Community Samus Design Issues That Need Resolving Video

[DungeonMaster]

Okay, rather than have a new gripe thread every few weeks let's get this out there so we can all move on.
Hopefully get some exposure and some developer change.

Many people want to help, and it's a lot of work to assemble all the ciips, this is the structure I'm setting out and we can discuss it in the arguments but here's the list and I'm going to add links and *Complete* as we fill the list:

Moves with animations that do not match the hitboxes, whiffy:
D-air (edges) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXCoeHU-JU#t=0
F-smash blindspot https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=14
F-smash explosion https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=17
N-air (forward hit) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=0
N-air (back hit) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXCoeHU-JU#t=18
D-smash opponent on ledge blindspot
Dash-attack https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=3
Grab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYp-p8VEtxg#t=143

Moves that extend hurtboxes in ridiculous ways:
Up-tilt interrupted early https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXCoeHU-JU#t=58
F-tilt interrupted early https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXCoeHU-JU#t=29
F-smash interrupted early
Grab interrupted after connecting

Moves that should not clank but do:
Up-B interrupt - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=24
Up-B true clank
Stale big hits, up-tilt, smash vs 1 damage jabs

Multi-hit falling-out / failure to connect in spite of lining up correctly:
Up-smash first hits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=55
Up-smash middle hits
Up-smash final hit miss
Up-B grounded
Up-B aerial

The hardest possible punish due to absurd startup/end-lag:
Shield grab.
Standing grab. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXCoeHU-JU#t=73
Pivot grab.
Missiles, both types
Fair

Any other priority that isn't covered by issues above,
Aerial vs. aerial

Other general gripes which may get fixed (jab1->jab2 will not, no point further discussing) :
D-smash comparison vs. other characters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7CewcWnKs8#t=30
Aerial charge shot frame by frame vs. grounded to disprove the tool tips
General missile stupidity (@Squaddle's video in good res) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2_6RaaMdp8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDXCoeHU-JU#t=80

 

[DungeonMaster]

Reserved. I'm still working on this. Links to already existing clips being posted shortly.

I need multiple examples, and we want the best of the best, most obvious, most hilarious/sad. So post away.

 

[Darklink401]

What does the tooltip say about the chargeshot? o.o

 

[DungeonMaster]

``This is devastating when fully charged. It can be unleashed instantly if you fire it while airborne."
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U)

Yeah if only. It's actually nearly as slow as d-air. I'm really not sure what he means by this, maybe it was intended to hint towards the fact that Samus has aerial CS true combos, which none of the other charge style characters have.
16 frames is not instant.

 

[Darklink401]

What does the tooltip say abo

``This is devastating when fully charged. It can be unleashed instantly if you fire it while airborne."
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_tips_(SSB4-Wii_U)

Yeah if only. It's actually nearly as slow as d-air. I'm really not sure what he means by this, maybe it was intended to hint towards the fact that Samus has aerial CS true combos, which none of the other charge style characters have.
16 frames is not instant.

....

Yknow

I'm starting to think he meant that it unleashes without charging, while airborne xDD

Like the uncharged one.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

What does the tooltip say abo

....

Yknow

I'm starting to think he meant that it unleashes without charging, while airborne xDD

Like the uncharged one.

I actually just realized this the other day. I guess I didn't get it before because they were trying to spin the lack of mid-air charging as a positive thing.

 

[Afro Smash]

Lucario has d throw > fair > aura sphere as a true combo :-(

 

[White_Pointer]

The fully charged shot should not clank with ANY other projectile. It's the only charge projectile that can't be charged while in the air, so to compensate for this it should not clank or lose to anything. Right now it clanks with duck hunt's gunman AND clay pigeon and pretty sure the can blocks it too. It also clanks with Bowser Jnr's mecha koopa, bombs from both Links, Lucas' PK fire, Villager's Lloid rocket, pretty much all of Pacman's projectiles and even Sheik's grenade. It actually flat out loses to Ness' PK Fire, Rob's Gyro and Olimar's yellow pikmin.

It should not clank or lose to ANY of those, considering it takes ages to charge AND can only be charged on the ground.

That's leaving aside the fact that the charge shot itself is her primary kill move and a third of the cast have a reflector or some other move that completely neutralises it. I believe a fully charged shot should break reflectors, or Samus should have the ability to reflect a reflected charged shot back again.

 

[Darklink401]

The fully charged shot should not clank with ANY other projectile. It's the only charge projectile that can't be charged while in the air, so to compensate for this it should not clank or lose to anything. Right now it clanks with duck hunt's gunman AND clay pigeon and pretty sure the can blocks it too. It also clanks with Bowser Jnr's mecha koopa, bombs from both Links, Lucas' PK fire, Villager's Lloid rocket, pretty much all of Pacman's projectiles and even Sheik's grenade. It actually flat out loses to Ness' PK Fire, Rob's Gyro and Olimar's yellow pikmin.

It should not clank or lose to ANY of those, considering it takes ages to charge AND can only be charged on the ground.

That's leaving aside the fact that the charge shot itself is her primary kill move and a third of the cast have a reflector or some other move that completely neutralises it. I believe a fully charged shot should break reflectors, or Samus should have the ability to reflect a reflected charged shot back again.

Villager riding the lloid at a specific height actually just powers through fully charged CS without taking damage xD

it's silly.

 

[Zylach]

The fully charged shot should not clank with ANY other projectile. It's the only charge projectile that can't be charged while in the air, so to compensate for this it should not clank or lose to anything. Right now it clanks with duck hunt's gunman AND clay pigeon and pretty sure the can blocks it too. It also clanks with Bowser Jnr's mecha koopa, bombs from both Links, Lucas' PK fire, Villager's Lloid rocket, pretty much all of Pacman's projectiles and even Sheik's grenade. It actually flat out loses to Ness' PK Fire, Rob's Gyro and Olimar's yellow pikmin.

It should not clank or lose to ANY of those, considering it takes ages to charge AND can only be charged on the ground.

That's leaving aside the fact that the charge shot itself is her primary kill move and a third of the cast have a reflector or some other move that completely neutralises it. I believe a fully charged shot should break reflectors, or Samus should have the ability to reflect a reflected charged shot back again.

A lot of the examples you mentioned actually have hurtboxes. It's not clanking with ROB's gyro, it's legitimately being eaten by it. ROB's gyro is basically Luma. The same goes for gunman, mecha koops, and Link's bombs I'm certain. I understand why it's neutralized but that doesn't mean it makes the situation any better as Samus' fully charged CS shouldn't be neutralized by such trivial things. If projectiles acted like actual attacks did in melee where a move used against another move would outprioritize it if it did more than 9% comparatively. Since CS does 25%, it would go straight through anything that did lower than 16% which is basically all projectiles that aren't CS-esque. The good thing is, CS does go through some of the most problematic projectiles like Link's boomerang, plumber fireballs, needles, and... Samus' missiles. Something doesn't seem right about that lol.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

The fully charged shot should not clank with ANY other projectile. It's the only charge projectile that can't be charged while in the air, so to compensate for this it should not clank or lose to anything. Right now it clanks with duck hunt's gunman AND clay pigeon and pretty sure the can blocks it too. It also clanks with Bowser Jnr's mecha koopa, bombs from both Links, Lucas' PK fire, Villager's Lloid rocket, pretty much all of Pacman's projectiles and even Sheik's grenade. It actually flat out loses to Ness' PK Fire, Rob's Gyro and Olimar's yellow pikmin.

It should not clank or lose to ANY of those, considering it takes ages to charge AND can only be charged on the ground.

That's leaving aside the fact that the charge shot itself is her primary kill move and a third of the cast have a reflector or some other move that completely neutralises it. I believe a fully charged shot should break reflectors, or Samus should have the ability to reflect a reflected charged shot back again.

Losing to yellow Pikmin is fair. The elemental resistances are just a part of Olimar's tool-kit.

 

[DungeonMaster]

The good thing is, CS does go through some of the most problematic projectiles like Link's boomerang, plumber fireballs, needles, and... Samus' missiles. Something doesn't seem right about that lol.

THIS. This goes into the general "missile stupidity" section.

 

[MOI-ARI]

man the past week been recording the Samus...and i have a few "ban worthy" instances where Samus get ****ed over by shenanigans.

The only one that comes to mind is one that I have, where her Up B is going in for a kill on Mario, pretty high up from the stage...

Mario just does his Dair tornado thing and Samoose dies....like instantly. I dont even think i was over a hundred percent.
The animation of Screw attck started and everything, but alittle before i was able to hit Mario, he still had time to do his move xD And killed my ass.

 

[DungeonMaster]

man the past week been recording the Samus...and i have a few "ban worthy" instances where Samus get ****ed over by shenanigans.
The animation of Screw attck started and everything, but alittle before i was able to hit Mario, he still had time to do his move xD And killed my ***.

Upload to youtube and give the time of the failure of up-B. That's the point of this thread.
We all contribute little pieces and make a big video.
If I tried doing it alone it would probably not be done before next patch. We can probably have this list covered in a week or two if people contribute.

 

[Zylach]

man the past week been recording the Samus...and i have a few "ban worthy" instances where Samus get ****ed over by shenanigans.

The only one that comes to mind is one that I have, where her Up B is going in for a kill on Mario, pretty high up from the stage...

Mario just does his Dair tornado thing and Samoose dies....like instantly. I dont even think i was over a hundred percent.
The animation of Screw attck started and everything, but alittle before i was able to hit Mario, he still had time to do his move xD And killed my ***.

I've literally never seen this happen. Usually, under these circumstances, both moves trade. Screw attack trades with a lot more than it should but I've never seen it beaten out like that by a non-disjointed move.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I've literally never seen this happen. Usually, under these circumstances, both moves trade. Screw attack trades with a lot more than it should but I've never seen it beaten out like that by a non-disjointed move.

Screw attack consistently loses to high priority d-air style moves, disjoint or not, like yoshi-bomb. Can even lose to Samus d-air, which is not exactly high priority.

 

[MOI-ARI]

Screw attack consistently loses to high priority d-air style moves, disjoint or not, like yoshi-bomb. Can even lose to Samus d-air, which is not exactly high priority.

Wow I didn't know mario had a legit hit box underneath him as well when he is doing his tornado.Goodness. xD

Turns out screw Attack was coming out maybe 4 frames AFTER Mario tornado, but even then why such range so quickly and robust UNDER HIM. IM PRETTY FAR, NO? lol you can see the cloud where SA started...

 

[Zylach]

Wow I didn't know mario had a legit hit box underneath him as well when he is doing his tornado.Goodness. xD

Turns out screw Attack was coming out maybe 4 frames AFTER Mario tornado, but even then why such range so quickly and robust UNDER HIM. IM PRETTY FAR, NO? lol you can see the cloud where SA started...
View attachment 67608

So, it's just Mario having dumb disjoints.

 

[White_Pointer]

A lot of the examples you mentioned actually have hurtboxes. It's not clanking with ROB's gyro, it's legitimately being eaten by it. ROB's gyro is basically Luma. The same goes for gunman, mecha koops, and Link's bombs I'm certain. I understand why it's neutralized but that doesn't mean it makes the situation any better as Samus' fully charged CS shouldn't be neutralized by such trivial things. If projectiles acted like actual attacks did in melee where a move used against another move would outprioritize it if it did more than 9% comparatively. Since CS does 25%, it would go straight through anything that did lower than 16% which is basically all projectiles that aren't CS-esque. The good thing is, CS does go through some of the most problematic projectiles like Link's boomerang, plumber fireballs, needles, and... Samus' missiles. Something doesn't seem right about that lol.

I do understand why the move clanks or loses, I'm just saying it *shouldn't*, given how long it takes to charge and the fact it can only be charged on the ground.

IMO the only projectile move that it should arguably lose or clank against is Mega Man's fully charged forward smash.

Losing to yellow Pikmin is fair. The elemental resistances are just a part of Olimar's tool-kit.

I don't agree. A fully charged shot should not just lose to a thrown pikmin that required no charging, regardless of the colour. The other pikmin already block her missiles -_-

I've literally never seen this happen. Usually, under these circumstances, both moves trade. Screw attack trades with a lot more than it should but I've never seen it beaten out like that by a non-disjointed move.

I have. It's actually happened to me 2 or 3 times, going for an up b in the air to finish off a Mario, only for him to down air and somehow KO me off the top instead. Like the Mario matchup wasn't hard enough already, you also need to deal with crap like that.

Screw attack consistently loses to high priority d-air style moves, disjoint or not, like yoshi-bomb. Can even lose to Samus d-air, which is not exactly high priority.

Yoshi bomb doesn't have any real priority on it, at least when executed in the air. Pretty much any move can knock him out of it, including screw attack but it might depend on timing.

 

[Xygonn]

Megamans fsmash is transcendent.

 

[JAZZ_]

Yea megamans Fsmash passes through projectiles and vice versa, your CS will always get through but power shield that Fsmash because its getting through too

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

I'm stoked about this! I totally had clips for you too, but then the patch deleted them... again. v_v

Working on it!

 

[JAZZ_]

I'm stocked about this! I totally had clips for you too, but then the patch deleted them... again. v_v

Working on it!

Now just save all future replays you can to youtube. (really hope they up that upload limit to longer than 3 minutes)

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm stoked about this! I totally had clips for you too, but then the patch deleted them... again. v_v
Working on it!

Please and thanks! If people contribute it'll be a handful of weeks to a video, If I'm stuck filling most gaps, might take forever...
I lost all my replays from 1.08 / 1.09 and I had a lot of stuff.... I'm still mad...

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm working on getting video for d-air, n-air (back hit) whiffyness and d-smash blind spots tonight.
I might also get hardest punish on grab if I have time. I think @ Afro Smash had good ideas for that one.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Ok, so here I have examples of the d-air animation not matching hitbox, the back hit of n-air likewise.
Some examples of f-tilt pointlessly extending hurtbox, some examples of up-tilt doing the same.
Some of this **** is just completely ******** JANK we've been dealing with for months, I have no idea why the $%& you would program multi-hitbox moves where one hitbox can clank and simultaneously your extended hurtbox gets hit.
It's baffling how every last bit of Samus' body is perfectly rendered as a hurtbox, like her falling away leg or arm but conversely Samus' arm and foot can go clearly through Pika and Villager's HEADS and nothing happens.

More videos people, let's fill out the list!

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Good stuff. I'd help if I could.

 

[L9999]

Ok, so here I have examples of the d-air animation not matching hitbox, the back hit of n-air likewise.
Some examples of f-tilt pointlessly extending hurtbox, some examples of up-tilt doing the same.
Some of this **** is just completely ******** JANK we've been dealing with for months, I have no idea why the $%& you would program multi-hitbox moves where one hitbox can clank and simultaneously your extended hurtbox gets hit.
It's baffling how every last bit of Samus' body is perfectly rendered as a hurtbox, like her falling away leg or arm but conversely Samus' arm and foot can go clearly through Pika and Villager's HEADS and nothing happens.

More videos people, let's fill out the list!

Why hasn't this been patched yet? Those hitboxes are awful. Seriously, one day of this Youtube will be filled of Samus fail/EWW montages and the Smash team/Sakurai won't even care.

 

[JAZZ_]

@ DungeonMaster would it be ok to add you as a friend on the NN? i might have some videos but i dont have a capture card and theyre longer than nintendos 3 minute limit. i could send you replays that exceed that limit i think..

 

[DungeonMaster]

Absolutely, if you can't upload to youtube for whatever reason send me the video with a comment indicating the time of the sillyness. Really extreme examples are the best. NNID: Dalaeck

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

I'd like to request a video of both jab1 and sourspot ftilt being punishes by little mac's KO punch, if that's possible. It's the hardest punish I've seen.

 

[Vyrnx]

I was fighting a G&W today, and when I fsmashed his up smash (at sweetspot range) I hit him during the up smash' invincibility frames, which is fine, but then his up smash hit me when I was standing a full fsmash sweetspot range away. That's a huge distance for G&W's up smash, which doesn't have great range. I think it was because fsmash has some crazy ridiculous hurtbox... Lost the stock over that lol. Maybe if someone could get video of this? It's pretty bad.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

Finally got a good one of u-smash failing three times in a row in one match.

 

[Hapajin]

Could we get some footage of F-tilt getting punished on-hit? I really want F-tilt fixed...

 

[Metallinatus]

One thing that have grinded my gears is how inconsistent the tether recovery is....
The other day I was literally right in front of the ledge and pressed the grab button....
She did a Fair and died.
Funny stuff.

 

[DungeonMaster]

@ -_ellipsis_- and @ Hapajin my guess is we will NOT get the unsafe on hit aspect of f-tilt and jab1 at close range fixed. The first they have a tooltip, the second was a deliberate patch adjustment.
However in any argument it's good to have ammunition - so we do need a few shots of how unsafe certain actions are on hit - even a few aerials. So feel free to contribute examples of hardest punishes to those moves and I'll add a section.
My specific examples for f-tilt are the stupidty of how that multi-hitbox works, It should ALL clank and not have my knee clank and my toe still be considered hurtbox.That's just dumb.
We should not be punished for having good reach, not in this way where we are constantly exposing hurtbox, before, after, during moves.

@ Vyrnx upload to show. Yeah I'm half tempted to change the sonic example because it is also an invincible up-smash. I think we will get little mercy, because from his design perspective he probably feels it's fair game. Is it by chance highly disjointed?
The priority rule is 8 damage, if a move does 8> damage then you get priority. We need an example of the hurtbox being exposed before the f-smash hitbox is out - I actually tried this with luma and rosa, and for some reason it seems fine - but I know for fact that I've had my f-smash interrupted in the past. We also need an f-smash that barely whiffs, and the extended arm getting hit.

@ The_Woebegone_Jackal Great! We have several examples of initial hit (trivial to set up) looking forward to getting examples of mid-move and end-of-move fallouts.

@ Metallinatus Agreed, it's frustrating but with time you do eventually get a good "feel" for when it will fail. It's also impossible to show in a video example, a casual viewer will just think you missed input and SD.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

One thing that have grinded my gears is how inconsistent the tether recovery is....
The other day I was literally right in front of the ledge and pressed the grab button....
She did a Fair and died.
Funny stuff.

Try air-dodging first and cancelling it into a z-air. That usually works. The tether recovery is really unreliable in general tho, unless you're ZSS and your side-b works from a mile away.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Screw the tool tip. The devs should patch that out, too. The tool tip is wrong. Better to retreat after the first hit? Sure, at least make that option available. The tool tip should say "don't even bother for the first 40%, you're gonna get hurt and there's nothing you can do about it. "

 

[Vyrnx]

@ DungeonMaster I saved the replay on a 3DS. Do you know how I could upload it?

 

[JAZZ_]

One thing that have grinded my gears is how inconsistent the tether recovery is....
The other day I was literally right in front of the ledge and pressed the grab button....
She did a Fair and died.
Funny stuff.

@ SpottedCerberus well I got used to its inconsistency, and its not actually inconsistent, its just a matter of using it so much you know where itll grab.
@ Metallinatus it follows a pattern. if you get hit off stage, you will do an aerial,If your in tumble, youll do an aerial. one way to get the tether everytime is to attack or airdodge out of the tumble. a safe attack to use that actually helps you recover amazingly well is your bombs. you can bomb jump towards the edge for a tether, bomb jump stall out an opponents edge guard then tether, or just recover close enough for the screwattack to save your biscuits.
Another way to ensure easy tether usability and Zair efficiency is realigning your buttons so that you have easy access to grab. my controller of choice is the gamepad/wii u pro and the Y button is my grab. for a gamecube config if i had to play with a gamecube controller again id use X as my grab being that out of the X and Y jump buttons which ever one is directly up on the controller is the button I tend to only use to jump, for GC its Y for Wii U its X. Leaving the other for a perfect grab button option.