Cold Shoulders: Ice Climbers Social Thread

[Nemiak temp]

Hey folks. Having trouble with the handoff chaingrab near the ledge. I dthrow as popo, regrab as Nana and she just sits there and doesn't throw them. This doesn't always happen but it happens VERY frequently. Seems character dependent. Anyway this is really annoying and I'm wondering if I can do something to make her fthrow like she did in melee.

 

[Hylian]

Hey folks. Having trouble with the handoff chaingrab near the ledge. I dthrow as popo, regrab as Nana and she just sits there and doesn't throw them. This doesn't always happen but it happens VERY frequently. Seems character dependent. Anyway this is really annoying and I'm wondering if I can do something to make her fthrow like she did in melee.

This is happening because you are holding an attack button when she grabs them.

 

[Nemiak temp]

This is happening because you are holding an attack button when she grabs them.

That's annoying. Is this something from brawl? Does it have any use other than setting up popo for a free smash attack (which would be free anyway even if she threw them)

 

[Hylian]

That's annoying. Is this something from brawl? Does it have any use other than setting up popo for a free smash attack (which would be free anyway even if she threw them)

It's a glitch that is PM specific. You can grab them again if the break on the ground or just charge a smash.

 

[Mendelsin]

Sorry if this is asked alot, but I'm a bit out of the loop. What exactly is wrong with the Icies' grabs?

 

[Hylian]

Their throw release points are messed up, they release characters too high to regrab from fthrow in many cases.

 

[Mendelsin]

Their throw release points are messed up, they release characters too high to regrab from fthrow in many cases.

oh....that explains lot. Thanks! I heard it was fixed now for the next update?

 

[Hylian]

Yes, we fixed it for 3.5.

 

[Meme]

Anyone have hints for transitioning from Melee to PM Icies, specially with the timing of the wavedash, in Melee I can do it smoothy but in PM I end up doing horizontal air dodges or really sloppy and short dashes... d >_>b...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

My suggestion, wait till 3.5 hits. The IC's really need some help in this game..

 

[Meme]

Those are my thoughts currently, seems like overall ICs are currently in a harsh environment, although I play them every once in a while in friendlies.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

So I was messing with icies and accidently did a desync. It is probs discovered, so can someone tell me what the exact inputs are? I can do it 1/4 speed, but nothing else.
So I did a pivot, let go, and dashed while popo was pivoting (?). Nana dashed while popo stood there. I heard @chesstiger talking about pivot desyncs, maybe that is it? It also worked by just timing the halfway back joystick input perfectly.

Also, what is the easiest way to get Nana on the ledge? That could be really helpful.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Roll onto the edge of ledge and she will grab the edge
Or
Run to the ledge, RAR wavedash desync and she will grab ledge

 

[TheGravyTrain]

For the rar wavedash desync, how does that work? I assume I do a normal rar wavedash, but how does it desync them?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

They have differing movement distance with the RAR wavedash desync (probably because Nana performs the turnaround before differently) so you can grab the ledge with one climber only.

 

[Hylian]

Played mainly IC's at a tournament today, got 5th. I actually only lost one match in bracket with IC's, other losses were with link/lucario(who I won like none with lol). Feeling pretty good about them going into 3.5 .

 

[S2rulL]

So Icies grabs are getting fixed? Thank god! I knew there was something wrong with them. Started playing them in PM recently just cus I tend to care a lot less about PM than Melee and tried out a ton of different chars before just saying "Screw it, let's go lads." And I tried to dthrow+dair>regrab but just couldn't get it for the life of me.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Their neatral game is still very bad. The grabs alone won't fix them.

 

[S2rulL]

Yeah, I find that I end up having to rely on Melee tactics that involve mostly wavedash back and forth into dsmash.

 

[Iceman]

Their neutral game is fine. You can judge them until you have explored every possibility. What does everyone think about RAR back-air or just RAR in general?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I mean, if you play against spacies, Lucas, diddy other top tiers, etc, it just ain't happening. If you got vids of good players making it happen vs other good players, I'd love to see it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Their neutral game is fine. You can judge them until you have explored every possibility. What does everyone think about RAR back-air or just RAR in general?

RAR is a great tool but has a big startup in comparison to other movement options, so I would be careful to use it against non-conditioned opponents/ opponent not limited in their options. It has use for edgeguarding, and I can think of many desync scenarios where it is possible. Also a rar nair might be possible while retreating to catch high-speed low-range approaches.

Nana Ice Block -> RAR approach (now it is safe)
Same with Nanapult (Nana jump (forward)->blizzard)
Nana covers the startup passively (by being able to hit an attacker in theory), dashes forward during the RAR, covers the cooldown activley by attacking or grabbing

I think IC players should give more priority in being able to input what they want with both characters, sometimes it is really hard but there are missed possibilities everywhere.
I try to think of it as "non-interfering frames" where your action only affects one climber. The problem why players are cautious to use desyncs is that uding those frames is very hard.
Usable frames are every active move, jump startups, hitlag, landing lag, WD landing lag. Some inputs aren't even that bad if they interefere (if you buffer a side direction or something).

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Don't be so pessimistic
But I'd love to see some great IC play too.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm just being real here.

 

[Kef]

What really changed about their neutral from Melee to PM? I imagine not much because I haven't heard enough bitchin about their neutral, it's mostly wobbling. I thought that it was commonly agreed that they had better neutral than before to compensate for their loss of wobbling/infinites. In that case, if Fly/Wobbles/Nintendude and everyone else the community glorifies can beat the Melee top tiers, why can't you replicate this in this game?

I've been hiding a bit of tech expecting the PMBR to release 3.5 already so they don't change anything, but I don't see that happening now with Smash 4 releasing. I wouldn't mind posting some matches of my mediocre play to lighten the mood here, I think everyone should the same.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Only new desyncs, and those are underutilized apparently.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

What really changed about their neutral from Melee to PM? I imagine not much because I haven't heard enough *****in about their neutral, it's mostly wobbling. I thought that it was commonly agreed that they had better neutral than before to compensate for their loss of wobbling/infinites. In that case, if Fly/Wobbles/Nintendude and everyone else the community glorifies can beat the Melee top tiers, why can't you replicate this in this game?

I've been hiding a bit of tech expecting the PMBR to release 3.5 already so they don't change anything, but I don't see that happening now with Smash 4 releasing. I wouldn't mind posting some matches of my mediocre play to lighten the mood here, I think everyone should the same.

It's more so everyone else's neutral game, than their own. Then you have god like projectiles like, bananas, boomrang, fireballs, lasers and a few others.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Yeah the projectile + hitbox walls are real.

 

[Kef]

I honestly feel you guys might be overstating the importance of projectiles in the neutral. I way more scared of a character than can separate Nana quickly and kill her than a character than can out poke me/zone me.

I have a great WD + Powershield option to somewhat combat projectiles in the neutral, but with a character likes rushes me down like Mewtwo with Nair or deep Fairs, there is not much I can do (and the risk-reward game is without a doubt in his favor).

 

[Iceman]

RAR is a great tool but has a big startup in comparison to other movement options, so I would be careful to use it against non-conditioned opponents/ opponent not limited in their options. It has use for edgeguarding, and I can think of many desync scenarios where it is possible. Also a rar nair might be possible while retreating to catch high-speed low-range approaches.

Nana Ice Block -> RAR approach (now it is safe)
Same with Nanapult (Nana jump (forward)->blizzard)
Nana covers the startup passively (by being able to hit an attacker in theory), dashes forward during the RAR, covers the cooldown activley by attacking or grabbing

I think IC players should give more priority in being able to input what they want with both characters, sometimes it is really hard but there are missed possibilities everywhere.
I try to think of it as "non-interfering frames" where your action only affects one climber. The problem why players are cautious to use desyncs is that uding those frames is very hard.
Usable frames are every active move, jump startups, hitlag, landing lag, WD landing lag. Some inputs aren't even that bad if they interefere (if you buffer a side direction or something).

@ Hinichii.ez.™
Don't be so pessimistic
But I'd love to see some great IC play too.

Yeah I discovered that Iceblock Rar bair is really good. I also realize the possibilities of controlling both the climbers. The new desyncs open alot of new doors.

 

[S2rulL]

I see this term RAR being thrown around a lot, explain pls?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I see this term RAR being thrown around a lot, explain pls?

• Reverse Aerial Rush

Dash in one direction, flick the stick the other way and then back again and jump. When you jump, remember how you flicked the stick around? Well now, the momentum you had when running left/right continues onward, and you'll have your back facing the initial direction of the original dash input. It's good for sticking out that bair, reverse nairs, hitting that reverse uair etc. For IC tho, it's a lil meh if you don't do some sorta desync before hand, because the 11 or 14 frames of lag on their aerials(L cancel included) ain't cool.

 

[Hylian]

Ic's have a great neutral game with things that you couldn't really do effectively in melee or brawl. They fall short as a character because of their glass cannon aspect in conjunction with some crazy hitboxes on other characters leads to them taking stray hits more often then in the other game. They don't have the punish game to back up their frailness and in general are just bad because of match-ups.

Match-ups that I think IC's win in 3.02:
Donkey Kong

...

that's it.

At best they are even with a third of the cast and lose to the rest of it.

That being said, I have some sick neutral game tech I'll be showing off when 3.5 comes out, and I'll pretty much be exclusively playing IC's in 3.5 except against maybe peach. Can't wait.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

BREH that's cool
What about not doe??

EDIT: @ Hylian What the hell man, how do you say, they have a great neutral game, pause. And in the same post, you say, "that you think they have 1 winning match up," pause. A weak neutral game, would be one of the many reasons, that is. Unpause.

 

[Hylian]

BREH that's cool
What about not doe??

EDIT: @ Hylian What the hell man, how do you say, they have a great neutral game, pause. And in the same post, you say, "that you think they have 1 winning match up," pause. A weak neutral game, would be one of the many reasons, that is. Unpause.

There are a lot more variables in a match other than the neutral game. The fact that trading hurts them more than any other character is one of the glaring ones.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There are a lot more variables in a match other than the neutral game. The fact that trading hurts them more than any other character is one of the glaring ones.

See, The point I'm trying to get accros, is that it is one of the factors. Which people seem to think, it is not.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I agree with @ Hinichii.ez.™ here: The neutral is incredibly important because it starts everything else

 

[Kef]

Of course the neutral game is important, very important in fact, but I don't think Ice Climbers (even in PM) have to constantly be involved in it. They've never been a character praised for the neutral, they were always a character that usually got a couple of opportunities to land a hit and try to capitalize as much as possible. They are not a character like Samus, like Ivysaur, or even someone more familiar like Marth, which are characters that get their wins by slowly poking the opponent and get small sequences here and there. The ICs get a knockdown situation or grab where they make sure the opponent takes the highest amount of damage.

I understand their decent neutral is now more apparent because the lack of Wobbling or Brawl CGs, but I still believe that they can destroy someone once they get an opportunity. Grab anywhere is still an infinite, on anyone. So if all I have (supposedly) is a great wavedash, my universal shield, and a few desync gimmicks in the neutral, I am personally fine with that.

 

[Hylian]

See, The point I'm trying to get accros, is that it is one of the factors. Which people seem to think, it is not.

Of course neutral game is important in match-ups lol.

Can you explain to me why their neutral is bad? They have one of the quickest burst movement options in the game, a great jab, some of the best shield pressure, the ability to circumvent grabs(something no other character has), and disjointed hitboxes.

Neutral in this game is not everything. The fact that IC's have such a good neutral is the only thing that lets them compete at all with other characters, if they didn't they wouldn't be playable against any character. Peach is historically good against IC's because her neutral game completely counters their burst movement and approach options.

You cannot view IC's neutral like other characters..there are two of them. They do not have as good of a punish game(kef not sure how you can infinite anywhere on anyone, holding them in nanas grab seems unreliable to me) as the other games and other characters neutrals and punishes are much better than the other games. IC's are also amazing at getting a hit out of neutral with say nair, but it's much harder to get a grab due to their grab range. Trades can result in nana dying and then neutral completely changes as you no longer have desynching options. They DO have a great neutral it's just a frail neutral. High risk/High reward.

 

[Kef]

(kef not sure how you can infinite anywhere on anyone, holding them in nanas grab seems unreliable to me)

Agree with pretty much everything you said Hylian, I do think their neutral game is good (because of the reasons you mentioned).

The infinites (specially the midscreen one) seem a lot more mashable than Wobbling ever was, so I understand they are not foolproof but they are without a doubt a nice route to have for punishes in case of anything. I also feel combo routes are not fully optimized for ICs, so regular combos (and the infinites) have potential to be more consistent. I've never seen a video posted, so I guess I can give it a shot later on today.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Of course neutral game is important in match-ups lol.

Can you explain to me why their neutral is bad? They have one of the quickest burst movement options in the game, a great jab, some of the best shield pressure, the ability to circumvent grabs(something no other character has), and disjointed hitboxes.

Neutral in this game is not everything. The fact that IC's have such a good neutral is the only thing that lets them compete at all with other characters, if they didn't they wouldn't be playable against any character. Peach is historically good against IC's because her neutral game completely counters their burst movement and approach options.

You cannot view IC's neutral like other characters..there are two of them. They do not have as good of a punish game(kef not sure how you can infinite anywhere on anyone, holding them in nanas grab seems unreliable to me) as the other games and other characters neutrals and punishes are much better than the other games. IC's are also amazing at getting a hit out of neutral with say nair, but it's much harder to get a grab due to their grab range. Trades can result in nana dying and then neutral completely changes as you no longer have desynching options. They DO have a great neutral it's just a frail neutral. High risk/High reward.

It's more so everyone else's neutral game, than their own. Then you have god like projectiles like, bananas, boomrang, fireballs, lasers and a few others.

I mean, if you play against spacies, Lucas, diddy other top tiers, etc, it just ain't happening. If you got vids of good players making it happen vs other good players, I'd love to see it.

See, The point I'm trying to get accros, is that it is one of the factors. Which people seem to think, it is not.