Community Reference: Dealing with 'Jank' (Current: Sheik's Needle Camping & Customs Palutena)

[Unknownkid]

I have another topic suggestion: How to deal with all the stupid jab locks in the game (especially Fox's)...
As a Bowser Jr. main, it's incredibly frustrating to basically get wobbled from 0 up to high %s then Usmashed.
Any suggestions for breaking out of it?

Use a different character or pray your opponent messes up. No, I am serious. Based on the video, Bowser Jr. is one of the characters that cannot break out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agTPENb_1gY

 

[Jaxas]

Discussion about the Ledge-camping Villager running Explosive Balloon Trip and Counter Timber strategy is now complete.​

Next Discussion Topic:
Dealing with Donkey Kong's Kong Cyclone​

We need to answer at least (note, the answers are not full answers, just my thoughts/ideas on the matter):

• What the strengths of the move are
  • Super armor through much of the move
  • Giant windbox
  • Kills
• What universal counterplay options are available against it, in each relevant state (on the ground, on a platform, airborne, recovering, etc)
  • Windboxes have no effect on people holding Shield, and Kong Cyclone doesn't do that much shield damage
  • Command (or even normal, if you can pull them off) grabs beat Super Armor
  • Punishing the endlag
• How to limit the strategy from becoming stronger
  • Do not let Donkey Kong select Battlefield, because he can ledge cancel the move easily there

So, what further questions are there to answer, and how can we answer these questions better?

I have another topic suggestion: How to deal with all the stupid jab locks in the game (especially Fox's)...
As a Bowser Jr. main, it's incredibly frustrating to basically get wobbled from 0 up to high %s then Usmashed.
Any suggestions for breaking out of it?

In all honesty, I know very little about this...
but this may indeed be one technique that forces a character switch.

Do not take my word on that though, as I legitimately know very little about the jab locks, or their counterplay. You may be able to (S)DI out or something, but if so I'm unaware of how. I'll add it to the list in the OP, though!


Also, about Diddy I'm going to quote part of @Luigi player 's post over in the Character Competitive Impressions thread, just as a bookmark of sorts:

I can live Diddys uairs from the ground at 140 or in the air after a dthrow at 130 (if they connect because Diddy is at like 0 % so that it combos) with characters like Sonic. If I wouldn't live it I don't get hit because I DI away and jump away. Airdodging is almost always just a free uair for Diddy even though you could've avoided the uair easily. This information needs to be spread. It's really annoying seeing people do it every time and lose stocks because of it, even though they could've avoided it easily.

This reminds me though...

Come on guys, we need more discussion about Diddy.
Specifics like "DI the Dthrow <X> way at <Y> percent range", "DI the Uthrow <X> way at <Y> percent range", etc.

Especially (as @ Budget Player Cadet_ said) the Uthrow one,
(Or we need confirmation that the only real counterplay is "do NOT get grabbed at <whatever> percent or you die", so that at least we know.)

Thanks!

 

[Pazx]

Diddy main here to talk about Uthrow Uair. Unless you're on Halberd or a platform, uthrow uair only KOs at very specific percentages. Because these percentages are so precise they change pretty significantly depending on character and stage, but it generally doesn't kill below 60% and can be escaped above 80%. DI in front of Diddy, however I think perfect execution means you're eating an Uair regardless of DI so this is to throw the Diddy off and can be mixed up with DIing behind Diddy which is only marginally less optimal, neither are really enough to save you.

By the way, for most characters the range that this works is usually smaller than 6% and is affected very much by rage. DI in your choice of direction, mash jump and hope that the Diddy messes up (the input timing is somewhat strict) or the percentages are in your favour. If you know for certain you're at a percentage it will KO it's worth remembering that getting by anything that isn't a banana or grab means you'll survive the uthrow setup and should prepare for the dthrow.

Percentages tested in training mode, fresh uair and/or stale uthrow = less strict frame and percentage window (but Diddy never has a fresh uair unless he was just KOed so R E L A X)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Xanadu's stream last night had a DK using Kong Cyclone and there was...I think a Ness? Getting punishes in on it. I know JohnNumbers did it too as WFT of all characters.

Although Battlefield is a must-strike, I've also seen a lot of DKs on stream counterpick Halberd and Delfino a lot. While Halberd has the low ceiling for uair kills and Delfino has the water for spike traps, both of these stages also let DK shark with Cyclone.

 

[Unknownkid]

I believe Lylat is more dangerous. That is the only reason we keep seeing Airbender DK on Battlefield.

Video of a Hawaii Diddy player Ltails capitalizing on DKwill's Kong Cyclone (who knows how to autocancel KC consistently) -
http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/b/643318099?t=2h28m13s
http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/b/643318099?t=4h15m31s (SHOT FIRED FROM NinjaLink here)

Based on frame data and what other failed to understand, KC does not have invincibility on startup or anywhere else actually. Just Super Armor. It activates 15 frames after DK's Up B and 5 frames before the final hits. So you can essentially trade with DK at the beginning since KC's initial hit does like 4-6 damage and severe terrible KB or use a multi-hit move/ where you think it going to end.

Haha Reserved is right. Kirby is Anti-Meta. Kirby has multiple ways beat this with his Default Kit. Inhale, Dair, Fair, Hammer Flip, Stone... You name it, he got it.

 

[Raijinken]

I believe Lylat is more dangerous. That is the only reason we keep seeing Airbender DK on Battlefield.

Video of a Hawaii Diddy player Ltails capitalizing on DKwill's Kong Cyclone (who knows how to autocancel KC consistently) -
http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/b/643318099?t=2h28m13s
http://www.twitch.tv/theodofaction/b/643318099?t=4h15m31s (SHOT FIRED FROM NinjaLink here)

Based on frame data and what other failed to understand, KC does not have invincibility on startup or anywhere else actually. Just Super Armor. It activates 15 frames after DK's Up B and 5 frames before the final hits. So you can essentially trade with DK at the beginning since KC's initial hit does like 4-6 damage and severe terrible KB or use a multi-hit move/ where you think it going to end.

Haha Reserved is right. Kirby is Anti-Meta. Kirby has multiple ways beat this with his Default Kit. Inhale, Dair, Fair, Hammer Flip, Stone... You name it, he got it.

I'm not getting how Hammer Flip helps against Cyclone, but I can see the rest. What's useful about Hammer Flip there?

 

[Unknownkid]

Hammer Flip doesn't activate its super armor until you release a fully charged swing. The move's Super Armor frames last long enough to withstand Marth/Lucina's Counter (it happens to me all time in FG). So, essentially, you can knock DK off the stage, charge the hammer and the windbox will you carry up with him. When the second hit about to occur, you release the swing. The Super Armor will tank the second hit and you send DK to his death if he at 85-90% or something in the middle of the stage.

Wait... I just tested it. Kirby doesn't get super armor while he is in the air. I guess you can trade with him.

 

[Jaxas]

Well discussion about this stuff appears to have died off now; I'm assuming it's at least partially due to the patch, as there seems to be a site-wide lessening of Sm4sh discussion.

Also, I think I'm going to (temporarily) close discussion about Diddy Kong, because the Dthrow->Uair combo is the most likely thing to get tweaked in the balance patch; discussion on it is semi-pointless if it's gone in under a week, after all. If it's still around I'll re-open that topic come the 15th(/16th).

Anyways, I'm going to bookmark a quote from @ Blobface from the impressions thread:

On Kong Cyclone: Kong Cyclone has a significant limitation in that you must autocancel it. (When DKWill fought Boss, he missed an autocancel and Boss ran all the away across smashville and still had plenty of time to bop him with SJP.) Because of this, the amount of places DK can move with it are very limited. If he's grounded/slightly above stage, he can go to platforms. If he's offstage, he can go to the main stage. What this means is that you almost always know where he's going to go with it, with the single exception being Battlefield which is easily Kong Cyclone's best stage.

On top of that, being on a platform with someone below you is always a bad thing. If Kong Cyclone doesn't hit, DK is in disadvantage.

 

[deepseadiva]

*prayer circle all this dies when it's patched out Wednesday*

 

[thehard]

Excellent showing by Tweek vs. custom Zee: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19aTdVl9_h4

 

[Blobface]

If we're still talking about Kong Cyclone, Flame Choke beats it out when you're at the same level, and if DK goes onto platforms he gets to go through all the fun of getting through Ganon's U-smash.

While getting through Pushy Loid and Sapling can be problem (not so much with Dropkick which goes right over Sapling and has low endlag), Ganon's D-tilt beats out Edge shenanigans so hard. Ganon can just sit there and shield the balloons and wait until he has an opening to D-tilt Villager.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A chap going by BKG on Youtube has made a pair of videos that go over the top 10 custom moves (as perceived by him) and talk about their strengths and weaknesses. Seems relevant to this topic, assuming it hasn't been mentioned before.

Part 1 (#10-6)
Part 2 (#5-1)

 

[Jaycen_Thunda]

If I can make a suggestion to add to the "Future Topics to discuss" list if it's related:

"Dealing with Projectile Walls. (R.O.B's Gyro, Villager's Hydrant, Etc)"

I personally come from a Street Fighter background and in Street Fighter, I can atleast corner them to stop them from running and make them feel unsafe to use projectiles. But the free form mobility Smash has makes it incredibly difficult for someone like me to deal with a solid projectile and lock someone down.
Walking and Shielding doesn't work forever when escape options are so numerous.

 

[Jaxas]

Now that the dust is settling from v1.0.6, I figure it's time to get this back up and running.

Updates to the OP
First up, a couple things have changed with the patch:

• "What to do after getting grabbed by Diddy" is no longer on the topics list (it may return, but it's not as big of a priority anymore)
• "Dealing with Order Tackle + Amplifying Reflector" is no longer on the list (the glitch was fixed)

Also, "Dealing with projectile walls" was added to the to-do list, at @ Jaycen_Thunda 's request.

Current Topics
As of right now, we're going to have 2 new (well, 1 new 1 continued) discussion topic.

Topic A: Dealing with 's Kong Cyclone (Continued)​

I'll be updating the OP with a better work-in-progress writeup, likely tomorrow.

Topic B: Dealing with 's Infinite Combo (Thunder Wave + Meteor Quick Attack)​

I'll be adding things here in the near future, but basic things to know for now:

• This likely requires Meteor Quick Attack (considered a direct, massive downgrade by the Pikachu boards)
• This requires you to hit Thunder Wave (super unsafe on shield) from point-blank range
• There are no EVO sets that have both Thunder Wave and Meteor Quick Attack

I have more to add on this, but I need to get some sleep soon. I should be able to update this more tomorrow.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

How to deal with Pikachu's infinite:

Step 1: when Pikachu jumps at you at the incredibly precise spacing/angle needed to start the infinite and you are between 40% and 60% and Pikachu has both customs equipped (which he probably shouldn't), shield.
Step 2: when Pikachu uses an incredibly unsafe, poorly-spaced projectile on your shield, apply foot to rat anus, as seen in following picture:

Step 3: Laugh.

 

[DunnoBro]

Actually, ganon can just dark fist and it kills pikachu absurdly early lol.

Don't be hitting that man's shield unless your will is in order.

 

[Jaxas]

Well it looks like people beat me to it, but I'd also like to possibly explore more ways to counter it. Things such as

• Can you SDI out?
• If you're caught
  • What should you be inputting in hopes they screw up?
• What are Pika's setups into it (what to avoid)
  • I've heard he can footstool people out of Utilt and combo that into the Thunder Wave, for example
• Variants on the setup
  • Things like taking Heavy Skull Bash instead of Meteor Quick Attack (which is apparently trash?) and just killing the opponent instead of continuing the infinite (and how this changes things; can Pika QA->TWave?)

Stuff like that.

(I won't actually have time to test things myself for another day or two, but these are what I'm planning on looking into in the future)

 

[thehard]

Dealing with Cyclone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2-GuhJCZ2g&feature=youtu.be

 

[webbedspace]

Topic B: Dealing with 's Infinite Combo (Thunder Jolt + Meteor Quick Attack)​

Just to be clear the custom itself is called "Thunder Wave", whereas Thunder Jolt is the default move.

 

[Jaxas]

Just to be clear the custom itself is called "Thunder Wave", whereas Thunder Jolt is the default move.

Whoops, fixed

 

[Jaycen_Thunda]

Dealing with Cyclone: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2-GuhJCZ2g&feature=youtu.be

To make sure I'm clear, the tech here is to take the multi-hit and Air dodge the last hit?

 

[Pogoshark]

How to deal with Pikachu infinite?
Beat them because they have no spacing tool or recovery anymore

 

[digiholic]

While it's true that a Pikachu using the infinite is taking strictly worse moves and can easily be punished if it whiffs, I think it's still important to discuss what to do if he does manage to start it off. Can you change the angle Thunder Wave pops you in with DI? If so, you could mix up your angle by going high and possibly getting him to miss the first Meteor Quick Attack, giving you time to jump out before he can do his second.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Actually, ganon can just dark fist and it kills pikachu absurdly early lol.

Don't be hitting that man's shield unless your will is in order.

I didn't even think of that. Fist that ass > kick that ass. Gotcha.

To make sure I'm clear, the tech here is to take the multi-hit and Air dodge the last hit?

You can virtually always avoid dying this way. Like, it will never kill you. Worst case scenario, you lose positional advantage. That's... not that bad, honestly. Beats taking 12% and maybe dying.

 

[Pogoshark]

While it's true that a Pikachu using the infinite is taking strictly worse moves and can easily be punished if it whiffs, I think it's still important to discuss what to do if he does manage to start it off. Can you change the angle Thunder Wave pops you in with DI? If so, you could mix up your angle by going high and possibly getting him to miss the first Meteor Quick Attack, giving you time to jump out before he can do his second.

You cant DI at all to save yourself, All you can really do is hold shield and hope they mess it up.

You can just tech anything Pika does to try and initiate it though, If he gets you in a jab lock he can start it so make sure you're ready to tech/jump away after you get nair'd or forward thrown at low percent.

Thunderwave is pretty garbage by itself though, only deals 1-2% and travels half the distance. Meteor quick attack is even worse, though I dont think its needed since you can just charge Heavy Skull Bash after the Twave wears off for a stock, or simply charge upsmash.

 

[Blobface]

I didn't even think of that. Fist that *** > kick that ***.

Whenever I see someone spamming "safe" aerials and I have Dark Fists equipped, I make this face.

Spoiler

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Jaxas is there enough material here for a summary on dealing with Kong Cyclone?

 

[thehard]

I forgot Will tweeted this a while back:

 

[Jaxas]

@ Jaxas is there enough material here for a summary on dealing with Kong Cyclone?

There should be; I'll get it typed up by tomorrow.

Anyone have requests on what's up for discussion next?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

"There, I did your homework"

OOH THE CALLOUT. Shoutouts to DKWill.

Next topic... Can we talk about Shiek's neutral game? Like, her entire neutral game? Or is that too broad?

 

[BestTeaMaker]

"There, I did your homework"

OOH THE CALLOUT. Shoutouts to DKWill.

Next topic... Can we talk about Shiek's neutral game? Like, her entire neutral game? Or is that too broad?

How about we start with her fair strings?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

"There, I did your homework"

OOH THE CALLOUT. Shoutouts to DKWill.

Next topic... Can we talk about Shiek's neutral game? Like, her entire neutral game? Or is that too broad?

If you want to focus down a bit, how about "Which of Sheik's moves are punishable?"

 

[Jaxas]

I'm working on the writeups for both Kong Cyclone and Pika's infinite currently, but I need slightly more info on one thing:

I forgot Will tweeted this a while back:

Could you link me this conversation? It's the first I've heard of the first hit being invincible, and I don't have the means to test it myself currently.


Also...

Next topic... Can we talk about Shiek's neutral game? Like, her entire neutral game? Or is that too broad?

How about we start with her fair strings?

If you want to focus down a bit, how about "Which of Sheik's moves are punishable?"

I'd be perfectly fine with discussing characters as a whole (global 'things to watch out for' and tactics that do/don't work against them), though I'm not sure if we should do so here or in another thread dedicated specifically to that.
I'm also not sure how well it would work, since the character mains (who likely know the most) probably aren't going to want to give away all their secrets and weaknesses; it's definitely better to try though!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm working on the writeups for both Kong Cyclone and Pika's infinite currently, but I need slightly more info on one thing:


Could you link me this conversation? It's the first I've heard of the first hit being invincible, and I don't have the means to test it myself currently.


Also...




I'd be perfectly fine with discussing characters as a whole (global 'things to watch out for' and tactics that do/don't work against them), though I'm not sure if we should do so here or in another thread dedicated specifically to that.
I'm also not sure how well it would work, since the character mains (who likely know the most) probably aren't going to want to give away all their secrets and weaknesses; it's definitely better to try though!

Long Twitter conversation, it's in there though. IDK if there are any secondary sources to corroborate DKWill's statements but I'm inclined to believe him.

In lieu of "lol Sheik" how about Sonic's Spin Dash and/or custom variants thereof? (since both Hammer and Burning Spin Dash seem pretty good AFAIK.)

 

[Unknownkid]

Burning Spin Dash got "nerf/fixed". There is no point to using it over Hammer Spin Dash.

 

[Lavani]

It's the first I've heard of the first hit being invincible, and I don't have the means to test it myself currently.

The invincibility window exists on the aerial versions of all three of DK's upBs, and it does in fact line up with the first hit for Kong Cyclone/Spinning Kong.

In lieu of "lol Sheik" how about Sonic's Spin Dash and/or custom variants thereof? (since both Hammer and Burning Spin Dash seem pretty good AFAIK.)

Is Burning Spin Dash still worth using after 1.0.6? I was under the impression the major reason to use it over the other spin dashes was the invincibility, which is gone now (and was the jankiest thing about it).

Hammer Spin Dash likely warrants discussion though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The invincibility window exists on the aerial versions of all three of DK's upBs, and it does in fact line up with the first hit for Kong Cyclone/Spinning Kong.


Is Burning Spin Dash still worth using after 1.0.6? I was under the impression the major reason to use it over the other spin dashes was the invincibility, which is gone now (and was the jankiest thing about it).

Hammer Spin Dash likely warrants discussion though.

I thought it was default Spin Dash that got changed and they left the customs alone? IDK, whatever. I don't actually use Sonic so I'm probably out of date WRT him.

 

[Jaxas]

Discussion complete:
Dealing with 's Kong Cyclone​

Overview​

Donkey Kong's 2nd custom Uspecial, "Kong Cyclone", is definitely the kind of move you don't want to fight blind. With huge hitboxes, super armor, killing potential, and a massive windbox, this move trashes most incorrect attempts at challenging it while also making DK much more difficult to edgeguard.
However once you understand how the move works, it becomes a much different beast; make no mistake, Kong Cyclone is still a good move - it's just not broken good, and there is significant counterplay to it.

From our discussion, the most important thing to do when against a DK using Kong Cylone is not challenge it directly (unless you have a command grab!), shield if you're on the ground (windboxes don't affect shielding opponents!), and time your airdodge (or aerial, if you're feeling risky) correctly if you're caught by it.

There are also a few other basics to keep in mind:

• Don't let DK go to Battlefield (or Lylat, if you can help it), because then he can ledge-cancel the Kong Cylone to have extremely minimal end-lag. Halberd and Delphino are more stages to strike/ban if you can, as they allow him to Shark with the move
  
• Watch out for the fact that this move autocancels; you have to punish before he hits the ground unless he's fairly high up!

Dealing with the Strategy​

Frame Data of the move (from DK Frame Data Smash 4)
Windbox | Active Hitbox | Invincibility Frames | Super Armor Frames | Total Frames

Move | Active Frames | Total Frames | Free Fall Lag | Ledge Grabs | Effective Shieldstun | Notes
Kong Cyclone | 19 , 20-46? , 49 | 71 | | | 1, 1 | 20-45
Kong Cyclone (Air) | 3-6 , 15-39? , 41? | 67? | 40? | 23+? | 1, xx, xx | 3-6 ... 15-35 ... Transitions to the ground version if you land early

Note: @DKwill has claimed that there is Invincibility on the first hitbox, so watch out for that as well

• General Information
  
  • DK must to either autocancel or ledge cancel the move
    • The highest I was ever able to get KC to autocancel from in my tests was slightly lower than DK's standing height (around where his mouth normally is, judging visually)
      • (You can test yourself easily; grab XX3X DK, go to Battlefield, stand under one of the low platforms, and Short Hop. From the top of the Short Hop it won't Autocancel, while from just under this height it will)
    • Kong Cyclone can ledge-cancel on any ledge
    • If DK does not successfully do one of these, he will have massive endlag
      
    • Kong Cyclone always rises the same distance vertically (mashing seems to have no effect)
      • As such, as long as you know the vertical distance it travels you know...
        1. If the opponent mis-used the move, and will be open for punishment or
           
        2. Where the opponent is forced to go to ledge/autocancel the move (Which will most often be above you, which is a bad position for them to be in)
• Options to use while Grounded
  • Shield is your best option
    • Windboxes do not affect shielding characters, and the move deals very little shield damage.
      
      • Make sure you don't get read though, as DK has some good anti-shielding tools (Headbutt, Ground Pound, etc)
  • Well-timed projectiles will stuff this attack, you just have to hit while there's no SuperArmor
    
  • Grabs work as well
    • If you're on a platform or something, you can simply grab him out of the move between his hitboxes
    • Command grabs work just as well; see the "Further Strategies" section for more info
• Options to use while Airborne
  • Pay attention to the move, and time your airdodge
    • Avoiding the last hit of the move isn't as difficult as it seems, but you must know the timing for it
  • Use a Multi-Hit aerial
    • If you simply throw out a Multi-Hit aerial (such as ///'s Uair, ///'s Fair, etc), you can easily catch the non-armored parts of the attack. You still have to time the move, but the window is significantly more lenient.
    • The timing to hit him is directly after the first hit, or directly before the 2nd
  • Command Grabs still beat this move, and often work incredibly well for suicide-killing. See the "Further Strategies" section for more info

Further Strategies​

• If you have an aerial command grab, using it almost auto-counters this technique
  • Flame Choke, Bite, Nosferatu (Suicide-kills offstage)
  • Jumping Inhale (Windbox from Kong Cylcone + jump carries them way offstage; can kill or suicide kill)
  • Confusion beats it, and leaves Mew2 at an advantage. 's Egg Lay and Egg Launch do the same
  • Monkey Flip, / Uspecials, grab-based Sspecials, etc

Video References​

• WindKong and You

Reference: Full Discussion​

• Starting Post -> Ending Post

Current Discussion Topics:​

• 's Thunder Wave and Followups
  
  • While I was writing up the report of Pikachu's Infinite, I decided to refocus the topic and continue discussion.
  • Thunder Wave -> Meteor Quick Attack really isn't the important portion of this: Thunder Wave -> Heavy Skull Bash is
  • Also, Thunder Wave does not actually (seem to) have to be connected from point-blank range to initiate this; Thunder Wave appears to retain the full stun time as long as the aerial version hits, so Pikachu can initiate this much more safely by double jumping then using it (yes I'm aware this is a terrible idea, but Pika can QA out of any obvious punish attempts, and lands at the same time the TW hits)
• 's Hammer Spin Dash
  • I know little about this move, except that it's intangible (?) on the way up and grounds/meteors on the way down, while doing less damage. I'll look into it more, though

Also, looking at characters as a whole (global options against them, strengths/weaknesses, etc) in this thread is still under consideration; please let me know if that's the direction you'd like this thread to take, or if you're against that.

 

[Unknownkid]

Apparently, Super Armor beats paralyzing effect. I test it against ZSS with Kirby's Giant Hammer. You might want to add that Moves with Super Armor can counter Thunder Wave initial setup.

 

[verbatim]

I know the conversation has ended, but I'd just like to point out that Kirby's custom down B Meteor Stone is the Perfect hard counter to stallager. If you catch Villager on the ledge with it you can kill from as low as 40 percent. Mike Kirby demonstrated it at Smash Attack 6, winning a set in 6 minutes.