer and it does it for me. It's slow, and I have to hit start every once in a while, but it's really low-maintenance and I have over 300 customs without having done much at all unlocking-wise.

This is game-changing. Thank you.

 

[webbedspace]

I'm a bit annoyed that Sudden Death Gambler (reduces starting Sudden Death damage to 100%) only has a one-in-two chance of working. If it was guaranteed to work, I wonder if sudden death might become tournament legal if it was a required equip...

*remembers the random Bob-ombs* Ah, nevermind.

 

[mimgrim]

Minimum height has extremely low lag for extremely short range. Grabs and attacks have low end lag, but it's difficult to hit and you get outranged by everything.

Unless it's Gunner. Gunner still has moves that out ranges a good majority of the cast even when at minimum height. I can still see why people would make Gunner somewhere between minimum and average height though for the more close range moves but Gunner isn't as hurt by range reduction for increased mobility when shortest possible when compared to Brawler or Swordsman as he still out ranges a good portion of the cast. Felt like I needed to clarify on that a little bit as it isn't an exact case for all three classes.

 

[san.]

I value having nair as a viable move, and other normals are easier for me to use. It's probably not bad considering I haven't tried using that spec in a while.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I had a small idea pertaining to stage selection which probably has plenty of flaws in it but whatever. Conversation never hurt anyone.

1. For game 1, players choose their characters, then the stage is selected via FLSS.
2. All subsequent games are played on the same stage as the previous game until such time as either player changes their character. They then select a new stage via FLSS.
3. Repeat (2) until set is over.

Pro: In theory, it should result in matches playing on the most neutral stage for the matchup out of the available stage list. This depends on both players knowing their stages relative to the matchup.
Con: Murders stage variety due to the lack of free stage selection for the loser.
Either?: Gentleman's picks are more meaningful, applying to multiple games in a row. Unsure if this is a pro, con, or neutral.

 

[webbedspace]

A stage selection method that encourages Gentleman's (i.e. encourages mutually ignoring the method altogether) seems suspect from any angle.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

Has there been a poll to tally the 2 or 3-stock preference anywhere?

I'm surprised to see 2-stock so ubiquitously used, despite the underwhelming amount of support for it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

There is none because most players seems to be fine either way.

 

[Terotrous]

I had a small idea pertaining to stage selection which probably has plenty of flaws in it but whatever. Conversation never hurt anyone.

1. For game 1, players choose their characters, then the stage is selected via FLSS.
2. All subsequent games are played on the same stage as the previous game until such time as either player changes their character. They then select a new stage via FLSS.
3. Repeat (2) until set is over.

Pro: In theory, it should result in matches playing on the most neutral stage for the matchup out of the available stage list.

The objective of the current stage selection system is for the later games of a set not to take place on the most neutral stage, though, we deliberately give an advantage to the losing player to give them a chance to turn things around.

 

[Piford]

The objective of the current stage selection system is for the later games of a set not to take place on the most neutral stage, though, we deliberately give an advantage to the losing player to give them a chance to turn things around.

This reminds me, I think stage striking should be moved to round 3. It would put emphasis on the last game of the set, and save time since matches with one clearly better player will not have to stage strike. So essentially
Round 1: Player 2 bans stages, Player 1 counterpicks, Player 2 picks a character, Player 1 picks a character.
Round 2: Player 1 bans stages, Player 2 counterpicks, Player 1 picks a character, Player 2 picks a character.
Round 3: Players blind pick characters, than FLSS to the closest to neutral stage.

This saves time since the better player will win rounds 1 and 2. That means the extra time can be put to FLSS. It also makes the last round the most fair, and this is better since you can apply the knowledge you gained from fighting your opponent without the stage giving either player an advantage.

 

[Pazx]

It's 2015 and people are still acting like counterpicking is faster than stage striking

 

[Terotrous]

It's 2015 and people are still acting like counterpicking is faster than stage striking

How is it not? With counterpicking, the winning player strikes X number of stages and then the opponent just chooses one. With FLSS you have to go back and forth.

 

[ぱみゅ]

How is it not?

http://youtu.be/T98uKLWpl9E?t=6m58s