JOE!
Smash Hero
Jab leads to juggles and chases easier in exchange for less power and horizontal reach
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23OV7vVjbsYou have vids?
Wow excellent play man. You made Fox your ***** ON DREAMLAND of all places.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23OV7vVjbs
This is one I played a while ago. I don't get pressured that much, so it may not be what you're looking for, but it should give you an idea of how you should be spacing him. Let me know if you still have questions
Love that Zard man, I'm gonna be on the lookout for your vidshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m23OV7vVjbs
This is one I played a while ago. I don't get pressured that much, so it may not be what you're looking for, but it should give you an idea of how you should be spacing him. Let me know if you still have questions
I personally think it's slightly in Mario's advantage. A couple things that this Mario didn't do that would improve the match up in his favor:Here's the vid, again, not super good for either, we went really even. He got big combos but I could space him out and kill the pills with jab or Nair. So while his combo game is better, his projectiles can be nullified pretty substantially.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvPLYXtg9Jw
I'd maybe agree with 60:40 but I'm leaning towards maybe 50:50, but that's just me
I personally think it's slightly in Mario's advantage. A couple things that this Mario didn't do that would improve the match up in his favor:
- shield pressure with down air -> grab/jab/dsmash mix ups
- jump away then B reverse his pills/fireballs (which prevents you from nairing in time reliably because the jump away means you'd whiff nair if he doesn't b reverse, and if you wait until he b reverses fireball, then you don't have time to RAR nair).
I think you're right that Zard can deal with Mario's fireballs pretty well by going for nair when he jumps, but I think jab is pretty situational. Depending on the spacing, you sometimes have to hit the fireball before Mario is in range, and the clanking of the projectile makes you vulnerable if you don't simultaneously hit him. Really, the main thing that makes this match up hard imo is Mario's down air being safe on shield. When Zard is on a platform and Mario is grounded below, nair is very unsafe because of the possibility of shield -> jump out of shield, but Mario doesn't fear Zard's shield at all.
At least that's my understanding of the match up.
As for Fox, I think that Fox is fast enough to punish Zard for pretty much any time he jumps when they are in neutral (since Zard then must land and have endlag). A Fox who is familiar with the match up can be very difficult to deal with. Small stages can help, since you can make it so that he can only retreat from the back swing of nair by going off stage. Also Fox kills Zard pretty early, and if he follows your DI on up throw well (which he can do on reaction), your smash DI will often be futile because you're so fat. I've died as early as 75% (damage before the throw) as Zard to up throw -> up air on a number of stages.
That said, Fox gets gimped and combo'd so hard that even with Fox's insane advantage in neutral, it often feels pretty even. I think in the long run this will become a pretty bad match up, but only time will tell.
Ah, I think you misunderstood me.About the Mario MU:
And about the B reversing, if he jumps back and I whiff the Nair, it still swings back around and would cover the area right below his feet. I would also eat the pill with Nair, thus still keeping me in an advantageous position. The only time it wouldn't work was if I mistimed the Nair and went to early or too late so that he could shield the back swing, WD OOS punish.
...
If Fox is hitting you because you're jumping your doing something wrong. If you RAR Nair correctly, it should keep him in enough shield stun for you to land.
Ah, I think you misunderstood me.
The Mario b reversing: you end up in a dilemma where if you nair and he doesn't b reverse, you whiff and he comes in when you land to put on pressure. But if you don't nair then when he b reverses the fireball it's hard to react to. Admittedly this might be a time for a jab attempt, I may be under-using jab to protect me from fireballs.
As for the shield pressure from Mario, I'm not so sure. Admittedly I don't know the frames on up B for Zard and I definitely have to get better at thinking to do that more, but I will say that it's pretty tight on windows and requires some prediction of what Mario will do. If you up B right as he jabs or d-smashes, you might get hit before your hitbox is out. Jab1 and jab2 come out frame 2 and Dsmash comes out frame 3. I might be wrong, but I think you could only up B to avoid the grab which comes out frame 7. That makes Mario's mix up pretty strong.
As for the Fox thing, He can run away from you when you jump. He doesn't have to shield, When you land, Zard is vulnerable, and because Fox isn't afraid of your shield options he can just go in (Fox has probs the best shield pressure in the game).
To clarify, I do well in tournaments and have beaten Foxes to win grand Finals before... and yeah, Zard can destroy fox combo/gimp-wise. But I do feel like it's pretty hard to approach Fox without opening your self up against him. Aside from Frootloop though, Fox hasn't given me too much trouble. I have a lot more trouble with Falco (although again, only Frootloop actually beats me with Falco consistently).
Edit: Frootloop is a much better player than me, but I still do think that from what I've seen of the best Fox in WI (frootloop), it seems like a hard match up for Zard.
Yeah, you are probably right. I don't think I reverse nair every time Mario jumps, and I probably should... I wonder, should I full hop reverse nair if he full hops? I will experiment. I think the Mario I play starts a lot of fireballs at a distance and from a full hop or short hop from a platform.The B reverse thing makes sense, but I still maintain that if he in in the air jumping away from you, even if you whiff he can't punish it. The way I'm imagining it is that you're both on FD in even level with each other. If he dashes away, you dash forward. You see him jump, you ready a RAR Nair so you jump reversed. He B reverses, he'll most likely get hit, either by the startup, or by the backswing as he lands. If he doesn't B reverse, then his momentum is away from you which means he can't punish you, and most likely you eat the fireball. Nobody lost, but you probably have better stage control at this point.
So this paragraph just leveled up my Zard... I had no idea O_o That makes Zard's up B an INSANE out of shield option... I can't wait to try this against my friend who plays Lucario (who has pretty good shield pressure as well).As for the shield pressure...trust me, Up b is as fast as Bowser's, It's 4 frames on startup. Also he's the killer, IT'S INVINCIBLE THE FIRST 3 FRAMES (something that I just learned since I was wondering why I was getting away with it because I think your right ), so you're invincible until your first hitbox get's thrown out. You can get out of almost any shield pressure with it, I really recommend experimenting with it. I mean, you can't just do it to any move, but anything that has even a few frames of lag is susceptible. Fox should be scared of your OOS options, so should a lot of characters.
Agreed. One thing I need to figure out is, now that people are punishing the middle of my nair, what should Zard do if the person doesn't jump? He has great anti airs... should I just pressure them until they are by the ledge and they have to do something? That's generally my game plan, but I have to threaten with something. Spaced bairs seem to work on Zelda cause she's so slow, but I'm not sure aside from that. For now I'm going for grabs when people get too close... I don't know. Maybe I'm just over thinking and playing worse as a result (this past week I haven't been doing as well, specifically against that Mario player I've been referring to, Hunger).I'm liking this discussion though, you've made me think about quite a bit in this :D
Yeah, you are probably right. I don't think I reverse nair every time Mario jumps, and I probably should... I wonder, should I full hop reverse nair if he full hops? I will experiment. I think the Mario I play starts a lot of fireballs at a distance and from a full hop or short hop from a platform.
So this paragraph just leveled up my Zard... I had no idea O_o That makes Zard's up B an INSANE out of shield option... I can't wait to try this against my friend who plays Lucario (who has pretty good shield pressure as well).
Thanks much for the info :D
Agreed. One thing I need to figure out is, now that people are punishing the middle of my nair, what should Zard do if the person doesn't jump? He has great anti airs... should I just pressure them until they are by the ledge and they have to do something? That's generally my game plan, but I have to threaten with something. Spaced bairs seem to work on Zelda cause she's so slow, but I'm not sure aside from that. For now I'm going for grabs when people get too close... I don't know. Maybe I'm just over thinking and playing worse as a result (this past week I haven't been doing as well, specifically against that Mario player I've been referring to, Hunger).
Tell someone to try to stuff Nair when the tail is facing the wrong way and see if you can get away with nairing when they are grounded. It could be that there's just something I'm doing wrong and/or that I've just been having an off week... As far as I can tell it's their increased match up experience against Zard that's the major factor. That said now that I know to punish Mario's jumps on reaction those matches might start to go better.
Haha I multiple times to get multiple copies of your post and deleted everything but the part I wanted to quote for each oneAlso I'm bad a quoting people in Smashboards so sorry the formatting is weird for my responses
11 frames isn't enough time to WD OOS and punish you, and that's with perfect timing. When you take into the account the jump animation, the air dodge animation, and most importantly the slide animation, I think we computed it earlier to be about 20 frames (somewhere in that ball park). The other fact is that if they are going to make up the space between that beginning and the end of Nair, you have to be moving towards them (since the startup can't hit them), or they have to be moving towards you (again, because the startup can't hit them for this illustration). They either have to be moving towards you (and still somehow miraculously not get hit by the startup), or they have to have a super fast, super long WD. The most times you'll bet punished for Nairing is probably by a character like Puff. If you miss with the startup, the top of your back is very exposed, and she will be able to very easily hit out with Fair/Bair etc.Haha I multiple times to get multiple copies of your post and deleted everything but the part I wanted to quote for each one
Also, I'm talking about when you go for a reverse nair, the tail is behind you twice, right? Well frames 11ish-22ish the tail is not protecting you're backside because it is either too high or on the part of the swing where the tail is in front of Zard. So during that period, if the person can get to you and put out a hitbox, they will beat you every time (remember you only have a hitbox on your tail). And if they are on the ground, they can get to you in time. You are also vulnerable from above from frames 18 on. As a result I am starting to think that nair is punishable on reaction for a grounded opponent.
I don't full RAR always, but actually I was trying to say that doing full drift RAR has been helping a little since it can help force the person to retreat further. Most of my nairs are not true RAR's since I'm not actually maintaining forward momentum. My main problem with nair lately is stated above ^
Ah... not quite what I mean. They don't have to wavedash out of shield because they didn't shield. After all I'm going for hitting with the back swing, so they have plenty of time to see said backswing coming right? If I had hit their shield, then they could punish by jumping out of shield, but that's not what I'm talking about. The fact that they are grounded isn't relevant because of shield, it's relevant because it means their burst range is still wide, and as such if I try to hit them with the back swing they can simply rush me (after the first swing passes first) and hit me when the tail is on the wrong side (frames 11ish through 22ish... or 11 - 30 if they approach slightly higher to avoid the back swing). Does that make sense? So they dash away from the first swing and dash back in before the second swing comes back around (and or simply attack the part of Zard that the back swing doesn't cover).11 frames isn't enough time to WD OOS and punish you, and that's with perfect timing. When you take into the account the jump animation, the air dodge animation, and most importantly the slide animation, I think we computed it earlier to be about 20 frames (somewhere in that ball park). The other fact is that if they are going to make up the space between that beginning and the end of Nair, you have to be moving towards them (since the startup can't hit them), or they have to be moving towards you (again, because the startup can't hit them for this illustration). They either have to be moving towards you (and still somehow miraculously not get hit by the startup), or they have to have a super fast, super long WD. The most times you'll bet punished for Nairing is probably by a character like Puff. If you miss with the startup, the top of your back is very exposed, and she will be able to very easily hit out with Fair/Bair etc.
I think I know what you're doing wrong, but i'd need to see some of your play. If you have some matches I'd like to see them if possible, in the meantime I'll look around for good and bad examples of Nair spacing from my own matches and hopefully get back to you later about it.
Ah... not quite what I mean. They don't have to wavedash out of shield because they didn't shield. After all I'm going for hitting with the back swing, so they have plenty of time to see said backswing coming right? If I had hit their shield, then they could punish by jumping out of shield, but that's not what I'm talking about. The fact that they are grounded isn't relevant because of shield, it's relevant because it means their burst range is still wide, and as such if I try to hit them with the back swing they can simply rush me (after the first swing passes first) and hit me when the tail is on the wrong side (frames 11ish through 22ish... or 11 - 30 if they approach slightly higher to avoid the back swing). Does that make sense? So they dash away from the first swing and dash back in before the second swing comes back around (and or simply attack the part of Zard that the back swing doesn't cover).
Edit: To clarify, only the tail has hitboxes during nair, so the idea is not for them to nullify the hitboxes (using shield), but rather to simply hit me where I have no hitboxes.
Edit2: Also this is mainly a problem when going for the back swing of nair. I think using rising reverse nair on a grounded opponent can be useful simply because it's fast, and thus the opponent is likely not to react to it in time. If they shield it, you're screwed, but that doesn't make it useless... honestly hitting a shield with any or Zards aerials puts you at a frame disadvantage (the same is true with most characters), so you have to take some risks when you approach and at least it's fast enough where they can't punish it on reaction (they have to predict you to shield in time, since even taking into account jump squat it comes out faster than reaction time).
And to back up the no frame advantage: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/ use this and look at JOE's frame data on Zard. L canceled end lag for all aerials is longer than the max shield stun Zard can give with said aerials... The only safety you can get is by being far away and hitting right before you land and L cancel. Even then, some characters might be able to punish by jumping out of shield (especially if they have fast, long range nairs/fairs, or if they intentionally shield facing away, bairs).
The window ranges from tight to impossible to punish for characters who have neither fast moves with decent range, nor fast dash/air speed. For characters who have one of the those two attributes, however (which is most characters), I think the window is tight, but reasonable to punish consistently. This is of course assuming that they are grounded and not in shield at the time the tail of your nair is straight up.First of all, now that I get what you're saying, I agree about the RAR being vulnerable if they can dash away. The window is tight for them to punish it, but it's certainly within reason. Characters like Fox and Falcon can dash in a hit you, but I will say again, the window can be tight.
After a certain height distance, it's useless to chase Bowser because of his Down-B. I generally just stay on the ground in that situation because people don't tend to Down-B unless you try to chase them vertically. One thing you can try is to bait out the Down-B by charging Fly but then cancel your vertical momentum by jumping as soon as possible so that you stay fairly close to the ground. Most players won't expect you to stay so low after a full charge, and you can even angle your trajectory so that you create enough space to avoid the Down-B but not so much space that you're too far away to punish. Even if you just stay on the ground and let him fall back down normally, you can still keep juggling with Jab/Utilt/Usmash/Up-B/etc.Anyone got any advice for the Charizard - Bowser matchup? I keep getting wrecked by armour and the range of his forward air. Also his down B makes it hard to follow up for kills after landing a launching move. Even if I can bait out the down B I have trouble punishing it.
I'll add that shield grabbing counters pretty much every approach Bowser has. Since he has no real approach when you are on the ground (since you will just shield grab him lol), be choosy about approaching him. His moveset is good at countering your approach, but you get to pick and choose when you do said approach since he can't really put on any pressure.Anyone got any advice for the Charizard - Bowser matchup? I keep getting wrecked by armour and the range of his forward air. Also his down B makes it hard to follow up for kills after landing a launching move. Even if I can bait out the down B I have trouble punishing it.
If you hit Lucas' PK Freeze on the initial upswing of a reversed Nair, you can often catch his approach with the delayed swing. PK Freeze is not very spammable, so you usually will be able to take care of it with reversed Nair. Fly is great for approaching while avoiding projectiles altogether, but it has its drawbacks too.Recently gotten my hands on PM at long last (waiting for the stuff I needed to play because I'm from the UK and PAL PM doesn't exist yet)
I always like playing big heavyweight bruiser characters in other fighters and Charizard so far has been one I an loving. Much like other heavyweights in other fighting games like Gief I've noticed Charizard really needs to work his way around projectiles due to his size. Mario, Link and Lucas in particular have kinda stood out as a bit frustrating to get in on sometimes or at least feel like you have to move during the neutral game. I've already read the above discussion of Mario (which was very informative!) But what of combating Lucas and Link? Any advice would be appreciated.
It does take some careful spacing though, if you do it too early you'll get stopped by the projectile and not have enough time to re jabJab can eat Fireballs and PK Freezes and still go through to hit Mario/Lucas
In the first post, any character with a red name is a particularly bad MU for Charizard. They're at the very top so they're easily accessed by Zards having trouble.Thanks for the advice. Are there any characters in particular that seem to stand out as particularly bad for Zard? Yeah the projectile characters are annoying but they don't seem unstoppable by any means. How do you feel Zard does against the space animals?
Played friendlies with a Bowser main for like an hour straight this weekend and it went far less badly. I still like super jumping when they are above me but now I can usually dodge the down B and punish it if they missed the ledge. F throw then jumping offstage for the down air was surprisingly effective. Starting to figure out the correct spacing for bair/nair against Bowser's fair.After a certain height distance, it's useless to chase Bowser because of his Down-B. I generally just stay on the ground in that situation because people don't tend to Down-B unless you try to chase them vertically. One thing you can try is to bait out the Down-B by charging Fly but then cancel your vertical momentum by jumping as soon as possible so that you stay fairly close to the ground. Most players won't expect you to stay so low after a full charge, and you can even angle your trajectory so that you create enough space to avoid the Down-B but not so much space that you're too far away to punish. Even if you just stay on the ground and let him fall back down normally, you can still keep juggling with Jab/Utilt/Usmash/Up-B/etc.
Bowser's recovery is pretty bad so I try to get lateral KOs rather than KOs off the top. Ftilt and Side-B beat Bowser's Up-B so get him horizontally off the stage and then just stand at the edge and time those moves correctly (or jump off and intercept him with Side-B). There's not much Bowser can do in that situation. As far as the Armor issue is concerned, maybe try playing more patiently. Charizard has a few moves that outreach anything Bowser has, so make him come to you and then bait out his laggy moves. IIRC none of his Armor moves have very good range, so use your disjointed hitboxes effectively and you should stay out of harm's way. If you get him in the air at low percentages, you can combo him really well since he's so big and won't get launched very far away from you. IMO, Bowser is in many ways a wingless (and worse) Charizard, so think about what sorts of opponent tactics bother you the most and then use those yourself.
Bowser's Fair is a good move and you're going to have to respect that. I don't have any great tip for it other than recognize it's there and try to not put yourself in situations where he can get you with it. Don't get greedy and rush him only to get hit in the face with Fair. I feel that Charizard has enough advantage in the neutral game against Bowser that you don't have to go for broke when you're comboing/edgeguarding Bowser. It's ok to drop the combo or opt for a low-risk edgeguard and live to fight another day. If Bowser is approaching with it, Shieldgrab or space moves properly (RAR Nair). You'll figure out what safe spacing is against Fair with experience.
Good luck and I hope this helps.
P.S. Bowser's get-up attack from the ledge is stupid, so don't get caught by it. The Bowser I play against a lot uses it all the time.
Well yeah if you go FD against falco you're being silly. However, you can still jump over to him, and if he pressure's your shield, up B OOS is invincible the first 3 frames and comes out frame 4, so it's a great anti shine option. Plus, any hit that knocks him down should mean a dead falco, especially if you get him offstage. Just flamethrower the ledge and watch the sadness as he desperately tries to SDI through the flames but just ends up dying. Fox can be a little worse because of his speed, but both MU's are pretty even considering how much they can win the neutral, but then just fall over dead if they get hit.Falco should switch spots with fox.
Lasers shut down zard so hard if you don't have platforms. Never ever go to FD against a Falco.
After getting massively laser camped by Kels' Fox at Exposure 10, IMHO this match-up isn't even considering that Charizard is at such a disadvantage in the neutral game.Well yeah if you go FD against falco you're being silly. However, you can still jump over to him, and if he pressure's your shield, up B OOS is invincible the first 3 frames and comes out frame 4, so it's a great anti shine option. Plus, any hit that knocks him down should mean a dead falco, especially if you get him offstage. Just flamethrower the ledge and watch the sadness as he desperately tries to SDI through the flames but just ends up dying. Fox can be a little worse because of his speed, but both MU's are pretty even considering how much they can win the neutral, but then just fall over dead if they get hit.
In all honestly, the lasers weren't worst part, Fox's speed is what makes the neutral game tough. It didn't really matter how much percent he tacked on with lasers cause you could pull a lot more damage off of a single combo. Zard wins pretty heavily in the combo game for the most part, and Zared winning the neutral game is pretty much just how hard you can bait the fox into doing an unsafe approach.After getting massively laser camped by Kels' Fox at Exposure 10, IMHO this match-up isn't even considering that Charizard is at such a disadvantage in the neutral game.
Thanks; if it weren't for the yolo up+B and DAir kills in game 3, I definitely would've lost.In all honestly, the lasers weren't worst part, Fox's speed is what makes the neutral game tough. It didn't really matter how much percent he tacked on with lasers cause you could pull a lot more damage off of a single combo. Zard wins pretty heavily in the combo game for the most part, and Zared winning the neutral game is pretty much just how hard you can bait the fox into doing an unsafe approach.
What I'm trying to say is that I don't think that his lasers gives him much advantage in the neutral game, it boxes him into a corner where you can pressure him specially until he is forced to approach you, and if he misses, you get a lot of damage on him. If he hits your shield, then you still have Up B OOS to deal with shine pressure. Being forced to give up stage positioning just to keep ahead in percent doesn't seem like much of an advantage in my eyes, specially with Zard's really fast jab and other useful tools to outspace and out prioritize fox. If his lasers gave him an approach I would agree with you, but not when they do no knock back.
Personally I haven't run into an especially campy fox, I usually struggle more with highly aggressive ones, but that might just be my play style.
Btw, good on beating Kels, that's not an easy thing to do :D
You want to either have your nair swish through the spot in which they will tether or be holding the ledge so that they are forced to get the jump onto stage which can be punished by ledgehop fair. If you are super godlly you can ledge cancel the nair and then drop onto the ledge so that you can force the jump onto stage even if you miss. That's pretty hard to do though.Any advice for edgdguarding ZSS? And whats the best approach for punishing tether recoveries in general?
Thank you! Anyone know how many frames of lag that forced ledge jump has for tether recoveries? As in how many vulnerable frames are during that ledge jump?You want to either have your nair swish through the spot in which they will tether or be holding the ledge so that they are forced to get the jump onto stage which can be punished by ledgehop fair. If you are super godlly you can ledge cancel the nair and then drop onto the ledge so that you can force the jump onto stage even if you miss. That's pretty hard to do though.
1. Grab the ledgeAny advice for edgdguarding ZSS? And whats the best approach for punishing tether recoveries in general?