COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

^^I'm actually fine with no ledgehop invincibility. Ledgestalling really only worked with 3 characters in melee (Ganon, Fox, and Falco). Everyone else ran out of invincibility before they could regrab the ledge, so it was just a matter of if you have moves that could reach them or not.

I think Link had a good one also but yea, Im fine with it, just wondering what others thought. I mean, I doubt with the floatiness of this game that ledge stalling would even work. I need to test now but I wonder if the jump and Attack are on the old timer also. How was it in melee because I hardly ever used this so I forget. Could you instantly react from the ledge by jumping or pressing a? i would think you could

 

[Osi]

I think Link had a good one also but yea, Im fine with it, just wondering what others thought. I mean, I doubt with the floatiness of this game that ledge stalling would even work. I need to test now but I wonder if the jump and Attack are on the old timer also. How was it in melee because I hardly ever used this so I forget. Could you instantly react from the ledge by jumping or pressing a? i would think you could

I'm fine with the way it is. It's nice to be able to hop up with an attack earlier again. I am looking forward to using back though lol, just got done trying it and down feels so awkward to me. This is just a matter of preference because I used back to cancel in melee for so long and got use to it (I use back in brawl retail too).

 

[Magus420]

^^I'm actually fine with no ledgehop invincibility. Ledgestalling really only worked with 3 characters in melee (Ganon, Fox, and Falco). Everyone else ran out of invincibility before they could regrab the ledge, so it was just a matter of if you have moves that could reach them or not.

Ganon/Bowser/Link/Roy can stall with their double jumps, Fox/Falco/Zelda/Sheik/Pikachu/Pichu/Mewtwo with up-B, and Yoshi with down-B. Also, everyone else except for Peach can technically stall with ledgehop backwards waveland fastfalls, and Falcon can with his up-B on Battlefield, but they're not at all practical.


Sheik's is the best because it has a lot of room for error and also attacks, and Mewtwo's also has room for error and if you do leave any vulnerability you're way offstage at that point.

The double jump ones are next best, but need to be frame perfect. Ganon and Roy have extremely safe vertical sweetspots in case you mess up though, Link's is decent, and Bowser can't sweetspot the jump vertically but can space it decently horizontally.


Sheik & Mewtwo have that error window on them because of the invincibility on their up-Bs. Every other invincible stall needs to be frame perfect in letting go of the edge (this is all that really matters for doing it correctly), because the total invincibility from the edge was made so that it is exactly equal to the ledge grabbing lag + the period after letting go of the edge that the game doesn't allow you to grab it again.


Ledgegrabbing Lag: Link (4); Everyone else (8)
Disabled Regrab Period: ALL (29)
Ledgegrab Lag + Regrab Lag: Link (33); Everyone else (37)

Ledge Invincibility: Link (33); Everyone else (37)

 

[SketchHurricane]

Magus with the breakdown!

Anyway, my first reaction is that I'm fine with no ledge stalling, since I hardly saw it in high level melee. I don't see why we would want any forms of stalling anyway...

 

[kupo15]

do you think there would be stalling if the invincibility were there? I know that there would not be any double jump stalling given the floaty nature. Do you think there will be any other forms of stalling? MK down b, Fox's shine you can prob can grab the ledge before they can regrab it

 

[Magus420]

Maybe. It depends mostly on what the ledge regrab period is when compared to the invincibility. If the invincibility goes past when you can regrab then yeah, there could be some really dumb stalls even with the no upwards moving ledgegrabs.

If the regrab period is or is made long enough so that the invincibility doesn't cover it then it should be fine. You would be able to either hit them from on-stage after they become vulnerable and they are about to regrab (think Fox's up-B stall in Melee), or if the stall sweetspots then sneak the edge from them and maybe use your own invincibility to hit them before their regrab time is up and after they are vulnerable.

The doublejump stalls in Melee relied on fast falling speed combined with very short jump height on it so they begin moving downward after it fast enough and before the invincibility runs out. The other stalls were able to achieve the downwards movement easily and sometimes very early, so if either the ledgegrabbing lag were removed or the ledge regrab period made shorter in that game they would have been easier to keep full invincibility on them.

There should be similar moves in Brawl to set up the regrab, but like I said, whether they result in broken stalls or easily punished stalls really depends on the balance between regrab and invincibility durations.

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

where did the codes go? :/

 

[leafgreen386]

where did the codes go? :/

Did you uh... check the second post?

 

[Osi]

Personally I would like to see the following in the final code set:

HAD - Or at least a cleaned up MAD with lag or at least not stackable - 87 atm
L cancel - auto or manual... I could care less which - 32 for auto
Hitstun - Right now I'm on 11.75% - 34
Edge cancel - 32 lines atm
No auto sweet spot on edges - (not up yet)
No tripping - 2
Shield Stun - (not up yet)
Faster fall speed - This is only if that new 2 line code works.. I wouldn't waste more than 10 lines on this - 2


So that's 189 total used out of 256 free to use. The average gameplay codes use around 30, and with the codes as they are right now that leaves almost 70 for those 2 not posted.


I have no clue what size shield stun or no auto edge sweet spot will be, but I am assuming around 30-35 lines. If MAD is cleaned up or made to HAD it may add some or take some away, so it's hard to tell right now. I'm fine with the current perfect shield, and I'm not using the dash cancel anymore for now. I would use a dash dance code that modified it as a whole. A lot of my issue with dash dancing on brawl is how you enter into a dash dance and the rigid limits on spacing with it. The exit/stopping portion of the dash never was a issue for me.



Edit - There is more I'd like to see make it if there was room like grapple below edges, PT codes, shine cancels, shorter short hops, and fixed collision on stages

 

[Steeler]

about the release grab experiments...that will apply to other characters like squirtle and meta knight, i presume? and not just wario + mother boys?

also, thank you guys so much for the trainer codes.

 

[Dan_X]

Faster fall speed - This is only if that new 2 line code works.. I wouldn't waste more than 10 lines on this - 2

Wait, is there a 2line code in existence for fast falling? Is that what you're saying? If so, where is it? I'd like to test it.

Kupo, I just had a chance to test the no ledge lag code... stunning! My only complaint (and it's not really a big deal) is that pulling away from the ledge is same as usual. Down is the lagless escape. I suppose it's not really a big deal. Can this be easily fixed? Also... I haven't tried CC yet-- I noticed it's been renamed to Dash Cancel. So it doesn't act like crouch canceling; i.e. it reduces knock back when crouched? Does it only serve as a dash cancel?

Someone mentioned this earlier, I forget who, but someone mentioned Muba's 6 Line no dash end code, it seems to work well... I've yet to try the dash cancel code though. What do you think of Muba's code? Have you tested it? It seems to make dashdancing better, in addition, it makes the characters more responsive in that they can turn faster (which helps facilitate DDing)

Is PW going to make a custom DD code from the ground up?

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to the other ledge codes, etc..!

 

[Osi]

Wait, is there a 2line code in existence for fast falling? Is that what you're saying? If so, where is it? I'd like to test it.

Kupo, I just had a chance to test the no ledge lag code... stunning! My only complaint (and it's not really a big deal) is that pulling away from the ledge is same as usual. Down is the lagless escape. I suppose it's not really a big deal. Can this be easily fixed? Also... I haven't tried CC yet-- I noticed it's been renamed to Dash Cancel. So it doesn't act like crouch canceling; i.e. it reduces knock back when crouched? Does it only serve as a dash cancel?

Someone mentioned this earlier, I forget who, but someone mentioned Muba's 6 Line no dash end code, it seems to work well... I've yet to try the dash cancel code though. What do you think of Muba's code? Have you tested it? It seems to make dashdancing better, in addition, it makes the characters more responsive in that they can turn faster (which helps facilitate DDing)

Is PW going to make a custom DD code from the ground up?

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to the other ledge codes, etc..!

First the 2 line code I spoke of. One of the PAL hackers on another thread found the up/down speed modifier on spear pillar, and is trying to make it to a game wide code. The code he posted was 2 lines, and I am hopeful it will stay that way in the end code. I haven't checked up on it much, but he said he had it work on FD... I think it makes fall rate faster without affecting the rate you go upward. If this is indeed the case then I would love to see it in action. It would be all the positives of high gravity with very few of the negatives. There is not a known/tested NTSC code out yet, but we all hope for it soon.

On to Kupo's post of the new ledge code. It has been addressed a few times that back should cancel to directly to Kupo, and he has been kind enough to say he'll try and let PW know about that. The code is already awesome, and with back cancel it will be just like melee. I am so thrilled with this code.

The crouch cancel code he posted cancels out dash animation by crouching. It is not a code to cancel hit back like melee crouch cancel. The code does hold promise though, and I am fully ok with MAD/WD being left out if they can somehow make wide dash dancing that can be canceled to take its place. It seems to have the same entry as WD does with the CC code too. I really need to test it more, but it's not that useful till dash dancing is fixed to allow more variety in distance and transition.

 

[Wind Owl]

Personally, I think there should be no stopping or turnaround animations whatsoever. This would make dashdancing and pivoting completely insane, restoring mobility that Brawl is in desparate need of. If this is done, taking out MAD would be fine by me.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Personally, I think there should be no stopping or turnaround animations whatsoever. This would make dashdancing and pivoting completely insane, restoring mobility that Brawl is in desparate need of. If this is done, taking out MAD would be fine by me.

Isn't that what the first DD code accomplished? Haven't been able to test the new stuff. Hopefully the fall speed codes get worked out soon, too.

 

[kupo15]

Kupo, I just had a chance to test the no ledge lag code... stunning! My only complaint (and it's not really a big deal) is that pulling away from the ledge is same as usual. Down is the lagless escape. I suppose it's not really a big deal. Can this be easily fixed?

He knows of this before he sent it to me. He just asked if the speed was ok. So its not the complete one which is why its a beta but Id thought Id post it so you guys can have a little fun

Also... I haven't tried CC yet-- I noticed it's been renamed to Dash Cancel. So it doesn't act like crouch canceling; i.e. it reduces knock back when crouched? Does it only serve as a dash cancel?

No it does not. No reduced kb.

Someone mentioned this earlier, I forget who, but someone mentioned Muba's 6 Line no dash end code, it seems to work well... I've yet to try the dash cancel code though. What do you think of Muba's code? Have you tested it? It seems to make dashdancing better, in addition, it makes the characters more responsive in that they can turn faster (which helps facilitate DDing)

No I haven't tried it and I told some ppl that I would consider it but I want to see how fast the game goes when the basics are fixed before adding strange codes to speed things up. This way I have a reference for speed

Is PW going to make a custom DD code from the ground up?

Thanks guys. I'm looking forward to the other ledge codes, etc..!

I hope so and I think he will. After the ledge codes (3) and buffering, Ill request for shield codes (major important code) and DDing. Those are really the last of the basics i think but i can see if I can sneak in the momentum code..but we shall see. Ill also ask for a request with the M cancel and the fixed l cancel and an auto l cancel that works online


I also wanted to say that PW will continue to hack after the holiday. So I'll be waiting for his PM and Ill keep you guys up to date when he does

 

[Dan_X]

He knows of this before he sent it to me. He just asked if the speed was ok. So its not the complete one which is why its a beta but Id thought Id post it so you guys can have a little fun

No it does not. No reduced kb.

No I haven't tried it and I told some ppl that I would consider it but I want to see how fast the game goes when the basics are fixed before adding strange codes to speed things up. This way I have a reference for speed

I hope so and I think he will. After the ledge codes (3) and buffering, Ill request for shield codes (major important code) and DDing. Those are really the last of the basics i think but i can see if I can sneak in the momentum code..but we shall see. Ill also ask for a request with the M cancel and the fixed l cancel and an auto l cancel that works online


I also wanted to say that PW will continue to hack after the holiday. So I'll be waiting for his PM and Ill keep you guys up to date when he does

OKay. I'm adding the DC code now, and am going to test it out. I must say the early version of the DD code works nicely, in that it does speed up the game as you said. I never realized how sluggish movement was before until the addition of this code. Even still, I look forward to the further edge codes. The current beta of the lagless edges is amazing, I love it. Also, I don't understand buffering but don't bother explaining that here. I'll just ask you on aim sometime. A momentum could would probably change the game entirely-- but that's not a bad thing. I'd be so excited to test this out, it'd be so interesting. I'm sure new combos and many new possibilities would arise from this.

 

[SketchHurricane]

The No Dash Lag code has some good applications, but it acts a bit weird. Sometimes your lag is canceled and sometimes it isn't. It seems like you have to go to neutral in order for the stand animation to come out, and thus lead to another move. It wasn't really possible for me to dash dance outside the normal range because I would still get a skid (probably because I wasn't in neutral enough to cancel the dash...). Seems like I had good success dashing for a good length, then laglessly turning to another dash, but when you do it rapidly it's unpredictable.

Having said that, it's awesome to be able to do anything you want out of a dash! You can do any dash and any tilt (dashing up tilt with Ike is great). You can also get a sort of pseudo wave dash by dashing and immediately canceling into a move if your character is slidy. This is because you still go the distance of the skid while in the dash animation.

I'm about to try the crouch cancel code, but I doubt it will operate much differently from this one...

 

[krlos F.]

So which code can I use? Dash Cancelling or No Dash Lag code from Muba (I think)? Because I'm using right now DC code (crouch to perform any attack) and works fine, u can dash->crouch->do any attack, but I don't know If changing this code for the No Dash LAg code, because I think this one makes very easy any attack after a dash, I mean just dash and do any attack so everybody can do this even if they don't know that they can't perform normally (without codes) those attacks (Ex. Tilts) after dashing, but with te DC code they must to know they have to crouch first after dashing to perform an attack.

What code do u recommend to use?

 

[zxeon]

So which code can I use? Dash Cancelling or No Dash Lag code from Muba (I think)? Because I'm using right now DC code (crouch to perform any attack) and works fine, u can dash->crouch->do any attack, but I don't know If changing this code for the No Dash LAg code, because I think this one makes very easy any attack after a dash, I mean just dash and do any attack so everybody can do this even if they don't know that they can't perform normally (without codes) those attacks (Ex. Tilts) after dashing, but with te DC code they must to know they have to crouch first after dashing to perform an attack.

What code do u recommend to use?

Test 'em both.

 

[MuBa]

Wow. Never knew my code would be this popular :X

My Dash Cancel code works very well with the (buggy) Character Speed modifier. It's like everyone gets a free wavedash into any attack.

I swear Brawl+ does not even need MAD when you have neat applications like that.

 

[SketchHurricane]

So which code can I use? Dash Cancelling or No Dash Lag code from Muba (I think)? Because I'm using right now DC code (crouch to perform any attack) and works fine, u can dash->crouch->do any attack, but I don't know If changing this code for the No Dash LAg code, because I think this one makes very easy any attack after a dash, I mean just dash and do any attack so everybody can do this even if they don't know that they can't perform normally (without codes) those attacks (Ex. Tilts) after dashing, but with te DC code they must to know they have to crouch first after dashing to perform an attack.

What code do u recommend to use?

Actually, I recommend Dash Cancel for now. No Dash Lag has a few weird slidey effects going on (which I posted about above). It just seems as if your not always in control. Dash Cancel is a lot more deliberate because you are actively canceling into the move of your choice. It's also a bit harder to get the desired effect since you have to cancel, but I think that is a good thing. It's like a new AT of sorts.

For instance, I noticed that if you do half circle back, you can cancel into a sliding jab First I tried rotating from forward to down back to forward, but it either did a smash, another dash (a la foxtrot) or something else weird. But for some reason going from down to back makes the jab come out perfectly.

 

[Dan_X]

I actually like Muba's code quite a bit. IMHO it makes characters more responsive than ever, giving you more personal control. I haven't experienced any sliding problems. I've also found dash dancing to be much better. I love everything about it, it makes gameplay a tad more swift.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

Um, I think there's a code which should be considered high priority:

-Higher maximum aerial velocity
-Retain the momentum from your dash when you jump

Without these codes mobility, comboing and the general "feel" of Brawl+ will be severely negatively affected by Brawl's terrible physics system. AT LEAST add those codes to the list of ones which need to be done, I implore you.

 

[Shell]

I'm not sure how retaining the dash momentum would be done. If it was some sort of speed check, characters like Jigglypuff who have much faster arial speeds that dash speeds are going to get boned.

 

[Starscream]

Well doesn't even exactly have to be the same speed as your dash. It just makes sense that dashing > jump makes you jump farther than a standing jump. Why Brawl isn't like this, I have no idea but it should be.

 

[Kix]

So you can slide and reverse and go forward while attacking?

 

[Shell]

Yeah, maybe a 1.X (modifiable) boost to to horizontal air speed for dashed jumps.

 

[kupo15]

Well doesn't even exactly have to be the same speed as your dash. It just makes sense that dashing > jump makes you jump farther than a standing jump. Why Brawl isn't like this, I have no idea but it should be.

I agree. The horizontal momentum should not be equal to your dash otherwise MK could kill you with Fairs to death and sonic will be crazy. I think a slight momentum gain to catch up with the DI to match that of melees would be fine. I will be using marth as a test probably

 

[zxeon]

I agree. The horizontal momentum should not be equal to your dash otherwise MK could kill you with Fairs to death and sonic will be crazy. I think a slight momentum gain to catch up with the DI to match that of melees would be fine. I will be using marth as a test probably

Why would you give MK more air momentum? He's the exception to the rule. There should be a code to make Metaknight unaffected by all codes because he is pretty broken as far as Smash characters go. We could also ban him it's not like he's the most well loved character in vanilla brawl.

 

[Shell]

Is this on the eventual backburner of requested codes, then?

 

[Starscream]

Why would you give MK more air momentum? He's the exception to the rule. There should be a code to make Metaknight unaffected by all codes because he is pretty broken as far as Smash characters go. We could also ban him it's not like he's the most well loved character in vanilla brawl.

Because it's just unnecessary work to create a universal code and then modify it to exclude Meta Knight. If he truly is broken in Brawl+ then a ban will probably be considered in the future. But until then all I can really say is suck it up. I mean come on, Brawl+ isn't even finished yet.

 

[BrutalBrutal]

I agree. The horizontal momentum should not be equal to your dash otherwise MK could kill you with Fairs to death and sonic will be crazy.

You're mistaken about this.

In Melee, characters always retained the speed from their dash when they first jumped. However, it worked in Melee so that you had a certain amount of aerial resistance, which very soon slowed you down to your usual maximum horizontal aerial speed. This effect is very visible with Melee Link or Falco while SHFFLing: you can see them take off with the same momentum but then quickly decelerate. With Captain Falcon, though, for example, he had very low resistance and so wasn't slowed down significantly, which was why he could cover such huge horizontal distances even in short hops. Notice that Melee Fox, who runs almost as fast, cannot jump nearly as far as Captain Falcon, due to his high aerial resistance.

You're forgetting that making characters take off with their running momentum doesn't magically remove their maximum horizontal air velocity. If MK's dash was faster than his max airspeed then he would either:
a) If Brawl worked like Melee where there is a certain level of aerial resistance, MK would quickly decelerate to his usual maximum airspeed.
b) If Brawl arbitrarily limits your speed (as I think it does, the physics system being so generally awful) then MK would simply take off at maximum aerial velocity, being prevented from going any faster.

I hold that maximum horizontal airspeeds should be increased, and that you should retain the momentum from your dash. Jigglypuff (who, I think moves faster in the air than while dashing) would soon accelerate to maximum aerial speed (so (s)he wouldn't be nerfed as has been suggested), and everyone would feel much smoother to control. Brawl+ characters still feel unnacceptably stiff and awkward in the air without this hack.

 

[zxeon]

We need faster air speeds and the ability to fast fall before the apex of a jump.

 

[Revven]

After playing a bunch of hours of Melee, I agree with the whole momentum based jumping, I loved that especially with Captain Falcon's Falcon Punch, GOD just jumping ALL the way across FD with a Falcon Punch in Melee is just so good.

I want it. But, it should be done after PW is done with the stuff kupo asked of him (perhaps after shieldstun? Or before? I'd prefer before, but, that's just me).

 

[Starscream]

Well if that's how it worked then alright, just GET ER DUN. And I don't think fast fall before jump apex (pretty sure it was always like this anyways for every Smash game?) is necessary, just make short hops shorter and you won't need it.

 

[zxeon]

Well if that's how it worked then alright, just GET ER DUN. And I don't think fast fall before jump apex (pretty sure it was always like this anyways for every Smash game?) is necessary, just make short hops shorter and you won't need it.

That might be true.

 

[Revven]

OH! Kupo, you should replace the gravity modifiers for the new one that allows you to modify upwards/downwards gravity with the appropriate values to plug in for testing. Also, make a note that they can just use downward gravity, they wouldn't need both lines (just the one for downward gravity).

Honestly, modifying upwards/downwards gravity code > Gravity modifier. So, edit yer post(s).

 

[SketchHurricane]

So what do you guys think about hit stun with the downward gravity? I was using 1.3 fall speed with 11.5% today. Sometimes it feels like a bit much, sometimes it doesn't. We played some Falcon vs Marth, and that was the first time in Brawl+ that we actually felt like we had to use four stocks :D. Playing with the less combo-crazy characters made the games last noticeably longer though. I'll probably go down to 10% next session and see how that sits with 1.3 fall speed.

 

[Shell]

I've been doing a little 1.35 down grav with 10% stun.

And the dash jump momentum would be an epic code. However, it sounds pretty complicated (lot of lines, perhaps?). Here's to hoping.

 

[zxeon]

I've been doing a little 1.35 down grav with 10% stun.

And the dash jump momentum would be an epic code. However, it sounds pretty complicated (lot of lines, perhaps?). Here's to hoping.

If it turns out that all you have to do is edit a value then it will probably end up being short.