Character Flaws Discussion: Recognizing & Capitalizing on Designed Weaknesses

[Conda]

Hey guys, I wanted to start a discussion not about matchups or character tiers, but instead about intentionally designed character weaknesses. I'm talking about weaknesses like "Little Mac's airgame/recovery" or "Ganondorf's speed" or "Rosalina's Luma dying." These are designed 'shortcomings' for characters that balance out their strengths, and can be used against them.

The focus will be on recognizing these weaknesses throughout the cast, and what they actually mean for their metagame and how they'll develop as characters. As a Dr. Mario main, for example, you'll have to find a way to cope with your designed weakness of having a bad recovery.

We'll discuss what these weaknesses mean, how they can be de-emphasized, and how you can avoid them being used against you to spell your doom in competitive matches.

For example, Ness:

He can still be gimped easily out of his PKT. It's less easy this time around, as the default PKT passes through opponents on startup (can't just bodyblock the thunderbolt anymore), but there is also an abundance of wind effects in this game, notably in custom moves, and this imo brings back to life the classic Smash Bros dynamic of Ness being easy to gimp out of PKT.

Also, in Brawl, Ness could play safe by focusing on using his doublejump to recover onto the stage instead of PKT. You'd DJ and airdodge into the stage to have a safe landing. Ness can't airdodge to safety anymore to have a safe landing the way he used to, as there is huge landing lag on airdodging. Thus the best choice now is likely to Nair into the ground (maybe there's a better way to cover his landing upon DJ recovery?) - characters that can punish/outprioritize Ness's nair will have the advantage of being able to prevent Ness from safely landing more often then not.


(erroneously posted this in 3ds general first)

 

[Minuy600]

Luigi:
His jump is way to floaty, and he slips around like he is really fast, while he isn't. He definatly feels nerfed from Brawl, while he didn't need a nerf.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'll talk about Rosalina since she's my main.

Luma being vulnerable and easily killed is obviously a designed weakness. Hitting it over a pit is a guaranteed kill, for starters. Rosalina players learn pretty quick that keeping Luma safe, while desirable, is not something to be overly fussed about. After all, the stock counter only cares about Rosalina herself, and going out of your way to save Luma can leave you open if you're not careful. However, it's easy for Rosalina to punish someone who's too zealous with pursuing Luma. Using the wrong attack to hit it, or doing it too close to Rosalina, is basically asking to get hit in return.

So on both sides of the equation there's a lot of learning and adapting to be done. Rosalina has to be selective with when she sends Luma out and calls it back, as both involve her being briefly locked into an animation. Opponents have to pick their opportunities to strike at Luma wisely lest Rosalina punish them in return. It's a delicate back and forth, and it plays out a bit differently for each character, but I think the balance between how easy it is to keep Luma safe vs. how easy it is for someone to hit Luma away will be one of the defining factors how people deal with Rosalina. An interesting sort of risk and reward for both parties since Luma respawns in 8 seconds anyway, so it's important to capitalize/survive in its absence.

The other major factor I feel will be how much Rosalina relies on Luma to be effective. She can play a good defensive game on her own, but Luma is key to her offense and stage control, and she has a few blind spots that Luma helps cover. How well she can function solo, probably on a per-character basis, will be a big influence on how she develops and will also impact how risky one can afford to be with Luma. There's much less incentive to keep it safe if Rosalina can handle herself.

 

[otter]

Rosalina is also super light, which is a designed weakness that usually fails in practice. Sort of like how most fighters have an OP character with the most options but low health. Metaknight as well.

But this is a cool thread so if we could not complain about Rosalina the entire time, that would be fun.

 

[Alaya]

Lucina has a two key weaknesses I have noticed that she inherits from Marth. Here they are and how I've learned to handle them.

1) No anti-camping tools: Lucina has many options for fighting enemies in short to mid range, but she has no projectile or reflector to camp or fight back against camping. If the enemy has any sort of range, Lucina's only option is to observe the patterns and attempt to approach, fully knowing that the instant she closes the gap the enemy will be waiting to try and punish her. Since this is clearly going to happen, it creates a mindgame where Lucina has to close the gap, potentially taking damage or getting into a bad position, for a single chance to guess correctly and break through the camp. If she fails, she then will have to deal with whatever punishment is dealt her way, ranging from being knocked up/offstage into a recovery position to just resetting the camp.

There are ways around this though. My personal bread and butter is to approach from the air. Most characters have poor diagonal anti-air attacks, but Lucina's sword arcs often cover those areas. Thus, you can hop over projectiles and approach from diagonally where you will win any attempt to exchange attacks against most characters. Once they catch on and realize that they cannot swat you out of the sky from your approach angle, they will start using other options when you get close. Most likely they will try and shield your attack and grab you.

Luckily, Lucina has shield breaker which is greatly buffed in Sm4sh, a single uncharged hit on most characters will almost break a full shield and even a quarter second charge will shatter most shields completely. Adding in that the shield breaker gives can give you great horizontal distance depending on the charge and you have a powerful second approach option. If the shield doesn't break, they will still be pushed back and unable to risk shielding even basic attacks for a short while, and if it does break that's an instant death from a full charged upsmash if they aren't close to 0%.

Those are two approach options for what to do when you close the gap diagonally from the air. If they realize that they can't attack or shield when you come in, they will start taking other options if they're smart. A camper with a counter like palutenia may choose to use her own counter, but if you notice that this is her default option you can mix up your timing to land and hit her after she wiffs her counter, or use empty hops to weave in and out of her range until she wiffs a punish attempt and leaves herself open. They may spot dodge, but if you start a fast mid air side-b combo on her it will hit her as she comes out and you wont have any landing lag if you start the combo before you hit the ground. Most likely though they will simply try to roll away and reset the camp if you manage to get your approach right, in which case (if you anticipate this) you can fast fall at them to bait the roll and dash PAST their first roll and dash attack them as they go into their second roll, launching them and setting up for your own air game.

If you can close the gap enough to approach with a single hop, then you can empty approach them to bait an anti air commitment from them, double jumping and then fast fall down airing them, meteor smashing them into an upsmash if done perfectly.

If they actually do have a close ranged attack that can beat your diagonal air approach, you can simply jump into them and counter it when you expect them to use it, mixing in other approach options like side-b, fast fall tech chase, shield breaker, etc. as you read it.

You can also approach from the ground against a camping character, but this can be much slower and more dangerous depending on the matchup. Unlike in an air approach with which you can ignore the projectiles of most campers entirely (though you still should be trying to approach them right when they lag from firing one), you have to observe the pattern and form a plan for gaining ground as well as what to do when you get in range. Whether you plan to go into a side b, dash attack, dash-grab, or short hop into a close air approach or something else entirely, you first must get past a wall of spam. So, you observe that Link for example and make a few attempts to gain ground just to see how he reacts. You notice that if you shield his arrow he immediately throws a boomering and then a bomb before trying an arrow again. Next time, you shield the arrow, immediately roll through the boomering into a short hop over the bomb into an attack of your choice right as he's trying to use his bow and score a hit that breaks the camp for the moment.

You'll find that most campers have muscle memorized one or two patterns of spam and if you can figure out how to close through them consistently they won't have anything else up their sleeve but to try to roll away and hope that you'll make a mistake when they try it again. If you force them to mix things up by trying to to melee attack you when you get close, they'll find themselves in a situation where they don't have as much experience as you since they probably have spent most of their time throwing projectiles rather than fighting up close which will give you an edge.


2) Lucina has no rapid horizontal gapclosing ability. That means both that she has to weave through projectiles rather than teleporting through them or diving in all at once through a gap, and that if she is sent too far off screen horizontally she has little hope of recovering unless she is also very high on the screen. More importantly, it makes it hard for her to punish people who roll multiple times in a row, her only real option being to dash past them and hope to dash attack them or pivot ftilt them out of the second roll. Her upsmash has a small horizontal hitbox and a short window so it can't be reliable to punish crossup rolls, and her side smashes are just a fraction of a second too slow to not land on shield or miss entirely. Her best bet is to side-b into a crossup roll. If it's a camper who is roll spamming away, it's a simple matter of letting them run back to the ledge like they want to do, then predicting the forward roll when you get close since they only have one way to go. Fast falling into someone and side-b at the direction of their roll and you will catch them if you're fast enough since on a forward roll the vulnerability is on the startup.

Admittedly, I'm not as good at punishing rolls with Lucina as I'd like, but these are the two main weaknesses that I've been dealing with in my For Glory matches (49% winrate on 400ish games as Lucina :/). This is my first smash game that I've done anything but button mash though, so I could be way off on everything.

 

[Dreamer_]

I decided to also post on Lucina. (I'm a real original guy huh?)

Anyway one thing I've noticed is that none of Lucina's aerials have landing lag. This means that if you use one of her aerials while close to the ground and fast fall before the animation is over, Lucina will have lag when she lands, leaving yourself wide open for a nice (at least for your opponent) and juicy punish. This makes moves like D-air and N-air pretty useless/situational as they have pretty long animations and little reward to offer if you hit them. (Yes I'm aware her D-air can spike but the hitbox to actually spike is so specific that it's not worth the risk.)

However, her F-air, B-air and U-Air all come out pretty quickly. So when I'm approaching with Lucina's F-air or B-air, I wait for the animation to finish before fast falling to the ground and approaching from there. This allows me to attack/try to attack the opponent from the air and land without lag. I'll also F-air then double jump and F-air again or B-air to pressure and mixup the opponent. This is also a good way to combo/start a combo on the opponent. Having a strong air game with Lucina is just as important if not more important than a strong ground game since Lucina's kill potential will leave you with more to desire.

Speaking of Lucina's killing potential, it's pretty inconsistent and predictable. Lucina only has 3 moves that can kill at somewhat early percents that hit consistently. Her F-Smash, U-Smash, and D-Smash. Yes Lucina has more kill moves than that (Charged Shield breaker, Last hit of the forward variant for Dancing Blades, depending on the attack counter, etc.) but F-Smash, U-Smash, and D-Smash are the moves that you will use the most; with the most useful being the F-Smash, and the least useful being D-Smash.

When playing as Lucina it's your job to be as unpredictable as possible while still using Lucina's good combo potential to raise percent as well as positioning yourself or/and your opponent. If 90% of your plan for Lucina is spam F-Smash and counter until bad guy goes boom, then maybe you should take that plan back to the drawing board. Approach with Dancing blades or F-air/B-air or just punish your opponent (Block your opponents attacks then grab them. Lucina's grab range is pretty good so this is a very useful way to change the tide of battle and put your opponent on the defensive) and start racking up that percent. I find the upwards variant of the Dancing Blade is the most useful because it puts the opponent in a favorable position, hits the most consistently and leads to the most damage dealing aerial combos. Don't be afraid to counter either. Counters are great in this game since they have good knockback, can kill and are a good way of making your opponent respect your space. Getting in your opponent's head is a great way to make them overlook Lucina's predictable kill moves. When they've done that, that's when we get to the fun part.

Once your opponent is all hot, steamy 'n bothered. It's time to go in for the kill! Now you just have to use one of those 3 kill moves I was talking about earlier. So you're going to use F-Smash? A classic! If it ain't broken why fix it? Well remember that F-Smash has a great hitbox. You can land this move while the opponent is above you or beside you. This move has great knockback and damage, so it won't take many of these to leave you opponent licking their wounds.
Decided to go for a U-Smash? Good choice! This move is an absolute treat to use. Unlike most moves in this game, Lucina's U-Smash hitbox isn't as noticeable to spot. The hitbox isn't nearly as strict as say Marth's U-Smash hitbox in Melee either. In fact this move has a pretty good horizontal hitbox (please note I said pretty good, it's not broken or anything). This can really catch your opponent off guard and get you some kills that make you feel as mischievous as the Duck Hunt Dog.
Going for a D-Smash? Ehhh you can use it but it's going to take some work.. While D-Smash can kill, it doesn't actually start doing that until your opponent's percent is pretty high and is better used as a punish option for roll happy opponents. I tend to use D-Smash to get the opponent into a unfavorable position before finishing them off by ledge guarding with B-air/F-air or with a F-Smash or U-Smash.

I think that was all I had to say. I hope this is useful for other Lucina players out there! I main Kirby also so who knows? I may post here again with some info about him. Until then :D

 

[Gawain]

My notes on C. Falcon are already in my guide, and all the Melee and 64 guides pretty much apply. Stay on the stage and don't let them pressure you. Also don't get hit.

And Marth/Lucina (basically the same weaknesses): No/Extremely limited combo ability makes them have a hard time maintaining pressure. Both are easy to combo against too.

 

[Conda]

My notes on C. Falcon are already in my guide, and all the Melee and 64 guides pretty much apply. Stay on the stage and don't let them pressure you. Also don't get hit.

And Marth/Lucina (basically the same weaknesses): No/Extremely limited combo ability makes them have a hard time maintaining pressure. Both are easy to combo against too.

It's interesting that you'd say C. Falcon has the same weaknesses and such as previously in the series. Very cool design consistency.

Fox has changd quite a bit, I'd say, to the point of him having slightly new weaknesses and strengths. But C. Falcon has mainly had the same weaknesses and strength - his movepood has always performed a certain way, whereas the properties on Fox's moves have changed in each game.

 

[Alaya]

I decided to also post on Lucina. (I'm a real original guy huh?)

Anyway one thing I've noticed is that none of Lucina's aerials auto-cancel. This means that if you use one of her aerials while close to the ground and fast fall before the animation is over, Lucina will have lag when she lands, leaving yourself wide open for a nice (at least for your opponent) and juicy punish. This makes moves like D-air and N-air pretty useless/situational as they have pretty long animations and little reward to offer if you hit them. (Yes I'm aware her D-air can spike but the hitbox to actually spike is so specific that it's not worth the risk.)

However, her F-air, B-air and U-Air all come out pretty quickly. So when I'm approaching with Lucina's F-air or B-air, I wait for the animation to finish before fast falling to the ground and approaching from there. This allows me to attack/try to attack the opponent from the air and land without lag. I'll also F-air then double jump and F-air again or B-air to pressure and mixup the opponent. This is also a good way to combo/start a combo on the opponent. Having a strong air game with Lucina is just as important if not more important than a strong ground game since Lucina's kill potential will leave you with more to desire.

Speaking of Lucina's killing potential, it's pretty inconsistent and predictable. Lucina only has 3 moves that can kill at somewhat early percents that hit consistently. Her F-Smash, U-Smash, and D-Smash. Yes Lucina has more kill moves than that (Charged Shield breaker, Last hit of the forward variant for Dancing Blades, depending on the attack counter, etc.) but F-Smash, U-Smash, and D-Smash are the moves that you will use the most; with the most useful being the F-Smash, and the least useful being D-Smash.

When playing as Lucina it's your job to be as unpredictable as possible while still using Lucina's good combo potential to raise percent as well as positioning yourself or/and your opponent. If 90% of your plan for Lucina is spam F-Smash and counter until bad guy goes boom, then maybe you should take that plan back to the drawing board. Approach with Dancing blades or F-air/B-air or just punish your opponent (Block your opponents attacks then grab them. Lucina's grab range is pretty good so this is a very useful way to change the tide of battle and put your opponent on the defensive) and start racking up that percent. I find the upwards variant of the Dancing Blade is the most useful because it puts the opponent in a favorable position, hits the most consistently and leads to the most damage dealing aerial combos. Don't be afraid to counter either. Counters are great in this game since they have good knockback, can kill and are a good way of making your opponent respect your space. Getting in your opponent's head is a great way to make them overlook Lucina's predictable kill moves. When they've done that, that's when we get to the fun part.

Once your opponent is all hot, steamy 'n bothered. It's time to go in for the kill! Now you just have to use one of those 3 kill moves I was talking about earlier. So you're going to use F-Smash? A classic! If it ain't broken why fix it? Well remember that F-Smash has a great hitbox. You can land this move while the opponent is above you or beside you. This move has great knockback and damage, so it won't take many of these to leave you opponent licking their wounds.
Decided to go for a U-Smash? Good choice! This move is an absolute treat to use. Unlike most moves in this game, Lucina's U-Smash hitbox isn't as noticeable to spot. The hitbox isn't nearly as strict as say Marth's U-Smash hitbox in Melee either. In fact this move has a pretty good horizontal hitbox (please note I said pretty good, it's not broken or anything). This can really catch your opponent off guard and get you some kills that make you feel as mischievous as the Duck Hunt Dog.
Going for a D-Smash? Ehhh you can use it but it's going to take some work.. While D-Smash can kill, it doesn't actually start doing that until your opponent's percent is pretty high and is better used as a punish option for roll happy opponents. I tend to use D-Smash to get the opponent into a unfavorable position before finishing them off by ledge guarding with B-air/F-air or with a F-Smash or U-Smash.

I think that was all I had to say. I hope this is useful for other Lucina players out there! I main Kirby also so who knows? I may post here again with some info about him. Until then :D

It's important to note that if you start dancing blades midair and land while continuing the combo, there's no lag, which makes it a very strong approach option. As for killing potential, a point blank out of shield up B can kill at ~130% if facing away from the stage, and while it leaves you open if you wiff it it comes out instantly which makes it a decent mix up kill option that the enemy wont expect if you haven't been using it except to recover. Shield breaker can also kill at a solid range (you get horizontal momentum if you charge it midair) without even being fully charged (I've gotten a lot of unexpected shield breaker kills when I was just trying to do a poking approach with shield breaker). Finally, I want to mention that I score maybe half of my kills with an upsmash, either out of a broken shield (occasionally, maybe once every two or three matches) or in a sliding dash up smash (a kill at least once per match generally and landing more often then that).

Those add to her on stage kill potential, but really Lucina will likely be getting most of her kills off stage, by chasing with a back air off screen, meteor dairing them down, or hanging off the ledge to counter them when they use their upb to recover to the ledge before they get there (since most up b recovery moves have a damage component it works pretty well).

Also, when you have limited kill moves like Lucina, you want to pick some to save for when you go for the finish so they don't get stale (using a move a lot in a match makes that move knockback less, but the effect wears off as you use other moves). Save your bair for when you chase them off screen and it will net you an outright kill far more often than chasing them away from the ledge with fairs will (your fair will be stale long before it's time to kill, and isn't as strong as bair to begin with).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Lucina does have a decent variety of kill moves on top of her gimping ability, she's not like meta knight who can only really kill with fsmash, a perfect down special, or an upspecial on a juggled enemy and relies on gimping for everything else.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

With Greninja, Shadow Sneak can be very predictable to counter if you pay close attention to the shadow. Block the attack, and you can punish Greninja right back with a grab. Even Counter can punish Shadow Sneak when timed just right.

In terms of handling Shadow Sneak at Pictochat though, if you can't see the shadow, neither can Greninja. This basically means that because you can't see the shadow, Greninja will have a harder time aiming Shadow Sneak, and could actually miss its target.

 

[Xinc]

My notes with Ganondorf are written in my guide as well. Basically, you want to just be baity and tricky as possible. Battlefield also mitigates your slowness.

 

[Locuan]

Anyway one thing I've noticed is that none of Lucina's aerials auto-cancel.

Incorrect:

MOVE | Hitbox | End | Auto Cancel | Landing Lag | DMG1 | Hit Lag | DMG2 | Hit Lag | |
Fair | 6 – 9~ | 37 | 36 | 18 | 7 | 4 | 10 | 10 | |
Uair | 5 – 9~ | 44 | 36 – 38 | 15 | 9 | 4 | 12 | 11 | |
Bair | 7 – 10~ | 39 | 30 | 19 | 9 | 4 | 12 | 11 | |
Nair1 | 6 | 50 | 49 | 15 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 6 | |
Nair2 | 15 | 50 | 49 | 15 | 6 | 4 | 8 | 9 | |
Dair | 9 – 12~ | 59 | - | 28 | 11 | 5 | 13 | 11 | 14 | 9

For example, normal Bair:

Auto-cancelled Bair:

Greninja Edit NOTE: The Fair is not a good example since it does not really auto-cancel (1 frame?).
This occurs through other aerials. For the rest of the gifs click here.

1) No anti-camping tools: Lucina has many options for fighting enemies in short to mid range, but she has no projectile or reflector to camp or fight back against camping.

There are ways around this though. My personal bread and butter is to approach from the air.

Depends on the match-up. Lucina's jabs, Fair, and Ftilt can each cancel out a lot of projectiles. If you are against a camping character just stay in your corner cancelling them out. She cancel out Links arrows and boomerang. She can cancel all but Greninja's charged Shuriken, etc. If you approach through the air against a good opponent, you will get punished. By projectile camping they want you to approach to capitalize. Much like Ryu does his fireball traps in SF.

Speaking of Lucina's killing potential... Lucina only has 3 moves that can kill at somewhat early percents that hit consistently.

She has a lot of options to kill. You are only considering knocking them out with a move against the boundaries. She has a lot of options to kill your opponents on their recoveries. If you can't get them off the stage with a grab or w/e, you can still play the neutral game, footsies etc. rack up damage quick if spaced correctly.

Don't be afraid to counter either.

Do not rely on counter's. Good opponents will capitalize on you using your counter. You should only use in very low numbers. I only use it once or twice a match, when I am sure they will hit.

 

[Dreamer_]

It's important to note that if you start dancing blades midair and land while continuing the combo, there's no lag, which makes it a very strong approach option. As for killing potential, a point blank out of shield up B can kill at ~130% if facing away from the stage, and while it leaves you open if you wiff it it comes out instantly which makes it a decent mix up kill option that the enemy wont expect if you haven't been using it except to recover. Shield breaker can also kill at a solid range (you get horizontal momentum if you charge it midair) without even being fully charged (I've gotten a lot of unexpected shield breaker kills when I was just trying to do a poking approach with shield breaker). Finally, I want to mention that I score maybe half of my kills with an upsmash, either out of a broken shield (occasionally, maybe once every two or three matches) or in a sliding dash up smash (a kill at least once per match generally and landing more often then that).

Those add to her on stage kill potential, but really Lucina will likely be getting most of her kills off stage, by chasing with a back air off screen, meteor dairing them down, or hanging off the ledge to counter them when they use their upb to recover to the ledge before they get there (since most up b recovery moves have a damage component it works pretty well).

Also, when you have limited kill moves like Lucina, you want to pick some to save for when you go for the finish so they don't get stale (using a move a lot in a match makes that move knockback less, but the effect wears off as you use other moves). Save your bair for when you chase them off screen and it will net you an outright kill far more often than chasing them away from the ledge with fairs will (your fair will be stale long before it's time to kill, and isn't as strong as bair to begin with).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that Lucina does have a decent variety of kill moves on top of her gimping ability, she's not like meta knight who can only really kill with fsmash, a perfect down special, or an upspecial on a juggled enemy and relies on gimping for everything else.

Thanks for the reply :]

When I was going over Lucina's kill potential, I was talking about the general usefulness of the moves (How much you can depend on this move through thick and thin; your bread and butter). Now don't think I'm saying everything you said was wrong. But like I said before most of these moves are inconsistent as kill moves. Yes Up-B can kill, but the odds of landing the attack or even killing them are low. Let's not forget that move leaves you wide open for a long time if you whiff. Sure it may look like only 2 or 3 seconds but that's plenty of time for a good player to give you a hearty punish or even worse, leave you with one less stock than you had before going for such a risky move. I do agree that Lucina is pretty good at gimping especially with B-air. I actually haven't thought of approaching from the air with Dancing Blades though. I think that can definitely prove useful if you're using it wisely. Shieldbreaker is also WAY more useful than I gave it credit for. It's good for recovery, it eats shields for breakfast, has good knockback and has solid range. My apologies on that one.

All of her moves have uses. But some moves are more useful than others. When I chose those three moves (F-Smash, U-Smash and D-Smash) as the main three you'll want be using the most, I was looking at multiple factors. The speed/damage/knockback of the attack, how vulnerable the attack leaves you if you whiff, how easy it is to land, and how early you can kill the opponent with said moves ( for example a fully charged F-Smash can kill as early as 80%; with a plain F-Smash knocking the opponent back a far distance to let you gimp). While Lucina has more kill moves than those 3, many of those moves kill at late percents, (at least later percents than the 3 I mentioned), are hard to land, or both. Spiking with D-air isn't easy and as I said before is situational. If you're not directly above/have an extra jump to make yourself go directly above the opponent, you shouldn't be using that move. as you could be using that extra jump and favorable position for a more reliable F-Air/B-air/U-air.

Basically what I'm saying is: If you have the choice between a safe option and a risky one, go for the safe option first. As you learn your enemy's patterns you can then decide if you want to go for that counter or if you feel like giving your opponent that disrespect and D-air spiking them lol. While being unpredictable is important, don't be unpredictable to the point that you feel that you HAVE to do something different. Learn to use your tools effectively. Just because you've only got 3-no 4 moves that kill consistently doesn't mean you can't mix it up. It just means you have to be a bit stricter with your use of those moves at times.

 

[Conda]

Posted this elsewhere:

I understand what you mean - the fear of spending time developing skill and connection with a character, only to have them hard countered or easily dealt with.

I play a lot of Ness and Im still not sure he's safe. Not just due to PKT gimping, but punishing landings which is much easier to do now than in brawl where you could safely airdodge land. DH to recover is a norm for Ness, but there dong seem to be any safe landing options if your opponent is standing by idly waiting to punish with a grab or whatnot.

I think good players should still be able to sandbag Ness, and that keeps me from dedicating myself to him.


-----

I feel us all working to understand matchups is important to improve our knowledge of how reliable certain characters are. A mid tier character may be super reliable with no counters or dominant counter strats, which may be what some players are looking for.

 

[Kidney Thief]

I'd post here but I use Falcon, Marth and Ness and they have all been mentionned. I'd say marth has no trouble getting kills unlike Lucina that's the only difference