Charizard Community Project #1: Rate our Moveset

[ZTD | TECHnology]

The point of this thread is to gain a community perspective of which of our moves are great, good, situational and bad. Perhaps we can find some new uses for moves that we never considered. Feel free to discuss one, two, five or all of them. Discussion will be rather unstructured and free flowing for now. However, I may direct traffic to a specific move or moves if discussion is becoming too lopsided on a particular topic (inb4FlareBlitz). Please be prepared to back your claims with a detailed, informative explanation. Worthwhile posts will be added to this OP and cataloged appropriately.

THE MOVESET RATING LEGEND:


- A certified fantastic move. Covers a wide variety of situations and/or covers a few important situations but covers them extremely well. An absolute staple and essential to our gameplay.

- A great move overall. Covers a few situations pretty well and is relied on frequently. May cover one or two select but important scenarios very well.

- A solid move. More of a niche move but covers this niche quite well. May also be used as a mixup occasionally.

- Not too hot but not totally useless. Might be used for VERY specific situations or a mixup that we might want to use every once in a while. Certainly not a move to be used often.

- Crap tier. An option select we'll probably never use unless we want to be Trollizards. This rating specifically means "There is literally always a better option than this".


CRITERIA TO CONSIDER WHEN RATING:

- How often we use this move.
- How many roles this moves fulfills.
- How safe/reliable this move is.


EXAMPLES OF ROLES:

- Kill Move
- Anti-Air
- Spacing Tool
- Recovery
- GTFO Move
- Combo Starter
- Combo Finisher
- Close Combat Tool
- Reliable Punisher


OUR MOVESET:

Jab
Dash Attack
Forward-Tilt
Up-Tilt
Down-Tilt
Neutral-Aerial
Forward-Aerial
Back-Aerial
Up-Aerial
Down-Aerial
Forward-Smash
Up-Smash
Down-Smash
Neutral-Special (Flamethrower)
Side-Special (Flare Blitz)
Up-Special (Fly)
Down-Special (Rock Smash)
Forward-Throw
Back-Throw
Up-Throw
Down-Throw

 

[-LzR-]

Let's talk about Nair. I give the move a perfect 5 as it's our best move. It's our best move for spacing as it covers Charizard everywhere and it autocancels on shorthop. If done backwards it can also give a better frame advantage. Can combo into fair, jab and grab well, all of which are very important for Charizard.
Unless you need immediate horizontal coverage this move is generally better than fair.
The move is not very useful for killing so feel free to use it as much you want, you shouldn't attempt to kill with it anyways. Instead combo into a fair for a kill. It can also be used to setup a Flare Blitz as it doesn't have lag.

At least my neutral game is based around spacing nairs. Please tell me more about the move. I love it and I want to get better at it. Without this move Charizard would be almost useless.

 

[Masonomace]

@ ZTD | TECHnology It's unexplored because there's less opportunities to use the miscellaneous moves, but I feel the Floor Attacks Front Back & Trip should be added to Zard's move-set. Edge Attack too.

Getting started on Nair thanks to @ -LzR-
Nair overall has different roles & with it's criteria, I'd give it . As already stated, it AC's upon landing in a SH input regardless of DI'ing left or right, & it's ability to scoop up their landing options especially AD'ing near the ground worthy of combo starting from that situation. The only aspect that held me back from giving it a perfect 5 is it's hit-box area. It's a great move yet it's hit-box range from behind isn't Bair level, nor is it's upper area & downward hit-box that of Uair or Dair. To me Nair is a great move overall.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I don't have a problem adding those to the OP.

I'll do it later when I post my own opinions of each (yes, all of them) move. That might help speed up the discussion as well. Thank you guys for your valid points. I'll likely be back on tonight after work to follow up.

 

[Masonomace]

Oh, and @ ZTD | TECHnology , one last thing about Zard's move-set is adding his Pummel in there as well. It's another small move, but a Pummel per grab goes a long way bit-by-bit in a match. Low % we should Pummel that much, but the % range persay 30% - 60%, a couple of Pummels goes an even longer way. Have a decent day at work.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

As it is late and I had a long day at work, I am waiting until tomorrow to post my opinion. However:

Guess who has two thumbs and just figured out how to cancel the recoil animation of Flare Blitz? *points at himself* This guy! More to come to tomorrow!

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As it is late and I had a long day at work, I am waiting until tomorrow to post my opinion. However:

Guess who has two thumbs and just figured out how to cancel the recoil animation of Flare Blitz? *points at himself* This guy! More to come to tomorrow!

*waits patiently*

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

*waits patiently*

I see your patience and I raise you a (crappy digital camera made) video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktubM9EBTmc&feature=youtu.be

 

[Whookie]

It says "This video is private."

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Sorry about that, should be public now.

 

[Whookie]

Interesting discovery. I also sort of found something like it accidentally but it's even more limited than what you showed us but I guess it follows the same principle.

If you flare blitz and land exactly near the edge of the stage, the recoil animation gets cancelled and you can jump immediately.I think it's the game being unable to decide whether you're on the platform or not so it just cancels your recovery animation. I've been able to replicate it but the positioning is so strict that I can't find a real use for it. Like really strict that the guy you're hitting and where you're standing has to be exact.

It's even more limited because there are no landmarks to figure out where to do it like your video. Yours just requires standing at the edge and only Ike's position is precise.

Anyway, it requires the enemy's starting position in practice mode (for glory stages) and you about 4/5ths of a step away from the rightmost edge. Not really useful I know but I think it explains how it works.

Edit: And by cancelling the recovery animation, I don't mean free falling off the platform since you're close to the edge and then just jumping back. I mean hitting the platform and then being able to do a move right after.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I totally understand what you mean. It's all super situational and I'm not expecting this to be game changing (unless further developments are found) but definitely helps to put all of that information out there. Sounds like what you discovered is a variation of what I discovered. I appreciate you sharing it with us.

 

[Masonomace]

Using a platform tumbling tactic to cancel the recoil. . @ ZTD | TECHnology you sly dog. I see this mostly as a mix-up usage for close-quarters with platforms provided, & I'm guessing Flare Blitz not only does a brick ton of % damage, but also does good shield damage as well. Basically shield breaks can happen with doing this. Of course there's always them spot-dodging this so the usage of this tactic is limited as you & whookie have said.
Verdict: Flare Blitz gets from me.

EDIT: Another off-topic use for FB can be to travel stage distance & cancel the ending with the walk-off from a ledge basically alike the Falcon Kick / Wizard Foot tactic used in Brawl / Sm4sh as well.

 

[Brash Darrington]

Let's talk about grabs. Personally, I've found dthrow after to be the most effective for 1 on 1 situations, good launch/damage but the time it takes to execute makes it practically worthless in a 4 man match. So my 2 cents on dthrow, . I feel like char has an exceptional grab range and is one of the peak reasons to play him. Grab punishing constant rollers is just so satisfying. haven't had enough play time yet to rate the other throws, but this is a start.

 

[Masonomace]

Let's talk about grabs. Personally, I've found dthrow after to be the most effective for 1 on 1 situations, good launch/damage but the time it takes to execute makes it practically worthless in a 4 man match. So my 2 cents on dthrow, . I feel like char has an exceptional grab range and is one of the peak reasons to play him. Grab punishing constant rollers is just so satisfying. haven't had enough play time yet to rate the other throws, but this is a start.

I'm a day late but welcome to smashboards.

About Zard's throws:
Fthrow & Bthrow are Zard's controlling throws. They decide the ending outcome of your attempt to gain stage control & throw your opponent in an unfavorable situation. Their also Zard's strongest % damage throws so they'll be used often too. Their usage & importance mean a lot to Zard as his edge-guarding is fairly good & the setup you create with these throws are worth using them all-around for several means of importance.
As far as Throws are concerned, Fthrow & Bthrow both get from me.

Uthrow is quirky for me because it's Zard's 2nd best throw in terms of % damage dealing & setting up for any follow-up. There doesn't seem to be frame advantage, but considering the trajectory & launch pattern it has, the move helps Zard watch their next move whether they jump away or disengage anyhow. Zard could rush-down from this throw or punish their landing with a precise Flare Blitz or another grounded attack but so far I'm not too impressed with the throw. The move overall gives me mixed feelings & I consider it a decent throw to use for when your F & B throws are staled dealing less than a fresh Uthrow.

So for Uthrow I give it for decency<3

Dthrow is hilarious in Sm4sh. It's % damage dealt is 1%. . . .. . . . . It deals 6% being the 3rd best damage racking throw, but the main use for this throw remains the same as Zard's Dthrow in Brawl was, a KO throw. Reliably, I've seen this throw KO light-weight characters around 120-ish% & really that's a godsend of a throw to have in Zard's move-set. Zard doesn't need a KO throw, but it's always a reliable thought to know when having a KO throw. The placement of the throw on stage obviously makes it better when used at higher altitude such as platforms & such, so regarding Dthrow I give the move:

for being our reliable KO throw

Now as for Zard's grab itself, I'm sort of disappointed with it because it's not Brawl Zard's level, but it's something above decent level. I don't know the hit-bubbles for Zard's standing grab, dash grab, or pivot grab. . .but for a throw like Zard's without knowing it fully, I give Zard's grab:

for being above decent

 

[-LzR-]

What are you talking about? Dthrow deals 6%.

 

[Masonomace]

What are you talking about? Dthrow deals 6%.

If that's the case then I'd like a quick explanation of why it only does 1% in this video:
http://youtu.be/0lA9ZhCqTsU?t=3m45s

 

[-LzR-]

If that's the case then I'd like a quick explanation of why it only does 1% in this video:
http://youtu.be/0lA9ZhCqTsU?t=3m45s

Dthrow deals 1% 6 times during the animation. My guess is that the training mode counter only displays the last hit or the combo resets on every hit for some reason because the training mode stats have never been reliable.

 

[Masonomace]

Dthrow deals 1% 6 times during the animation. My guess is that the training mode counter only displays the last hit or the combo resets on every hit for some reason because the training mode stats have never been reliable.

Thanks to the max, what are your ratings on Zard's throws & grab?

 

[-LzR-]

Thanks to the max, what are your ratings on Zard's throws & grab?

I have nothing to add to what you already said.

 

[Remzi]

Uthrow comboes into fair on certain characters at VERY low percent. For some characters its vector dependent as well.

Also, the flare blitz lag cancel is very cool. Its usefulness will depend on how strict the spacing is for it to work. Like, does Ike have to be in that EXACT spot for it to work? If not, I think ledge hop flare blitz is gonna be a great option.

 

[Smog Frog]

fly gets a from me. its a gtfo move, recovery(not the greatest but thats why and not ) it's also a kill move, it comes out fairly quickly, and the only real flaws are the fact its not the greatest recovery and the fairly high end lag.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Uthrow comboes into fair on certain characters at VERY low percent. For some characters its vector dependent as well.

Also, the flare blitz lag cancel is very cool. Its usefulness will depend on how strict the spacing is for it to work. Like, does Ike have to be in that EXACT spot for it to work? If not, I think ledge hop flare blitz is gonna be a great option.

The spacing requirement appears to be strict but not exact. I'm still playing around with it. I happen to have an eye for this kind of thing so I find it easier since when I was a D3 main in Brawl, all I did was test EVERYTHING. I'm hoping to use this as a starting point and expand on this technique from there.

Also, I'll still be posting my moveset opinions soon. I got kinda sidtracked by this discovery.

 

[iVoltage]

Down smash gets a from me. It a good answer to people that roll behind you. Has a wide hitbox all around you when you use it. It can also hit people who are just about to grab the ledge for a surprising kill. It is by no means a spam-able move, sort of like rock smash. It comes out rather fast so it can be a good kill move after a blocked attack, your other smashes aren't nearly as fast so it has been an awesome option for me so far.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Down Aerial gets a from me.

It has more range then it appears to have and is quite easy to hit. The meteor is strong and Charizard can easily recover from most meteor attempts.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Will add more later but here are my thoughts. I know that ratings will seem more strict than some others here but I am also trying to be as realistic (and thinking of high/top level situations) as possible. I love a good discussion though and I would like to continue to foster a good discussion here <3

JAB:

Verdict:

Explanation: As far as Jabs go, I think we have one of the better ones in the game. It comes out reasonably fast, does respectable damage and can be canceled during Jab 2 to lead to more opportunities such as a Grab or something more substantial. It can follow up an AC'ed Nair, and it really goes a long way in keeping Charizard safe up close against characters who have gotten inside Charizard range and are trying to set things up. I also dig how Jab 3 pops them up in the air at an angle that allows for potential follow ups and reads. For example: Did you know at high percents, if Jab 2 connects, you can land a Fly if they don't DI properly? Try it. It's fun. Overall, Jab is a good move for us. It's like Brawl Ike's but a tad slower.

DASH ATTACK:

Verdict:

Explanation: I'm not a big fan of Dash Attack. Don't get me wrong, on paper, it's not a terrible move at all. My issue with it, is that there's usually better options. Dash Attack has significant ending lag and enough start up lag to where I feel like it's more of a mixup than a good approach option in general. I think it's one of the weakest moves in our arsenal.

F-TILT

Verdict:

Explanation: It's a spacing tool mostly; one of our many spacing tools. It has good range , its quick and it's relatively safe when properly spaced. It can also follow up a AC'ed Nair (not confirmed whether this is guaranteed). At certain percents it can also cause a hard knockdown, setting up for tech chases. Its not very versatile, but it's pretty handy at what it does.

UP-TILT

Verdict:

Explanation: Up-Tilt really just has two uses but it does these things fairly well. 1. It's a combo starter that chains into self at low percents. Aerials can be used to finish it off as well. And its also a solid anti-air option. It comes out pretty fast and it has low end lag to boot; similar to Mario's Up-Tilt. The move would receive a 4 if it had a better horizontal hitbox. Its horizontal hitbox is really small, making it a really poor out of shield option in most cases. Landing this could lead to profit but requires a little work.

DOWN-TILT

Verdict:

Explanation: Down-Tilt is another one of our spacing tools. This move differs from F-Tilt in that it causes hard knockdowns earlier. It has higher base knockback but won't be used as a kill move. This move being reasonably quick as well as having horizontal knockback can be a good way of getting opponents off the stage when Down-Smash feels too risky or slow.

F-SMASH:

Verdict:

Explanation: F-Smash is a rather scary move now that it's faster. It kills very early and is quite fast for a Smash with so much KO power. It has a good amount of a range and it a lot of shield push as well. As you can imagine, whiffing this move is bad as it has a lot of ending lag. It's not too versatile of a move but it does what it does very well: punish people in front you. Very very hard.

UP-SMASH:

Verdict:

Explanation: A respectable out of shield option as it comes out relatively fast and covers both a good horizontal and vertical distance. As we don't have many OoS options, this move is important. That's about the extent of its main functionality. If you're looking for an anti-air move, Up-Tilt is better in most situations. Up-Smash also doesn't kill nearly as early as some of our other moves. It has high end lag as well so use it with caution. Also be realllly careful about using this move with your back turned. If your opponent isn't right on top of you, you can end up hitting them with only the first hit of this move and whiffing the second...leaving you wide open.

DOWN-SMASH:

Verdict:

Explanation: I have mixed feelings about this move. On one hand, its front hitbox sends people at a pretty bad angle (for them, not us) which can get us ready for our off-stage game, where we shine. And having hitboxes on both sides gives us solid coverage against rolls. However, both its start up and end lag are pretty high; especially the end lag. The move itself has some good applications, but landing it isn't that easy. Which is why I can't give it anything higher than a 3/5.

NAIR:

Verdict:

Explanation: Easily our best move and most versatile attack. This move starts combos, finishes them, has amazing coverage with its hitbox, it helps gimp people, it frame traps, it causes tripping at low percents. its great for spacing, and our neutral game in general; there isn't much Nair doesn't do besides kill. You can finish Up-Tilt strings with this and still leave yourself in a position to follow up. You can SH'AC Nair into Jabs, Grabs, F-Tilt and even Fly..and probably more stuff. It gives great frame advantage when used from the front and even more if you can land it while facing away from your opponent. It's all around a godsend in our arsenal. Nair: Learn it. Love it.

FAIR:

Verdict:

Explanation: Fair is pretty good as a aerial spacing tool and thus serves an important role in our moveset. It's fast, has good range, has decent knockback (can net some kills off stage at least) and along with Nair is the only other aerial that can be Autocanceled (AC'ed). Nair covers more options, but this a great move when you need an immediate horizontal hitbox out. Also, this move can be used after an Up-Throw at super low percents. (guaranteed on some, DI/Vector dependent on others). Above all: Learn how to AC this move. It will help a lot in our neutral game; one of the areas we struggle with.

BAIR:

Verdict:

Explanation: Bair is a really scary move to go up against off stage; it has tremendous knockback and range. Bair is really only let down by its horrendous ending lag both in the air and when landing. Short hopping and/or fast falling this move isn't worth it if you aren't sure this isn't going to land: the land is ridiculous. Because its really just an offstage tool, that's why I give it a 3 instead of a 4. Its pretty good at what it does but you can't stretch this move too far.

UAIR:

Verdict:

Explanation: Uair is a pretty simple move with pretty simple applications. It's meant to hit people above you when you're in the air. You can finish Uair strings with it, but I find Nair to be better for that (especially when there are platforms!). But Uair has two things going for it: It's got a decent horizontal hitbox for an Uair and it hits REALLY hard for one too. This move can kill surprisingly early, which is why I'm giving it a 3 instead of a 2. It's uses are limited but man does this move hurt!

DAIR:

Verdict:

Explanation: As far as Dairs go, it's an above average meteor attack but an average attack overall. It comes decently fast, does decent damage, and it's sweetspot is somewhat liberal. It has enough end lag to where you can't really follow up on it making it a big commitment unfortunately. But as far as meteors, it certainly gets the job done.

FLAMETHROWER:

Verdict:

Explanation: Flamethrower is more or less a spacing tool. It racks up relatively safe damage when spaced and can rack up a decent amount of damage when used on reaction to stuff some aerial approaches. The new mechanic that makes Charizard push back after using Flamethrower aids its purpose as a spacing tool, but detracts away from its purpose as a damage builder. All around a solid move that can be used to give you some breathing room. What prevents me from giving this a 4 is its high ending lag and the fact that move mobile characters can bait and punish this move fairly easily. Its certainly a useful tool but be careful about using it.

FLARE BLITZ:

Verdict:

Explanation: I believe this to be our 2nd best move, right behind Nair. Flare Blitz gives Charizard some tools that he REALLY needed in his Brawl days. For starters, this is an amazing horizontal recovery. This is something that really adds to Charizard's longevity because Fly alone wasn't cutting it. Flare Blitz also gives Charizard a way of closing the gap and a way of punishing at a distance: something most heavyweights have technically lacked. The fact that this move has armor and can eat through projectiles, give Charizard a unique and cool way of punishing characters who are usually completely safe in these situations. And Flare Blitz is just an all around great punishing move with good but not amazing KO power. Good Charizards should always be looking for creative ways of landing this attack. Flare Blitz also allows Charizard the ability to run away and reset bad situations in the air (being juggled). Although, it's not as versatile as Nair, Flare Blitz excels in many situations despite its obvious drawbacks (which we are now finding ways to get past!). With that said: I rank Flare Blitz a 5: right behind Nair.

FLY:

Verdict:

Explanation: As a recovery tool, Fly is okay but not good. It has super armor which, with proper timing, helps prevent gimps as it has pretty low startup. But its vertical distance is rather lackluster. It's not terrible, but it's certainly not good. Fortunately, with Flare Blitz, Charizard has no reason be so low off stage to begin with now, so Fly can get the job done for when you need a vertical recovery. But this move actually shines, as an Out of Shield (OoS) and GTFO option. Fly's low startup and super armor, means you can interrupt strings/combos on you as well as get someone off you who's hit your shield. Fly can also follow up Nair at lower percents. AND, at high percents, if your opponent DI's Jab 2 incorrectly and you can react fast enough, you can get a Fly out of that! (not guaranteed but still nice). The best part is that Fly kills now at pretty good percents too. I would personally recommend that as a Charizard player, you'll want to practice ways of landing this attack just like you would practice landing Flare Blitz. Fly is pretty legit. It's really only let down by its high end lag: if you miss, its gonna cost you. So be careful about using this.

ROCK-SMASH:

Verdict:

Explanation: Those who played Charizard in Brawl will miss the old Rock Smash. It pretty much works the same way this one does...except it had ridiculously long lasting hitboxes after the actual rock smash animation, making it REALLY hard to punish when spaced. The new version of Rock Smash isn't as potent but still quite good. Its a still a good spacing tool when properly spaced and can work against those who like to spotdodge a lot. Rock Smash's true strength comes from its Super Armor while he's Smashing the rock. Learn to properly time this move so that you can punish threw opponent's spacing tools. Rock Smash does a crap load of damage if it all connects and it has decent KO power to boot. Charizard is a very tanky character, so we honestly don't mind making trades in most cases. Rock Smash isn't quite like Brawl's but its still a pretty good move and one worth learning how to use.

FORWARD-THROW:

Verdict:

Explanation: Forward Throw along with Back Throw is our most damaging throw, so use it when you really need damage. Its also pretty useful for getting people out of zone and possibly off stage. At low percents, you can possibly use this to set up for a tech chase as well (DI dependent). It's a simple throw. Not stellar but it has its uses.

BACK-THROW:

Verdict:

Explanation: Pretty much like Forward Throw, except backwards. Use it when you need to get someone off stage mainly. Does decent damage and more than our other throws. Spoiler alert: None of Zard's throws are great but they all serve unique purposes.

UP-THROW:

Verdict:

Explanation: Leads into Fair at super low percents, with some characters being DI dependent. It also just puts the opponent in a bad position, possibly allowing you to follow up if you can read them correctly. Honestly, this is going to be our least used throw after low percents. It only does 8% as well. It has a special niche but I don't see much use for it outside that. Fair and Bair do a better job of leading to follow ups.

DOWN-THROW:

Verdict:

Explanation: Does pitiful damage but deserves a 3 because its our only kill throw. So it can be pretty useful for when some of our other tools are not working and we don't want to take bigger risks. Down-Throw is a niche move; but a pretty important one.

 

[Masonomace]

Fantastic analysis TC. Read it all & had basically no complaints or debating BUT I do have one question:

Does Nair, our best move, have a sweet-spot when spinning? I'm talking about Zard's flame on his tail because that was the sweet-spot in Brawl.

Because a move like Nair that would also have a sweet-spot should actually be the more preferred aerial to truly prove that Nair IS love & that it IS life.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Thank you. And yes, it still functions a lot like Brawl versions. It does 10% Fresh when sweetspotted with the tip of the tail with the flame; 7% if you hit with it otherwise whether you are facing away or toward the opponent.

 

[Soul Train]

Fantastic analysis. Question on auto-cancelling Nair, because I can't seem to get the hang of it. What's the trick? Short hop and NO fast fall?

 

[-LzR-]

There is no trick to it. You just have to input the nair as soon as you jump and are in the air. Give it like 5 minutes in training and you should learn it. And no fastfall.

 

[Whookie]

Nice analysis Technical_Chase. No arguments from me except for Fly (would have rated it 3/5) but I'm guilty of not utilizing it as well as I could so I reconsider. I practice how to land Flare Blitz but not fly so that's a shortcoming on my part and something I'll work on.

Just wanted to add something too. I think it's something a lot of people has already noticed but Back throw has no lag on it compared to forward throw. Being able to dash as soon as you let go of the enemy is nice. I flare blitzed after a back throw and it unexpectedly hit Dedede at the start (probably dependent on how the enemy reacts).

At low percents, dashing and following up with an Fair can often happen. Amusingly, it's also what was shown in the Charizard/Greninja reveal trailer. The direction you throw is dependent on the circumstances of course but just wanted to bring up back throw's no lag.

 

[iVoltage]

Yeah now that I take another look at down smash it does have a bunch of lag that I had forgotten about. Still a good move though :V
Also great analysis! Well done

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So this was previously kinda discussed with uncertainty but now I'm sure that D-Tilt has IASA frames on it. Since it can be used for hard knockdowns....I see some nice uses here.

 

[Thinkaman]

Dragon Rush gets 6 Charizibbles

 

[Davregis]

Dragon Rush gets 6 Charizibbles

I would agree with this, and it seems some people prefer Flare Blitz over Rush. I'd love to hear a side-by-side comparison, as I'd be the first to admit I'm not too great at the game ^.^;

Blitz may be a killer, but the startup time and overall useability of Rush (offstage killer, even!) seem to offset the knockback.

 

[Funkermonster]

Personally I'd rather rate Flare Blitz a and I personally prefer Dragon Rush to it. Yes, it provides a tremendous horizontal recovery, does huge damage and knockback, and has some super armor on it; but its obvious flaw is not that only Zard damages himself during its use, but also has massive startup and is telegraphed thanks to the blue flame happening during the startup. It kinda signifies people to jump over it or shield it (despite great shield damage) and lets people know its coming before it happens, plus it makes Zard lay down after bumping into somebody, which I personally find to be kind of annoying.

Even worse, against characters with counters like and / this move is an absolute no-no outside of easy punishes, as not only are you telegraphing yourself and making it super easy for them to counter you, but you're still damaging yourself just by using it at all and taking a counter hit from your own attack power basically kills you. I haven't tried this in my experience, but I hypothesize that even fellow Pokemon like and (whose counters are both slow as hell and are considered pretty useless moves in general against most attacks, though they still pack a punch) might be able take advantage of it, since Zard is left lying on the ground after bouncing off the blitz unable to move for a moment.... unless maybe you can tech as soon as you bounce off Flare Blitz (can you?) and quickly shield or something before they strike.

If I discounted counters (since its matchup-specific anyway) though, I'd give it 4 Zard heads. I guess I'm just underrating the move and haven't had as good of an experience with it as everyone else. I still like Heat Wave in Project M better though.

Also, how might one rate the Custom Special Fireball Cannon or Fire Fang? I haven't really used either move in the heat of battle so my analysis is highly likely to be flawed , but Fireball Cannon feels kind of awkward to use for me when the damage is strangely low and he has a bit of a delay during each of the 3 shots, although the range it has pretty huge and it seems to cause a bit of hitstun during each fireball. I also wonder if it can be reflected back at him... Fire Fang I haven't unlocked so I have no opinion on it, but I'm curious.

 

[Knee Smasher]

My opinion:

Jab -

(extremely fast and has deceptive range especially on the third hit. Charizard's bread and butter along with its Nair and grab)
Dash Attack -
Forward-Tilt -
Up-Tilt -
Down-Tilt -
Neutral-Aerial -
Forward-Aerial - (one of Charizard's KO moves)
Back-Aerial - (extremely powerful, but so hard to hit and so easily punished due to the lag that it's not really worth using most of the time in my opinion)
Up-Aerial - (very hard to hit with from my experience)
Down-Aerial -
Forward-Smash - (very hard to hit with, though very rewarding as it KOs very early)
Up-Smash - (the second hit of the attack, the one with high knockback, very often fails to connect against all but the largest of characters, and even then the knockback is very underwhelming)
Down-Smash - (punishes rolls insanely well, and one of Charizard's most common and easy-to-hit-with KO moves)
Neutral-Special (Flamethrower) - (a large part of Charizard's approach game and edgeguard game)
Side-Special (Flare Blitz) - (Charizard's #1 KO and punishing move. Nothing more needs to be said)
Up-Special (Fly) - (most of this is in respect to the fact that Up B is a recovery move)
Down-Special (Rock Smash) -
Forward-Throw -
Back-Throw -
Up-Throw - (what is the point of this anyway?)
Down-Throw - (another one of Charizard's easiest-to-hit-with KO moves)

Also, I didn't give a for any of its throws specifically, but I think its grab in general deserves such.

 

[Shog]

I don't want to post for each move, but I can't believe Up Tilt is considered one of the worst move for charizard by some of you. His wings are invincible, meaning you can punish nearly every aerial approach from above and furthermore, you can juggle with it easily.

And following moves deserve :
N Air, all B moves (all of them can be used effectively and ARE important!), U Tilt and UpSmash(OOS for latter mostly), Grabs(xept UP Throw),Jabs


Dragon Rush because it has literally no draw back. But I have to admit, Flare Blitz has some important uses because it does it Projectiles and has power. But Dragon Rush is simply such a great stage control option, recovery option and "gimping" option. I swear if there is a "ledge cancel" for Dragon Rush, I will train it til I master it. Because Dragon Rush into Forward Back Air would be amazing.

 

[-LzR-]

I believe most of Charizard moves like Utilt, Downtilt, Dsmash are very situational but for what they are really good for what they are used for.

The more I play the less I have started to like Flame Charge. The rewards for landing the move don't usually make up for the self harm. The move right now is about as strong as a sweetspotted bair.

 

[Davregis]

I believe most of Charizard moves like Utilt, Downtilt, Dsmash are very situational but for what they are really good for what they are used for.

The more I play the less I have started to like Flame Charge. The rewards for landing the move don't usually make up for the self harm. The move right now is about as strong as a sweetspotted bair.

How 'bout Blast Burn, then? It trades horizontal motion and some startup for the ability to kill most medium characters around 60%, and hits from a little inside Flamethrower's range. It's also armored, and I feel that Blast Burn has the potential to be the preferable option on a few matchups.