Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[DelugeFGC]

Samus is probably the best she's ever been with our new Charge Shot shenanigans.

She's still middle tier at best.

While Samus is the best she's ever been, the meta she's in isn't as kind to her as it could've been. Like in Melee, she has a ton of good tools, especially in neutral.. but once neutral is lost Samus becomes a bag of problems in most MU's. Her advantage state isn't that great and outside of the occasional juggle, every bit of % you rack will come from neutral exchanges until it finally yields a kill. Any character capable of breaking through the wall of Samus will also usually just start absolutely bodying her into disadvantage.

She's a character with an AMAZING neutral and some pretty alright punish game, but damned near everything else about her holds her back. In a game with a disadvantage / advantage state as heavy as Ult, it harkens back to Melee where the good tools Samus has just aren't enough to allow her to keep up with the higher tier characters in this fast meta.

 

[meleebrawler]

While Samus is the best she's ever been, the meta she's in isn't as kind to her as it could've been. Like in Melee, she has a ton of good tools, especially in neutral.. but once neutral is lost Samus becomes a bag of problems in most MU's. Her advantage state isn't that great and outside of the occasional juggle, every bit of % you rack will come from neutral exchanges until it finally yields a kill. Any character capable of breaking through the wall of Samus will also usually just start absolutely bodying her into disadvantage.

She's a character with an AMAZING neutral and some pretty alright punish game, but damned near everything else about her holds her back. In a game with a disadvantage / advantage state as heavy as Ult, it harkens back to Melee where the good tools Samus has just aren't enough to allow her to keep up with the higher tier characters in this fast meta.

For (Dark) Samus, advantage is more than just how many hits she strings together in a true combo. Every hit she lands is a chance to charge her beam (if she isn't using uncharged shots to set up things at low percents) and pressure the opponent's landing with it and missiles, plus those stray hits are actually pretty hard-hitting, almost like a traditional heavyweight.

 

[Heracr055]

Speaking of which, one more week until Prime Saga, so any last minute predictions/hopes for that tournament?

1)The curse doesn't get broken
2) Quite a few zss players scoring in the top 64 but not in top 16 (guessing one ZSS in top 8)
3) Trela and Locus will likely underperform (I really hope they do well, though)
4) This saga's results (or lack thereof) determine Ridley's relevance for the next year or so (without assuming any significant buffs/nerfs in the patches)
5) Samus players will outplace Dark Samus players (but won't do well overall with 1 or 2 exceptions)
6) Leo wins Prime Saga

To add something relevant, I think that Samus will settle around the high end of mid. She was improving towards the tail end of 4 results wise and she pretty much just got better in this game. The general speed increase isn't much of a detriment to her zoning game either.

 

[meleebrawler]

1)The curse doesn't get broken
2) Quite a few zss players scoring in the top 64 but not in top 16
3) Trela and Locus will likely underperform
4) This saga's results (or lack thereof) determine Ridley's relevance for the next year or so (without assuming any buffs/nerfs im the patches)
5) Samus players will outplace Dark Samus players (but won't do well overall with 1 or 2 exceptions)
6) Leo wins Prime Saga

To add something relevant, I think that Samus will settle around the high end of mid. She was improving towards the tail end of 4 results wise and she pretty much just got better in this game. The general speed increase isn't much of a detriment to her zoning game either.

Less lag on non-full charge shots, LLoid Super Missiles and the return of contact-explosive bombs all seem like changes geared to help deal with a faster engine.

 

[Smartz]

I've actually seen some pretty slippery stuff preformed with Dark Samus, that doesn't justify her being high tier tho lmao. I really can't speak to knowledgeably on this topic sadly as I have only played Dark Samus for about 3 hours and have only touched Samus in some iron man melee matches I did for a fund raiser for St, Judes at a tournament a while back. (I pulled the super wave dash off after trying to do it on stage 6 times )

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I don't think this tournament will dictate how relevant Ridley, the samus and ZSS will be in the future metagame unless one of them wins the tournament, personally I will wait until the end of summer to make any solid statement about if a character is relevant (this is for high tiers and mid tiers)

 

[Crooked Crow]

Doesn't that make still the best iteration with that one being high-mid?

For starters, there's considerably more characters in this game. Middle tier in Ultimate could very well be the equivalent of high-mid or even high tier in Melee; but loses really badly against and , and has an uphill battle against , , and . I don't think, outside of , Samus has any hard counters in Ultimate. Overall, I'd say / is the best I've seen Samus.

 

[Rizen]

imo I think Young Link is one of DDD's better high tier matchups despite his stupid zoning game and great advantage state due to the fact that young link simply cant kill him until 230. But it's more of DDD taking twice as much damage to the face while having 50% more survivability. I mostly have an issue with him in even mid-range mostly just due to the fact that since runaway and camping is such an exploitable strategy against DDD. He often has to run up f-tilt or up-tilt with gordo and inhale being a bit too slow to really be reliable in midrange unless you want to B Reverse inhale through mixing up landings so it can hit through shields. He's not completely awful but I'd say a contender for bottom 10 right above K Rool makes sense.

The myth YL can't kill until 200% needs to die. YL can combo Bair1 into Fsmash on big characters at 140%. I usually kill DDD at 160-200% but that happens to everyone. DDD's tanky as heck.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The myth YL can't kill until 200% needs to die. YL can combo Bair1 into Fsmash on big characters at 140%. I usually kill DDD at 160-200% but that happens to everyone. DDD's tanky as heck.

Is YL the New Wolf I reckon? I remember the meme that Wolf "cant kill" since he lacked consistent setups. But yeah that thought faded when we all realized Wolf has a myriad of effective kill options , which he can do well with how effectivley he racks up damage. Even killing around 70% with a well-timed bair or d-smash at the ledge. Seriously that seems almost funny now in hindsight

I have seen Tweek's YL and kill around 110 with setups into up-b. Honestly that and all his other potential kill-confirms fully optimised could be scary AF

 

[DelugeFGC]

For (Dark) Samus, advantage is more than just how many hits she strings together in a true combo. Every hit she lands is a chance to charge her beam (if she isn't using uncharged shots to set up things at low percents) and pressure the opponent's landing with it and missiles, plus those stray hits are actually pretty hard-hitting, almost like a traditional heavyweight.

Yeah but that's the problem, she's a character that lives and dies entirely by neutral exchanges, and that only goes so far the further you go up the tiers in different MU's. The Samus package is all about the neutral, and that's great, but it leaves some pretty lacking areas that hurt her. Samus can't kill for **** offstage without Charge Shot reads, so any edge guarding on your part is going to be entirely damage racking unless they're at some ungodly high percent when you catch them with FAir or UAir. NAir doesn't have the knockback you want to get stuff done offensively offstage, it's pretty reactionary and defensive as a move. DAir has a lot of startup and the hitbox on it isn't fantastic, 2-framing with it is a total nightmare.

The bombs are pretty alright for, again, damage, but that's basically all most of her kit amounts to. You rack up some damage in neutral or offstage until eventually you rack charge shot, once in a blue moon you'll kill with a smash attack, DTilt or some ungodly high % aerial but.. otherwise that's about as deep as Samus / DS gets barring a few elements of her punish game.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

MUs in general seem drastically more important than individual character strengths outside of the tippy-top-tiers, so a lot of this isn't too surprising. Most of the high-mid and up parts of the cast seem completely viable outside of very specific MU, for ex. Samus VS Olimar, ZSS VS super short characters, etc.

 

[MG_3989]

I'm hoping to see a Ness come out and show off. I really think he has the possibly to be one of the best characters in the game but it would take a LOT of knowledge and a consistent ability to set up PSI Magnet confirms.

I really don't think we need any more proof results and kit wise that Ness is a high tier character who is going to stay relevant in this meta. Do I think Ness has been optimized fully yet? Not even close but I people have started coming around to the idea of Ness being really good and isn't going away. One of the best in the game, I don't know...if you count the top 20 characters or so as best in the game then yes Ness is one of the best characters in the game. I believe Ness sits somewhere between 15-25 with the potential to go higher (I really don't see him dropping lower than that but that's an opininion)

Purely results wise Ness is inarguably one of the best characters in the game but it's still early. A couple major top 8s (not that Ness has been performing badly at majors with almost always multiple Ness mains in top 64) then you have an argument for one of the best characters in the game. I'm not holding my breath though and I don't think anybody would be surprised at a Ness top 8 or higher run and I'm not convinced that it would or should change the perception of how good the character is

Everyone knows he's good now. He has the neutral, movement options, combo potential, abilitly to play lame and kill potential that makes him a high tier character probably somewhere around 20. Even pros who doubted that are coming around to that idea now. However that doesn't take away Ness's disadvantage state and recovery weaknesses (while seriosuly overblown, Ness isn't free offstage and his DAD+Magnet give him an at least average recovery imo). Still those weaknesses exist and while Ness does win a good portion of top and high tier MUs he does have a fair bit of 55/45 and -1 type MUs (nothing really too much worse than that, maybe Shulk, I haven't watched the FOW vs Nicko sets yet, and he can win against any character in the game, but that still has to be accounted for). So one of the best characters in the game? I don't know about that. Solid high tier character cabaple of taking top 8s and winning majors in the right hands? That I know is true

 

[DelugeFGC]

I really don't think we need any more proof results and kit wise that Ness is a high tier character who is going to stay relevant in this meta. Do I think Ness has been optimized fully yet? Not even close but I people have started coming around to the idea of Ness being really good and isn't going away. One of the best in the game, I don't know...if you count the top 20 characters or so as best in the game then yes Ness is one of the best characters in the game. I believe Ness sits somewhere between 15-25 with the potential to go higher (I really don't see him dropping lower than that but that's an opininion)

Purely results wise Ness is inarguably one of the best characters in the game but it's still early. A couple major top 8s (not that Ness has been performing badly at majors with almost always multiple Ness mains in top 64) then you have an argument for one of the best characters in the game. I'm not holding my breath though and I don't think anybody would be surprised at a Ness top 8 or higher run and I'm not convinced that it would or should change the perception of how good the character is

Everyone knows he's good now. He has the neutral, movement options, combo potential, abilitly to play lame and kill potential that makes him a high tier character probably somewhere around 20. Even pros who doubted that are coming around to that idea now. However that doesn't take away Ness's disadvantage state and recovery weaknesses (while seriosuly overblown, Ness isn't free offstage and his DAD+Magnet give him an at least average recovery imo). Still those weaknesses exist and while Ness does win a good portion of top and high tier MUs he does have a fair bit of 55/45 and -1 type MUs (nothing really too much worse than that, maybe Shulk, I haven't watched the FOW vs Nicko sets yet, and he can win against any character in the game, but that still has to be accounted for). So one of the best characters in the game? I don't know about that. Solid high tier character cabaple of taking top 8s and winning majors in the right hands? That I know is true

I disagree with a lot of that, I only see Ness dropping with time and I don't view him as getting a whole hell of a lot more optimized. Ness is pretty basic. If either of the two is gonna grow, it'll be Lucas. I think a big part of Ness results are EXACTLY because it's so early.

He's a high mid-tier, realistically. Once this MU gets more ground in, a fair bit (30+, easily) of the roster isn't going to have a really hard time playing around the Ness neutral gimmicks and such. He's by no means a bad character, but I can think of more than 20 I'd call better.

Ness is not a character with some sort of intense demand, he's fairly basic with some gimmicks thrown in, some good tools and some kill power. There's really not a whole hell of a lot of room to optimize him further unless / until patches change him significantly. Characters like Falcon, Ken/Ryu, Ice Climbers and Mewtwo are the ones I'd expect to see growing a lot with time.

 

[MG_3989]

I disagree with a lot of that, I only see Ness dropping with time and I don't view him as getting a whole hell of a lot more optimized. Ness is pretty basic. If either of the two is gonna grow, it'll be Lucas. I think a big part of Ness results are EXACTLY because it's so early.

He's a high mid-tier, realistically. Once this MU gets more ground in, a fair bit (30+, easily) of the roster isn't going to have a really hard time playing around the Ness neutral gimmicks and such. He's by no means a bad character, but I can think of more than 20 I'd call better.

Ness is not a character with some sort of intense demand, he's fairly basic with some gimmicks thrown in, some good tools and some kill power. There's really not a whole hell of a lot of room to optimize him further unless / until patches change him significantly. Characters like Falcon, Ken/Ryu, Ice Climbers and Mewtwo are the ones I'd expect to see growing a lot with time.

There is more to optimize with him with magnet, I didn't say there was a ton to optimize but there is more than most characters. Ness's chances of dropping are exactly the same as anybody elses. Also Ness's neutral is not a "gimmick". Ness doesn't really win with "gimmicks", he has a legit neutral, a combo game and advantage state up there with almost anyone in the game, he has the ability to kill consistently and early in diverse ways with confirms and raw moves something that a lot of characters even some high and top tier are missing, and on top of that he's one of the best edge guarders and jugglers in the game. He even has the ability to play lame and slow the game down when needed and while he's not an ideal zoner, he's slippery and has two great projectiles. Neither his recovery nor disadvantage states are great and are weaknesses but these weaknesses are overblown and his strength greatly outweigh them. He has one of the best DADs in the game and he has Magnet to mix up landings. And Magnet is not a gimmick, it's a phenomenal tool for mix ups, combos, confirms, and movement. It's just needs to be used correctly

He also does have a rather high level of demand at the top level. Thinking otherwise shows a lack of knowledge about the character. Ness has been in every single Smash game to date, he's not performing well off gimmicks he's performing well because he's a good character and if you checked the results it's not just with the usual dedicated Ness mains either

Until his results actually drop off you really don't have a basis for calling 20+ characters better than him. I'm not going to argue this further because we've done this before in this thread too many times. It's been more than enough time to adjust to Ness if he was a "gimmick" and his results haven't dropped off. It's fine if you don't regard him as highly as me but we'll have to agree to disagree on this

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I disagree with a lot of that, I only see Ness dropping with time and I don't view him as getting a whole hell of a lot more optimized. Ness is pretty basic. If either of the two is gonna grow, it'll be Lucas. I think a big part of Ness results are EXACTLY because it's so early.

He's a high mid-tier, realistically. Once this MU gets more ground in, a fair bit (30+, easily) of the roster isn't going to have a really hard time playing around the Ness neutral gimmicks and such. He's by no means a bad character, but I can think of more than 20 I'd call better.

Ness is not a character with some sort of intense demand, he's fairly basic with some gimmicks thrown in, some good tools and some kill power. There's really not a whole hell of a lot of room to optimize him further unless / until patches change him significantly. Characters like Falcon, Ken/Ryu, Ice Climbers and Mewtwo are the ones I'd expect to see growing a lot with time.

quick side-note; character optimization pertains to MUs too. With 70 something characters, it going to take a while to for that to happen.

 

[Avokha]

Behold high level Robin gameplay!

Here we can see how robin can really utilise the changes in the ultimate engine, and how the character can use their tools to really shine in higher levels. Make of these what you will.

 

[Rizen]

Is YL the New Wolf I reckon? I remember the meme that Wolf "cant kill" since he lacked consistent setups. But yeah that thought faded when we all realized Wolf has a myriad of effective kill options , which he can do well with how effectivley he racks up damage. Even killing around 70% with a well-timed bair or d-smash at the ledge. Seriously that seems almost funny now in hindsight

I have seen Tweek's YL and kill around 110 with setups into up-b. Honestly that and all his other potential kill-confirms fully optimised could be scary AF

I think hitting with options that aren't as fast in this game (like Wolf's f13 Bair and Dsmash) are more viable than SSB4 due to the general safety, 6f input lag and shield changes. People were used to seeing confirms of things like Marth's jab or Sheik's Ftilt and assumed stray hits were bad options.

YL has good confirms but a lot of the early kills are stage position based. Dtilt>jump upB starts working around 90% before the hit but you need to have the opponent backed against the ledge. It's very hard to optimize YL because you constantly need to be aware of stage positioning, opponent's floatiness and %s while working with an uncooperative target. Take the Fair1>land>Dtilt>jump upB kill confirm for example (it's possible to simply start with Dtilt but harder to land). At 0-15ish% Fair1 confirms into nothing. Then jab, which is 2f faster than Dtilt for a small window. Then Fair1 confirms into Dtilt at around 25% which confirms into Nair. After maybe 50% it's more damage to Fair1>Dtilt>Uair. Around 60-70% I start going for Dtilt>Fair (for damage not kills). Then from 90-120% you can get kills with Fair1>Dtilt>jump upB but floaty characters pop up from Fair1 too much for Dtilt to hit after 110% so vs them it's best to Fair1>Dsmash by the ledge or Usmash if not by the ledge. After 125%ish Fair 1 pops everyone up too much and you should just Fair1>Usmash. Then vs super heavyweights who survive Usmash and have big bodies you can Fair1>Fsmash at around 135%ish but this has a good chance of missing small characters. The problem is Fsmash is f15 and Fair1/Bair1 doesn't start confirming into it until about 135% when most things die more easily to Fair1>Usmash.

This is just 1 confirm string and the opponent's positioning changes depending on their weight and floatiness. If they shield Fair1 you can try for a dodge but there's a good chance you'll get grabbed. It's extremely hard to micromanage all these factors in your head while fighting an opponent. Plus you need to watch spacing and not do unsafe things. This is why not many people get really good with YL . While YL is doing all this stuff Wolf can simply Bair and kill you at 90%.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Good Diddy play here, showcases well why I think Diddy in Ultimate still has untapped potential:

Also shows why Diddy vs Pichu isn't a bad matchup for Diddy. In fact, I think it's pretty damn even and this match shows it well.

And in general, it's a very hype match to watch.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

imo I think Young Link is one of DDD's better high tier matchups despite his stupid zoning game and great advantage state due to the fact that young link simply cant kill him until 230. But it's more of DDD taking twice as much damage to the face while having 50% more survivability. I mostly have an issue with him in even mid-range mostly just due to the fact that since runaway and camping is such an exploitable strategy against DDD. He often has to run up f-tilt or up-tilt with gordo and inhale being a bit too slow to really be reliable in midrange unless you want to B Reverse inhale through mixing up landings so it can hit through shields. He's not completely awful but I'd say a contender for bottom 10 right above K Rool makes sense.

Wait what? Ylink one of d3's worst MUs. Not even sure if you're being serious right now.

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Alright fellas so I got a guy to compile Bayonetta's hitboxes, and I drew a conclusion on them. Big wall of text so I put it in spoilers.

The biggest difference is without a doubt Witch Twist, it's just absolutely depressing now.

This is with the Beta Hitbox visualizer, and while it isn't 100% accurate, if anything the hitboxes will only be smaller than the ones shown, and to add Bayonetta has minimal bone stretching.

Spoiler: Text wall

Here ya go!

For comparison here were her S4 Hitboxes:

Jab 1 no longer covers Bayonetta's back, and no longer goes so low

Jab 2 is much smaller and no longer covers Bayonetta's body

Jab 3 is now one big hitbox, and is argueably bigger

Jab 4 has more smaller hitboxes in place of less larger ones

Dash Attack is slightly more to the right, giving it a bigger disjoint.

Final hit of up tilt is much smaller, with no compensation for the previous hitboxes being more to the right which may be the cause for falling out.

Dtilt has more smaller hitboxes in place of less larger ones

Ftilt 1 is nearly identical but covers slightly less of Bayonetta

Ftilt 2 doesn't go as low as before

Ftilt 3 is slightly less on the outside side, slightly more on the top, still a giant janky mess.

Up, Side, and Down Smash cannot be compared as we don't have the exact S4 hitboxes.

Nair appears to be identical, held nair has a very small blindspot (basically nonexistant) that the S4 version didn't

Uair starts ever so slightly later, making the beginning trail not line up with it.

Bair has a much much much smaller sweetspot

Fair 1 has less range on the top and bottom

Fair 2 is slightly less in the back and slightly less on the top

Fair 3 is identical

Dair landing hitbox seems to have been removed, and the leg just continues to be the landing hitbox I guess. That or it isn't showing up.

Witch Twist has a smaller hitbox on her, it is less behind her and is the reason she can no longer hit behind her. The later hitboxes are smaller on both sides, and have much less vertical range.

Heel Slide has more smaller hitboxes in place of less larger ones. Held Heel Slide covers Bayonetta's torso, and starts slightly higher, although the blindspot is basically nonexistant.

ABK wasn't provided and I can't make judgement on it.

DABK seems identical to the 1.1.6 hitbox. DABK landing was not provided.

TL;DR
Buffed:
Dash Attack, Held Heel Slide, Jab 3, Ftilt 3

Identical/ nearly identical:
Jab 4, DTilt, Nair/ Held Nair, Held Uair, Fair 3, Heel Slide, DABK

Minimal Nerf:
Ftilt 1, Ftilt 2, Fair 2,

Nerf:
Jab 1, Jab 2, Utilt, Uair, Bair, Fair 1, Dair, Witch Twist

Can't Say:
ABK, DABK Landing

 

[Crooked Crow]

Yeah but that's the problem, she's a character that lives and dies entirely by neutral exchanges, and that only goes so far the further you go up the tiers in different MU's. The Samus package is all about the neutral, and that's great, but it leaves some pretty lacking areas that hurt her. Samus can't kill for **** offstage without Charge Shot reads, so any edge guarding on your part is going to be entirely damage racking unless they're at some ungodly high percent when you catch them with FAir or UAir. NAir doesn't have the knockback you want to get stuff done offensively offstage, it's pretty reactionary and defensive as a move. DAir has a lot of startup and the hitbox on it isn't fantastic, 2-framing with it is a total nightmare.

The bombs are pretty alright for, again, damage, but that's basically all most of her kit amounts to. You rack up some damage in neutral or offstage until eventually you rack charge shot, once in a blue moon you'll kill with a smash attack, DTilt or some ungodly high % aerial but.. otherwise that's about as deep as Samus / DS gets barring a few elements of her punish game.

I am not sure I agree with all these points. I think you're over-simplifying Samus.

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah but that's the problem, she's a character that lives and dies entirely by neutral exchanges, and that only goes so far the further you go up the tiers in different MU's. The Samus package is all about the neutral, and that's great, but it leaves some pretty lacking areas that hurt her. Samus can't kill for **** offstage without Charge Shot reads, so any edge guarding on your part is going to be entirely damage racking unless they're at some ungodly high percent when you catch them with FAir or UAir. NAir doesn't have the knockback you want to get stuff done offensively offstage, it's pretty reactionary and defensive as a move. DAir has a lot of startup and the hitbox on it isn't fantastic, 2-framing with it is a total nightmare.

The bombs are pretty alright for, again, damage, but that's basically all most of her kit amounts to. You rack up some damage in neutral or offstage until eventually you rack charge shot, once in a blue moon you'll kill with a smash attack, DTilt or some ungodly high % aerial but.. otherwise that's about as deep as Samus / DS gets barring a few elements of her punish game.

This whole post reads like theorycrafting about what you think Samus should play like based off of some time in Elite Smash and messing around in training mode with her for 15 minutes.

An example: Samus uses CS for conditioning and movement. If you get killed by full charge CS, the Samus player was reading you the whole time.

They don’t need to do this. At all. Small charge/low charge CS is used as a reliable kill confirm into other things, like Fsmash. Samus will rarely keep a full charge CS for very long because it limits her options to a large degree.

Other examples: Nair is a great move both on and off stage and absolutely kills; bombs are way, way more useful than just “damage”; this idea that her disadvantage is that bad when she has multiple ways to get to the ground; that she is anything but a monster when you are offstage, etc.

Like, bombs wreck whole characters offstage. Samus can force reactions with run off CS and then doube jump Nair and then you die. She is a beast off stage.

Seriously. Watch YB.

 

[Y2Kay]

NJ is going crazy rn at Suplex City

Jakal > Marss (3-0!) and Sinji

Leon > Nairo

James > Dabuz

Wishes > Light

 

[IsmaR]

Bowser in top 8 on Winner's side doesn't surprise as much as I feel like it should.

LeoN's patience during these sets is the perfect tortoise and the hare allegory.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

NJ is going crazy rn at Suplex City

Jakal > Marss (3-0!) and Sinji

Leon > Nairo

James > Dabuz

Wishes > Light

Nj best region.

 

[MG_3989]

NJ is going crazy rn at Suplex City

Jakal > Marss (3-0!) and Sinji

Leon > Nairo

James > Dabuz

Wishes > Light

I'm rooting for somebody from NJ to take it. Gotta rep my home state. Now that DarkMatter is out as long as somebody else from NJ wins I'm happy

 

[The_Bookworm]

NJ is going crazy rn at Suplex City

Jakal > Marss (3-0!) and Sinji

Leon > Nairo

James > Dabuz

Wishes > Light

Let's go Shoyo and Wishes!

A Bowser in top 8 winner's is pretty cool as well (and taking out the #1 Bowser player in SSB4 is also some poetic justice as well).

 

[KirbySquad101]

Yeesh, Light, Nairo, Marss, and Dabuz wasted no time in climbing back into Top 8 lol

It's gonna be a bloodbath in the Loser's Brackets.

 

[DelugeFGC]

This whole post reads like theorycrafting about what you think Samus should play like based off of some time in Elite Smash and messing around in training mode with her for 15 minutes.

An example: Samus uses CS for conditioning and movement. If you get killed by full charge CS, the Samus player was reading you the whole time.

They don’t need to do this. At all. Small charge/low charge CS is used as a reliable kill confirm into other things, like Fsmash. Samus will rarely keep a full charge CS for very long because it limits her options to a large degree.

Other examples: Nair is a great move both on and off stage and absolutely kills; bombs are way, way more useful than just “damage”; this idea that her disadvantage is that bad when she has multiple ways to get to the ground; that she is anything but a monster when you are offstage, etc.

Like, bombs wreck whole characters offstage. Samus can force reactions with run off CS and then doube jump Nair and then you die. She is a beast off stage.

Seriously. Watch YB.

I don't even play quickplay dude, but it's fine that you have opinions. Lol. Having possible options doesn't amount to jack when none of them are consistent in several MU's. Lots of characters can do lots of things, even low tiers, and you'll see results of all kinds ESPECIALLY this early. My views on the matter won't be changing. I floated DS as a counterpick for some of Falcon's trickier matchups at local's and weekly's for a bit, and I'm not the only person to drop them for similar reasons.

I can name a million 'great examples' from a million moves, but as the meta moves on and just going for those options is very difficult, it doesn't mean much.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Let's go Shoyo and Wishes!

A Bowser in top 8 winner's is pretty cool as well (and taking out the #1 Bowser player in SSB4 is also some poetic justice as well).

Doesn't make sense according to this thread heavyweights are supposed to be falling off and can't keep up in this game. Oh well now that's Bowsers got some results time to talk him up.

 

[Victory.IsMyDestinySSB4]

would you kindly explain this analysis regarding bayo, luigi, and IC's?

Bayo is being played by Samsora online and against other top players, and being fairly successful at cranking out wins.
Luigi and Icees have very intricate combos that have yet to realize their full potential.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wizzy beat Light!!!!

 

[Phoenix_is_OK]

Bayo is being played by Samsora online and against other top players, and being fairly successful at cranking out wins.
Luigi and Icees have very intricate combos that have yet to realize their full potential.

Say what you want about Samsora, the issue with Bayonetta is that she had 99.9% of her tech squeezed out in Smash 4, and in this game she has even less of it.

Stuff like Recovery Frame cancel with Down Air and autocancelled DABK and frame 1 Heel Slide are all gone, and Bullet Climax isn't as effective. The craziest tech about the character, minus her triple jump, is gone. And to make matters worse her recovery frames are either 1 frame quicker or up to 10 frames slower.

The point I'm making here is that Ultimate Bayonetta tech is already at it's peak. It doesn't get any better, it simply cannot because every option has been taken into account with the character, and we now have a techy, fully explored character thanks to the last game, that can't go anywhere with it.

You watch Lima and Tamim play and they just push her to the limit from the get-go. 90% of Bayonetta's cool, game winning stuff comes off a hard read, or from you opponent putting down the controller. The new airdodges were supposed to help Bayonetta's combos, but given how gimped they were it had the adverse effect. I don't think any other character has her oddly specific issue of not being able to kill.

Granted, people claim the character can rack up percent easily but when your combos stop working at 120%, and you kill at 170%, you have to **** around for a minute to get even close to closing a stock. Her individual moves even stop working at high percents. Up Tilt at 190% doesn't connect properly at all for example. Which really sucks because Up Tilt into Back Air is one of her best "save me" KO options, and that's messed up.

She's a stupidly linear character in the neutral. If you have a disjoint, you effectively win the matchup because she can't get in. Her gameplan is literally built around punishing, but you have zero incentive to approach her. If she tries to pressure you (held Nair, BC, bullet arts) you can immediately punish her. She either goes for unsafe move on shield #3 or fakes you out and goes for a grab that leads up to nothing. In a game with frame 6 Nairs, Bayonetta's has 10 frames of landing and is the 4th weakest knock back wise.

What little good she has is what little good she will have. While the Bayonetta Ult game plan has taken off, the counterplay hasn't. This character is going to get destroyed once any decent player learns the matchup specific tips:
Don't DI up
You can SDI out of Rapid Jab and Up B
You can tech her grounded side B
Her quickest kill move is frame 9
Her kill throw is 170%~ at the ledge
Punish her landing
Airdodge out of everything if you are both in the air

Character is dead as is and I highly doubt she is going to win anything unless 3.0.0 fixes her. Because at this point I think she can win more tournaments if she wasn't in the game.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Looking at Suplex City. Why did so many (myself included in Chrom's case) think Chrom or Palu verhyped or overated? They may not be top-tier but there pretty close to it

 

[Dream Cancel]

Behold high level Robin gameplay!

Here we can see how robin can really utilise the changes in the ultimate engine, and how the character can use their tools to really shine in higher levels. Make of these what you will.

Hey, any idea what control set-up Jul uses? I haven't been using much Robin lately because, unlike Smash 4, Tilt stick always produces a Bronze aerial now. I'm interested in how he manages the Levin sword so well. Many Robin players are having difficulty with Robin due to this change alone, and is why you're not going to see many Robins. (Smash 4 veteran Robins, anyways)

It seems like he's either really good at b-reversing/wavebouncing or has a should button set to special, but does use A+B smash? Maybe Smash stick and a shoulder button set to attack? No idea but he's clean.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I can't wait to analyze that Light vs Wishes set, if I can figure out where to watch it. Honestly I think that Fox wins the PT/Fox match up since he's really good at zonebreaking Ivysaur and harassing Charizard in general. Leffen believes PT loses -2 to Fox, and the much more optimistic Wishes himself listed Fox as -1 for the trainer as one of is only two losing match ups.

All of Fox's main weaknesses are exploitable by PT (easily comboed by Squirt, struggling offstage or at the ledge against Ivy and Zard), but getting him into those positions can be really hard. Fox has zero issues zonebreaking Ivyaur and approaching or baiting Charizard, and he has a fantastic advantage state to exploit their poor disadvantage states with.

I really want to see how Wishes deals with that. Winning a losing match up, and against Light of all players, is no easy feat.

 

[bc1910]

Samsora weighs in on the recent Ultimate bashing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This doesn’t apply to Tweek but in many other cases I think he’s absolutely right and I’m glad someone wasn’t afraid to say this.

It’s no coincidence that the players doing best (Dabuz, Nairo, Samsora himself) have amazing smash fundamentals including pressing the advantage stage extremely well which is an underrated skill right now.

Ultimate is also significantly more balanced than any other game in the series along with having a massive roster and I think a lot of players are having trouble with this. ZeRo in particular is struggling without a Brawl MK/S4 Diddy/S4 Sheik to blast through the competition with. There is plenty of silliness and some easy characters, but no truly busted top tiers who can churn out consistent results with no effort. High tiers and even mid tiers can put in serious work in this game.

 

[DelugeFGC]

Samsora weighs in on the recent Ultimate bashing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This doesn’t apply to Tweek but in many other cases I think he’s absolutely right and I’m glad someone wasn’t afraid to say this.

It’s no coincidence that the players doing best (Dabuz, Nairo, Samsora himself) have amazing smash fundamentals including pressing the advantage stage extremely well which is an underrated skill right now.

Ultimate is also significantly more balanced than any other game in the series along with having a massive roster and I think a lot of players are having trouble with this. ZeRo in particular is struggling without a Brawl MK/S4 Diddy/S4 Sheik to blast through the competition with. There is plenty of silliness and some easy characters, but no truly busted top tiers who can churn out consistent results with no effort. High tiers and even mid tiers can put in serious work in this game.

The top tiers in Ult are a far cry from the 'SS' tier rank characters in other games, just like how the low and mid tiers of Ult are a hell of a lot better than those in a game like Melee. This is bar-none the most balanced (and, imo, best) Smash to date and I have no doubts a lot of people are struggling without a Bayonetta, Cloud or a Diddy (4).. or a MK or a ZSS (Brawl).. or a Fox or a Puff (Melee).. or a Kirby / Pikachu (64) to carry them in tougher MU's. We've seen some incredible imbalance before in Smash, and Ultimate ain't it chief, issues aside.

At this point, if people can't handle x, y or z.. go play something else. I don't say that to be particularly rude or anything, but Smash definitely isn't for everyone and there's MANY other games, including other Smash games. Ultimate is huge, competitively and casually, and it's pretty clear it's not going anywhere and at least for the current moment seems to have a bright future ahead. If people want to bash the game because they can't hock it at a tournament or get results, either git gud and work on improving.. or go play something else. There's too few seconds in life to waste it doing something you evidently don't enjoy, but at the same time don't waste it complaining because the game isn't specifically what YOU want either. People complaining are stupid, that's my TL;DR take.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Samsora weighs in on the recent Ultimate bashing.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

This doesn’t apply to Tweek but in many other cases I think he’s absolutely right and I’m glad someone wasn’t afraid to say this.

It’s no coincidence that the players doing best (Dabuz, Nairo, Samsora himself) have amazing smash fundamentals including pressing the advantage stage extremely well which is an underrated skill right now.

Ultimate is also significantly more balanced than any other game in the series along with having a massive roster and I think a lot of players are having trouble with this. ZeRo in particular is struggling without a Brawl MK/S4 Diddy/S4 Sheik to blast through the competition with. There is plenty of silliness and some easy characters, but no truly busted top tiers who can churn out consistent results with no effort. High tiers and even mid tiers can put in serious work in this game.

This is legit what I said about Ryu players.

Can't go ham with nair carries so now they are exposed. Don't even know how to punish moves that are -10 on block AFTER shield drop, with a simple frame 5 dsmash.

I do feel Ultimate has REAL issues we should not ignore like how parry in this game has one of the smallest windows in any fighting game while at the same time, being a commitment, and offers minimal reward. It's honestly nonsense. But in terms of rewarding fundamentals AND limiting degenerate play, this Smash does it the best.

ZeRo is struggling because he is not a serious competitive player.

He is a content creator/streamer with a consistent source of income.

Basically, he is very intelligent.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Results for Suplex City

1st: Nairo
2nd: Shoyo James
3rd: Wishes
4th: Dark Wizzy
5th: LeoN
5th: Light
7th: Marss
7th: Dabuz
9th: Laid
9th: Mr E
9th: JaKaL
9th: Juice
13th: Jul
13th: Gen
13th: Raffi-X
13th: Bankai


Another strong placing for Palu, Chrom, PkMn Trainer, and Mario.
Bowser finally gets a result that brings in high level attention, which is amazing to see (thought I do think he is underrated).