Comparing Melee and Project M

[HyperrCrow]

^wow, these people really exist

We do. Only for friendlies though.
When playing seriously I need variation.

 

[smashbro29]

Why compare? Just play both since you like them. It's better to think of PM as an entirely new game.

I love P:M but I feel in some ways it's trying to be Melee too much and not focused enough on being the best damn mod it can be. Melee was awesome but not everything about the engine was perfect or even good.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'll never understand how people think Melee feels better than P:M, but more-so how nobody recognizes light press air dodge is amazing. Hitboxes feel more Meaty in Melee, that's the only pro Melee feel aspect I got: not to say P:M's feel bad. If we're talking about character control, and everything concerning movement of your character: P:M almost lets you reach levels of Hax and IHSB movement for a lot less effort. The aesthetics/looks of Melee still mean a lot, and P:M is still Brawl with a Melee camera, but I only consider them different and not really better than the other (Compared to Dota 1 vs LoL, LoL minions look so dumb). Also people can't talk about aesthetics until they buy Wii component cables: you're not viewing the full P:M nor Melee till you use those. http://www.amazon.com/Nintendo-Wii-Component-Cable-Definition-Packaging/dp/B000M5ZIVY/ref=pd_cp_vg_3

I think the feel thing mostly comes from the visual/audio aesthetic, and on that front Melee does have PM beat, but it's not the fault of the PM devs. In a perfect world, PM would have the most sensual blend of Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl sound effects possible.

Speaking of Smash 64, did anyone else ever spend an hour just going through all the sound effects and listening to them over and over? That hypnotized me as a kid.

I love P:M but I feel in some ways it's trying to be Melee too much and not focused enough on being the best damn mod it can be. Melee was awesome but not everything about the engine was perfect or even good.

I disagree, the Melee engine is one of the best things about the game. Other than the now-conspicuous absence of RAR and B reversal, there's really nothing wrong with it IMO. Character design is plenty debatable, but I mean, a Smash game without silly character designs...? Don't hold your breath for that.

 

[traffic.]

OP asks "which one do you like better"
Obv I've posted my opinion which should be clear because from an objektiv Point of view its obv not perfect.
Way to go bashing me for my opinion

W/e strong Bad what you did is like 10000 times more **** riding btw, good job

You used the fact that it's your opinion to back up your opinion. Attend class next semester.

 

[Kally Wally]

I disagree, the Melee engine is one of the best things about the game. Other than the now-conspicuous absence of RAR and B reversal, there's really nothing wrong with it IMO. Character design is plenty debatable, but I mean, a Smash game without silly character designs...? Don't hold your breath for that.

I disagree with your disagreement. Melee's engine was good, but something about it feels wrong to me. A large part of it is that the controls can't be changed and I use a radically modified control scheme in PM, but Melee just feels wrong. I can't get into the same "flow" that I can in PM. It doesn't help that I actually got into PM first and went back to Melee later. From my perspective, it's plainly obvious that PM is superior, but then again, it all comes down to opinion. There probably isn't a right answer, besides a straight "un-ask the question."

However, I'll give Melee this - it was practically bug free. Other than things like Ness' yoyo, I've never seen any truly "wait WTF!?" moments in Melee, like I have in Brawl. Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard.

 

[smashbro29]

I think the feel thing mostly comes from the visual/audio aesthetic, and on that front Melee does have PM beat, but it's not the fault of the PM devs. In a perfect world, PM would have the most sensual blend of Smash 64, Melee, and Brawl sound effects possible.

Speaking of Smash 64, did anyone else ever spend an hour just going through all the sound effects and listening to them over and over? That hypnotized me as a kid.


I disagree, the Melee engine is one of the best things about the game. Other than the now-conspicuous absence of RAR and B reversal, there's really nothing wrong with it IMO. Character design is plenty debatable, but I mean, a Smash game without silly character designs...? Don't hold your breath for that.

I was referring more to things like L-cancelling and the difficult to perform non-intuitive ATs.

I know I'm basically not allowed to talk L-cancelling because it's been done to death but the ATs while adding a lot of depth are just way too obtuse and very counter intuitive to how someone who enjoys "serious" smash but didn't necessarily keep up with the scene to have been practicing his/her ability to do them because they're not something most people would think to do on their own.

Had they been less Melee focused the depth brought on from the ATs would have been integrated into the design in a better more intuitive way allowing more people to enjoy the depth that they bring with them.

 

[darkatma]

Project M's biggest strength is also its biggest flaw: the fact that the character designers are also competitors in the metagame. Introduction of many of the character mechanics feel like hoops to jump rather than inherent gameplay depth(why is everything a DI trap?!). Obviously P:M has the most potential as it is fan-made, but it can't and won't replace melee for a long time - probably not before all gamecube controllers run out of stock and break.

I personally enjoy P:M's attempts at balancing the characters, but the game still feels clunky. I would have enjoyed a port of brawl characters over to the melee engine much more, and balancing on top of the melee engine. Just because numbers are ported over does not mean the operator will treat them the same way. Still, the main reason (many) top melee players only dabble in P:M is that the game does not reward skill the same way melee does.

Fix landing detection and homing grapple (and sonic's priority) and we might be able to talk.

Edit: I understand I'm in the Project M boards, and if you were to post this discussion in the Melee Discussion thread you would get drastically different responses. Keep in mind there is strong response bias in this thread, or any thread depending on where you post it.

 

[Juushichi]

Project M's biggest strength is also its biggest flaw: the fact that the character designers are also competitors in the metagame. Introduction of many of the character mechanics feel like hoops to jump rather than inherent gameplay depth(why is everything a DI trap?!). Obviously P:M has the most potential as it is fan-made, but it can't and won't replace melee for a long time - probably not before all gamecube controllers run out of stock and break.

I personally enjoy P:M's attempts at balancing the characters, but the game still feels clunky. I would have enjoyed a port of brawl characters over to the melee engine much more, and balancing on top of the melee engine. Just because numbers are ported over does not mean the operator will treat them the same way. Still, the main reason (many) top melee players only dabble in P:M is that the game does not reward skill the same way melee does.

Atma, what exactly do you mean when you say that P:M doesn't reward skill in the same way that Melee does?

I can understand about the potential gripe on developers being avid competitors in the same game that they play, some people won't be able to get past that, for sure. 1 to 1 numbers ports also may not necessarily be conclusive to the feel of the game, can also understand that too. More than anything, I do want to know about the rewarding skill thing.

 

[R2_GP]

"The game does not reward skill the same way melee does." I remember mango saying something like this. PM is indeed an amazing protect

 

[Burnsy]

"The game does not reward skill the same way melee does." I remember mango saying something like this. PM is indeed an amazing protect

I've heard this from a few Melee vets. This is just a theory, but I think its just a MU inexperience john among the likes of "I got gimmick'd by _____(new character)_____". If you have enough skill in Melee, you can practically beat every character outside of your common tournament threats without having to rely on MU knowledge whatsoever. Now that most characters are viable in P:M, a player can feel as though everything they did was executed skillfully, but still lose because they are used to not caring about who they are fighting or adjusting their playstyle and decisions accordingly.

If not the expanded cast, what else is so different between these games that it would drastically impact how much you are rewarded for skill? Better combo angles? Better recoveries?

 

[SpiderMad]

Well yeah essentially having this many viable characters requires MU and "gimmick" knowledge to an absurd extent, but even then viable is an understatement and there's still OP characters and traits lingering among them which we can only wait to get picture of.

 

[Deleted member]

Way to go bashing me for my opinion

If you go into an opinion thread and choose to post your opinion, especially a controversial opinion, you should expect other people to reply with their own opinions.

the game does not reward skill the same way melee does.

I'm sorry, but that is an unfounded statement. It has no basis in reality.

The main reason why a top Melee player wouldn't be interested in Project M is because they might actually have to *gasp* learn how to fight the entire cast in order to secure wins. Some people just aren't open to change. Either that or they're just waiting for final release because they don't want to play a game that's incomplete.

Once Project M is completed, I don't believe there will be any rational reason for anybody to be playing Melee outside of nostalgia or "I absolutely can't live without Mewtwo/Roy/Pichu."

 

[Paradoxium]

Jesus Christ, you made like 7 threads in the past week, but aside from that pm is way superior. It contains all the elements that I liked about melee which is fast gameplay, a high skill curve, and Nintendo characters. Its even better because you can use nearly any character and have a fair shot at winning, melee was just way too imbalanced. Most people who say melee is better have gone into the state where they believe if its not exactly like melee than its worse.

 

[Paradoxium]

If P:M completely overtakes Melee, that'll be a sad day. I'm probably projecting extra bias on how everyone plays Lol/Dota 2 now while Dota 1 using the Wc3 engine still feels better in every way (P:M feels better than Melee though, Brawl engine is pretty awesome in its entirety). I also hate the look of Dota 2/LoL.

Holy **** I remember Dota in the wc3 world editor lol. That was the ****! After that I could never adjust to lol and Dota 2. They have created similar games on the sc2 map editor but it still isn't the same. Good times...good times...

 

[SpiderMad]

Well Dota 1 is still alive and they've been adding heroes every few updates, Maphacking has gotten rampant now though and all Public games (the only ones people care to join) are hosted by bots of clan DotaCash (Which they prosecute and ban MHer's but they just change their IP address and make a new account). The worst part isn't the actual people MHing but people thinking you MH whenever you play good lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

Still, the main reason (many) top melee players only dabble in P:M is that the game does not reward skill the same way melee does.

sorry binyan, but i have to say that even if true, this is a very, very good thing. project m has a significantly different skillset from super smash bros. melee because of one big reason: melee's skillset is narrow. why, you ask? there are only 6 characters that are viable, 8 if you really reach. this means that the skillset melee tests is not simply being able to make use of its mechanics well, it's specifically being good with those characters. there are unique skillsets tested by characters in ssbm such as by bowser, zelda, ness, mewtwo, g&w, and others that are simply irrelevant to the metagame because of how poor those characters are at winning. this is so apparent that you often find people discussing mains of these characters not as "good players," in the case of those who main good characters, but as "the best X player," because it's noted that their character selection prevents them from performing well. these skillsets and many more are made viable. it's no wonder that the skillset widens ("becomes different" "is no longer the same") when this occurs, and that is awesome. i understand that many haven't and may never come to terms with this important fact, and that is a shame. it'd be fantastic to see a player of your caliber take part in developing and exploring the metagame of a new character in pm and i hope to see it someday.

the rest of your concerns are simply a matter of time before implementation, and are relatively minor. landing detection has been fixed since 2.0 by the way.

 

[SpiderMad]

Has landing while in histun still resulting in Brawl LD been fixed though from 2.1 to 2.5?

 

[F. Blue]

have fun arguing with a 12 year old community over whether or not wobbling should be legal, i'll be busy playing a game where it doesn't exist

Are you saying there's no wobbling because there's no ICs in the demo, or did you just reveal wobble free Ice Climers?

 

[Hakkat]

Jesus Christ, you made like 7 threads in the past week, but aside from that pm is way superior. It contains all the elements that I liked about melee which is fast gameplay, a high skill curve, and Nintendo characters. Its even better because you can use nearly any character and have a fair shot at winning, melee was just way too imbalanced. Most people who say melee is better have gone into the state where they believe if its not exactly like melee than its worse.

Lol, I get bored on Mondays/Tuesdays and I don't have much to do, so I like to talk about Smash.

ANYWAYYY....I agree 100% with that. All the best players in Melee used Fox, Sheik, Jiggs, and sometimes Falco. Now in P:M it feels like they almost threw tiers out the window (which is epic)

 

[SpiderMad]

Are you saying there's no wobbling because there's no ICs in the demo, or did you just reveal wobble free Ice Climers?

No mod would add that bug back in

 

[ELI-mination]

This may seem like an unpopular idea, and I know its a stretch, but....
Have you ever thought of, I dunno, *GASP* learning new matchups!?!? Learning new things in general?
Just spitballing here.... but you know, seeing something in-game, or getting hit by someone's recovery, or "janky" attack the first couple of times you play a matchup while mindlessly throwing out your auto-pilot shine gameplay from melee .... isn't really indicative of anything wrong with the game. It's indicative of something wrong with not only your perception, but your judgment and scrubbiness, and your whole view of what constitutes good character design.
Just a thought I'd share with everyone.

There could be some depth to, you know, learning new things. And like, using new characters. And testing things out. And restraining yourself from impulse knee-jerk reactionary johns and cries to the first thing that hits you in-game when you were "doing what you were supposed to do" and getting "REWARDED MORE FOR IT!!!!!!!".

 

[Spiffykins]

No mod would add that bug back in

But will they still have chaingrabs? I'd personally be alright with it either way.

 

[Strong Badam]

I can confirm that Wobbling will almost definitely not return. It would require additional effort to code that, and frankly it isn't worth it to re-incorporate an obvious flaw that obsoletes an otherwise interesting and dynamic grab game.

 

[darkatma]

Don't you still land on your legs and not your knees? Fox doesn't seem to have as much air time. Anyways I love learning new matchups, anyone insinuating otherwise hasn't played me before.

Like I said, I think P:M has potential, but it'll be a while before it's "completed".

 

[SpiderMad]

No you land on your knees now like Melee, except if you're in hitstun (no one responded to me when I've asked this twice now so I'm guessing it's not fixed)

His air time could be less though because Fox's DJ is shorter or something than Melee's and it's unfixed at least in 2.5, and possibly Link's as well but no one answers this stuff

 

[standardtoaster]

Gravity is not applied on frame 1 of the jump. You get 1 extra frame of air time because of this

 

[TheTuninator]

Project M is definitely more fun due to using the full Brawl roster, but as a Peach main I can't help but miss the Melee Dsmash. Even if it's the same strength gameplay-wise (it feels weaker), I really miss the awesome grinder sound from Melee. You really felt that move.

That said, I would most likely play Project M over Melee if given a choice.

 

[Kneato]

No offense Tero, but stating your opinion is different from stating something completely false as fact. Saying P:M has perfect physics, character design etc would also be ****-riding because it's also not true. Is it improved over Melee? Yes. The number of viable characters is a testament to that. But believing that any game is perfect just because you've invested vast amounts of time into it is foolhardy.

Besides Pong of course. That *** is dope.

 

[Hakkat]

Yeah, P:M development team really knows what they are doing. They made a great game. They really know how to add balance to a game. And Kneato, you're right, I personally like P:M's physics much better than Melee's. Now it feels like no matter who you chose, you still have a chance of victory (if you know how to play the character, of course )

 

[Paradoxium]

Lol

Lol, I get bored on Mondays/Tuesdays and I don't have much to do, so I like to talk about Smash.

ANYWAYYY....I agree 100% with that. All the best players in Melee used Fox, Sheik, Jiggs, and sometimes Falco. Now in P:M it feels like they almost threw tiers out the window (which is epic)

np man I know exactly how you feel, there is almost nothing to do during summer. That's why I find myself coming here daily

 

[210stuna]

We do. Only for friendlies though.
When playing seriously I need variation.

I read your first post as being sarcastic, and/or along the lines of using legal stage at least.

Also this thread some what reminds me of when Brawl came out and people were telling the Melee crowd to "open their mind" to new gaming mechanics.
Glad this is for the better though as I agree Project: M is the better game.

I have a few friends of mine who only get to play P:M when I bring my SD over, and the only complaint I get is "You're cheating, because I swear you figured the whole game out"

It's more like I figured out who I main as, but you get the gist of it.
They be all mad cause' I stay styling on them.

 

[SpiderMad]

You '13 reg dates don't know nouthin bout this game okay?

 

[cultofrubik]

You '13 reg dates don't know nouthin bout this game okay?

Aw, coming from a '12er. How cute!

As far as contributing to the thread, I love being able to play characters taken from Brawl and have been completely reworked, edited, and given so much love to. When I pick up a new character in P:M, I feel rewarded almost immediately! It's like opening up a Christmas present that wasn't on my wish list. But, it turns out to be exactly what I wanted!

Literally just a little bit away from purchasing a Wii again. I hate waiting for a friend of mine to comeover to play P:M!

 

[mas_torque]

Got my first chance to really sit down and play PM tonight. I love this game. So far I think it's almost perfect. The lvl 9 cpu AI is great and I find it really fun to play against since it plays like a real person with wding and shuffles and everything. Almost every character I used felt polished and really well balanced. I can't wait for the rest of the characters to be released. Movement is so smooth too. My movement in melee is only ok but everything feels easier in PM.
This might be my favorite smash now.

 

[trojanpooh]

I find Project M to be better in nearly every way. It's not perfect yet, but if nothing else it's "close enough", getting better with every iteration, has more characters, and it better balanced. The only thing that keeps me coming back to Melee every once in a blue moon is playing as Samus and Pichu.

 

[210stuna]

People still play Melee?

 

[trojanpooh]

I love playing as Pichu. Obviously he's not gonna be winning me any tournaments, but there's nothing quite like cleaning the floor with someone playing as Pichu. And damage infliction aside he plays great. He feels like Pikachu and Captain Falcon made an, admittedly ********, baby.

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

The "It's not Melee!" guys need to learn something. As Brawl hacking becomes more free in terms of what we can change and potentially add, the game will only feel more and more like Melee's engine. They also SHOULD learn that Melee, despite being the most competitive Smash thus far, does have flaws in balance that have held back the scene a MONUMENTAL amount.
1. Just because you have learned Fox's techs does not permit a instant win.
2. Wobbling is NOT a balanced bug like WaveDashing.
3. Variety in character selection and viability is KING. (I do hope we can bring back the Forgotten 4/5 though)
These are a small selection from many points that must be noticed to make the perfect form of Melee gameplay.

 

[Vashimus]

Wavedashing isn't even a bug, just an exploit of the game's physics engine. You're using the momentum from an airdodge and moving along the ground with it. That simple.

But anyways, yeah. I don't want the game to replicate EVERYTHING Melee has either, as I like some of the things P:M has right now. For instance, it's easy as hell to angle forward-smashes in P:M since you can hold up or down while executing it. I love that, since they were a pain in the ass to do in Melee, where you instead had to tilt the stick at a weird angle between 4 and 5 o'clock.... it was just stupid. I actually like I can hold down A to do the multijab after performing the regular A combo normally. I like doing running up-smashes with just the flick of the C-stick. I like flashing when I L-cancel properly. I love how Pikachu has his much improved Brawl D-Smash that actually sucks in for each hit rather than in Melee, and you know what? For that same reason, I prefer Brawl Samus' Screw Attack more than her Melee one, and can only hope it still has that vaccuum effect in P:M. You can call me a scrub or whatever for actually liking these things and defending them, but what would be the reasoning to downgrade these things back to how they were before? Because Melee?

"A preceding title should act as an inspiration for a sequel, a launch pad aiming the production towards greater things. A sequel shouldn't be weighed down by irrelevant traditions for the sake of consistency. We've already played the first one, let's see what new stuff the second one can show us." -Egoraptor

 

[Juushichi]

RIP Game Grumps.