Cliffhangers

[Roneblaster]

im not really following ur train of thought dudu

and those were 2 of the best posts in this thread for sure.

 

[Hax]

Sai you're getting way too sensitive over a petty insult i made about your spacing lol. i needed to point out mistakes you make that lead to you falsely believing that CC'ing beats this strategy when it doesn't. CC'ing doesn't work if the fairs are spaced perfectly

it was in response to this:

"Niko: You can definitely cc the fair and punish back, but then they can switch over to using bair. Then if you stand slightly away, you're in range of a more aggressive bair. There are obviously mixups that arise from this, but jigglypuff still has a large advantage the whole time"

 

[dudutsai]

Nah, I just don't see what your point was... now I do.
I'm very much trying to make an argument that it is a good strategy. Maybe not ban worthy, but very strong..

I'm pretty sure you can cc a weak/strong fair and punish back if you're fox and dash in. Maybe someone will show me the proper spacing technique someday.


Also the hate that I was talking about was mostly from Roneblaster. Who the hell is this dude anyways? At least I have results to show for my mediocrity

 

[Kyu Puff]

Reneblade, Sai is saying you attacked his post for no reason. He literally just said "if someone proves that it's broken, ban it" and agreed that it could be an unbeatable strategy in certain match-ups--which doesn't contradict anything Hax said--and you called him out for no reason. Maybe you should take your own advice and leave the posting to better players (or people who know how to read).

 

[Max?]

I'm still pretty convinced certain projectiles put a stop to this. I played Sai at ROM3 and this strategy was completely useless against properly spaced pills that go over the lip of the stage.

Er I'm sorry, ROM2.*

 

[dudutsai]

Yo I'm still salty about getting ***** at ROM2. I bet I can do better if we ever play again...

Also Doc has a projectile

 

[Max?]

Get at me at the next tourney we're both at, I'm trying to go out to a Mass Madness or HoG soon.

Do you disagree with me tho?

 

[dudutsai]

Nah.. Anyone with an angled projectile can beat it... Even Pika's gets hard to dodge after a while.

 

[VGmasta]

Yeah, I recall Raistlin's Puff ledgecamping in friendlies before. I was using Doc and perfectly spaced/timed pills did nothing to him. He just kept timing his aerials to where hitbox was out all the way to the time he gets to regrab. Could land a single pill against it.

The only way I got him off was to run up to the ledge and randomly wavedash OoS to grab ledge, or contest his aerials with Doc's aerials, which was still tough. If I managed to still ledge from him. I only got like a b-air on him, but none of Doc's airs knock Puff far enough to gimp or kill Puff. And Doc's f-air was too slow to punish the ledgecamping.

Raistlin's ledgestalling wasn't 'unbeatable', but I felt disadvantaged in the situation. KEEP IN MIND THAT THIS WAS DOC VS PUFF.

So I hear where Hax is coming from. M2K's ledgestalling just might be unbeatable guys.

 

[ph00tbag]

Yeah, I recall Raistlin's Puff ledgecamping in friendlies before. I was using Doc and perfectly spaced/timed pills did nothing to him. He just kept timing his aerials to where hitbox was out all the way to the time he gets to regrab. Could land a single pill against it.

The only way I got him off was to run up to the ledge and randomly wavedash OoS to grab ledge, or contest his aerials with Doc's aerials, which was still tough. If I managed to still ledge from him. I only got like a b-air on him, but none of Doc's airs knock Puff far enough to gimp or kill Puff. And Doc's f-air was too slow to punish the ledgecamping.

Raistlin's ledgestalling wasn't 'unbeatable', but I felt disadvantaged in the situation.

So I hear where Hax is coming from. M2K's ledgestalling just might be unbeatable guys.

Note: Unbeatable by Fox, Falcon and Falco.

Thus far, no one has really presented any info on whether other characters could beat the stalling. I'd suggest more characters that may have the options, but I guess I'm just not good enough to have a valid opinion on the topic.

 

[username12345678]

M2K doesn't have an unbeatable strategy, if he did he would be shameless about explioiting it just like everything else he does

sure is salt in here

 

[Roneblaster]

noononono, what i said was harsh but completely warranted.

calling some1 who is 100x better than you a scrub is not an argument and deserves to be called out.

i guess i just didn't read the middle line in dudu's original post where he said it is an unbeatable strat in some cases. cause i dont remember ever reading that.

 

[Metà]

noononono, what i said was harsh but completely warranted.

calling some1 who is 100x better than you a scrub is not an argument and deserves to be called out.

i guess i just didn't read the middle line in dudu's original post where he said it is an unbeatable strat in some cases. cause i dont remember ever reading that.

scrub is a mentality, not a level of skill. you can be one of the best in the world and still have a scrub mentality. it's totally fair to call someone that even if they're better than you, if they fit the definition of it.

maybe not the nicest thing to say, but whatever.

 

[gm jack]

I think Magnus did a post a post a while back showing that it wasn't unbeatable because puff isn't invincible when she goes to regrab. He even gave a strategy with falcon to beat it.

IIRC, it was full hop backwards at the ledge so that they will be going for the ledge when you could bair them. If they ledge hop a fair, dj away. If they don't go back to the ledge, you can then stall yourself until they come in range of a ledge hop aerial of your own.

I don't know how valid it is now, but no character is completely help less. People were calling jiggs as a whole broken when Hbox was destroying everyone. Then people adapted to the new (very good) strategy and started to beat him. At the moment, we don't know if it unbeatable because nobody has been forced to learn to beat it to win. Armada learning the puff match up with YL is an example of why we should leave things in until proven broken in tournament.

 

[Hax]

the risk to reward ratio of this strategy is just too in favor of Jigglypuff. if you somehow manage to hit her (which doesn't seem possible when M2K does it - he only fairs when he needs to) then you just took a huge risk to do 10-15% whereas she takes almost no risk to do 10% with a fair. this is why the "you're not completely helpless" logic doesn't work. something doesn't have to be literally impossible for it to constitute a ban

 

[_Rocky_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pFGbZLaslw#t=4m28s

stfu y'all plz

also if anyone started doing this to win tourneys he'd get lynched in no time lmao

 

[Abate]

edit: Abate, M2K 4 stocked jman w/ jiggs by using this strategy

part of me just died

if, say, hbox were to take a % lead (which is realistic) and then use this strategy, we'd all be ****ed

I agree with Rocky. If Hbox did this I really think he'd be lynched in the parking lot lolol

 

[VGmasta]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pFGbZLaslw#t=4m28s

stfu y'all plz

That ending was hilarious. But I think that Jigglypuff was messing up on the ledge. He didn't perfectly f-air to regrab ledge consistently. And there were times where the Falcon missed the ledge while trying to hit Puff off of the ledge, but then the Falcon didn't get punished very hard.

Those knees that Falcon landed while Puff was on the ledge seemed wayy too risky and I'm not convinced that approach would work very consistently against a Puff with a better cliffhanging game.

BTW, that's a hilarious signature you got there Rocky

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pFGbZLaslw#t=4m28s

stfu y'all plz

also if anyone started doing this to win tourneys he'd get lynched in no time lmao

omg lol g2 is the best match ever

though tbh you were the lame one there

so I kinda wanted you to lose :/

 

[dudutsai]

noononono, what i said was harsh but completely warranted.

calling some1 who is 100x better than you a scrub is not an argument and deserves to be called out.

i guess i just didn't read the middle line in dudu's original post where he said it is an unbeatable strat in some cases. cause i dont remember ever reading that.

Name a number. If I ever see your *** at a tourney I will MM you for that number.

Stick to making 5 second videos of semi glory dude

 

[_Rocky_]

omg lol g2 is the best match ever

though tbh you were the lame one there

so I kinda wanted you to lose :/

to be fair he told me beforehand that he would try to ledgecamp me so i kinda had to be pre-emptive

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

to be fair he told me beforehand that he would try to ledgecamp me so i kinda had to be pre-emptive

Oh? In that case I pardon you of all your sins.

Well done my man.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Name a number. If I ever see your *** at a tourney I will MM you for that number.

Stick to making 5 second videos of semi glory dude

The callout.

 

[Jonas]

Oh? In that case I pardon you of all your sins.

Well done my man.

Smasher89 embodies the "Play to Win" mentality like no other player. He's a cool guy outside the game and I have absolutely nothing against him, but he'll play like a lame-a** f**got if it'll help him win. He absolutely deserves to be lamed out, no matter what he intends to do or tells you about before the match

 

[Strong Badam]

I think Magnus did a post a post a while back showing that it wasn't unbeatable because puff isn't invincible when she goes to regrab. He even gave a strategy with falcon to beat it.

IIRC, it was full hop backwards at the ledge so that they will be going for the ledge when you could bair them. If they ledge hop a fair, dj away. If they don't go back to the ledge, you can then stall yourself until they come in range of a ledge hop aerial of your own.

I don't know how valid it is now, but no character is completely help less. People were calling jiggs as a whole broken when Hbox was destroying everyone. Then people adapted to the new (very good) strategy and started to beat him. At the moment, we don't know if it unbeatable because nobody has been forced to learn to beat it to win. Armada learning the puff match up with YL is an example of why we should leave things in until proven broken in tournament.

you mean Magus?

Spoiler

"impossible to grab the edge because of ledgehop invincible f-air"

If your character has a difficult time doing it or you don't want to risk it, do you really even need to grab the edge if you have a decent ranged low hitting attack? It always seemed to me like Jiggs poofs up above edge height a bit from her DJ unless you interrupt it and grab the edge using sing everytime. I don't have experience against it myself and this could be a dumb question, but have you tried staying out of range of ledgehop invincible f-air anytime immediately following an edge grab, moving in a bit when they drop back from the edge, and then if they dropped low enough maybe look to d-tilt or something them out of the jump?

Kinda like that I guess. Stay out of range, then once you see them drop far enough below/away from the edge go in and maybe attack like those gifs, or sometimes just go in and put up your shield to see if they jump early and do something expecting you to attack their regrab that you can punish and if not then just roll back to safety.



"ledgehop on/off stage f-air camping only"


Ok then.

Jiggs is vulnerable for at least 12 frames before the f-air animation can end and is able to grab the edge. About 9-10 of those frames are while she's still above stage height. If you're using an attack that can hit below the stage a little then you may be able to hit for all 12.

In this example with CF you'd jump right when Jiggs grabs on. You have time to react to them committing to going far on stage with the f-air and then you come down with a b-air, and if you see they didn't then you DJ back to safety.

i just want to see a Falcon try this ****... because no one wants to step up and learn how to beat the strat for whatever reason

 

[OverLord]

I can't tell how much I admire Rocky.

 

[Mew2King]

i actually 4 stocked jman twice with jiggs (I think I only played him like less than 10 times with jiggs in my life though). Once was at Winterfest in december 2009. I 0-deathed him twice with the same combo. Up throw, SH uair regrab, Up throw, pound, uair, double jump rest. I camped the edge then did that combo cuz I knew he'd DI towards the stage. 1 normal kill 1 back throw gimp and 2 of that combo. The other time I 4 stocked him was before Apex I just got the lead and planked him. I believe i 4 stocked hax twice using that strategy too but when i don't plank me and hax go back and forth with puff more or less. Huge difference when I plank than when I don't. I also did this strategy to Axe, Taj, and Forward a few days after a tournament called Devastation 2010 (I stayed in Arizona for almost a week). None of them could beat my planking jiggs, even once. Not mewtwo, sheik, falco, fox, or pikachu. I won like 10-0 totaled I think, just by getting the lead then planking with her fair mostly. The reason I don't risk it is cuz I'd rather just win with skill using one of my mains than risk it to get the lead in the beginning. I'm unconfident for that.

 

[gm jack]

That's the one.

Just because m2k is so much better than almost everyone he can seem untouchable. Until the tactic is used at a high level and people try to find counters to it, it's impossible to say which side is going to turn out be be accurate in actuality.

 

[Massive]

i just want to see a Falcon try this ****... because no one wants to step up and learn how to beat the strat for whatever reason

Jace's Falcon counters my (attempted, since it doesn't work due to this ****) ledgcamping with this exact tactic EVERY TIME WE PLAY.

Any crew with a Jiggs main should be painfully aware of how to deal with this tactic.

 

[Mew2King]

hey massive money match my jiggs with your captain falcon

 

[ph00tbag]

Magus' frame data shows that you just have to know what the patterns look like and you can punish Puff for ledgecamping.

So can we drop this? Please?

Oh I get it. M2K just wants to make more money.

 

[Pengie]

hey massive money match my jiggs with your captain falcon

ITT: Mew2King challenges people he outclasses to money matches with characters they don't use.

 

[_Rocky_]

I haven't tried any of these, but they seem like solid ideas to me.

Spoiler

"impossible to grab the edge because of ledgehop invincible f-air"

If your character has a difficult time doing it or you don't want to risk it, do you really even need to grab the edge if you have a decent ranged low hitting attack? It always seemed to me like Jiggs poofs up above edge height a bit from her DJ unless you interrupt it and grab the edge using sing everytime. I don't have experience against it myself and this could be a dumb question, but have you tried staying out of range of ledgehop invincible f-air anytime immediately following an edge grab, moving in a bit when they drop back from the edge, and then if they dropped low enough maybe look to d-tilt or something them out of the jump?

Kinda like that I guess. Stay out of range, then once you see them drop far enough below/away from the edge go in and maybe attack like those gifs, or sometimes just go in and put up your shield to see if they jump early and do something expecting you to attack their regrab that you can punish and if not then just roll back to safety.



"ledgehop on/off stage f-air camping only"


Ok then.

Jiggs is vulnerable for at least 12 frames before the f-air animation can end and is able to grab the edge. About 9-10 of those frames are while she's still above stage height. If you're using an attack that can hit below the stage a little then you may be able to hit for all 12.

In this example with CF you'd jump right when Jiggs grabs on. You have time to react to them committing to going far on stage with the f-air and then you come down with a b-air, and if you see they didn't then you DJ back to safety.

I cannot fathom how thankful i am to this guy. =)

 

[Niko45]

ITT: Mew2King challenges people he outclasses to money matches with characters they don't use.

Rofl. Best Thread?

 

[Strong Badam]

best post.

 

[Massive]

hey massive money match my jiggs with your captain falcon can I have some money?

No. Get a job.

Why don't we complain about marth too?

You know he can infintely drop and regrab the ledge without leaving invincibility frames? Nobody will ever try to edgehog him because he can jump, fair, and regrab the ledge safely forever.
His disjointed hitboxes will always protect him, this has to be an unbeatable tactic.

LETS BAN IT.


<3 _Rocky_

 

[_Rocky_]

No. Get a job.

Why don't we complain about marth too?

You know he can infintely drop and regrab the ledge without leaving invincibility frames? Nobody will ever try to edgehog him because he can jump, fair, and regrab the ledge safely forever.
His disjointed hitboxes will always protect him, this has to be an unbeatable tactic.

LETS BAN IT.

Ganon
Mewtwo
Bowser
Fox(& lots more)

._.

 

[AXE 09]

I'd like to see what wavedash -> low angled ftilt does once Jiggs leaves the edge.

This right here. If you know she's going to ledgehop Fair and retreat, just block the Fair, waveshield forward, and low Ftilt (with characters that have a good ftilt, like Falco/Ganon etc. Marth can Dtilt/jab/Fsmash). Or, with nearly every character, you can approach the ledge backwards with wavedashes. When she attacks the back of your shield with Fair, just waveshield onto the edge and react to whatever she does. You can FF -> double jump -> Bair with most characters, or if you wanna be more safe, just stand up from the ledge and go for a normal edgeguard.

I definitely do not see this tactic as anything broken. ESPECIALLY against Pikachu cuz it's so easy to steal the ledge from people with him, plus even if you're not confident with it, you still have thunderjolts. But even with almost all of the other characters, I can see ways around it.

Feel free to try to prove me wrong at Genesis.

 

[Mahone]

I'll put money on DrPP vs your puff M2K, i'll side bet you $50 bucks

And on top of that, i'll convince him to give you the lead in the beginning since you claim that's why you don't do it....

Also, hax, you'll accept this bet too, right?

 

[VGmasta]

I haven't tried any of these, but they seem like solid ideas to me.

Spoiler

"impossible to grab the edge because of ledgehop invincible f-air"

If your character has a difficult time doing it or you don't want to risk it, do you really even need to grab the edge if you have a decent ranged low hitting attack? It always seemed to me like Jiggs poofs up above edge height a bit from her DJ unless you interrupt it and grab the edge using sing everytime. I don't have experience against it myself and this could be a dumb question, but have you tried staying out of range of ledgehop invincible f-air anytime immediately following an edge grab, moving in a bit when they drop back from the edge, and then if they dropped low enough maybe look to d-tilt or something them out of the jump?

Kinda like that I guess. Stay out of range, then once you see them drop far enough below/away from the edge go in and maybe attack like those gifs, or sometimes just go in and put up your shield to see if they jump early and do something expecting you to attack their regrab that you can punish and if not then just roll back to safety.



"ledgehop on/off stage f-air camping only"


Ok then.

Jiggs is vulnerable for at least 12 frames before the f-air animation can end and is able to grab the edge. About 9-10 of those frames are while she's still above stage height. If you're using an attack that can hit below the stage a little then you may be able to hit for all 12.

In this example with CF you'd jump right when Jiggs grabs on. You have time to react to them committing to going far on stage with the f-air and then you come down with a b-air, and if you see they didn't then you DJ back to safety.

These look like pretty good options for Falcon vs ledgecamping Puff.