Character specific airdodges - Opinions?

[Yobolight]

Example:
Luigi has Melee airdodge
Wario has Brawl airdodge

Such a split I think would allow interesting metagame development, how would you feel about this?

 

[Player -0]

Example:
Luigi has Melee airdodge
Wario has Brawl airdodge

Such a split I think would allow interesting metagame development, how would you feel about this?

I think it would be unfair to the other characters since Luigi could use the wavedashing and wavelanding to be much quicker overall than maybe Wario, and add Brawl's floaty physics and Luigi's recovery and overall speed would be really good. I think it should stay consistent.

 

[Yobolight]

I mean the characters with Melee air dodges would be subject to follow ups that the Brawl airdodge characters could escape.

 

[Ulevo]

This wouldn't work over well because it Smash is a game that is accessible to players of multiple skill levels because of the simplicity of the basic mechanics, and because the controls are consistent among all the characters. Things like rolls, shielding, crouching, jumping are all universally controlled and share common attributes. Air dodge is no exception. I'm not even sure why you would want to do implement it this way to be honest.

There's also a balance issue. Characters that had Melee styled airdodges would be inherently better than those without.

 

[XquiZiTX8X]

Nah, keep a certain style for all characters. One character can gain too much of an advantage from a certain style and another wouldn't gain anything, or be hindered.

Preferably, bring back Brawl's which I'm sure is the case. Nothing better than baiting air dodge abusers with a nice charged up smash.

 

[Yobolight]

I disagree.

I think if you literally copy and pasted Brawl MetaKnight into Melee that he would instantly be top/high tier even with a Brawl airdodge.

 

[DRM4R10]

I'd like everyone to have melee air dodge, but somewhere I think it said that Smash 4 will have Brawl air dodge. ;_; I wanted to wavedash.

 

[extremechiton]

i prefer the brawl airdodge

 

[extremechiton]

i prefer the brawl airdodge

 

[Player -0]

I like both airdodges, for brawl it's easier to dodge things and recover as you don't go into special fall after each airdodge but for melee you can use it offensively and for more maneuverability. It's like comparing an axe and a pickaxe, both are really good but do different jobs.

 

[Double Helix]

I disagree.

I think if you literally copy and pasted Brawl MetaKnight into Melee that he would instantly be top/high tier even with a Brawl airdodge.

It would literally be impossible to copy paste Brawl MetaKnight. MetaKnight relies on the SECOND mechanic that Brawl changed highly (but only for some characters I'm pretty sure): being able to attack after using up-B. Also physics changes would really hurt him lol. In any case, it is just impossible to tell.

I prefer Melee's airdodge simply due to the ability to go in a direction. Also you had to be smart because you had one of them, not more. Heck, I would take Melee's airdodge even if you couldn't use it to wavedash, though that is a plus.

 

[BaPr]

Wait, what's the differences between Melee and Brawl air dodges? I know Brawl is used multiple times and melee is used once, but what else is there?

 

[PrincessAzula]

Wait, what's the differences between Melee and Brawl air dodges? I know Brawl is used multiple times and melee is used once, but what else is there?

In Melee you could only air dodge once in the air. Also, it left you in a helpless state after you air dodged. In Brawl, you can obviously air dodge more than once and it doesn't leave you helpless.

On the flip side, in Melee you could also perform a Directional Air Dodge, where you can move to the right or move down and so on. So, some characters could use that as like a last ditch effort for getting to the stage, since it would move you up some. Also, Melee air dodges allow you to waveland and wavedash. In Brawl, you couldn't move when you air dodged and you just remained in that place or kept flying in what direction you were sent in.

 

[BaPr]

In Melee you could only air dodge once in the air. Also, it left you in a helpless state after you air dodged. In Brawl, you can obviously air dodge more than once and it doesn't leave you helpless.

On the flip side, in Melee you could also perform a Directional Air Dodge, where you can move to the right or move down and so on. So, some characters could use that as like a last ditch effort for getting to the stage, since it would move you up some. Also, Melee air dodges allow you to waveland and wavedash. In Brawl, you couldn't move when you air dodged and you just remained in that place or kept flying in what direction you were sent in.

What is Wavelanding and Wave dashing?

 

[PrincessAzula]

It's an advanced technique in Melee that allows characters to move across the ground (not running or walking or rolling) very quickly. Essentially, it's like air dodging into the ground, and the momentum from the air dodge propels you in whatever direction you air dodged to.

Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVHGl4x-XnY

 

[BaPr]

I learned two things
1: What wavedashing is
2: Luigi is the best wavedasher

 

[DakotaBonez]

The Brawl airdodgers would be invincible, they can just keep mashing the dodge button. But the Melee air dodgers would be able to adjust their position and freeze in midair, but only get the one dodge before they start falling. Both have their advantages, and if ya think that being able to wavedash equals overpowered you're mistaken.
I don't understand why the first airdodge can't be directional and all of the following would just be brawl airdodges. Being limited to one dodge in the air sucks. Brawl air dodges allowed you to keep the momentum of your jump, in melee you froze in the air and could shift your position.

 

[Dash000]

I want brawl airdodge, but only one like Melee

 

[Player -0]

The Brawl airdodgers would be invincible, they can just keep mashing the dodge button. But the Melee air dodgers would be able to adjust their position and freeze in midair, but only get the one dodge before they start falling. Both have their advantages, and if ya think that being able to wavedash equals overpowered you're mistaken.
I don't understand why the first airdodge can't be directional and all of the following would just be brawl airdodges. Being limited to one dodge in the air sucks. Brawl air dodges allowed you to keep the momentum of your jump, in melee you froze in the air and could shift your position.

The problem with having your first airdodge being directional is that it would help recoveries if you didn't go into special fall. It's an interesting idea, I just don't think it would work out. I mean it could, I just don't think it would happen.

 

[Ulevo]

The Brawl airdodgers would be invincible, they can just keep mashing the dodge button. But the Melee air dodgers would be able to adjust their position and freeze in midair, but only get the one dodge before they start falling. Both have their advantages, and if ya think that being able to wavedash equals overpowered you're mistaken.
I don't understand why the first airdodge can't be directional and all of the following would just be brawl airdodges. Being limited to one dodge in the air sucks. Brawl air dodges allowed you to keep the momentum of your jump, in melee you froze in the air and could shift your position.

The Brawl air dodge would not make them invincible. There are clear openings on when you can punish an air dodge. In fact, it would be even easier to punish in a Melee engine because you could combo them as a punish.

As for being limited to one air dodge, while I won't say its better in every way (as they do have tradeoffs), I would argue having the freedom to air doge continually is worse. When you manage to throw or get your opponent offstages or send them above you, you should be rewarded with positional advantage. Being able to air dodge whenever you want, as many times as you want, sort of makes this null and void. That was Sakurai's entire intention; to make it easier.

 

[IhaveSonar]

A good compromise would be just one brawl airdodge as opposed to unlimited dodges. This would allow aerial opponents a solid defense without excessive immunity to combos. Wavedashing would obviously be nonexistant, but that isn't necessary for a good smash game.

 

[Ulevo]

As much as I would like to have wavedashing, I do think that is a good solution to the Brawl airdodge design.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I'm just trying to think about this from the viewpoint of someone making a game designed around 4 player combat with items.
If you only have one airdodge and then you are left in a helpless falling state, then yeah you can dodge 1 opponent's attack, but what if that attack is followed up by a PK Sh#$storm or other stage hazard or another opponent tries to attack you after you dodged that first attack? You are left totally open because you decided to dodge. This discourages dodging unless you are in a 1 vs 1 no items no stage hazard kinda match.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm just trying to think about this from the viewpoint of someone making a game designed around 4 player combat with items.
If you only have one airdodge and then you are left in a helpless falling state, then yeah you can dodge 1 opponent's attack, but what if that attack is followed up by a PK Sh#$storm or other stage hazard or another opponent tries to attack you after you dodged that first attack? You are left totally open because you decided to dodge. This discourages dodging unless you are in a 1 vs 1 no items no stage hazard kinda match.

It doesn't discourage dodging because in that instance at least you dodged something. But what you're describing here is precisely why free for all and item tournaments are not the standard or commonly practiced. You can't properly balance around it, particularly free for all scenarios. It's better to focus on 1v1 balance and hope that this transitions in to a not-balanced-but-better-than-nothing free for all state because an imbalanced character in a 1v1 situation is likely to be just as imbalanced, if not more so, in a free for all. However the reverse is not necessarily true, and is harder to account for.

 

[DakotaBonez]

I don't know anymore.
I like being able to carry the momentum from my jump in a Brawl air dodge.
But being able to freeze midair like in Melee is also useful.

Anyway on the topic of character specific air dodges, I'm in favor of all character's sharing a universal dodge.

 

[PrincessAzula]

I don't know anymore.
I like being able to carry the momentum from my jump in a Brawl air dodge.
But being able to freeze midair like in Melee is also useful.

Anyway on the topic of character specific air dodges, I'm in favor of all character's sharing a universal dodge.

Agreed. Some air dodges, like Peach's, were just near useless. I find it idiotic that they had different air dodge frame speeds.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Agreed. Some air dodges, like Peach's, were just near useless. I find it idiotic that they had different air dodge frame speeds.

I wasn't even aware that there was any difference in the air dodges. There must be a balancing reason for having different dodge speeds. I mean in other fighting games, some characters get an air dash or a second jump and other's dont. Some characters can run and others can only dash a short distance.