Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.

Pretty sure I said Greninja might be top tier a while ago, I predicted it before it was cool.

And this is just after less than 3 months, imagine what Greninja will be able to do in a year. Scary character, especially if other top tiers get nerfed and Greninja doesn't.

 

[NotLiquid]

If stroder gets to top 8 you will see top players saying they knew he was top tier and start hyping him up as their new main and then dropping him because X reason.

He already is in Top 8.

Also I've been playing the frog this weekend and he's fun as heck. I think I'll keep him as a co-main. Not sure how to deal with swordies tho.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Not sure how to deal with swordies tho.

Many Lucina players consider Greninja their worst matchup, so that's something.

 

[Y2Kay]

I was hoping Greninja would be able to stay under the radar a little longer, but alas, the secret is out.

No balance team worth their chops would have poor enough hindsight to nerf the more mainstream top tier like Peach, Olimar, and Pichu and not adjust Greninja's reward on dash attack at least.

Then again, this character is still difficult to play, at least in comparison to characters that are dominant. His mobility needs some tighter control, especially since his pressure is only scary if he spaces his attacks. He doesn't blow through and invalidate enemy's gameplans or rely on super ignorant buttons, but rather surgically picks apart his enemy's neutral with well placed aerials, whiff punishes, and approaching at awkward angles with his insane ability.

Greninja's placements so far, are incredible, especially when you consider that his entire playerbase is mostly fresh blood compared to other top tiers' playerbases (no brawl veterans are playing this character seriously in bracket to my knowledge, besides Ninjalink, he doesn't come to much anymore tho, I guess Plup would be our only veteran, but he's super new), so I only really think it can go up from here.

 

[Rizen]

Many Lucina players consider Greninja their worst matchup, so that's something.

So -1? What kind of numbers are we talking? How does Greninja do against other top and high tiers?

 

[Frihetsanka]

So -1? What kind of numbers are we talking? How does Greninja do against other top and high tiers?

Probably -1, yeah. Pichu seems pretty Even.

 

[Y2Kay]

He goes even with , he can have a hard time keeping up with damage output sometimes. His damage output is really good, but theirs is simply absurd. It's probably just a tier behind them though, more along the lines of .

Greninja's record against has been sus, but I still feel confident that it's an even MU. Hopefully Stroder knows the MU better than Lea did.

When it comes to top tier match up spread, Greninja is mainly a swordsman slayer, especially slower swordsman like Marcina. He goes about even with everyone else.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Pokémon Trainer is an interesting. Individually, we're probably talking about two low tiers (or low-mid tiers) and one mid tier (potentially high-mid). Squirtle struggles to kill and Charizard is Charizard (seems a bit worse, individually, compared to Smash 4 from what I've seen, though I'm hardly an expert on Charizard or Pokémon Trainer). Being able to switch between different characters depending on the situation is very useful though, and makes it so the character is likely a high tier character.

Ivysaur down-air should not be underestimated, it destroys certain recoveries.

 

[Browny]

I often argue that PT is a very shallow chartacter and that the ability to swap to charizard and squirtle makes no difference to its viability or difficulty, since solo ivysaur is actually a better character than the combination of the three (since using squirtle or charizard is just a liability and makes you worse).

https://clips.twitch.tv/BreakableObliqueMallardVoteNay

But what good are words, when videos do it so much better. Count it. 0 smash attacks. 0 tilts. 0 jabs. It literally only needs half of its moveset to dominate. A character fundamentally can not be 'complex' if it only needs 8 moves to win wheres everyone else needs 15 or so.

 

[blackghost]

He goes even with , he can have a hard time keeping up with damage output sometimes. His damage output is really good, but theirs is simply absurd. It's probably just a tier behind them though, more along the lines of .

Greninja's record against has been sus, but I still feel confident that it's an even MU. Hopefully Stroder knows the MU better than Lea did.

When it comes to top tier match up spread, Greninja is mainly a swordsman slayer, especially slower swordsman like Marcina. He goes about even with everyone else.

to be far most of the cast that is either rushdown or combo heavy vs snake is just bad. the bayo discord sees snake as the second worst mu in the game for her (pichu is the worst). grenade messes with bayo too much. i'd guess it messes up greninja as well.

 

[Sean²]

Pokémon Trainer is an interesting. Individually, we're probably talking about two low tiers (or low-mid tiers) and one mid tier (potentially high-mid). Squirtle struggles to kill and Charizard is Charizard (seems a bit worse, individually, compared to Smash 4 from what I've seen, though I'm hardly an expert on Charizard or Pokémon Trainer). Being able to switch between different characters depending on the situation is very useful though, and makes it so the character is likely a high tier character.

Ivysaur down-air should not be underestimated, it destroys certain recoveries.

You mean "most" recoveries, right? By far easiest spike in the game. The ability to turn games around or put yourself at a huge advantage out of just one exchange at the ledge is pretty monumental.

I often argue that PT is a very shallow chartacter and that the ability to swap to charizard and squirtle makes no difference to its viability or difficulty, since solo ivysaur is actually a better character than the combination of the three (since using squirtle or charizard is just a liability and makes you worse).

https://clips.twitch.tv/BreakableObliqueMallardVoteNay

But what good are words, when videos do it so much better. Count it. 0 smash attacks. 0 tilts. 0 jabs. It literally only needs half of its moveset to dominate. A character fundamentally can not be 'complex' if it only needs 8 moves to win wheres everyone else needs 15 or so.

I don't think Squirtle is a liability. His combo ability can rack up so much on heavies and fastfallers, and on some characters it's basically a free 50% just by winning an exchange with Squirtle. I mean, I agree that you can get more mileage from solo Ivysaur than you can any of the other Pokemon, considering the stupid confirms he has. Maybe some matchups would benefit more from solo Ivysaur, but knowing Squirtle adds a lot of depth to your game. His low profile alone makes things hard for some characters.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I often argue that PT is a very shallow chartacter and that the ability to swap to charizard and squirtle makes no difference to its viability or difficulty, since solo ivysaur is actually a better character than the combination of the three (since using squirtle or charizard is just a liability and makes you worse).

https://clips.twitch.tv/BreakableObliqueMallardVoteNay

But what good are words, when videos do it so much better. Count it. 0 smash attacks. 0 tilts. 0 jabs. It literally only needs half of its moveset to dominate. A character fundamentally can not be 'complex' if it only needs 8 moves to win wheres everyone else needs 15 or so.

I haven't had a chance to watch that whole video yet because I don't want to burn too much data, but does that one clip really repesent PT match ups as a whole? Luigi is a character with average mobility and poor range, which makes him weak to disjoints.

I'd link the Leffen/MKLeo match from Genesis 6 here if I wasn't on data. Even though he ultimately lost, Leff's Ivysaur really struggled while Squirt did a lot of the heavy lifting. In match ups where Ivy is outranged or outzoned, you're doing yourself a huge disservice by benching Squirtle.

 

[PK Gaming]

https://clips.twitch.tv/BreakableObliqueMallardVoteNay

But what good are words, when videos do it so much better. Count it. 0 smash attacks. 0 tilts. 0 jabs. It literally only needs half of its moveset to dominate. A character fundamentally can not be 'complex' if it only needs 8 moves to win wheres everyone else needs 15 or so.

I'm not sure how this clip at all supports your argument. Most smash attacks in this game are niche by nature and Ivysaur's jab/tilts aren't that great. The part of the match you clipped primarily focuses on Ivysaur playing pressing its advantage against a character with a poor disadvantage state, not too dissimilar from how Fox relies on a small set of moves in advantage state. It's a bit strange to call him out for not using smashes in that clip in particular when he used fsmash to great effect in the set.

Don't get me wrong, I also think Ivysaur is pretty one dimensional as a character, but this a pretty disingenuous post on your part.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I often argue that PT is a very shallow chartacter and that the ability to swap to charizard and squirtle makes no difference to its viability or difficulty, since solo ivysaur is actually a better character than the combination of the three (since using squirtle or charizard is just a liability and makes you worse).

https://clips.twitch.tv/BreakableObliqueMallardVoteNay

But what good are words, when videos do it so much better. Count it. 0 smash attacks. 0 tilts. 0 jabs. It literally only needs half of its moveset to dominate. A character fundamentally can not be 'complex' if it only needs 8 moves to win wheres everyone else needs 15 or so.

This is a very very specific instance that cannot speak for PT consistently. Too narrow.

Also, this a bit late, but patch culture was me referring to how people ask for buffs or nerfs, or are readily accepting of quick patches. Attitudes of the community and the actions of the game devs (in this current age) dictate how long a game will last.

 

[Browny]

Squirtle certainly did work vs Leos Ike, I remember that. Outside of a few matchups, and usually only considering the early game in those matchups, Ivy seems to dominate the rest though. Wherever PT is rated on a tier list, I still can't imagine it being rated much higher than had we just assumed solo ivysaur. It certainly doesn't take the character from mid tier, to tournament winning viable or anything.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Squirtle certainly did work vs Leos Ike, I remember that. Outside of a few matchups, and usually only considering the early game in those matchups, Ivy seems to dominate the rest though. Wherever PT is rated on a tier list, I still can't imagine it being rated much higher than had we just assumed solo ivysaur. It certainly doesn't take the character from mid tier, to tournament winning viable or anything.

Kind reminder that Squirtle is just a tiny, lighter version of Diddy without a Banana and without kill confirms, or at least not as easy as Diddy's. I still think Diddy vs Ike is still in Diddy's advantage, and he does well against all the other swordsmen as well, even Cloud whom he struggled against greatly in Smash 4 (worst matchup by far). I also think Diddy can handle Fox and Pichu. But he struggles against the likes of Olimar, Snake and Inkling. I also think he beats Lucina and Marth, because they are rather slow and easily punishable by the Banana.

Overall, Diddy seems to have quite a lot of even matchups. And that was the same in Smash 4, despite being a Top Tier, Diddy always had a lot of 50-50 matchups for the greatest part except a few noticable advantages in the Higher and Top Tiers. I think he's much the same now. Then again, I change my mind about him all the time because his disadvantage is just... bad.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Results for Ultimate Nimbus

1st: Light
2nd: ESAM
3rd: Salem
4th: Mr. R
5th: Stroder
5th: ZD
7th: Tweek
7th: Pandarian
9th: MastaMario
9th: Eon
9th: Leffen
9th: Charliedaking

 

[NotLiquid]

Salem literally picked up Snake the other week and went on a warpath this tournament. Would've actually made it into Grand Finals on Winners Side if Light didn't get a lucky break with the T&C platform.

You could feel his more ardent haters quaking in their boots with how immaculate his play was. Not gonna lie, he makes a good case of being better than Ally and possibly even MVD.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I drafted a post on this topic yesterday, but the thread veered in a totally different direction by the time I finished it and I thought it would have been awkward to just blurt it out.

Gone are the days of sitting in your bedroom for hours upon hours grinding out matchups and tech skill with a niche character you enjoy playing. Now come the days of high stakes competition and high profile sponsors. People stopped caring about any one person being the best at any given character some time ago, it’s about winning fast and as often as possible now. You’re getting performance reviews from a company you work for now, not just bodying locals in your hometown. You need a win now character to keep up.

This is the first time where a playerbase moved almost in its entirety from one game to a new one in Smash history with multi-million dollar companies already backing the top players, or at least eyeing up the competition from the get go. So I’m fearing that the already conceived top tiers may continue to get pushed, but all the ones that keep getting touted with “potential” will get snubbed in the long run. With top players not wanting to touch them beyond friendlies, they may be left to players who may not have the same exorbitant amount of time or energy for Smash to develop them.

Salem took a big gamble on Link, which is respectable. But he is a character that’s already showing that it takes more work to play him optimally than who all you’ve seen in grand finals of the last two super majors. Many would probably say there’s no reason to play Link when Snake exists. I know Liquid has been super lenient with the talent they support, lucky for him, but I can’t imagine that some of the other big teams would be tolerant of middling results for long.

I’m hoping it will balance out a bit more later on and that most of this is still just new game hype.

Edit: I guess I should add my context here...is that lower level players still like to follow in the footsteps of higher level players and parrot their arguments on certain things without understanding why besides the fact that “so and so agrees with this, you’re not better than so and so, why should I listen to you?” It’s a big echo chamber out there with a few figureheads blasting their megaphones down them. If anyone doesn’t believe me, check out some of the Smash subreddits sometime. The hivemind is real.

Quoting this because Salem is playing Snake now.

It's all proving to be as we said. Top players need results.

Not "potential".

 

[Foie]

Stroder defeated Leffen and Tweek.

Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.

I don't understand the controversy... The general consensus around here is 's somewhere around & . High or top tier, it's just a little too early to tell with his lower usage.

 

[blackghost]

Salem literally picked up Snake the other week and went on a warpath this tournament. Would've actually made it into Grand Finals on Winners Side if Light didn't get a lucky break with the T&C platform.

You could feel his more ardent haters quaking in their boots with how immaculate his play was. Not gonna lie, he makes a good case of being better than Ally and possibly even MVD.

he looks better right now surely at this point. mvd was eating a lot of players that had never faced snakes before. they werent used to tracking the mine and got hit by a lot of uptilts. mvd got lit up by awestin and other more veteran players tho.

 

[bc1910]

Pretty sure I said Greninja might be top tier a while ago, I predicted it before it was cool.

And this is just after less than 3 months, imagine what Greninja will be able to do in a year. Scary character, especially if other top tiers get nerfed and Greninja doesn't.

Greninja's been tearing up Japan since release and the West is catching up. When Sakurai starts wielding the nerf bat I doubt Gren will be much safer than Wolf and friends. That said, he’s clearly not a problem as such. His results aren’t as strong as others and he takes appropriate skill to use. He’s not as difficult to use as people think IMO but certainly harder than the other top tiers save the execution requirements of Peach, he doesn’t have brainless hitboxes and buttons with which you can plough through 90% of MUs. A character who rewards skill whilst retaining clear weaknesses, somewhat akin to Melee Fox, is the best kind of top tier to have.

This is assuming Gren even is top tier which is still up for debate. He’s doing well but characters like Snake and Chroy are doing just as well if not better lately.

His difficulty also makes him unpopular in Elite Smash; I can't see his win rate there being above average.

Please Sakurai leave him alone oh god not again

So -1? What kind of numbers are we talking? How does Greninja do against other top and high tiers?

There’s no community MU chart or even top player MU charts to go by but we can form some ideas based on observations in bracket and general consensus.

Greninja has the tools to fight every broad archetype well going by the gunner/sword/brawler (or “normal” according to Samsora) matrix, so his spread is strong overall.

His hardest archetype IMO is strong zoners who are still dangerous up close; think Snake and Mega Man, both characters who have proved difficult for Greninja in bracket. These two probably sit at -1 for now. Gren lacks the heavy zoning capability to contest them at long range but isn’t strong enough up close to consistently beat them at CQC; Snake has great ground moves and can blow himself up, Mega Man has leaf shield, and both have a strong grab game. Both have suspect disadvantage but not so bad that it swings the MU back toward even, unlike ROB and Belmonts who can give Greninja trouble for similar reasons (for Belmonts it’s midrange rather than CQC but it’s a similar effect overall) but get juggled and comboed for days.

A lot of Greninja players struggle with rushdown top tiers like Fox, Pikachu and Pichu, but there’s little if any evidence that he actually loses the MUs. I’d say Pikachu is the worst of the three and most likely to be losing if any of them are, this could be completely down to ESAM though who is the only Pika really laying the beatdown on Greninja players.

I wouldn’t feel ready to label any others with numbers yet. Wolf, Inkling and Palu all seem evenish, Palu could be slightly advantageous. Peach and Olimar could be even or slightly advantageous; note that nuances in the Olimar MU like his poor recovery and being able to substitute Pikmin keeps him from falling into the Snake/Mega group.

Marcina are slightly advantageous, this tends to be agreed by both sides. Chroy are even more advantageous MUs IMO, their recoveries and disadvantage are incredibly exploitable and the neutral is fine. Ike’s aerial swings operate in really annoying ranges for Greninja and he’s much harder to punish than Marcina but also easier to camp, combo and edgeguard. Likely a slight win, it’s all about dealing with his aerials, knowing when to challenge and not being afraid to just GTFO if needed.

I still think Greninja loses to Sonic but that’s kind of my own hot take and Sonic’s not that relevant so w/e.

Overall Gren’s spread is good, he may only lose a couple of high tier MUs. He goes even with most top tiers and has a smattering of advantages against swords.

 

[Scarlet Spyder]

Squirtle certainly did work vs Leos Ike, I remember that. Outside of a few matchups, and usually only considering the early game in those matchups, Ivy seems to dominate the rest though. Wherever PT is rated on a tier list, I still can't imagine it being rated much higher than had we just assumed solo ivysaur. It certainly doesn't take the character from mid tier, to tournament winning viable or anything.

I don't understand how people are still underrating Pokemon Trainer. This character is getting results. Consistent top 8/16s in some of the biggest tournaments (Wishes did well at Frostbite, Pandarian at Nimbus) and even more consistent wins in the local scene (see the Tourney Results thread). This character is good and is only going to get better as time goes on. People are going to optimize match-ups better and utilize the 3 Pokemon together in a more fluid manner.

Regarding your previous post, I think each of the 3 Pokemon are fairly simple individually. It's not difficult to determine their best moves and stick with those. What makes the character unique and more complex is switching between them depending on the situation. Part of that is understanding that Ivysaur simply bodies some other characters (usually ones it can outrange). Luigi has trouble with disjoints so it's not surprising that PT stuck with Ivysaur.

All in all, I think the future is bright for Pokemon Trainer. I think we'll see more consistent and higher placings as time goes on.

 

[TimG57867]

Speaking of ESAM can I just say that is performance yesterday was simply stellar? Quite a nice makeup after his less than stellar Frostbite performance and if not for an unfortunate off stage flub he stood a good chance of taking the whole thing.

What I especially appreciated though was the brilliant showcase of just how Quick Attack does for in both disadvantage and advantage. In his matches with Pandarian and especially Stroder, he Quick Attack not only allowed him to zone break supremely well and disrupt their game plan, but it allowed him to keep his opponents in disadvantage far longer than otherwise. Even whenever Stroder and Pandarian managed to avoid ESAM’s aerials off stage, they often get knicked by Quick Attack as they attempted to recover or get off ledge. This not only allowed ESAM to pressure them longer but made it far safer too as he could pressure with his aerials and Thunder and if he missed, he could Quick Attack into them before returning to stage to put himself in a safe spot while ensuring his opponent doesn’t get to reset Neutral all the same.

I also loved his usage of advancing D Tilts in those sets. While Pikachu’s D Tilt doesn’t have the combo to imagination properties that does, the greater range makes it much easier to stuff approaches and push his opponents to ledge and he made very good use of it against Pandarian. Speaking of which it humorously seems that the mascot of Pokémon can go the distance against . Pikachu has the small size, nimbleness, and frame data to stay on pace with , the zone breaking abilities and projectile needed to keep from controlling neutral, and the speedy buttons needed to work around ‘s range and abuse his disadvantage well. And Pikachu seemed more than capable of esgeguarding all of them. Pandarian never really was able to relax with any one Pokémon. He had to constantly switch it up to Lee ESAM from getting his rythum down and even then ESAM called out a lot the switches hard.

Plus with now a decisive win on Salem as well as Ally, the matchup is looking better and better for Pikachu and the mouse is really solidifying itself as one of the premier zonebreakers.

Overall great performance from him. His sets really highlighted a lot of the underrated advantages he has over his more explosive and popular pre evolution right now.

 

[Idon]

Dear God, I really feel that in a very similar parallel world, it would've been ESAM that made it to the summit.
That game was played on the razor's edge.

But yeah, ESAM is pretty much carrying the banner for Pikachu's viability and benefits over Pichu, especially being able to live some attacks that would've otherwise killed and using quick attack and nair extremely effectively.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Speaking of ESAM can I just say that is performance yesterday was simply stellar? Quite a nice makeup after his less than stellar Frostbite performance and if not for an unfortunate off stage flub he stood a good chance of taking the whole thing.

What I especially appreciated though was the brilliant showcase of just how Quick Attack does for in both disadvantage and advantage. In his matches with Pandarian and especially Stroder, he Quick Attack not only allowed him to zone break supremely well and disrupt their game plan, but it allowed him to keep his opponents in disadvantage far longer than otherwise. Even whenever Stroder and Pandarian managed to avoid ESAM’s aerials off stage, they often get knicked by Quick Attack as they attempted to recover or get off ledge. This not only allowed ESAM to pressure them longer but made it far safer too as he could pressure with his aerials and Thunder and if he missed, he could Quick Attack into them before returning to stage to put himself in a safe spot while ensuring his opponent doesn’t get to reset Neutral all the same.

I also loved his usage of advancing D Tilts in those sets. While Pikachu’s D Tilt doesn’t have the combo to imagination properties that does, the greater range makes it much easier to stuff approaches and push his opponents to ledge and he made very good use of it against Pandarian. Speaking of which it humorously seems that the mascot of Pokémon can go the distance against . Pikachu has the small size, nimbleness, and frame data to stay on pace with , the zone breaking abilities and projectile needed to keep from controlling neutral, and the speedy buttons needed to work around ‘s range and abuse his disadvantage well. And Pikachu seemed more than capable of esgeguarding all of them. Pandarian never really was able to relax with any one Pokémon. He had to constantly switch it up to Lee ESAM from getting his rythum down and even then ESAM called out a lot the switches hard.

Plus with now a decisive win on Salem as well as Ally, the matchup is looking better and better for Pikachu and the mouse is really solidifying itself as one of the premier zonebreakers.

Overall great performance from him. His sets really highlighted a lot of the underrated advantages he has over his more explosive and popular pre evolution right now.

Something that helped for ESAM against Ally, is that ESAM knows both the Ally and Snake matchup very well. He fought Ally (as well as his Snake in Brawl) many times, while having one of the best Snakes in the world at his side to practice with (MVD).

 

[Heracr055]

ESAM will continue to carry the banner for awhile, but hopefully his performance at Nimbus (& the past tournaments barring Frostbite) will motivate people to pick up Pika (I know it's working on me).
And as mentioned before it's possible that Pichu will get nerfed as well in future patches so that could be a side occurence that'll help build the Pika playerbase as Pichu players look for the best substitute.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So now people are starting to open up to the idea that Pichu isn't necessarily all that much better than Pikachu? Cool. I'm not saying Pikachu is necessarily better, but I do think it's a very real possibility, and given time Pichu might fall off a bit and Pikachu might rise.

It's also possible Pichu's lightning loops are broken, in which case Pichu might be a top 3 character. Time will tell whether they're broken or not (I don't trust Twitter combos, so far they seem pretty good but not broken).

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't understand how people are still underrating Pokemon Trainer. This character is getting results. Consistent top 8/16s in some of the biggest tournaments (Wishes did well at Frostbite, Pandarian at Nimbus) and even more consistent wins in the local scene (see the Tourney Results thread). This character is good and is only going to get better as time goes on. People are going to optimize match-ups better and utilize the 3 Pokemon together in a more fluid manner.

Regarding your previous post, I think each of the 3 Pokemon are fairly simple individually. It's not difficult to determine their best moves and stick with those. What makes the character unique and more complex is switching between them depending on the situation. Part of that is understanding that Ivysaur simply bodies some other characters (usually ones it can outrange). Luigi has trouble with disjoints so it's not surprising that PT stuck with Ivysaur.

All in all, I think the future is bright for Pokemon Trainer. I think we'll see more consistent and higher placings as time goes on.

Which Pokemon is the "MVP" in any given match (ie the one that wins neutral most easily) tends to either be Squirtle against heavy zoners, or Ivy against those lacking options for ranged combat. In both cases they use the Pokemon next in line to maximise advantage (Ivy's juggling is potent against those zoners that usually have slower air movement, and Zard's speed helps keep opponents from resetting due to Ivy's slowness). What Zard lacks in his ability to soundly win neutral he makes up for by being the glue holding the other two together, covering their shared weaknesses in revovery and sometimes closing stocks.

 

[bc1910]

So now people are starting to open up to the idea that Pichu isn't necessarily all that much better than Pikachu? Cool. I'm not saying Pikachu is necessarily better, but I do think it's a very real possibility, and given time Pichu might fall off a bit and Pikachu might rise.

It's also possible Pichu's lightning loops are broken, in which case Pichu might be a top 3 character. Time will tell whether they're broken or not (I don't trust Twitter combos, so far they seem pretty good but not broken).

Well for one thing they don’t work on every character. For the ones they do work on, they seem somewhat inconsistent. I feel like VoiD of all people would be able to pull them off nearly 100% of the time if they were truly consistent, considering how good he was with perfect pivot Sheik combos in Smash 4.

 

[J0eyboi]

Well for one thing they don’t work on every character. For the ones they do work on, they seem somewhat inconsistent. I feel like VoiD of all people would be able to pull them off nearly 100% of the time if they were truly consistent, considering how good he was with perfect pivot Sheik combos in Smash 4.

iirc Lightning Loops aren't real. SDI up prevents repetitions past the first, forcing you to go for a normal extension instead.

 

[N8than]

A Ness player won a tournament with 200 entrants in Australia yesterday. Here's the link:
https://smash.gg/tournament/phantom-2019/details

 

[IsmaR]

Good stuff Luco

Assuming they didn't go solo Ness/might have went Lucas in pools.

 

[N8than]

He didn't use Lucas, at least according to his twitter.

 

[Rizen]

As soon as I say needs a 2nd character to succeed, Scizor gets 13th at nimbus with solo Link. Although I do think Link players should have someone for his bad MUs. Losing Salem was a big blow to Link, not that I blame Salem. Snake outclasses Link. Similarly Tweek not going YL sucks for his results (he did partially use YL to win Frostbite doubles). Currently none of the Links have real top player representation. I'm a little surprised Salem didn't choose Greninja, considering he won a tournament with him in SSB4.

I think is a character who could really break out if a top player picked him up. PT's getting results and IMO YL's better than them. Currently players like Zan (Toomanycooks) and Skittles are putting in good work but don't measure up to top player tallant.

 

[Lore]

Link being so viable in general makes me happy. I've always wanted him to be solid; Zelda and Metroid were my two favorite Nintendo series while growing up.

Here's hoping Samus/Dark Samus/Ridley get up there too, eventually.

Stroder defeated Leffen and Tweek.

Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.

It's very satisfying to have been pushing for Greninja as solid and seeing results. Hopefully he dodges nerfs.

 

[SwagGuy99]

With all of the talk, I wanted to bring up my thoughts on the three Pokemon () and just share my thoughts on them.

is probably the best of the three. His ground speed is pretty average as is his air speed but his air acceleration is very good and his initial dash is a bit above average. feels similar to to me. He has no glaring weaknesses, but he struggles to kill and lacks range on some of his attacks, but neither of these issues are extremely hard to work around. Other than those two minor weaknesses, excels (or at least passes) in just about every other area. Recovery, comboing, edgeguarding, juggling, having what is probably top 5 frame data in Smash Ultimate (along with ) , having a small hurtbox, and being hard to combo, all make me think that he's a top tier. His strengths may not be as overwhelming as most of the other top and high tiers like , but his lack of glaring weaknesses make him stand out amidst top and high tier fighters like who's weaknesses are much more glaring and exploitable.

has been being overrated since E3 and I think people are only starting to realize this. I don't think is trash, or even that she's not high tier, I just think that her weaknesses were being completely ignored and people have just started noticing them. For one, her recovery is among the worst in the game, as she is entirely reliant on a tether grab. It also doesn't hep that her air speed and jump height aren't very good either. Secondly, as I just mentioned, is very slow in terms of movement speed (and frame data in some cases). This makes Ivysaur easy to punish if she messes up, something that doesn't struggle with. However, 's strengths are overwhelming in some cases. She has some very good on and offstage edgeguarding options, impressive range, good kill potential, can deal well with camping, and has better survivability than . I believe that Ivysaur is a decent high tier character.

is kind of a weird character and opinions on him in Smash Ultimate seem to be varying a bit more than they were in Smash 4. His ground speed and initial dash are both very impressive, being the best of the three Pokemon and while his air speed is poor, his multiple jumps along with his far traveling recovery help to have the best recovery of the three as well. However, one flaw that I've noticed that has is that his aerials seem to have weird hitboxes, causing them to miss in a lot of situations where they shouldn't (especially on grounded opponents) with the most notable example being f-air. Another issue that he has is while he has a lot of good attacks individually, his moveset doesn't flow like a cohesive moveset very well, not unlike (but still better than) . is also easy to juggle and combo like most super-heavyweights which means that characters like can rack up damage on him pretty quickly. However, he still possess his impressive range on some of his grounded attacks from Smash 4 allowing him to outspace characters like . To me seems like a niche low mid tier or high low tier pick who may have a few decent matchups like , but he won't be any higher due to his very bad matchups against characters such as among others.

 

[ZephyrZ]

is probably the best of the three. His ground speed is pretty average as is his air speed but his air acceleration is very good and his initial dash is a bit above average. feels similar to to me. He has no glaring weaknesses, but he struggles to kill and lacks range on some of his attacks, but neither of these issues are extremely hard to work around. Other than those two minor weaknesses, excels (or at least passes) in just about every other area. Recovery, comboing, edgeguarding, juggling, having what is probably top 5 frame data in Smash Ultimate (along with ) , having a small hurtbox, and being hard to combo, all make me think that he's a top tier. His strengths may not be as overwhelming as most of the other top and high tiers like , but his lack of glaring weaknesses make him stand out amidst top and high tier fighters like who's weaknesses are much more glaring and exploitable.

No way is Squirtle a top tier on his own. Incredibly frame data, great aerials, throws and dash attack, and a small frame all make him very potent at low to mid percents. However when you start getting to higher percents that all starts to fall apart. may have struggled to kill, but she still had a 50-50 and Bouncing Fish to cover that weakness up. All Squirtle has is slow, short ranged Smash Attacks. Even offstage he struggles to kill unless his opponent has really bad recovery as his attacks are weak enough that many opponents will still make it back. also had a great projectile and moved much more quickly.

Honestly is more like but without 's raw power. Amazing combos and strings, average mobility offset by fantastic air acceleration, short range and dies to a sneeze. But Pichu has zero issues killing, onstage or offstage. Squirt is still really good but falls apart without his other Pokemon friends to back him up. I'd say mid tier at best on his own, but thankfully he doesn't have to play on his own.

Aside from that I largely agree with your opinions on Ivysaur and Zard, although Zard also doesn't do that bad against Cloud since he can rival his range and get him with Flamethrower cheese. I think Mewtwo is really tough for him on the other hand as he has a hard time competing with Mewtwo's Fair and Shadow Ball.

 

[Rizen]

's kill moves are /. 's recovery is . And 's disadvantage state is (withdraw). 's whole is greater than his parts.

 

[SwagGuy99]

So -1? What kind of numbers are we talking? How does Greninja do against other top and high tiers?

As someone wh

's kill moves are /. 's recovery is . And 's disadvantage state is (withdraw). 's whole is greater than his parts.

Agreed. With all three Pokemon being utilized he's one of the best characters in the game. Squirtle just barely scrapes the end of top tier I think and Pokemon Trainer is probably near the high middle part of top tier.