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Competitive controls

Thrahser

Smash Rookie
Joined
Feb 29, 2008
Messages
8
Location
Ontario Canada
Are any of the competitive gamers even considering using the wii-mote and nunchuck? I really like the idea of it, but I'm not sure I want to lose my c stick. Would you be able to bind the c sticks up down left and right to the D pad?
 

Chaosblade77

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,958
I think there will be consideration... but whether or not it happens... who knows. I don't think it's right to limit tournaments to GCN controllers, especially if people entering are better or accustomed to a different controller. However, I also understand the issues with the all of the Wii remote control styles and understand why they wouldn't be allowed.

In my opinion, it's a lose-lose situation no matter which way they go. Either tournaments will have delays due to controller syncing and such (because sometimes the remotes can be an ***), or there will be people upset because they cannot use their preferred control method.

That doesn't even take potential interference issues into consideration.
 

Silver Flame

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Messages
758
Location
At some location at some point in time.
I have been considering using the wii mote/ nunchuk combo as well. I don't like their default setup, so I'll do some changeing of that. As far as a c stick, you can use the shake smash to have a similar effect as the c stick. I have not played brawl yet so, I don't know how much motion it takes to execute, but I think a shake smash is perfect for this controller setup.
 

DethSmasher

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
51
the wii mote and nunchuch isnt going to be viable, the wii mote is tricky so in a vital situation if you shake it just a litle wrong or the motion sensor picks it up wrong that can be the difference between a win and loss, plus most people who play tourneys are really accustomed to the GC controller
 

_NeXuS_

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 28, 2008
Messages
36
i like the idea of the wiimote/nunchuck combo mainly because it offers better button coverage, but we'll have to see. thinking about picking up a classic controller or just sticking to my GCN controller as well.
 

Coselm

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
548
Location
Gainesville, FL
O know a few people who play with wiimotes/nunchuks. The GCN controller feels so much better to me. Especially now that I can change things a little. I am going to disable the tilt attacks with c-stick and maybe get rid of up for jumping.
 

M3tr01D

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 7, 2005
Messages
1,345
Location
Olympia, WA
I would never consider any variation of the Wiimote for tourney play. As someone else said, one false shake that could be read by something as simple as just readjusting your arm, and you do an attack that wasn't intended. If I got punished for that attack, and lose the match or even just a stock for it, I guarantee my Wiimote will be thrown. Far.
 

Itakio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
474
Location
Spokane, WA
Absolutely not. The C-stick was very, very important in Melee and I believe it will be the same in Brawl.
 

illphil

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 11, 2008
Messages
189
Location
California
Dont use shake smash...? I don't plan on using it. I gotta get used to working for my smashes now...
 

Zevox

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 19, 2007
Messages
1,513
Location
Michigan
the wii mote and nunchuch isnt going to be viable, the wii mote is tricky so in a vital situation if you shake it just a litle wrong or the motion sensor picks it up wrong that can be the difference between a win and loss, plus most people who play tourneys are really accustomed to the GC controller
You can turn off the Shake Smash option, you know. Hell, if the image on the Dojo is any indication, its off by default, and you have to turn it on yourself to use it.

Anyway, I'm going to use the Wiimote + Nunchuk, but I'm not a competitive player, so I suppose I don't count for the purposes of the OP's question.

Zevox
 

BentoBox

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
3,214
Location
Montreal
Why most people shouldn't or wouldn't bother adapting to the newer options~

(taken from my comment on Glenn's story here: http://www.gameriot.com/blogs/Get-Your-Tournament/Analysis-Controller-options/#comments)

If the controllers are banned it will be for one or two reasons, and these are the only real acceptable reasons for banning the alternatives to the GC Controller: Interferance and Syncing.

Syncing wouldn't be a problem if only experienced players were at the tournament, however this will almost never be the case. I own a Wii, but really, I've only synced my controllers ONCE and if you asked me how to sync them I wouldn't have a clue. For me, if I did choose to use a wireless controller at a tournament, I would certainly make sure I knew how to sync it before hand, but this sentiment will not be true for most players and it will cause an unneeded hassle at larger tournaments. I would also point to people running out of batteries midmatch, a problem an experienced player probably won't have because they will make sure to have a fresh set of batteries, but younger and more inexperience/less serious players will probably not have the foresight to do this and given enough players, someone will be bound to have battery problems mid match, and if I happen to be playing this person there is no way in hell I'm going to pause while they switch out batteries. Yet, I can already see the *****ing and moaning that would happen if randomscrub309 ran out of batteries and I pummeled his lifeless Pikachu for a "free" win.

In the end though, its the interference that can't be ignored. I don't anticipate wireless controllers being banned at small tournaments, but larger tournaments, and if MLG picks up the game, you can be sure its more than likely wired controllers will be required. Keep in mind MLG already has a set a precedent in this area by banning wireless controllers at all their events.

The following is a quote from M3D from about 8 months ago when we discussed this issue in the backroom:

Originally Posted by m3d
802.11 networks, the kind of wireless technology that DS systems and Wiis use to connect to the web and each other, can handle about 50-100 devices being in the same area before things really grind to a halt. 802.11 devices use a narrow portion of 2.4 Ghz range to transmit and whenever a device "hears" another 802.11 packet of data from another device, it refrains from transmitting until that packet has passed. While a few devices won't have any issues under this system, once you start hitting any more than that, you will see some serious slow down and lag. Additionally, any strong radio waves in the immediate area or any large number of additional electronic devices in the immediate vicinity can increase that interference significantly.

The Wii also uses another wireless technology, Bluetooth, to connect to the wiimotes. Fortunately, wiimotes and the system communicate under passkeys that lock the Wii and the controller to one another. That's why you can see a series of stations at Nintendo events, all using wireless controllers, that function just fine close to other stations. Bluetooth devices also use a pseudo-random switching system, to make small changes to the frequency about 1600 times per second. This further prevents interference with the devices.

However, according to bluetooth experts, the chances of two bluetooth devices in close range creating interference for each other is 1/79. Considering that 1600 changes are made per second, you can see the bluetooth devices are robust enough to handle regular spurts of interference here and there. However, the more devices you pack into one space, the more often that 1-in-79 chance interference actually happens. Bluetooth devices are also more robust than 802.11 technology when it comes to outside interference from televisions, power cables, cell phones and other electronic devices because they use the entire 2.4Ghz range to communicate and change rapidly. Unfortunately, they are not 100% resistent, so the more devices you pack into a single space, the more potential interference you encounter.

So imagine for a moment that you are using the Wii and wireless controllers to run a local tournament. It's the beginning of th event, which means lots of 4-man warm-ups and teams matches following. That means at each station, you have 5 bluetooth enabled devices (Wii + 4 controllers). Assuming you have 10 stations set up, that's 50 bluetooth enabled devices, plus the televisions, power strips, cell phones, DS systems and computers. Bluetooth has a maximum range of about 30 feet and an optimal range of 15 feet, so the closer any of these devices come to one another, the more likely interference will occur. Additionally, if any of the devices are networked together, for instance, some players are using the DS to play Pokemon between rounds, the interference increases. That interference will hurt the game of Pokemon more than it will hurt the game of Smash, but it will effect the Wiimotes. I am not terribly good at math, so someone else will have to calculate how a 1/79 chance, each of the 1600 changes per second, times 50 devices will play out and how often we can expect interference to occur.

So considering all of this, the question is, what is an acceptable amount of interference? As you can see, even small events are going to experience it in some fashion. It might not be enough to make the tournament unplayable, but its possible that the interference will effect the outcome of the matches if normal device functionality is interupted for a fraction of a second, every few seconds. Imagine attempting to run an event the size of FC, with 30 stations, 150 devices, plus 200 people talking on cell phones, playing on their DS and laptops and running power to TVs across a mile or so of cable. Sure not ALL of the devices will be within the 30 foot range, but they will overlap with dozens of potentially interfering devices no matter how well that gymnasium is arranged.

On top of all that, one has to consider the actual operation of the tourament and what kind of effect resetting the system over and over again to sync controllers will have on the ability to run the tournament smoothly. It will waste about 5 minutes each time the system has to be reset and controllers are synced. And since you will run into more problems if any other systems are resynced within the 30-foot range at the same time, even more time will be wasted staggering the reboot of systems within a certain range. If we allow wireless controllers at Brawl events, tournament organizers can expect to run about 25-30% longer easily than they have with Melee.

---------
His last part about controllers syncing may be/is an exageration but the interference part is pretty sound.

If only 10 or so people bring these types of controllers then yea, it probably won't be a problem. But the days of Melee tournaments are over, I'd guess at tournaments, at least for the next year, a quarter to half the participants will be Melee vets, the other half or so will be new players. Plus this needs to be looked at in a longer term perspective as well.

I think the solution is simple, allow use of wireless controllers but also include a note: In the event a wireless controller malfunctions (low batteries, interference) midgame the game shall NOT be replayed and the current game will be finished regardless of the wireless controllers condition.

That comment will get the point across and fairly warn anyone of the results from their choice. Basically it'll become like the wavebird was in Melee.
 

Cereal Rabbit

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 13, 2007
Messages
1,536
Location
Davis, CA
If my Wii Mote gets disconnected during my Brawl tournament match, I'm freaking screwed.

GC Controller all the way.
 

Kit Cal-N

Smash Ace
Joined
May 11, 2005
Messages
856
Location
St Louis, MO
I feel classic controller doesn't have to be banned, though. Each station in a tournament will have at least one Wiimote anyway, it could basically be a port since the player won't use it as a controller. And the majority of the players will still use GC controllers, so the match-upof two classic controller users would be rare enough to have a dedicated set-up.
 

Master Fox

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 28, 2001
Messages
230
Location
The Great Fox
Smash Shake may need a combination of A and control stick for it to work. This must be analyzed an I shall Analyze the Control schemes once I've obtained Brawl, on March 9th!

I believe it should be up to what the player is comfortable with. I'll personally be using Wiimote+Nunchuk, possibly even only using the Side Wiimote configuration. We'll find out!
 

HamSTAB0i

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 17, 2006
Messages
5
Location
Milpitas, California
i wonder if an Arcade stick can be used in Brawl



i would use it if it works =]
currently on Classic Controler which i feel its alot easier to use than GC controler, just swich one of the Shield Buttons to grab and your good
the button setup has some getting use to but i feel the joystick is alot more responsive than a GC controler
 

Meteor!

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 25, 2005
Messages
324
Location
Auburn, WA
I have one of those, it doesn't work.

From my experience, the absolute best setup is GC controller with tap jump turned off and default buttons.
 

JoeTang

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 7, 2008
Messages
74
Location
MB, Canada
As far as I could tell from my Japanese Menu, a Wiimote must have a registered Gamer Tag set to turn on Smash Shakes. Up, Down, Left, Right correspond with their smashes. If you tilt the Wiimote sideways (i.e. hold it sideways, buttons perpendicular to the ground) you will always Down Smash. At least, my Wiimote does that. It's somewhat sensitive to swinging movements, but I would say it's just as much as Wii Sports things (which may be a lot depending on your perspective). Even drawing your hand back a little for room to swing can cause you to Smash in the wrong direction.

Since the mechanics are pressing a Directional Input and the A button at the same time, you can charge Smashes by pressing and holding A when you swing. If you're holding down Up or Down, and swing in those directions, you will Tilt. You cannot Forward Tilt by swinging. You can Aerial. It can be useful for things like Reverse Aerial Rushing, or certain DI movements. If you time the swing correctly with the B button, you can perform Specials. It's just a minor thing that occurs because it registers a direction and the B button.

The D-Pad can be registered for Instant Smashes like the C-Stick. You can only register the appropriate directions to the D-Pad. i.e. D-Pad Down can only be set to Down Smash, it cannot Up Smash. The D-Pad can be registered to perform any other action as well as its respective Smash, other than movement.
 

RickettsZ22

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 3, 2008
Messages
38
im pretty sure that im going to be using a classic controller, you can't beat the SNES controller style, except with the 360 controller, but we obviously can't use that cause their is no third party device like with the PS2 controller, but i believe that most people that want to play cometitive will be using a gamecube controller due to the slight lag you recieve with a wirless controller, with a wired connection everything is going to respond to your imputs alot faster than it would with a wireless controller, a casual gamer or even a semi-hardcore gamer might not notice, but for people who compete in a game like smash, a little lag could be the differece between a head shot and a KO in competive style gaming, so I don't really see it being a problem because a large majority of the people are going to be using the GC controller due to its responsiveness, and i think that the wireless will get banned, because of time issues and interference
 

otter

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 19, 2007
Messages
616
Location
Ohio
I have every controller type so that I can choose AFTER using them all. If it turns out I don't like the Gamecube (which is likely), I will just have to say bye bye to mainstream tourneys cause people here are more concerned with the organizer's profit, rather than the people putting the money in.
 

Proven

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
199
Wait, don't tell me people are that ignorant of the Wiimote syncing capabilities. First, there's an automatic quick sync you can do in 10 seconds from just the Home menu in any game, and two, there's already the built in nametag/control-setup transfer through the wii remotes, which is similar to the first wii remote syncing method, but done without having to press the Home button.

What you're describing is the hard sync that has the Wii Remote treat a specific console as it's home console. With the quick sync features, there's no reason to ever have to turn off a Wii during the tournament unless it freezes for some reason.
 

Dreminem

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 31, 2007
Messages
41
Location
Raleigh NC
I'll be using gamecube, I'm sure most other melee players will too because that is what they are used to.
 

Dream Chaser

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Messages
202
Location
Adelaide, Australia
I can use the gamecube but I'd like to try the wiimote + nunchuk (most probably with adjusted button settings) so that I can avoid having to move my fingers away from buttons.

So clarifying, in tournaments the WM + N controller cant be used because its wireless?
 
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