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"Combo Paths"

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
Everytime i see a combo video, either you get someone who uses originality..or someone who simply considers themselves good because they chained a falcon uair combo (still sexy though.)

Is there someway to path out combos?
and what kind of paths could be made?

firstly, I thought maybe all these ideas could be made into one giant video, (that is if you want them to) or just simply to increase the metagame.

Secondly, I think these 4 things are essential to creating good combos.

1. Tilt options
2. Aeirals
2. Wall/Ceiling Relays (including grabs)
3. Level selection
4. (TAS)???

all i'm saying is that we should put our heads together and think of more intresting ways to do combos, and if you have such intresting ideas (which i know you people do) then share them.

maybe it would even attract more people to this board...

i feel like i was takling out of my ***, but it was just a simple thought that made me go "hmmm.."
 

StealthECartman

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Dec 18, 2006
Messages
109
Location
Sioux Falls, SD
Most 64 combo potential has already been discovered and is already being utilized, I don't really see the point of this thread. I agree though, that the same combos do get used more often than they should...it's hard to get out of the habit.
 

Korrupshen

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
518
Location
dat place
all i'm saying is that we should put our heads together and think of more intresting ways to do combos, and if you have such intresting ideas (which i know you people do) then share them.
All we need is Malva and Isai's head they be pulling off that crazy **** combos.
 

Blade689

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 12, 2010
Messages
285
Location
Emeryville
Yes, I am actually trying to write out a formula to combos and a way to describe the range of possibilities.

I'm trying to locate and define variables at the moment, and I still think I am missing a few.

Its going to take note of every strike in the game for the value of stun out time and distance it provides at different ranges of percent.

I started this like 2 weeks ago. Kept writing out terms and possible ways to look at a combo. This version is trying to look at it like a science...... still rough, but its a valid description.

Variables/terms:
1) Contact Hit-The attack that causes Stun Time (ST) for the target.
2) Follow Up Hit- The Possible attacks that can be tacked on, which allow for further moves.
3) Finisher- The possible attacks that can be added on, but does not continue a combo.
4) Damage Range- The range of % in which a strike can lead into a Follow Up Hit.
5) Teching- Requiring a specific event ex:
- Wall Tech- Using a wall on the stage to continue the combo, or decreasing CoDI.
- Platform Tech - Have target hit a platform or floor during the combo.
- Dropping Tech - hitting the character bellow the original height of the previous attack.
- No Clutter - Requires that nothing is in the way.
6) WCS - Wieght Class Specific (Character's size or weight is a technical concern for the Follow Up Hit)
7) N-WCS- Non-Weight Class Specific (Character only requires a Damage Range for follow up to be possible)
8) Path- The movement specific events that must happen between attacks.
-FF (Fast Falling)
-Dash
-DJ (Double Jump)
-DJC(Double Jump Cancel)
-SH (Short Hop)
9) WUF- Warm Up Frames (time needed before you actually make contact)
10) CDT- Cool Down Time (Time need before you can properly move or attack again)
11) ST- Stun time (the opponent can not do anything but use DI or Tech out. Normally in the Air, but stun time can take place on the ground as well, the important part is that they can only respond by moving.)
12) CoDI- Cone of Directional Influence (The potential change of the fall or drift in the target's DI Control). Its the description of Trajectory the target has taken, or continues to take. Calculate with the Assumed center, then test the plausible range to left or right with DI. Either their Jump has been used, or it can't be used in time for this element of my formulas.
13) RJC- Reset Jump Count (You have either grabbed, or the target has touched the ground, which resets the 2nd jump (for Jiggy/Kirby/Mario/Luigi it is more).

Descriptions:
1) Unbreakable- A Follow Up Hit that will lead into another attack without stopping the combo.
2) Break- The plausible movements required for a Path Elimiated, or an attack that leads to escape of the Combo.
3) Path Eliminated - A projectile or element to the game that stops the combo path from the Follow Up Hits or Finisher. This does not describe a lack of Teching, more of shifts in movement ot work out side of the Combo. Using the CoDI to the fullest. )ex: Path Eliminated from DI to the right = combo break.)
4) Counter Break- The different senarios or shifts that occur to stop breaks
5) Juggle- A series of Contact hits that Keep the target unable to Reset Jump Count (RJC).
*Note that Contact Hit, Follow Up Hit, and Finisher are also in Descriptions.

I'm first trying to identify every element of a combo before I continue to write down formulas, but the basic idea is that we could then define terms from statements like:
ST (Stun Time) - CDT (Cool Down Time) = X (Damage Range)
X (Damage Range)/ WCS (Weight Class Specific) [Note that most likely bigger characters will have a higher WCS, so it allows for a longer period of time to be combo'ed while they are in ST, but Weight is calculated by % of effect in my reference. I should transfer weight to a multiple formula for ease] = Y (Time Of CoDI)
During this period of time called Y, any attack that follows the formula:
P (Path) + WUF (Warm Up frames that don't overlap in Path) < Y = Unbreakable.

What I want to do is to go through footage and map out sequences. Most of these things can be proven through math though. There are many threats that show attack frames I am using for reference.
Ex:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=100456
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2VcZS6YDXFZBqNHNze3oUw&gid=1


Private Message me if you want to discuss it further.... cuz I kind of sound like a nut when I write out all of these things..... and well, until proven..... its just another theory. I believe we naturally understand these laws in smash brothers, yet I have never found of a chart big enough to map out the game...... and I figured if its not a chart, its a sequence of estimated events, within parameters, that can be calculated.
 

Uzima (Uzi)

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 23, 2008
Messages
1,680
Location
Colorado Springs
Yes, I am actually trying to write out a formula to combos and a way to describe the range of possibilities.

I'm trying to locate and define variables at the moment, and I still think I am missing a few.

Its going to take note of every strike in the game for the value of stun out time and distance it provides at different ranges of percent.

I started this like 2 weeks ago. Kept writing out terms and possible ways to look at a combo. This version is trying to look at it like a science...... still rough, but its a valid description.

Variables/terms:
1) Contact Hit-The attack that causes Stun Time (ST) for the target.
2) Follow Up Hit- The Possible attacks that can be tacked on, which allow for further moves.
3) Finisher- The possible attacks that can be added on, but does not continue a combo.
4) Damage Range- The range of % in which a strike can lead into a Follow Up Hit.
5) Teching- Requiring a specific event ex:
- Wall Tech- Using a wall on the stage to continue the combo, or decreasing CoDI.
- Platform Tech - Have target hit a platform or floor during the combo.
- Dropping Tech - hitting the character bellow the original height of the previous attack.
- No Clutter - Requires that nothing is in the way.
6) WCS - Wieght Class Specific (Character's size or weight is a technical concern for the Follow Up Hit)
7) N-WCS- Non-Weight Class Specific (Character only requires a Damage Range for follow up to be possible)
8) Path- The movement specific events that must happen between attacks.
-FF (Fast Falling)
-Dash
-DJ (Double Jump)
-DJC(Double Jump Cancel)
-SH (Short Hop)
9) WUF- Warm Up Frames (time needed before you actually make contact)
10) CDT- Cool Down Time (Time need before you can properly move or attack again)
11) ST- Stun time (the opponent can not do anything but use DI or Tech out. Normally in the Air, but stun time can take place on the ground as well, the important part is that they can only respond by moving.)
12) CoDI- Cone of Directional Influence (The potential change of the fall or drift in the target's DI Control). Its the description of Trajectory the target has taken, or continues to take. Calculate with the Assumed center, then test the plausible range to left or right with DI. Either their Jump has been used, or it can't be used in time for this element of my formulas.
13) RJC- Reset Jump Count (You have either grabbed, or the target has touched the ground, which resets the 2nd jump (for Jiggy/Kirby/Mario/Luigi it is more).

Descriptions:
1) Unbreakable- A Follow Up Hit that will lead into another attack without stopping the combo.
2) Break- The plausible movements required for a Path Elimiated, or an attack that leads to escape of the Combo.
3) Path Eliminated - A projectile or element to the game that stops the combo path from the Follow Up Hits or Finisher. This does not describe a lack of Teching, more of shifts in movement ot work out side of the Combo. Using the CoDI to the fullest. )ex: Path Eliminated from DI to the right = combo break.)
4) Counter Break- The different senarios or shifts that occur to stop breaks
5) Juggle- A series of Contact hits that Keep the target unable to Reset Jump Count (RJC).
*Note that Contact Hit, Follow Up Hit, and Finisher are also in Descriptions.

I'm first trying to identify every element of a combo before I continue to write down formulas, but the basic idea is that we could then define terms from statements like:
ST (Stun Time) - CDT (Cool Down Time) = X (Damage Range)
X (Damage Range)/ WCS (Weight Class Specific) [Note that most likely bigger characters will have a higher WCS, so it allows for a longer period of time to be combo'ed while they are in ST, but Weight is calculated by % of effect in my reference. I should transfer weight to a multiple formula for ease] = Y (Time Of CoDI)
During this period of time called Y, any attack that follows the formula:
P (Path) + WUF (Warm Up frames that don't overlap in Path) < Y = Unbreakable.

What I want to do is to go through footage and map out sequences. Most of these things can be proven through math though. There are many threats that show attack frames I am using for reference.
Ex:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=100456
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2VcZS6YDXFZBqNHNze3oUw&gid=1


Private Message me if you want to discuss it further.... cuz I kind of sound like a nut when I write out all of these things..... and well, until proven..... its just another theory. I believe we naturally understand these laws in smash brothers, yet I have never found of a chart big enough to map out the game...... and I figured if its not a chart, its a sequence of estimated events, within parameters, that can be calculated.
If a combo formula was perfected, you could possibly program it into the combs, and create god coms, 0-death you with anything, every single time.

Now that'd be amazing.
 

felipe_9595

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,431
Location
Chile
Most 64 combo potential has already been discovered and is already being utilized, I don't really see the point of this thread. I agree though, that the same combos do get used more often than they should...it's hard to get out of the habit.
I dont think so. Kirby Combo potential is unexplored here in usa. I have never seen an american player doing pivotutilts or rock cancel finishings combos, never.
 

ciaza

Smash Prodigy
Premium
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
2,759
Location
Australia
I saw Malva do a brick combo against Sheer online. Not sure if Malva counts though lol. Besides what does it matter if you are American or Japanese or whatever? We're all playing the same game. (Albeit with slight differences.)
 

dandan

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 11, 2009
Messages
1,373
quite big differences though, *** is really different to ntsc, not only with less di but also with less hitlag. and lets not even mention pal... :S
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
Yes, I am actually trying to write out a formula to combos and a way to describe the range of possibilities.

I'm trying to locate and define variables at the moment, and I still think I am missing a few.

Its going to take note of every strike in the game for the value of stun out time and distance it provides at different ranges of percent.

I started this like 2 weeks ago. Kept writing out terms and possible ways to look at a combo. This version is trying to look at it like a science...... still rough, but its a valid description.

Variables/terms:
1) Contact Hit-The attack that causes Stun Time (ST) for the target.
2) Follow Up Hit- The Possible attacks that can be tacked on, which allow for further moves.
3) Finisher- The possible attacks that can be added on, but does not continue a combo.
4) Damage Range- The range of % in which a strike can lead into a Follow Up Hit.
5) Teching- Requiring a specific event ex:
- Wall Tech- Using a wall on the stage to continue the combo, or decreasing CoDI.
- Platform Tech - Have target hit a platform or floor during the combo.
- Dropping Tech - hitting the character bellow the original height of the previous attack.
- No Clutter - Requires that nothing is in the way.
6) WCS - Wieght Class Specific (Character's size or weight is a technical concern for the Follow Up Hit)
7) N-WCS- Non-Weight Class Specific (Character only requires a Damage Range for follow up to be possible)
8) Path- The movement specific events that must happen between attacks.
-FF (Fast Falling)
-Dash
-DJ (Double Jump)
-DJC(Double Jump Cancel)
-SH (Short Hop)
9) WUF- Warm Up Frames (time needed before you actually make contact)
10) CDT- Cool Down Time (Time need before you can properly move or attack again)
11) ST- Stun time (the opponent can not do anything but use DI or Tech out. Normally in the Air, but stun time can take place on the ground as well, the important part is that they can only respond by moving.)
12) CoDI- Cone of Directional Influence (The potential change of the fall or drift in the target's DI Control). Its the description of Trajectory the target has taken, or continues to take. Calculate with the Assumed center, then test the plausible range to left or right with DI. Either their Jump has been used, or it can't be used in time for this element of my formulas.
13) RJC- Reset Jump Count (You have either grabbed, or the target has touched the ground, which resets the 2nd jump (for Jiggy/Kirby/Mario/Luigi it is more).

Descriptions:
1) Unbreakable- A Follow Up Hit that will lead into another attack without stopping the combo.
2) Break- The plausible movements required for a Path Elimiated, or an attack that leads to escape of the Combo.
3) Path Eliminated - A projectile or element to the game that stops the combo path from the Follow Up Hits or Finisher. This does not describe a lack of Teching, more of shifts in movement ot work out side of the Combo. Using the CoDI to the fullest. )ex: Path Eliminated from DI to the right = combo break.)
4) Counter Break- The different senarios or shifts that occur to stop breaks
5) Juggle- A series of Contact hits that Keep the target unable to Reset Jump Count (RJC).
*Note that Contact Hit, Follow Up Hit, and Finisher are also in Descriptions.

I'm first trying to identify every element of a combo before I continue to write down formulas, but the basic idea is that we could then define terms from statements like:
ST (Stun Time) - CDT (Cool Down Time) = X (Damage Range)
X (Damage Range)/ WCS (Weight Class Specific) [Note that most likely bigger characters will have a higher WCS, so it allows for a longer period of time to be combo'ed while they are in ST, but Weight is calculated by % of effect in my reference. I should transfer weight to a multiple formula for ease] = Y (Time Of CoDI)
During this period of time called Y, any attack that follows the formula:
P (Path) + WUF (Warm Up frames that don't overlap in Path) < Y = Unbreakable.

What I want to do is to go through footage and map out sequences. Most of these things can be proven through math though. There are many threats that show attack frames I am using for reference.
Ex:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=100456
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p2VcZS6YDXFZBqNHNze3oUw&gid=1


Private Message me if you want to discuss it further.... cuz I kind of sound like a nut when I write out all of these things..... and well, until proven..... its just another theory. I believe we naturally understand these laws in smash brothers, yet I have never found of a chart big enough to map out the game...... and I figured if its not a chart, its a sequence of estimated events, within parameters, that can be calculated.
i will most definitely get back to you.
 

NixxxoN

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 16, 2008
Messages
3,726
Location
Barcelona
Im glad that "kirby's potential is unexplored"
The ssb64 community would be a worse place with a lot of "pro kirbies" utilting their way to victory
 

Battlecow

Play to Win
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
8,740
Location
Chicago
I've always been unimpressed by Alpha's kirby. maybe there's something I'm not getting but...
 

ciaza

Smash Prodigy
Premium
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Messages
2,759
Location
Australia
I have the same feelings as Battlecow, I checked out some of his vids and yeah he's quite good but nothing super-amazing.

I too could also be missing something though.
 

malva00

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 1, 2002
Messages
3,864
Location
54th and 5th
felipe is the same guy who said all of south america hated me, so don't take everything he says seriously
 

felipe_9595

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 9, 2010
Messages
1,431
Location
Chile
Professor, you are so noob, you get mad because i said " We need to wait 2-3 years until all we can play melee online at full fps rate"

Noob xD
 

Tambor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
223
Location
Santiago, Chile
When I saw the topic title I thought this would be a combo video :ohwell:
felipe is the same guy who said all of south america hated me, so don't take everything he says seriously
We don't take him seriously either, so yeah... Just don't listen to him, he's just 15 and still needs some maturity.

Now, let's get back on topic: I think it's a horrible idea, but good luck. I just can't imagine a group of people developing a combo.
Now, I admit this is a very egoistical line of thought, but, personally, I like keeping my ideas to myself. I feel like, if I discover it, then I should be the one who does a combo with it. Both the idea and the execution is part of the art that is comboing. If I have a beautiful idea, how could I trust it to someone else? By what I've seen on youtube, if I had a cool Falcon idea and told someone to put it in a combo, then the combo would be the cool idea with a lot of uairs and an upb. No, thanks.
 

asianaussie

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Messages
9,337
Location
Sayonara Memories
ssb64 combo potential group focus + brainstorm sessions ONLINE

might be me but that sounds stupid in so many ways

Leave creativity up to creative people/TASers/people with way too much time on their hands. In this case, too many cooks spoil the broth. You don't see artists asking other artists to give ideas on how to finish their work, because it was born from their inspiration.
 

ballin4life

Smash Hero
Joined
Nov 12, 2008
Messages
5,534
Location
disproving determinism
When I saw the topic title I thought this would be a combo video :ohwell:

We don't take him seriously either, so yeah... Just don't listen to him, he's just 15 and still needs some maturity.

Now, let's get back on topic: I think it's a horrible idea, but good luck. I just can't imagine a group of people developing a combo.
Now, I admit this is a very egoistical line of thought, but, personally, I like keeping my ideas to myself. I feel like, if I discover it, then I should be the one who does a combo with it. Both the idea and the execution is part of the art that is comboing. If I have a beautiful idea, how could I trust it to someone else? By what I've seen on youtube, if I had a cool Falcon idea and told someone to put it in a combo, then the combo would be the cool idea with a lot of uairs and an upb. No, thanks.
cmon, would I do that to you? :laugh:

also hypocrisy :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RVG1rijrmI
 

Tambor

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
223
Location
Santiago, Chile
I'd like to hear some shield breakers combos ideas. Especially with Fox.
Nair-uair-uair-finish with a strong hit (Upsmash works best, but even a dash attack works). Make sure you hit twice with those uairs. That's your best bet and it works if the other person releases the shield while you do the shieldbreak.
I also have one with only one shine, which goes like this:
Nair-bair-fair-shine-nair. Looks really cool, but I'm also pretty sure it only works if your opponent releases the shield.
If they try to shieldjump/roll, I think they have a chance of escaping depending on their timing. I dunno, I made these shieldbreaks before I realized shieldjumping/rolling is faster than releasing the shield.

EDIT:
cmon, would I do that to you? :laugh:

also hypocrisy :p
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RVG1rijrmI
Nah, don't worry, you wouldn't. ;)
Also, that video a) doesn't have an upb and b) is not really my combo anyways.
 

XKCP

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 4, 2009
Messages
418
Location
Baton Rouge, LA
If Kirby's potential is really "unfulfilled", which could be argued in terms of more creative combos, then I should really make a video. Brick and Fury Cutter FTW?

Btw, I call Fury Cutter = Final Cutter. I just prefer to use 'Fury' instead.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
Im glad that "kirby's potential is unexplored"
The ssb64 community would be a worse place with a lot of "pro kirbies" utilting their way to victory
I don't mind kirby. he's like the annoying little brother you're forced to play with until it becomes only natural to play with him and you stop caring.

i honestly would like to see more versatility with kirby, maybe we can stop versing dair spamming scrubs.
 

#HBC | ѕoup

The world is not beautiful, therefore it is.
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Messages
6,865
When I saw the topic title I thought this would be a combo video :ohwell:

I was thinking about doing that, but i'm still messing around with levels. blaze wants me to make a video also.

Now, let's get back on topic: I think it's a horrible idea, but good luck. I just can't imagine a group of people developing a combo.
Now, I admit this is a very egoistical line of thought, but, personally, I like keeping my ideas to myself. I feel like, if I discover it, then I should be the one who does a combo with it. Both the idea and the execution is part of the art that is comboing. If I have a beautiful idea, how could I trust it to someone else? By what I've seen on youtube, if I had a cool Falcon idea and told someone to put it in a combo, then the combo would be the cool idea with a lot of uairs and an upb. No, thanks.
I see what you mean, if i learned some cool trick/glitch i would like to keep it to myself so i can perform it un-suspecting people. :chuckle:


i would like to see fox combos in the japanese version involving his dshmash. the weird trajectory is cool.
perhaps some rapetent?
 
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