IMO YL vs Pikachu is about even. Pika's hard to hit but he also has a hard time forcing anything on YL. Theoretically Pichu is even as well but I haven't played that.Snake and young link matchup pretty well with the rats, too, right?
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IMO YL vs Pikachu is about even. Pika's hard to hit but he also has a hard time forcing anything on YL. Theoretically Pichu is even as well but I haven't played that.Snake and young link matchup pretty well with the rats, too, right?
In early %s, quite a lot, pummel is real fast and proves quite usefull at later %s leading to KO %s. Early damage %s, a D Throw leads to double B Air, and can be potentially followed up by grounded Monkey Flip Kick or a dash attack to send her upwards yet again. Or a grab, D Throw, N Air, to B Air / F Air also works with %s. Lucina's aerial mobility is bothersome at times yes, but Diddy is faster on the ground than she in the air. So it's managable.Even pulling banana is more of a commitment than in S4. Diddy has ground mobility, but not air mobility. He has no consistent way to kill or beat out Lucina's aerials. Also, what damage is he getting from grab in comparison to the rest of the cast?
for sure. He's basically build around the archetype the most. Up next, I would say , , & , and . There's some others, but they rely more on patience, punishing, and timing their moves, as , , , , , , and .So which characters are best suited for a rush down style of play?
Is Gravitational Pull's frame data so bad as to make it unusable as an anti-projectile option?She struggles with projectiles a bit because they'll hit Luma even if you shield them. Rosa is held back, more than anything, by how squishy Luma is.
Interesting tier list. People seem to be high on Lucas lately and Villager and Falco in high tier also deviates from the normMuteace peach matchup chart and tier list
Good stream! thanks for the host @BestNess_ <3.
— Stride | MuteAce 竜 (@MuteAce) March 14, 2019
This is my MU chart and tier list. Tier list is all ordered but most are interchangeable by a spot or two.https://t.co/fM2JaJjp26 :o pic.twitter.com/CdydJ5nTuP
Pikachu and Pichu seem tough to me as YL. Their low profile and ability to get in seems to take away some YL’s zoning tools and it also seems like they can edgeguard YL effectively. I’m not that good nor extremely knowledgeable with, he’s just a pocket/secondary for me but it seems like Pikachu and Pichu have a slight advantage to meIMO YL vs Pikachu is about even. Pika's hard to hit but he also has a hard time forcing anything on YL. Theoretically Pichu is even as well but I haven't played that.
No but you have to be very careful using it. Against some mus it's not that useful (e.g: Young Link, Belmonts) but in others it's really important (PK Kids, Snake). The point is that you shouldn't generally abuse it against characters that can frame trap you with more projectiles but it's still very useful against characters that have tools to zone you, that move alone literally destroys K. Rool and other characters like Bowser Jr. and R.O.B. still have problems with it, for example.Is Gravitational Pull's frame data so bad as to make it unusable as an anti-projectile option?
I haven't watched the stream, but that tier seems more like high-mid tier than high tier to me. Did he mention in the stream that it's high tier? Assuming it's ordered within tiers, he actually placed Ness slightly lower than I do, interesting.Interesting tier list. People seem to be high on Lucas lately and Villager and Falco in high tier also deviates from the norm
Villager's placement in high tier is, for me, an indication of how inescapable it is for players to see the game through the lens of their mains.Muteace peach matchup chart and tier list
Good stream! thanks for the host @BestNess_ <3.
— Stride | MuteAce 竜 (@MuteAce) March 14, 2019
This is my MU chart and tier list. Tier list is all ordered but most are interchangeable by a spot or two.https://t.co/fM2JaJjp26 :o pic.twitter.com/CdydJ5nTuP
I didn’t watch it either but I usually assume A tier is high tier. It could be high mid, I really don’t know, but I just think it’s interesting how high he placed Flaco and Villager especiallyI haven't watched the stream, but that tier seems more like high-mid tier than high tier to me. Did he mention in the stream that it's high tier? Assuming it's ordered within tiers, he actually placed Ness slightly lower than I do, interesting.
The Snake placement seems rather low to me, the Young Link a bit high. Overall it seems like one of the better tier lists out there though. Villager and the Pits in high-mid is interesting as well.
Regarding his Peach/Daisy MU chart: Unlike Samsora's, Peach actually looks like a top tier character there. Oh, and apparently both MuteAce and Myran think Olimar is the best character in the game, interesting... I could see it, although I'm personally leaning towards Peach/Daisy being the best.
in high tier doesn't seem to be the most popular opinion, but it's one that should be being considered in my opinion. He seems to sever as kind of a combination of and but not being as strong as they are in most areas. His blaster is good but not as good as Wolf's. He can try to play like a rushdown character, but he lack's Fox's ground speed. His jump height is high, but his up-b isn't as good as Fox's. His kill power is good, but Fox can kill more consistently. He lacks the range that Wolf has. However, Falco's combo game is really strong, and that is one area where he really stands out in comparison to the other 2. So while there isn't much reason to play rather than or , it doesn't mean that he's bad necessarily.Falco in high tier also deviates from the norm
That's something players have to watch out for. In my case, has a really good MU vs DDD and I rated him low. But it sounds like some characters can't deal with gordos very well and he's getting results. Maybe DDD's better than I thought.Villager's placement in high tier is, for me, an indication of how inescapable it is for players to see the game through the lens of their mains.
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Everyone needs to be careful about that, but I do think it is truly inescapable because we always play the game with a particular character's tool set. It's why every time a top player posts a tier list someone says "top players are so ignorant; they don't know these particular things about characters x, y, and z." Anyone's tier list will be wrong about a bunch of stuff with a 75 character roster.That's something players have to watch out for. In my case, has a really good MU vs DDD and I rated him low. But it sounds like some characters can't deal with gordos very well and he's getting results. Maybe DDD's better than I thought.
It's encouraging to hear such analysis about a character that most care little for. Mostly the conversation just revolves around the Top picks in this thread...is not bad for sure. It's just that she belongs somewhere around the middle of a massive mid tier, so it's understandable that people aren't too interested in analyzing the minutiae of her mediocrity.
She has a solid advantage state between her excellent juggling and edgeguarding (is there anybody better than Rosa at juggling?), so there's some reward in winning neutral. Her neutral game is fairly decent, with the best boost grab in the game, star bits to disrupt the opponent, and good pokes with bair. Tech like lunar jumps open up a lot of traps and setups as well for her. She struggles with projectiles a bit because they'll hit Luma even if you shield them. Rosa is held back, more than anything, by how squishy Luma is.
He dies to everything in this game, and when he's dead, you get put in disadvantage very quickly (SoRo is the 4th worst character in the game, right after SoPo, Nolimar, and Luma himself). Being in disadvantage is extra bad as Rosa, because Luma will often die right as he spawns next to you.
Still though, she's definitely underrated. She can be played effectively with multiple playstyles, which is huge, and her matchup spread is pretty solid. I'd say she beats or goes even with most of the cast, but loses to most of top tier. However, other than Olimar, I think that all her losing matchups are very doable. A lot of Rosa mains say she beats Inkling and Snake, so that's something.
If Luma was given some sort of meaningful survivability buff (More HP, knockback resistance, the ability to recall him after her gets launched offstage at higher HP, etc.), I firmly believe that Rosalina would become a very threatening character, and borderline high tier.
Another issue with the character in my opinion is that she's stupid hard from a technical point of view (Peach hasn't got anything on Ultimate Rosa) so it makes her very difficult to learn, and so results and top level gameplay are lacking. When a lot of the better characters are easy to pick up and do well with (Wolf, Lucina, Ike), there's not much of a reason to pick up Rosalina.
I'm so mad they made it seem like shield consistently covered Luma in the trailers. I really thought they were going to make him harder to kill, but less oppressive with shorter movements forward etc.is not bad for sure. It's just that she belongs somewhere around the middle of a massive mid tier, so it's understandable that people aren't too interested in analyzing the minutiae of her mediocrity.
She has a solid advantage state between her excellent juggling and edgeguarding (is there anybody better than Rosa at juggling?), so there's some reward in winning neutral. Her neutral game is fairly decent, with the best boost grab in the game, star bits to disrupt the opponent, and good pokes with bair. Tech like lunar jumps open up a lot of traps and setups as well for her. She struggles with projectiles a bit because they'll hit Luma even if you shield them. Rosa is held back, more than anything, by how squishy Luma is.
He dies to everything in this game, and when he's dead, you get put in disadvantage very quickly (SoRo is the 4th worst character in the game, right after SoPo, Nolimar, and Luma himself). Being in disadvantage is extra bad as Rosa, because Luma will often die right as he spawns next to you.
Still though, she's definitely underrated. She can be played effectively with multiple playstyles, which is huge, and her matchup spread is pretty solid. I'd say she beats or goes even with most of the cast, but loses to most of top tier. However, other than Olimar, I think that all her losing matchups are very doable. A lot of Rosa mains say she beats Inkling and Snake, so that's something.
If Luma was given some sort of meaningful survivability buff (More HP, knockback resistance, the ability to recall him after her gets launched offstage at higher HP, etc.), I firmly believe that Rosalina would become a very threatening character, and borderline high tier.
Another issue with the character in my opinion is that she's stupid hard from a technical point of view (Peach hasn't got anything on Ultimate Rosa) so it makes her very difficult to learn, and so results and top level gameplay are lacking. When a lot of the better characters are easy to pick up and do well with (Wolf, Lucina, Ike), there's not much of a reason to pick up Rosalina.
The thing about gordos is that they're not really that scary in neutral for most characters, they're more about pressing DDD's advantage stage (such as with ledgetrapping). Is Young Link good at dealing with gordo ledgetraps? He probably still wins the MU since he should dominate neutral vs Dedede, although I do wonder if it's really that bad for Dedede as you seem to think it is.That's something players have to watch out for. In my case, has a really good MU vs DDD and I rated him low. But it sounds like some characters can't deal with gordos very well and he's getting results. Maybe DDD's better than I thought.
YL can bounce back gordos with any of his projectiles so he can toss out boomerang when recovering. YL also has a tether to mix up recoveries. It's hard for DDD to get into ledge trap positions even if YL's recovering.The thing about gordos is that they're not really that scary in neutral for most characters, they're more about pressing DDD's advantage stage (such as with ledgetrapping). Is Young Link good at dealing with gordo ledgetraps? He probably still wins the MU since he should dominate neutral vs Dedede, although I do wonder if it's really that bad for Dedede as you seem to think it is.
Dedede is probably somewhere in the #25-40 range?
The "partner panic" is not really a mechanic unique to Ultimate. It existed in Smash 4, but was just less well known for whatever reason. As far as I'm aware, Luma's mechanics when Rosa is grabbed are the same as in Smash 4It's encouraging to hear such analysis about a character that most care little for. Mostly the conversation just revolves around the Top picks in this thread...
I agree that Luma needs a buff. He dies way too easily. I'm sure Nintendo is being very cautious about it since OG RosaLuma in Smash 4 was stupid good. But I feel like the heavy nerf-hammer Luma received isn't as needed with the new "partner-panics" grab mechanics.
It's just very difficult for Rosa to function without Luma and there's not nearly enough advantages given to her to compensate for when he's not there. Greater survivability is needed. If not that, then a way to save him after he falls off the edge, or even if Luma is dead turn Neutral B into a "Hold button to Summon a Luma" skill; letting you spawn one faster.
I don't think any of those are unreasonable, but I'm sure many are still licking their scars from Smash 4.
Aside from the Luma weakness though, you still have to deal with her Amazonian hurtbox and floaty nature. Not insurmountable, but still a notable hinderance. She's fun to play as though. I've been fooling around with her lately trying to figure her out and its been a good time. Proper spacing with her and clever use of Luma when away from you is where her power lies.
Yeah, I strongly agree with this. The metagame seems pretty healthy and still rapidly evolving. I'm more worried about change than demanding it at the moment!I love this game, the high tier is big, top tiers are relatively fair, and even the bad characters have killed me with spicy memes
Pray to the Nintendo gods that the DLC is more balanced this time around
Every time I get rekt by some sick Zelda setup or whatever it's a hoot
Luma acts the same way as Smash 4 when Rosa is in hitstun, grabbed, helpless or whatever. So it can still interrupt stuff as always, the only reason it seems to happen less it's because his hitboxes are not gigantic and have absurd frame data anymore.I agree that Luma needs a buff. He dies way too easily. I'm sure Nintendo is being very cautious about it since OG RosaLuma in Smash 4 was stupid good. But I feel like the heavy nerf-hammer Luma received isn't as needed with the new "partner-panics" grab mechanics.
Falco is a character that is great at comboing opponents to 50 or 60 damage, then can't do a whole lot and really struggles to secure kills. His blaster is massively outclassed by wolf's, and most other projectiles in the game for that matter. It says a lot when arrows are a better Falco laser than falco's lasers. His horizontal speed is really bad, which means he's more limited to playing a defensive punish game than rushing in offensively. His one burst option, side b, got a big nerf by not passing through shields.in high tier doesn't seem to be the most popular opinion, but it's one that should be being considered in my opinion. He seems to sever as kind of a combination of and but not being as strong as they are in most areas. His blaster is good but not as good as Wolf's. He can try to play like a rushdown character, but he lack's Fox's ground speed. His jump height is high, but his up-b isn't as good as Fox's. His kill power is good, but Fox can kill more consistently. He lacks the range that Wolf has. However, Falco's combo game is really strong, and that is one area where he really stands out in comparison to the other 2. So while there isn't much reason to play rather than or , it doesn't mean that he's bad necessarily.
doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.I've been thinking this for a while. No Top Tier in Ultimate is anywhere near as busted as some of the other Top Tiers in other games such as and in Smash Ultimate, they all seem to have at least one notable weakness that keeps them from being absolutely busted.
has huge disjoints, long lasting attacks, high speed, and good kill potential, but struggles to recover against the majority of the cast.
Id say Cloud is likely around the lower-end of high-tier. Still has a strong neutral, strong juggle options and kill-power.. Still has great mobility and a big ol' sword hitboxes sans his former n-air just got stolen by Ike this game.doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
Ok so before anyone else says this, since I'm the one who discovered it. G&W CAN'T get the same number twice in a row. This is basically a small buff by making it a 1/8 chance of getting a 9 instead of 1/9. So if you see me spam judge after a 9, now you know why.
— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) March 14, 2019
So the developers just reverted his Judge chance back to how it was in Brawl and Melee... sort of (1 and 2 are possible to get one the first or second use of Judge). Interesting decision, but it's not one that majorly affects him.Ok so before anyone else says this, since I'm the one who discovered it. G&W CAN'T get the same number twice in a row. This is basically a small buff by making it a 1/8 chance of getting a 9 instead of 1/9. So if you see me spam judge after a 9, now you know why.
— LG | Maister (@Maister_SSB) March 14, 2019
Little bit of G&W info that I found recently.
Outside of Olimar the main characters in consideration for actually beating the electric rats are usually the PK Kids, Ness in particular. Ness has disjointed aerials to contest with the Chus in the air and can wall them out with his projectiles and absorbing Thunder Jolts with his PSI Magnet, as well as threatening the Chu's low weight with Back-Throw. (This affects Pichu in particular.)Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.
Just seems every character I put time into has a -1 or -2 matchup with these two.
and no way in hell am I gonna be caught playing no Olimar, no siree
I would argue that Lucina and Chrom, aka the consistent blades, win the matchups, especially Lucina. Dealing with both of their disjoints, speed, power, and kill confirms can be really annoying for the Chus to deal with. In Lucina's case, I don't see anything the Chus can abuse in order to make it up.Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.
Just seems every character I put time into has a -1 or -2 matchup with these two.
and no way in hell am I gonna be caught playing no Olimar, no siree
I think Cloud is good. He doesn't have results because there are easier characters that do similar things.doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
I feel like the Pits are kind of suffering the same thing. They are both well-rounded, solid characters... oh wait. Lucina is the same, but better and requires less brain cells to play. Similar to Marth, there is little reason to play the Pits over Lucina.I think Cloud is good. He doesn't have results because there are easier characters that do similar things.
An example of what I mean: Marth is a strong character but everyone is playing Lucina instead. That doesn't mean Marth isn't great, it just means there are better, similar choices. Marth won't hold you back at top levels.
This cast has over 70 characters so we'll just keep running into stuff like that, heh.
The Pits do have some stuff over the Marth family line though, and that's their rather insane edgeguarding, and projectile. Their multiple jumps are great for edgeguarding and of course they can handle projectiles better due to the reflector specials. I do think there's quite some potential in the Pits this game, moreso than Brawl and Smash 4. Why isn't Earth using them instead of Fox?I feel like the Pits are kind of suffering the same thing. They are both well-rounded, solid characters... oh wait. Lucina is the same, but better and requires less brain cells to play. Similar to Marth, there is little reason to play the Pits over Lucina.
Lucina kind of overshadows a lot of characters, doesn't she? I guess it is revenge for being dubbed, "the inferior clone that has little reason to play as" throughout a lot of SSB4 history.
First of all, what do you mean "real-character".Maybe Earth has finally realized he could be a world level threat if he played a real character?
I don't have much experience with Pit, so I have a question.I feel like the Pits are kind of suffering the same thing. They are both well-rounded, solid characters... oh wait. Lucina is the same, but better and requires less brain cells to play. Similar to Marth, there is little reason to play the Pits over Lucina.
Lucina kind of overshadows a lot of characters, doesn't she? I guess it is revenge for being dubbed, "the inferior clone that has little reason to play as" throughout a lot of SSB4 history.
Pit would be so much better with just one good approach aerial. His kit as it is has no "glue." There are moves there that are okay in a vacuum, but his physics and other attacks don't come together to form something that's truly scary or even cohesive. A good pit player is just a good player.Maybe Earth has finally realized he could be a world level threat if he played a real character?
I dont think they jumped ship because cloud is harder to play, rather they jumped over to ike because he is similar enough for much better results.doesn't have the results right now to be a top tier character. Most of his mains/pocketers abandoned ship as soon as they found out that they have to put in more effort to play the character. I'm not at all surprised that character was dropped like a rock considering how broken he was in 4. I still think he's good though. People don't talk about him that much though which is pretty weird since has been a fairly popular topic for the wrong reasons.
Pit and Dark Pit are bad. Yes, they have a functional kit that lets them play the game. Yes, they have pretty good neutral tools and a good recovery. The thing is though...they are average to a fault. Their normals are meh with punishable cooldown, their aerials are decent but not incredible/abusable, their projectiles are fine but have nothing meta-breaking (Pit arrows are good for offstage though), they still take quite a while to net stocks...you get the idea. Similar to Sheik you can play them correctly about 95% of the time, but then the 5% where you're not in control is where you lose. Why is this? It's simple-the Pits get outdone by a superior BS options (Fox vortex, Pichu lightning loops/overall solid kill options, etc) that far outshine the apex of what the Pits are capable of. To make a Pokemon analogy it's like trying to take on the meta with something like Porygon2: a good Pokemon with decent stats that sadly doesn't have what it takes anymore to withstand the power creep in the meta.First of all, what do you mean "real-character".
Potentially Ness, potentially Snake, potentially Lucina (for Pichu, not sure if Pikachu's think it might be losing for them).Do Pikachu and Pichu players generally see any noticeably bad matchups? I’ve seen nothing but polarizing opinions, and the only general agreement they seem to come up with is that they lose to Olimar.
From what I've seen, many Chrom players seem to think they lose, because they get edgeguarded.I would argue that Lucina and Chrom, aka the consistent blades, win the matchups, especially Lucina.