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Character You're Looking Forward To The Least Because of P:M?

Banjodorf

Dynamic Duo
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8,455
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bluefalcon27
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Honestly Wario; I just don't really like the WarioWare Wario moveset, and PM Wario is everything I wanted in a Classic Wario playstyle.

Oh, and Ike. PM made Ike not super-stupidly slow. Not looking forward to having Brawl Ike+ in Smash 4, but I'll work with it, I guess.
 

Downdraft

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
556
Location
Huntsville, AL
I had no hype or hope for Zelda until I saw Nairo's play: granted, he's a pro. I will give Zelda shot in Smash 4, but I imagine that most will agree that PM Zelda >>> Smash 4 Zelda.
 

Neerb

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
132
3DS FC
3308-4587-7068
As a Pit and Charizard main, going Brawl->ProjectM->3DS has been a rollercoaster of emotion. Can't we just pick a moveset and be happy with it?

I'm also hoping Ganondorf and Zelda don't suck like in Brawl, even if they aren't on PM levels.

On a side note, there are actually a lot of series-lore-related things that PM implemented that are actually appearing in 3DS, and that makes me very happy. For example, Link uses more techniques actually from his games (new back roll and dash attack particularly), Donkey Kong gets his rolling attack from Country that he should have had since 64, and Ike's flames are blue.
 

Trickerhere

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
521
Meta Knight cause his down air in PM was amazing and Lucario cause also his down air lol.
 
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D

Deleted member

Guest
There is one answer: Wario.
I love what they did with him in Project M. They gave Wario many of his moves from the Wario Land games, the games that helped make Wario popular in the first place and they are important since those games were in the first ten years of his career. It's a massive shame that the series is getting overlooked again, even more so now since the Shoulder Bash is completely removed.
 

shapular

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
772
Location
Chattanooga, TN
None of them. PMBR is pretty bad at character design. There's actually one character in particular that's the reverse of this. PM Charizard always bothered me because they changed his ftilt which was my favorite move from Brawl Charizard. I got to try out Smash 4 Charizard a couple weeks ago (the day it came out actually) and he's way more fun than either Charizard. Trust me on this, guys.

Toon Link, he was finally given his own unique move-set only to have it taken away by the devil-worshiper known as Sakurai.
You kidding? You know PM Toon Link is basically Young Link from Melee, right? Brawl Tink is less of a clone than PM Tink.

I had no hype or hope for Zelda until I saw Nairo's play: granted, he's a pro. I will give Zelda shot in Smash 4, but I imagine that most will agree that PM Zelda >>> Smash 4 Zelda.
I disagree. PM Zelda is fun, but too gimmicky.
 

Aunt Jemima

It's ya girl
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
3,619
Wario...

His moveset in Project M is just god-like compared to his Brawl moveset.
 

Downdraft

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
556
Location
Huntsville, AL
I disagree. PM Zelda is fun, but too gimmicky.
The only move that's sorta a gimmick is Din's Fire. I was speaking from a design standpoint.
Which of Zelda's moves in Smash 4 are objectively better than their Project M counterpart?
Altogether, Project M Zelda is a much better character that was designed by competitive players that actually know the strengths and weaknesses of Zelda's design in Melee/Brawl.
 

shapular

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Messages
772
Location
Chattanooga, TN
The only move that's sorta a gimmick is Din's Fire. I was speaking from a design standpoint.
Which of Zelda's moves in Smash 4 are objectively better than their Project M counterpart?
Altogether, Project M Zelda is a much better character that was designed by competitive players that actually know the strengths and weaknesses of Zelda's design in Melee/Brawl.
Which moves are objectively better? Off the top of my head, Farore's Wind, dtilt, and dair. Din's Fire is better in a sense. I like Smash 4 Zelda because it looks like she can be played similarly to Brawl Zelda, but much more effectively. PMBR prefers to give characters gimmicky tools and make them rely on them too much. PM Zelda relies a ton on Din's Fire gimmicks, but if they don't work she still has most of the problems Brawl Zelda does. Smash 4 Zelda looks like you can actually play her somewhat aggressively, if Nairo's play is any indication. PM Zelda might be better tier-wise (although Smash 4 Zelda looks nasty), but I think Smash 4 Zelda is better designed.
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
Location
Ottawa
@ JamietheAuraUser JamietheAuraUser I totally agree with you about C.Falcon and Meta Knight. MK was the only character with actual mobility, ergo he was the one with the best chases, aprroaches, baits, follow ups, etc. Plus his qucik attacks, finishers, varied/long recovery, priority, throws, and more.

Your explanation of airspeeds affecting recovery was mathematically on point as well. More force counteracting remaining knockback means you canbegin moving back towards stage faster.

I've seen some videos of C.Falcon; I've seen him combo uairs from dthrow. The upair spam looks like SSB64. I've also seen some Ness; he looks pretty nice as well. Best incarnation yet perhaps?

Customizable movesets are awesome. So is the portable aspect. Those are two things I always wanted in my childhood. Another thing I always wanted: custom stages for casual play (dare I say it!). They totally sucked in Brawl. Anyone hear anything about their return or expanded features, etc.?

On a final note, has anyone seen Samus (not ZSS) gameplay? I like Samus. Nintendo said she was the strongest, but I have yet to see anything about her. Granted, I'm not looking hard, but I'm still curious.
 

NinjaWaddleDee

Smash Apprentice
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Sep 13, 2014
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198
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Dedede's Castle
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Poor Samus and Kirby :( I really loved Samus' new speed and dodge found in Project M. Kirby's sword dash was amazing too!
 

JamietheAuraUser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,196
Location
somewhere west of Unova
@ JamietheAuraUser JamietheAuraUser I totally agree with you about C.Falcon and Meta Knight. MK was the only character with actual mobility, ergo he was the one with the best chases, aprroaches, baits, follow ups, etc. Plus his qucik attacks, finishers, varied/long recovery, priority, throws, and more.

Your explanation of airspeeds affecting recovery was mathematically on point as well. More force counteracting remaining knockback means you canbegin moving back towards stage faster.

I've seen some videos of C.Falcon; I've seen him combo uairs from dthrow. The upair spam looks like SSB64. I've also seen some Ness; he looks pretty nice as well. Best incarnation yet perhaps?

Customizable movesets are awesome. So is the portable aspect. Those are two things I always wanted in my childhood. Another thing I always wanted: custom stages for casual play (dare I say it!). They totally sucked in Brawl. Anyone hear anything about their return or expanded features, etc.?

On a final note, has anyone seen Samus (not ZSS) gameplay? I like Samus. Nintendo said she was the strongest, but I have yet to see anything about her. Granted, I'm not looking hard, but I'm still curious.
Meta Knight's horizontal air mobility is actually among the worst in the Brawl cast, not counting the Mach Tornado. Not that this stops his stupid follow-ups, insanely wide-reaching and fast attacks, and transcendent priority on everything that's not the Mach Tornado. And it's funny how nasty the Mach Tornado's "priority" actually is, considering it can't actually clash with any attack dealing more than 9% damage. I think the real big problem is that it gives him horizontal mobility and also doesn't have anywhere near enough endlag. What it needs is either a combination of less horizontal movement, longer minimum duration, and less vacuum effect reach, or less horizontal movement and more endlag. With longer minimum duration and a weaker vacuum effect, characters like Ike, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Link would be able to smash right through it with their high-damage attacks, such as Ike's FTilt, C. Falcon's/Ganondorf's FSmash, and Link's FSmash, FTilt, and Dash Attack.

Re: Samus: One of her custom missiles makes them move super-slowly but last forever. The homing variants can chase pretty much unerringly, and she can have two of them and a Super Missile out at once. There's also a Charge Beam variant that makes the shot slower and shorter-range, with it being even slower and shorter-range the more it's charged. Two Homing Missiles + one Super Missile + one Charge Shot = insane stage control that lets Samus make some crazy approaches, since they're all slow enough for Samus to outrun them.

She also has a custom missile that makes them take longer to start up, then suddenly speed up and blast straight forward. Homing missiles lock on in place, pivoting to face the target, before suddenly speeding forward faster than a standard Super Missile. Naturally, these are easy to dodge simply because they do just fly straight at insane speed, but I can see them being useful in certain circumstances, especially if you want to play a more "campy" Samus. Super Missiles with this customization take even longer to get moving, then suddenly blast forward further and faster than normal Super Missiles do. Unfortunately, these missiles have no hitboxes before they start moving, so an opponent who's up in your face can just swat them out of the sky before they can do anything.

Another custom Charge Beam is essentially a close-range shotgun blast. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be any stronger than a standard Charge Beam, but it does charge much faster.

Oh, and the has an upwards Shinespark as a custom Up Special. Samus bursts upwards faster than a Screw Attack, hitting once on startup and again at the upper tip. This makes it a little less safe as a recovery despite the increased speed of the actual movement, since she's lacking hitboxes in the middle. It also doesn't give her any vertical momentum boost as she goes into helpless fall (unlike the Screw Attack), instead just leaving her to plummet. In exchange, the first hit always combos into the second hit, and the second hit can kill from 95-100%. This move is seriously powerful as a KO move, but it's a rather weak recovery since it goes almost completely upwards. She can still slightly influence horizontal movement during the move itself, but since she just plummets into helpless from this move its horizontal and diagonal recovery abilities are weak. It almost looks like the move actually adds a slight amount of downward momentum when it puts her into helpless.

Her other custom Up Special is essentially the Screw Attack crossed with Lloyd Irving's Omega Tempest from Tales of Symphonia. Samus performs a Screw Attack diagonally forwards, then pops upwards at the end. Unfortunately, the forward dash portion doesn't combo into the upward pop. Instead, the forward dash has pretty solid horizontal knockback that can KO at around 110-115% with good positioning, and like the standard Screw Attack Samus gets a little extra vertical boost at the end that gives her increased horizontal mobility while in helpless fall. Problem: The initial portion of the move gets less vertical movement in the air than on the ground, which can cause her to slide down the slopes on stages like Battlefield or Final Destination instead of up them. Overall, this move allows you to pursue a foe a shortish distance offstage for a horizontal KO and still return to the stage despite being in helpless fall. However, what it gains in horizontal recovery and as a horizontal finisher, it loses in vertical recovery.

One of her custom Down Specials creates Morph Bombs that cause grounded foes to trip. If I recall correctly, they also cause a weak meteor smash on airborne foes. Basically, these things are crazy awesome, to be perfectly blunt. You can get guaranteed follow-ups off of a trip from these bombs, and of course tripping your foe is a good way to guarantee a successful retreat if you really don't want to be in close quarters (though why wouldn't you?).


On the subject of Samus, why exactly did the Super Smash Flash 2 developers think she was a lightweight, anyway? Samus is not a freakin' lightweight in any game in the series! Like she dies at 78% off the top from anything with remotely decent knockback, and even gets launched horizontally easily. It's stupid. If I'm Samus, I shouldn't be bounced off the walls and into combos on Shadow Moses Island at 60%, I should still be able to take a hit or two and keep up the offensive. Kirby's BAir from the left side of the stage bounces me off the right wall and into another BAir. What's that power suit made of? Sheet aluminum?
 

Bedoop

Poyon
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Meta Knight's horizontal air mobility is actually among the worst in the Brawl cast, not counting the Mach Tornado. Not that this stops his stupid follow-ups, insanely wide-reaching and fast attacks, and transcendent priority on everything that's not the Mach Tornado. And it's funny how nasty the Mach Tornado's "priority" actually is, considering it can't actually clash with any attack dealing more than 9% damage. I think the real big problem is that it gives him horizontal mobility and also doesn't have anywhere near enough endlag. What it needs is either a combination of less horizontal movement, longer minimum duration, and less vacuum effect reach, or less horizontal movement and more endlag. With longer minimum duration and a weaker vacuum effect, characters like Ike, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, and Link would be able to smash right through it with their high-damage attacks, such as Ike's FTilt, C. Falcon's/Ganondorf's FSmash, and Link's FSmash, FTilt, and Dash Attack.

Re: Samus: One of her custom missiles makes them move super-slowly but last forever. The homing variants can chase pretty much unerringly, and she can have two of them and a Super Missile out at once. There's also a Charge Beam variant that makes the shot slower and shorter-range, with it being even slower and shorter-range the more it's charged. Two Homing Missiles + one Super Missile + one Charge Shot = insane stage control that lets Samus make some crazy approaches, since they're all slow enough for Samus to outrun them.

She also has a custom missile that makes them take longer to start up, then suddenly speed up and blast straight forward. Homing missiles lock on in place, pivoting to face the target, before suddenly speeding forward faster than a standard Super Missile. Naturally, these are easy to dodge simply because they do just fly straight at insane speed, but I can see them being useful in certain circumstances, especially if you want to play a more "campy" Samus. Super Missiles with this customization take even longer to get moving, then suddenly blast forward further and faster than normal Super Missiles do. Unfortunately, these missiles have no hitboxes before they start moving, so an opponent who's up in your face can just swat them out of the sky before they can do anything.

Another custom Charge Beam is essentially a close-range shotgun blast. Unfortunately, it does not seem to be any stronger than a standard Charge Beam, but it does charge much faster.

Oh, and the has an upwards Shinespark as a custom Up Special. Samus bursts upwards faster than a Screw Attack, hitting once on startup and again at the upper tip. This makes it a little less safe as a recovery despite the increased speed of the actual movement, since she's lacking hitboxes in the middle. It also doesn't give her any vertical momentum boost as she goes into helpless fall (unlike the Screw Attack), instead just leaving her to plummet. In exchange, the first hit always combos into the second hit, and the second hit can kill from 95-100%. This move is seriously powerful as a KO move, but it's a rather weak recovery since it goes almost completely upwards. She can still slightly influence horizontal movement during the move itself, but since she just plummets into helpless from this move its horizontal and diagonal recovery abilities are weak. It almost looks like the move actually adds a slight amount of downward momentum when it puts her into helpless.

Her other custom Up Special is essentially the Screw Attack crossed with Lloyd Irving's Omega Tempest from Tales of Symphonia. Samus performs a Screw Attack diagonally forwards, then pops upwards at the end. Unfortunately, the forward dash portion doesn't combo into the upward pop. Instead, the forward dash has pretty solid horizontal knockback that can KO at around 110-115% with good positioning, and like the standard Screw Attack Samus gets a little extra vertical boost at the end that gives her increased horizontal mobility while in helpless fall. Problem: The initial portion of the move gets less vertical movement in the air than on the ground, which can cause her to slide down the slopes on stages like Battlefield or Final Destination instead of up them. Overall, this move allows you to pursue a foe a shortish distance offstage for a horizontal KO and still return to the stage despite being in helpless fall. However, what it gains in horizontal recovery and as a horizontal finisher, it loses in vertical recovery.

One of her custom Down Specials creates Morph Bombs that cause grounded foes to trip. If I recall correctly, they also cause a weak meteor smash on airborne foes. Basically, these things are crazy awesome, to be perfectly blunt. You can get guaranteed follow-ups off of a trip from these bombs, and of course tripping your foe is a good way to guarantee a successful retreat if you really don't want to be in close quarters (though why wouldn't you?).


On the subject of Samus, why exactly did the Super Smash Flash 2 developers think she was a lightweight, anyway? Samus is not a freakin' lightweight in any game in the series! Like she dies at 78% off the top from anything with remotely decent knockback, and even gets launched horizontally easily. It's stupid. If I'm Samus, I shouldn't be bounced off the walls and into combos on Shadow Moses Island at 60%, I should still be able to take a hit or two and keep up the offensive. Kirby's BAir from the left side of the stage bounces me off the right wall and into another BAir. What's that power suit made of? Sheet aluminum?
Mario's NAir can Clank/Disable Mach Tornado.
Mario Confirmed Hard-Counter.
 

CryoGX

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
470
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CryoGX
Mewtwo

Sonic's my main, although he seems incredulously buffed in Sm4sh, so it shouldn't be bad at all.
 

Kohak

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
95
Location
Hawaii
Charizard. For many reasons, but I think the most bittersweet one is that ssb4 gave him the Seismic Toss uthrow, but it doesn't look like a kill move.
 

MasterOfKnees

Space Pirate
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I'm a bit opposite of others, I'm looking extra forward to Meta Knight because his PM counterpart was pretty unbearable to play in the long run. I think the only one I wish was more like in PM is Ike.
 

JamietheAuraUser

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 11, 2010
Messages
1,196
Location
somewhere west of Unova
I'm a bit opposite of others, I'm looking extra forward to Meta Knight because his PM counterpart was pretty unbearable to play in the long run. I think the only one I wish was more like in PM is Ike.
P:M Ike is pretty cool from what I've seen. Definitely love the multiple counter quotes chosen at random, as well as the reanimated Aether that uses his actual sword instead of a separate article, allowing it to have a sword trail. Smash 4 did his Final Smash better though, making all the flames blue instead of just the final explosion.

P:M Meta Knight had that cool DAir, though! I dunno much about the rest of his playstyle in P:M, but that DAir is just awesome.
 

MasterOfKnees

Space Pirate
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P:M Ike is pretty cool from what I've seen. Definitely love the multiple counter quotes chosen at random, as well as the reanimated Aether that uses his actual sword instead of a separate article, allowing it to have a sword trail. Smash 4 did his Final Smash better though, making all the flames blue instead of just the final explosion.

P:M Meta Knight had that cool DAir, though! I dunno much about the rest of his playstyle in P:M, but that DAir is just awesome.
The D-Air would be pretty awful without L-Cancelling though, his current D-Air serves him much better as it's an amazing gimping tool, something he absolutely needs with the nerf to his KO power.
 

kchamp523

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
41
Zss definitely. Though once I do play smash 4, I'll most likely use the new characters.
 

_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
549
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
So, how is everyone enjoying the game? Have you gotten your chances to try it out or not, and do you all prefer it to Project M or vice versa? I played it almost a month ago now on my friend's 3DS, and I absolutely loved seeing ma boyz Link and Ness buffed, as well as Boozer and Captain Falcon too. It didn't feel like Brawl to me, but some things bothered me, such as the extremely long lives due to vectoring and the loss of dash-dancing and L-cancels. Besides that, the game is very well balanced, and it certainly isn't the same game as Melee or Brawl. Whichever game you're playing right now, I hope you enjoy it! :grin:
 

_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
549
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Unfortunately, I don't think Roy is ever going to come back. :(
He was one of my favourite characters too, but at least Project M has done a great job with him! Though many people say he's a bad character, he can pretty good as proved by Sethlon, especially at Apex last year.
 
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