Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Hydreigonfan01]

Glutonny posted his new recent thoughts on Wario

Wario is feeling really weird (weak) in this new méta
I need to find a different playstyle to fit in
Being in the air with all these hitboxes feels too dangerous
More grounded game might be a solution but people mixup so well their aerial that Wario oos dont feel so good anymore

— SLY | Glutonny (@GlutonnySSB) February 21, 2022

 

[MrGameguycolor]

I think DK is on the lower end of the tier list in this game, but being on the lower end doesn't mean that he shouldn't be respected (same applies to other characters like Ganondorf, Little Mac, and Dr. Mario). And props to SlushieV1 for taking him so far in the tournament.

That's kind of the problem with just writing off characters as Mid or Low tier since everyone has their own wild definition as well as how there are few-to-none truly bad characters in this game.

Labels such as Upper Half or Bottom 10 are much more universally clear, so good on you for getting it.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Thought I'd just post every character that has won a major so far post-quarantine. I'll continue to update as the year goes along. It counts Kagaribi 3, InfinityCON 2021, Kagaribi 4 + every Japanese major won by Proto, Ultimate WANTED 3, Summit 3, Temple Hermes Edition, Riptide + every major won by MkLeo, Glitch 8.5, Smash Con Fall Fest, Kagaribi 5, Seibugeki 9, VCA 2021, CEO 2021, LMBM 2022, Kagaribi 6 and Glitch Infinite.

In case you're wondering where Richter came from, Shuton used the character at Seibugeki 9.

Edit: won as a secondary at InfinityCON 2021.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Thought I'd just post every character that has won a major so far post-quarantine. I'll continue to update as the year goes along. It counts Kagaribi 3, InfinityCON 2021 + CEO 2021, Kagaribi 4 + every Japanese major won by Proto, Ultimate WANTED 3, Summit 3, Riptide + every major won by MkLeo, Glitch 8.5, Smash Con Fall Fest, Kagaribi 5, Seibugeki 9, VCA 2021, LMBM 2022, Kagaribi 6 and Glitch Infinite.

In case you're wondering where Richter came from, Shuton used the character at Seibugeki 9.

Which major was the DDD used at?

 

[StrangeKitten]

S'been baffling me that DK gets placed bottom 5 in tier lists I come across to this day. Don't get me wrong, he has a lot of flaws, but that speed, range, and kill power are damn good, on top of an absurd advantage state once he gets going. Definitely seems like around middle of mid material to me. He's got what it takes to threaten a lot of the cast well.

It's worth keeping in mind just how swingy Ultimate is, too. Sure, on paper, a character like DK should rarely, if ever, succeed. But in practice, he's one of the heaviest characters in the game, it's more tricky to exploit his weak recovery than you'd think, and if you're a character with lacking kill power, you could well be facing down a DK with a lot of rage. That's scary, and can lead to DK seeing a surprising amount of success.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Which major was the DDD used at?

VCA 2021. Peli played King Dedede during some sets, even reverse 3-0'ing Space with the character.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Thought I'd just post every character that has won a major so far post-quarantine. I'll continue to update as the year goes along. It counts Kagaribi 3, InfinityCON 2021, Kagaribi 4 + every Japanese major won by Proto, Ultimate WANTED 3, Summit 3, Temple Hermes Edition, Riptide + every major won by MkLeo, Glitch 8.5, Smash Con Fall Fest, Kagaribi 5, Seibugeki 9, VCA 2021, CEO 2021, LMBM 2022, Kagaribi 6 and Glitch Infinite.

In case you're wondering where Richter came from, Shuton used the character at Seibugeki 9.

Didn't Kola use Snake at InfinityCon 2021?

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

Didn't Kola use Snake at InfinityCon 2021?

Yeah, I found out that he did use Snake against Aaron.

 

[Diddy Kong]

S'been baffling me that DK gets placed bottom 5 in tier lists I come across to this day. Don't get me wrong, he has a lot of flaws, but that speed, range, and kill power are damn good, on top of an absurd advantage state once he gets going. Definitely seems like around middle of mid material to me. He's got what it takes to threaten a lot of the cast well.

It's worth keeping in mind just how swingy Ultimate is, too. Sure, on paper, a character like DK should rarely, if ever, succeed. But in practice, he's one of the heaviest characters in the game, it's more tricky to exploit his weak recovery than you'd think, and if you're a character with lacking kill power, you could well be facing down a DK with a lot of rage. That's scary, and can lead to DK seeing a surprising amount of success.

DK has amazing advantage yeah. But it's often easier to get him into disadvantage. He does have overall powerful stage presence however, and I don't think he should be compared with Ganondorf or Little Mac, because he has better matchups and does the things they're supposed to be doing better. DK should be a lower middle tier, not bottom 10.

 

[Rizen]

I've played vs on and offline and I think it might be a losing MU for Wolf. MM is really good at shutting down Wolf's midrange game, where he usually wins heftily. He walls Wolf really well and pellets are faster than blaster. It's an MU you never see though so it's hard to be sure. Anyone else know this MU?

 

[Sucumbio]

I've played vs on and offline and I think it might be a losing MU for Wolf. MM is really good at shutting down Wolf's midrange game, where he usually wins heftily. He walls Wolf really well and pellets are faster than blaster. It's an MU you never see though so it's hard to be sure. Anyone else know this MU?

Not too many matches found but I did find this one where CDK does indeed lose the set vs Kameme.

 

[F4lcoMain]

DK has amazing advantage yeah. But it's often easier to get him into disadvantage. He does have overall powerful stage presence however, and I don't think he should be compared with Ganondorf or Little Mac, because he has better matchups and does the things they're supposed to be doing better. DK should be a lower middle tier, not bottom 10.

From my experience, the only area where DK is comparable to Mac and Ganondorf is his recovery. As a Falco player, I think his recovery is easier to exploit than Ganondorf / Mac since he has some massive blindspots in his Up B making it easier to hit from the top w/ Dair (which can kill DK around 30%) or from the bottom w/ Nair. Ganondorf's recovery can be annoying to edgeguard if I miss-space Fair / Nair and is a bit more dangerous since I have to go lower. I don't think he is remotely comparable to them outside of his recovery though. I am more scared of Mac / Ganon's button's in a vaccum than DK's, but I am more scared of DK in practice due to him being heavier, having more range, Cargo Throw, Giant Punch, and his air mobility and threat range being better (letting him better pressure the top platform on battlefield / dream land / yoshi's).

 

[Gleam]

Just as update, Orion has been updated and, probably quite unsurprising, a certain blocky character is crawling his way up the ranks to be a Top 10 character of today's stats. I said Steve was a Top Tier from his inception and with the prolonged beating he gave in Glitch, it's really starting to produce some fruit now.

OrionStats - Smash Ultimate 2022 TTS (Updated December 23rd, 2022)

TTS Page & Character Results - Phase 6 Tournaments,Region ,Date,Category,Point Total,Notes,Overall Score - Category 1-5,International Score - Category 3-5,Regional Score - Category 1-2 <a href="https://www.start.gg/tournament/super-smash-con-2022/event/ultimate-1v1-singles/brackets/1182318/18298...

docs.google.com

 

[Gleam]

Just as update, Orion has been updated and, probably quite unsurprising, a certain blocky character is crawling his way up the ranks to be a Top 10 character of today's stats. I said Steve was a Top Tier from his inception and with the prolonged beating he gave in Glitch, it's really starting to produce some fruit now.

OrionStats - Smash Ultimate 2022 TTS (Updated December 23rd, 2022)

TTS Page & Character Results - Phase 6 Tournaments,Region ,Date,Category,Point Total,Notes,Overall Score - Category 1-5,International Score - Category 3-5,Regional Score - Category 1-2 <a href="https://www.start.gg/tournament/super-smash-con-2022/event/ultimate-1v1-singles/brackets/1182318/18298...

docs.google.com

However, another character that I think is been, kind of getting the cold shoulder is our boy Captain Falcon. Ever since those majors buffs he got in, whatever patch it was, people like Fatality and others have been absolutely destroying with this character. It seems that since that notion of his buffs, Falcon has consistently and routinely remained within the Top 10 section of Orion. Perhaps another character we need to move up from the Highs and back to the Tops?

 

[Frihetsanka]

By this logic, wouldn't Ness and Samus also be top tier? Results matter, but at the end of the day we can't just look at results and make a tier lists based on results alone.

 

[Gleam]

Actually yes, Ness himself has always gained decent results, ranging easily in the Top 15's minimum. Ness has always kind of been scraping the bottom of the Top Tier and now, thanks to people likes Scend and Gakt, he's clearly getting the results pushed forward even more. Fatality himself has been a huge success for Falcon these days, easily getting Top 16s and Top 8s from his tenure.

Now I'll have to see where Samus's overall status is coming from. Unlike Falcon or Ness, Samus's status as a Top 2 character is pretty fresh. I know where Ness and Falcon's numbers are coming from but Samus is rather new for me. But hey, she keeps it up, sure, I'll call her Top Tier. You don't get to Top 10 by dumb luck and stay there for several updates.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

By this logic, wouldn't Ness and Samus also be top tier? Results matter, but at the end of the day we can't just look at results and make a tier lists based on results alone.

Gonna say that I agree with Ness not being a top tier, but I actually think Samus could be. But then my top tier is like 20 characters, not just a top 10.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Speaking of the rankings, what exactly is stopping Roy from being definitively labeled the best character in the game? His placement on the ranking is significantly higher than the next few characters on the list.

 

[Gleam]

Probably because while one can infer Roy's current status as a "Top Tier" thanks to the great results he gets, it's also a note of the sheer popularity he has as a character. But to put in a specific numerical placement kind of requires you to get mathematical on the whole thing. What are the exact placements, how many Roys are there.

It's much easier to treat Roy as an overall Top Tier, certainly supported by his data instead of trying to force him into an exact location which could, very well change at the drop of a hat depending on players. I personally do not think we need, nor should, try to incorporate the aspect of "orders" when it comes to these characters.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I would argue the following: OrionStats is not, and has never been, clear evidence of where characters stand in a tier list. Even if we're only looking at results, which Ness players are getting top 3 at majors? Which Samus players? We can also look at previous lists and see how much they tend to vary (Pokémon Trainer and Snake used to be top 5 for quite some time, for instance). ROB was #1 for quite some time, yet the character is clearly not even close to the best in the game.

Any results right now are going to be limited anyways due to covid, with some players not traveling at all (very understandable).

If we are looking at results, it might be, in some way, better to look at the pre-covid results, since at least then people were able to travel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

In this, Ness is #26, Roy #12, Samus #34. Not that I think that we should use either of the lists as solid evidence. It's not nothing, but it's far from everything.

 

[Gleam]

I see very little reason to put emphasis on the results of what happened nearly 2 years ago.

But the real issue is that, I'm not sure why you're concept of "Tops" is limited to such a minimum result of just "Top 3" when I feel the majority would at least incorporate the Top 8 and many would still incorporate the Top 16. I don't see a reason to limit the requirements of Top to such a small number, when I feel the majority at the very least gives reward of some kind towards the Top 8.

 

[StrangeKitten]

Results alone isn't the best metric for measuring characters. But, they do count for something. Determining how good a character is should be a mix of both results and where they should be in a theoretical sense.

That said, I could pretty easily see Ness and Samus in top tier should they continue to make such strong showings. At least, if one's top tier is 15+ characters and not just reserved for the absolute best. I don't think such a placing would be unreasonable.

 

[Rizen]

I would argue the following: OrionStats is not, and has never been, clear evidence of where characters stand in a tier list. Even if we're only looking at results, which Ness players are getting top 3 at majors? Which Samus players? We can also look at previous lists and see how much they tend to vary (Pokémon Trainer and Snake used to be top 5 for quite some time, for instance). ROB was #1 for quite some time, yet the character is clearly not even close to the best in the game.

Any results right now are going to be limited anyways due to covid, with some players not traveling at all (very understandable).

If we are looking at results, it might be, in some way, better to look at the pre-covid results, since at least then people were able to travel: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...TcuC5TIvAxMC9fV6ZbxTsyx7Y/edit#gid=1982478003

In this, Ness is #26, Roy #12, Samus #34. Not that I think that we should use either of the lists as solid evidence. It's not nothing, but it's far from everything.

1st of all, I would argue that ROB is a contender for best in the game but that's beside the point. If keeping track of tournament placements is not clear evidence of the viability of characters then what are you left with? Just everyone with their own theories. People can build up any character in their heads; I know at least 2 players who think Ike is "unironically" top tier because he's strong at the locals I attend. When I first started playing smash tournaments in Brawl, I was convinced was a good character who needed a breakout performance (he's actually bottom tier). Eventually I played good people, informed myself and got over that delusion but what do you say to those people? Why is your opinion more valid than theirs?
Some opinions, like the above, are more farfetched than others so lets focus on the Ike is top tier ones. What would you say to a tournament player who frequently gets top 8 to tell them why Ike isn't? MKLeo won a major with him.
My personal response would be that Leo is an outlier and the meta has developed with better counter play to Ike because I look at trends. Ike doesn't have a trend of top tier performances. People want to win and are naturally drawn to characters who help them achieve this. Ike has not continued to preform at a top tier level. If Ike's good, why isn't he getting top 8 more; why don't top players use him? By identifying trends I can make mostly accurate predictions about the future to a certain margin of error. Smash isn't an exact science; people get banned or lose interest in characters. But I can say with confidence that Roy will outperform Ike at the next major tournament. Maybe he won't, maybe he will. Smash can surprise you. We'll have to wait and see.

 

[superjm]

Gonna say that I agree with Ness not being a top tier, but I actually think Samus could be. But then my top tier is like 20 characters, not just a top 10.

I feel like Samus has been slept on for close to the entire lifespan of Ultimate to this point. Partially because it wasn't very obvious just how much better Samus's tools work in this iteration of the game compared to Smash 4 even for those that weren't altered very much, along with the buffs and additions she did get just improving her kit even more. (seriously, being able to charge in the air was a MASSIVE gamechanger that I think doesn't get focused on enough. It means that not only does Samus keep her shot charged almost for free no matter what, but it gave her a powerful B reverse that greatly expands her aerial mobility options). And partially because the the stigma of the prototypical "wifi Samus" misled people as to what Ultimate Samus's gameplan actually is.

With that said, I did say "close to" because I don't think anyone's sleeping anymore. The recent high placing performances at notable events by quik, sisqui, IcyMist and Teaser, so say nothing of sisqui's dominant showings in the EU circuit in general is making people pay attention, and it'll be interesting to see how the character holds up as the meta continues to zero in on her potential threat level.

Fwiw, I think Samus has the tools to be a top tier contender for sure, but I also think she has some truly devastatingly bad matchups against key characters that will hamstring her in deep bracket runs. See Kola using a pocket Wolf as a counterpick against Teaser at their Georgia regionals for example. Even if it hasn't yet worked out as well as just using his Roy, that general threat even existing is something Samus players will inevitably have to deal with if its felt they need to be dealt with more seriously.

 

[Djmarcus44]

1st of all, I would argue that ROB is a contender for best in the game but that's beside the point. If keeping track of tournament placements is not clear evidence of the viability of characters then what are you left with? Just everyone with their own theories. People can build up any character in their heads; I know at least 2 players who think Ike is "unironically" top tier because he's strong at the locals I attend. When I first started playing smash tournaments in Brawl, I was convinced was a good character who needed a breakout performance (he's actually bottom tier). Eventually I played good people, informed myself and got over that delusion but what do you say to those people? Why is your opinion more valid than theirs?
Some opinions, like the above, are more farfetched than others so lets focus on the Ike is top tier ones. What would you say to a tournament player who frequently gets top 8 to tell them why Ike isn't? MKLeo won a major with him.
My personal response would be that Leo is an outlier and the meta has developed with better counter play to Ike because I look at trends. Ike doesn't have a trend of top tier performances. People want to win and are naturally drawn to characters who help them achieve this. Ike has not continued to preform at a top tier level. If Ike's good, why isn't he getting top 8 more; why don't top players use him? By identifying trends I can make mostly accurate predictions about the future to a certain margin of error. Smash isn't an exact science; people get banned or lose interest in characters. But I can say with confidence that Roy will outperform Ike at the next major tournament. Maybe he won't, maybe he will. Smash can surprise you. We'll have to wait and see.

Just as there are surface level and detailed result analysis, there is surface level and detailed theory. Based on your post, it seems like the 2 players were misguided by surface level results analysis instead of theory. They see Ike's performance in your area, and believe Ike is top tier due to these results. While it would be a harder process, comparing Ike's matchup chart to top tier matchup charts might be able to show that Ike isn't top tier.

While perfect theoretical analysis is incredibly difficult to achieve due to the roster size, there are still ways to assess the strength of theoretical arguments. Thinking about all strengths and weaknesses relative to the cast is a big factor in good theory. A common pitfall in assessing character viability is not knowing the capabilites of every character. This leads to overrating characters because they can do certain things and underrating other characters by incorrectly assuming they can't do certain things. Another big factor is assessing matchups and tool interactions. If the assessment of tools doesn't line up with the assessment of matchups, the opinion could use some more research and/or testing.

Theoretical analysis does have plenty of room for subjectivity because players may value the strengths and weaknesses differently. It is difficult to know the capabilites of over 80 characters let alone compare them to each other. Results provide a more objective reference point, but there is room for subjectivity when comparing character popularity at a high level vs. peak performances. In addition results are subject to outside influences such as player skill and attendance. Both methods have to be used wisely in order to draw sensible conclusions.

 

[Diddy Kong]

From my experience, the only area where DK is comparable to Mac and Ganondorf is his recovery. As a Falco player, I think his recovery is easier to exploit than Ganondorf / Mac since he has some massive blindspots in his Up B making it easier to hit from the top w/ Dair (which can kill DK around 30%) or from the bottom w/ Nair. Ganondorf's recovery can be annoying to edgeguard if I miss-space Fair / Nair and is a bit more dangerous since I have to go lower. I don't think he is remotely comparable to them outside of his recovery though. I am more scared of Mac / Ganon's button's in a vaccum than DK's, but I am more scared of DK in practice due to him being heavier, having more range, Cargo Throw, Giant Punch, and his air mobility and threat range being better (letting him better pressure the top platform on battlefield / dream land / yoshi's).

This might simply be the matchup, because of the way Falco's D Air works, it was always a great tool against DK's recovery, not to mention the lasers being annoying for DK, I think it always was a favorable matchup for Falco outside of maybe Smash 4. But Falco was definitely one of DK's worst, if not THE worst matchup in Melee and Brawl.

Thing is, DK can change tides and very quickly. He doesn't need to land many hits,and he has the tools to actually connect the hits. He's similar in this regard to Mewtwo, but doesn't have the glass canon stuff going on (they both die to stupid stuff though due to Mewtwo being so light and DK having terrible recovery). Both are similar that they can really end a stock upon a good read, and make kill combo strings quite easily, with the trade-off that you can't possibly afford getting hit.

My take for best in the game is simply Aegis, they've been dominant since release and won't water down any time soon, especially with Leo taking interest in the character. His Pyra specifically will be a force to reckon with, giving his experience with Byleth who's similarly explosive.

If I had to make a Top 5, I'd put Pikachu second, and wouldn't know how to rank characters further, but Palutena, Roy and R.O.B. would definitely be amongst these 5. Roy probably at spot number 3.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

My take for best in the game is simply Aegis, they've been dominant since release and won't water down any time soon, especially with Leo taking interest in the character. His Pyra specifically will be a force to reckon with, giving his experience with Byleth who's similarly explosive.

If I had to make a Top 5, I'd put Pikachu second, and wouldn't know how to rank characters further, but Palutena, Roy and R.O.B. would definitely be amongst these 5. Roy probably at spot number 3.

I think Roy might have his results overflown because not only is he a character people liked back when he was bad in Melee and Smash 4, but because Georgia and Florida don't really care about COVID compared to other regions, meaning they open up faster and those regions have Roy as the most popular character with Kola, Goblin and Mugen being the top 3 Roy's in America, who live in Georgia/Florida respectfully. I think Joker has to be considered in that upper echelon too, if you're counting Pikachu with that character's lack of results, then Joker absolutely counts even with very few using the character other then Zackray and eMass.

 

[Sucumbio]

Aegis Joker Pikachu Rob Roy Palutena Pac-Man Steve PT Sonic Fox Lucina.

My top 12 in order.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This might simply be the matchup, because of the way Falco's D Air works, it was always a great tool against DK's recovery, not to mention the lasers being annoying for DK, I think it always was a favorable matchup for Falco outside of maybe Smash 4. But Falco was definitely one of DK's worst, if not THE worst matchup in Melee and Brawl.

Thing is, DK can change tides and very quickly. He doesn't need to land many hits,and he has the tools to actually connect the hits. He's similar in this regard to Mewtwo, but doesn't have the glass canon stuff going on (they both die to stupid stuff though due to Mewtwo being so light and DK having terrible recovery). Both are similar that they can really end a stock upon a good read, and make kill combo strings quite easily, with the trade-off that you can't possibly afford getting hit.

In Larry Lurr's most recent video, he says the - MU isn't that bad since is a good combo weight for DK & is generally forced to get in 's swatting range. (Also helps that he plays both characters. lol)

Though IMO many Up-Close Brawlers don't seem to have too much of an advantage against each other compared to Zoners or Swordies.
A similar point can be made for the - MU.


To be honest, it's not that controversial to say that range is dominant in this game. lol

 

[NairWizard]

range and speed will always be relevant, but OOS, disadvantage mixups, and ledgetrapping are the kings of the current meta

 

[MrGameguycolor]

range and speed will always be relevant, but OOS, disadvantage mixups, and ledgetrapping are the kings of the current meta

OOS, good landing aerials, flexible mobility, and preferably a good disjoint/long-range tool is the meta.

In Sm4sh, I was Frame Data > Disjointed Range, but now everyone has some of that Frame Data, so Disjointed Range it is. lol

 

[toonito]

IMO the best characters in Ultimate are a mix of the following: /

im not convinced on ive seen the same "Pikachu busted" rhetoric in Brawl and Smash 4 and again it hasn't come to fruition. the Smash competitive community tends to eventually pick the consensus best character (?) in order to win. If was really that character more people would've picked him up bottom line. Fool me once...

Again if manages to get more reps and succeed at high and top level like the previous characters I mentioned I'd concede and agree that he could be the best in the game.

I value results over theory. Theorizing matchups and kits are fun but sooner or later they have to be proven otherwise its conjecture. Results aren't perfect but they can confirm or debunk theories on the meta.

 

[KirbySquad101]

How much you believe OrionStats factor into a character's viability depends on your experience/philosophy, but I think there's an undeniable truth in that the characters who got da big numbers at the top are the ones that are influencing the meta the most.

If I'm a high/top level player and I'm going to a wide scale tournament like Glitch Infinite expecting a Ness/Steve blowout like what happened there, then you can best bet I'll factor in my character choices and how well each one does against Ness or Steve. Not because they're top tier (though they could be, I dunno), but because those characters combined are taking up nearly 20% of Glitch's top 32. In that moment, suddenly having a good Steve/Ness MU matters a hell of a lot more than having a good Palu or Wolf MU.

This isn't to say having good MUs against more uncommon characters like Pika, GnW, Shulk, ZSS, and/or Pac-Man doesn't matter, because it's still nice to have, but those also aren't the characters you should be worried about facing unless you're projected to fight one, which is far less likely than fighting one of the dozen ROB's or Ness's swimming around.

I am convinced Pythra are the best characters in the game currently even if their OrionRank isn't reflective of that, but if you were to ask me right now if I'd rather have a good Roy MU or a good Pythra MU, I'd take handling the flame sword boy anyday. At least until he stops showing up in every Top 32 in groups of 4-5.

 

[F4lcoMain]

This might simply be the matchup, because of the way Falco's D Air works, it was always a great tool against DK's recovery, not to mention the lasers being annoying for DK, I think it always was a favorable matchup for Falco outside of maybe Smash 4. But Falco was definitely one of DK's worst, if not THE worst matchup in Melee and Brawl.

Thing is, DK can change tides and very quickly. He doesn't need to land many hits,and he has the tools to actually connect the hits. He's similar in this regard to Mewtwo, but doesn't have the glass canon stuff going on (they both die to stupid stuff though due to Mewtwo being so light and DK having terrible recovery). Both are similar that they can really end a stock upon a good read, and make kill combo strings quite easily, with the trade-off that you can't possibly afford getting hit.

My take for best in the game is simply Aegis, they've been dominant since release and won't water down any time soon, especially with Leo taking interest in the character. His Pyra specifically will be a force to reckon with, giving his experience with Byleth who's similarly explosive.

If I had to make a Top 5, I'd put Pikachu second, and wouldn't know how to rank characters further, but Palutena, Roy and R.O.B. would definitely be amongst these 5. Roy probably at spot number 3.

Yeah, Falco's edgegaurding abilities against DK are a unique quality to him that I am not sure how well other characters can necessarily replicate. I am assuming that Wolf and Byleth can spike DK pretty easily with their Dair and Up-B respectively, but this is just an assumption and not based on anything I've done in a match or seen play out.

I think Falco wins the match-up, though I am not sure to what extent. Somedays, I get absolutely thrashed by DK since his range, cargo throw, and kill power with moves like Giant Punch are big threats, but recently, I have been winning the match-up more online. I have been edgeguarding DK's recovery with Dair and Nair, and getting extremely close to DK, where it is very hard for him to challenge Falco's better frame data. Attacking DK's shield with moves like Fair and D-Tilt shield pokes him enough to where Up-Tilt will hit him, leading to an easy combo into something like Nair or Up air. Speaking of Up-tilt, because of its high vertical range, its actually very hard for DK to challenge it and land with his aerials (maybe wavebounce Down B can help him land, but idk). If Falco is trying to land against DK, it can also be hard, but Falco's Side B lets him escape DK's pressure fairly comfortably unless he is on a platform. I think at high level, this match-up may be -2, but it is a bit difficult to theorize since DK can blow Falco up in disadvantage and his range and mobility are a bit difficult to contest in neutral. I think this match between Masa and Tubasuwa does a good job of illustrating some of Falco's advantages in the match-up.

On the topic of Falco, something that I have been doing recently to escape difficult situations offstage is using double jump -> Side B to go on the top Battlefield Platform instead of to the ledge. I am not sure how viable of a stategy this is at high level play, but it is a nice option to have against characters with good 2 framing and ledge trapping options like Wolf or if the opponent goes off-stage. Are there any other characters that have recovery mix-ups like this?

 

[StrangeKitten]

IMO the best characters in Ultimate are a mix of the following: /

im not convinced on ive seen the same "Pikachu busted" rhetoric in Brawl and Smash 4 and again it hasn't come to fruition. the Smash competitive community tends to eventually pick the consensus best character (?) in order to win. If was really that character more people would've picked him up bottom line. Fool me once...

Again if manages to get more reps and succeed at high and top level like the previous characters I mentioned I'd concede and agree that he could be the best in the game.

I value results over theory. Theorizing matchups and kits are fun but sooner or later they have to be proven otherwise its conjecture. Results aren't perfect but they can confirm or debunk theories on the meta.

Heavily agree with this. If really is the best, then why are Esam's results only so-so, with him getting big wins on occasion but also often placing below top 8? We're talking someone who has played Pika since Brawl, and sure, Pika isn't exactly the same as the past two games, but still similar enough. He's had more than enough time to practice Ultimate Pika and... not really the results a character who is "absolute best of the best b-b-busted" should be getting. And if it's an Esam issue, if there's something lacking in Esam's play, then why aren't the Pikas doing better than him? But they do worse, by a good amount at that. I've felt for a while that excuses such as "but he's a hard character to play!" just don't really hold up. Joker is considered hard, but we've seen him dominate. Diddy is considered hard, but we've had some dominance from him, too. As of right now, I can agree that Pika is top 10, maybe top 5, but I remain skeptical of the "zomg broken absolute best in the game!" mentality that has persisted since Pichu got nerfed.

 

[Arthur97]

In general, whatever you think of results, the best in the game should not have such poor results. Even if they are absolutely the best on paper, if they can't prove it in practice, what's the point?

 

[Sucumbio]

Ignore the echoes cuz idk but DOWN B TIER LIST

Joker and Ness were hard to rank specifically pic.twitter.com/lguDDmD0bz

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) February 22, 2022

ESAM! Needs to get better using his boi than making obscure lists!

(Nah he cool I find these interesting)

 

[Rizen]

Ignore the echoes cuz idk but DOWN B TIER LIST

Joker and Ness were hard to rank specifically pic.twitter.com/lguDDmD0bz

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) February 22, 2022

ESAM! Needs to get better using his boi than making obscure lists!

(Nah he cool I find these interesting)

I noticed he has 's bombs a tier above 's. YL's bombs spawn a few frames slower but explode faster and deal more damage. The problem with YL's bombs is they lose to hitboxes and bounce away. Do TL's bombs explode on contact with hitboxes? That's the only way I can see them being a tier apart.

 

[F4lcoMain]

Ignore the echoes cuz idk but DOWN B TIER LIST

Joker and Ness were hard to rank specifically pic.twitter.com/lguDDmD0bz

— ESAM (Stride Esports) (@imESAM) February 22, 2022

ESAM! Needs to get better using his boi than making obscure lists!

(Nah he cool I find these interesting)

I like how he put Pyra / Mythra's Down B in the Transformations don't count, but put Pyra's in mid lol

I am guessing she represents one of the Mii's alternative down specials, but it still is a bit funny w/o any context.

Aside from that, I think he is being a bit too harsh on Piranha Plant's and DDD's down B, though the might just be a lot more obnoxious to deal with online than offline.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

In general, whatever you think of results, the best in the game should not have such poor results. Even if they are absolutely the best on paper, if they can't prove it in practice, what's the point?

Sucks to be unpopular. lol

But seriously, results in this game aren't that important for judging tiers.