Character Discussion Thread

[Kenith]

If I had a say in it, we just wouldn't have Assist Trophies.
I'm sure they could have made at least two characters if they scrapped them all...right?

 

[Burruni]

If I had a say in it, we just wouldn't have Assist Trophies.
I'm sure they could have made at least two characters if they scrapped them all...right?

That is a rift in how you could approach the matter.

Assist Trophies, in model making and attack programming take a chunk of time but not nearly that of a full fighter moveset in complexity of design and balancing it.

It's a great role for characters who, at the time, are seen too minor at the time to be made into a full fighter.

Even if it took around 15 Assist Trophy's amount of work for a single character, we could get 2 maybe 3 characters out of it.

But then there's the fact that a lot of series would have significantly less recognition by having this aspected removed.

 

[ZeldaFan01]

If I had a say in it, we just wouldn't have Assist Trophies.
I'm sure they could have made at least two characters if they scrapped them all...right?

Thank you! ATs are just a tease to us fans and a lot of them are characters that people really wanted to play as. So now some of us are in hopes that at least some of them get the little Mac treatment, but to get them for DLC which I will always support

 

[A Distant Demon]

I mean without assist trophies they wouldnt be visible at all.

if the options are nothing or assist trophy i would rather have the latter.

At least then they get more popularity and the possibilty for getting upgraded little mac style.

 

[Kenith]

That is a rift in how you could approach the matter.
Assist Trophies, in model making and attack programming take a chunk of time but not nearly that of a full fighter moveset in complexity of design and balancing it.
It's a great role for characters who, at the time, are seen too minor at the time to be made into a full fighter.
Even if it took around 15 Assist Trophy's amount of work for a single character, we could get 2 maybe 3 characters out of it.
But then there's the fact that a lot of series would have significantly less recognition by having this aspected removed.

Yeah, but at the same time some series could get more recognition.
I mean a lot of the Assist Trophies are from already represented series anyway...but we could have had Takamaru, for example.

 

[Burruni]

Yeah, but at the same time some series could get more recognition.
I mean a lot of the Assist Trophies are from already represented series anyway...but we could have had Takamaru, for example.

I think Takamaru became an assist trophy because he was a retro character Sakurai liked but "couldn't" make a fighter.
Not that he isn't a fighter because he's an assist trophy.

Edit: To clarify, I believe the vast majority of characters as an Assist Trophy are there because they can't work as fighters or didn't meet the calibur of requirement that Sakurai and the others of his team have mentally set for "unique" newcomers. If she wasn't an assist trophy, we may have gotten Dark Samus as a "alt clone" akin to but I wouldn't use "Well if they weren't an assist trophy" as an argument for someone being in the roster if this was not the case because it is likely that was not their only obstacle.

 

[Deleted member]

If we're going to think of how Sakurai would feel about it, then its pointless because only Sakurai know how he feels about it.

We're arguing a series of hypotheticals on Sakurai's decision. Wouldn't that alone make the argument pointless?

ROB has this kind of thing for his Up B.

I mean something different than R.O.B.'s "use his Up Special for as long as he has fuel". I mean on the order of "activate Flight Mode to fly freely while draining the meter and cancel Flight Mode to slowly recover the meter".
I've brought up a Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee styled energy meter that ties into flight as well as his Kinetic Breath Weapon in the past, and I'm still talking about a similar thing (which many people have brought up in example) solely for flight.

Palutena, Samus, Bowser (more-or-less), Shulk, etc. should at least be tough opponents.

Tough opponents that with the exception of Palutena cannot fly.
And Palutena herself is holding back considerably (ironic when you remember she says she "won't hold back on any of [the many worthy foes]" in her trailer), considering her power is supposed to be on par with Medusa, who required the Sacred Treasures to defeat (in canon; I'm well aware you can replay her boss fight without using them).

Then use DK i guess? Or he still is smaller than Bowser?

DK is technically the tallest character in the game (even in Brawl). However, because of his posture as a gorilla, he seems shorter. Bowser is the "biggest" (or at least he was in Brawl; I don't know if this still holds true in Smash 4 with his height being scaled down to go with his upright posture).

...don't know...but it certainly will have to have similar look (realistic [more like as realistic as a purple space dragon can get], threatening, monstrous).

Not sure realistic is the word to use since there's nothing realistic about any of Ridley's designs.
Though I think I get what you are referring to.

This design, while imposing, has a bit more of a cartoonish vibe with the eyes, the oversized head, pencil-thin neck, etc.

Whereas this design, while laughable in many qualities, has a more "serious" vibe.

It's like the difference between the classic 1954 depiction of Godzilla and the 2014 Legendary Pictures depiction.

A happy medium would probably work best though, considering the overall atmosphere of Smash 4 is on the cartoonish side.
Something like this hybrid design that @SchAlternate made:

Spoiler

At least in my opinion.

There is only one Mewtwo. Both have same backstory and appearance and maybe even attacks (well, he certainly had same moveset in Origins, where he was a very fast guy but on the ground and he doesn't speaks here). So, why its not THAT Mewtwo?
IMO, he is a joke compared to him from games.

.....You didn't see the Genesect movie, did you....?
Aside from that, (ignoring that that most of the continuities have at least 2 of them with the 1st always being the one from 1954) there are several continuities within the Godzilla universe and different versions of the same creature. They aren't literally all the same creature, though. (I swear I did not intend on referencing Godzilla so much when I started on this response)
The same applies to Mewtwo. Different continuities, same creature (with one exception), different versions of said creature (in some cases drastic, such as the wild and savage Mewtwo from the games/Origins vs. the more human-like Mewtwo from the main anime).

Thats f***ing awesome. It actually makes sense. I though he was like going all Superman minus the go-back-into-the-future-by-going-around-the-Earth bulls**t.

So I guess I can say that you expected Superman, but you got Iron Man?


Also, something I completely forgot that's unrelated to the above points I've addressed, one idea for a Smash-exclusive design that would probably cover each of Sakurai's issues in some way that is technically an "official" design would be the unused Ridley-2/Ridley-Z from Zero Mission.

Hell, we could theoretically have both Pyrosphere Ridley and this version of Ridley as playable since it's "Ridley-2/Ridley-Z".

 

[Yomi's Biggest Fan]

I think Takamaru became an assist trophy because he was a retro character Sakurai liked but "couldn't" make a fighter.
Not that he isn't a fighter because he's an assist trophy.

Edit: To clarify, I believe the vast majority of characters as an Assist Trophy are there because they can't work as fighters or didn't meet the calibur of requirement that Sakurai and the others of his team have mentally set for "unique" newcomers. If she wasn't an assist trophy, we may have gotten Dark Samus as a "alt clone" akin to but I wouldn't use "Well if they weren't an assist trophy" as an argument for someone being in the roster if this was not the case because it is likely that was not their only obstacle.

Plus lack of Western familiarity, which was a decision made before the start of the game's development (Before the localization of The Mysterious Murasame Castle would be a thing). The only thing that will really change the situation is if Nintendo already has a sequel in the works and the chances of that being a thing are low.

While certain people may argue Marth and Lucas as going against his statement, these games were already well established franchises and the latter was going to be in Melee at first before Earthbound 64's cancellation. Not to mention Marth pre-Melee at least had more requests than Takamaru at that time anyways.

 

[Pakky]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Mega evolution is not balanced. At all

Well it partially balanced, all non-legendary evolutions are balanced, the legendary ones not so much.
It is actually

Because Squirtle and Ivysaur are still more popular than Roy overall

Then why aren't there sound clips of them instead of Roy?

 

[Pakky]

There's Venusaur on the box art of 3 games as well. Venusaur's line got a second life through May to promote FR/LG alongside Squirtle, but Venusaur managed to be part of May's limited usage in Diamond and Pearl's anime run when even her Blaziken was not. Charizard has gotten more love overall. But you're playing off the other two of the Gen 1 starters as if they don't matter when that is certainly not the case. Frankly the Gen 1 Starts have merits and popularity that often only one if any starters from subsequent gens can rival.

Then again Venusaur isn't Ivysaur so this whole argument is invalid.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

"Ridley's dameged wings limits his ability to fly."

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well it partially balanced, all non-legendary evolutions are balanced, the legendary ones not so much.
It is actually
Then why aren't there sound clips of them instead of Roy?

Beedrill losing a useless stat to become even stronger, Kangaskan being able to use Powerup Punch twice in a row, Gardevoir getting Pixelate Hyper Voice, Salamence getting stupidly high defence, Mawile getting the highest attack in the game, Lucario having too many possible movesets to predict, Metagross Having insanely high Attack AND Tough Claws, Aggron and Steelix getting the highest Defence period.

Because Roy would be easier to work with and if you're making one of the starters playable people will expect the other

Then again Venusaur isn't Ivysaur so this whole argument is invalid.

Then again Roy isn't Marth

 

[Pakky]

Come on, it's just there to have popular poké's evolve another time.

Speaking about that, it's only the fully evolved versions that get MEs, so using them as an argument that a Poké is important is pretty flawed logic.

Fully evolved pokemon tend to be the most popular in a line and the most important overall. How is that logic flawed? Also lol non-popular pokemon mega evolve as well to make them more viable to play with, for example no cares about Glaie, Medicham, Lopunny, Banette, Altaria, Absol, or Abmasnow,yet they got mega evolutions. On top of them Charizard and Mewtwo stand out because they got two.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Fully evolved pokemon tend to be the most popular in a line and the most important overall. How is that logic flawed? Also lol non-popular pokemon mega evolve as well to make them more viable to play with, for example no cares about Glaie, Medicham, Lopunny, Banette, Altaria, Absol, or Abmasnow,yet they got mega evolutions. On top of them Charizard and Mewtwo stand out because they got two.

Banette, Lopunny and Absol are popular, Braixen is the most popular out of the Delphox line, the reason the final stages have megas is to put their power to the max

 

[TKactual]

Fully evolved pokemon tend to be the most popular in a line and the most important overall. How is that logic flawed? Also lol non-popular pokemon mega evolve as well to make them more viable to play with, for example no cares about Glaie, Medicham, Lopunny, Banette, Altaria, Absol, or Abmasnow,yet they got mega evolutions. On top of them Charizard and Mewtwo stand out because they got two.

Absol? Not popular? What planet are you from?

 

[Pakky]

Beedrill losing a useless stat to become even stronger, Kangaskan being able to use Powerup Punch twice in a row, Gardevoir getting Pixelate Hyper Voice, Salamence getting stupidly high defence, Mawile getting the highest attack in the game, Lucario having too many possible movesets to predict, Metagross Having insanely high Attack AND Tough Claws, Aggron and Steelix getting the highest Defence period.

Because Roy would be easier to work with and if you're making one of the starters playable people will expect the other

Then again Roy isn't Marth

So you listen to smogon... because all of that stuff as checks and balances but it will be a pain to list them all. However if you need proof i'll provide it.

That comparison is cute but it doesn't make sense. No, body cares about the middle stages, the only two who get a pass are Pikachu and Braxien. The others don't really matter as a whole nor does the success of their later stages give them anything. In the reverse of what I just said does anyone really care about Raichu? No.. The only reason Ivy and Squirts were in the game was to show the different stages of a starter pokemon and boost the whole trainer motif outside of that well, you see what happened

 

[BaganSmashBros]

We're arguing a series of hypotheticals on Sakurai's decision. Wouldn't that alone make the argument pointless?

True.

I mean something different than R.O.B.'s "use his Up Special for as long as he has fuel". I mean on the order of "activate Flight Mode to fly freely while draining the meter and cancel Flight Mode to slowly recover the meter".
I've brought up a Godzilla: Destroy All Monsters Melee styled energy meter that ties into flight as well as his Kinetic Breath Weapon in the past, and I'm still talking about a similar thing (which many people have brought up in example) solely for flight.

That could work...but it still is same thing outside of not being Up Special.

Tough opponents that with the exception of Palutena cannot fly.
And Palutena herself is holding back considerably (ironic when you remember she says she "won't hold back on any of [the many worthy foes]" in her trailer), considering her power is supposed to be on par with Medusa, who required the Sacred Treasures to defeat (in canon; I'm well aware you can replay her boss fight without using them).

Samus might as well be able to fly in the same way Kirby and co. do (except it requires timing rather than button mashing).

DK is technically the tallest character in the game (even in Brawl). However, because of his posture as a gorilla, he seems shorter. Bowser is the "biggest" (or at least he was in Brawl; I don't know if this still holds true in Smash 4 with his height being scaled down to go with his upright posture).

Ridley isn't standing upright either. Never did actually. So, i guess its better to use DK then.

Not sure realistic is the word to use since there's nothing realistic about any of Ridley's designs.
Though I think I get what you are referring to.

This design, while imposing, has a bit more of a cartoonish vibe with the eyes, the oversized head, pencil-thin neck, etc.

Whereas this design, while laughable in many qualities, has a more "serious" vibe.

It's like the difference between the classic 1954 depiction of Godzilla and the 2014 Legendary Pictures depiction.

A happy medium would probably work best though, considering the overall atmosphere of Smash 4 is on the cartoonish side.
Something like this hybrid design that @SchAlternate made:

Spoiler

At least in my opinion.

Thats why i said "as realistic as a purple space dragon can get".
That one needs to be more "realistic" though (giant head and thin neck being the main problems). While SSB4 is more cartoonish than Melee and Brawl, Other M stuff included still has its...er...serious style.

.....You didn't see the Genesect movie, did you....?
Aside from that, (ignoring that that most of the continuities have at least 2 of them with the 1st always being the one from 1954) there are several continuities within the Godzilla universe and different versions of the same creature. They aren't literally all the same creature, though. (I swear I did not intend on referencing Godzilla so much when I started on this response)
The same applies to Mewtwo. Different continuities, same creature (with one exception), different versions of said creature (in some cases drastic, such as the wild and savage Mewtwo from the games/Origins vs. the more human-like Mewtwo from the main anime).

Nope.
That technically was the same Mewtwo. They created only one of these things. I really doubt this version (which still can levitate freely even without Mega Evolving) is anyhow used though. SSB4 Mewtwo has its appearance, but thats it. Everything else is from the other Mewtwo, including that pretty d*mn awesome voice.

So I guess I can say that you expected Superman, but you got Iron Man?

Yeah, minus the box of scraps thing.

Also, something I completely forgot that's unrelated to the above points I've addressed, one idea for a Smash-exclusive design that would probably cover each of Sakurai's issues in some way that is technically an "official" design would be the unused Ridley-2/Ridley-Z from Zero Mission.
View attachment 50191

Hell, we could theoretically have both Pyrosphere Ridley and this version of Ridley as playable since it's "Ridley-2/Ridley-Z".

It looks rather goofy though.

 

[Pakky]

the reason the final stages have megas is to put their power to the max

.....that's what I just said. How about the others I listed?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So you listen to smogon... because all of that stuff as checks and balances but it will be a pain to list them all. However if you need proof i'll provide it.

That comparison is cute but it doesn't make sense. No, body cares about the middle stages, the only two who get a pass are Pikachu and Braxien. The others don't really matter as a whole nor does the success of their later stages give them anything. In the reverse of what I just said does anyone really care about Raichu? No.. The only reason Ivy and Squirts were in the game was to show the different stages of a starter pokemon and boost the whole trainer motif outside of that well, you see what happened

I don't follow smogon rules, I look at stats, moves and abilities, Raichu is also fairly popular, and here's a hint on why Squirtle and Ivysaur were more requested than potential newcomers in @PushDustIn s poll
THEY. ARE. VETERANS! Mewtwo, highly requested character, why? Because he was a veteran that got cut! Lucas and Wolf? The exact ****ing same! Snake? Likely not happening due to Konami thinking they can stick their **** in a garbage disposer and honestly, I don't get your argument. Even Pichu has support, and lots of people like Squirtle and Ivysaur

 

[Pakky]

Absol? Not popular? What planet are you from?

A competitive one where I didn't see it for miles. I have never heard of Absol being popular anywhere after gen3. He has that one spot in a movie, but after that nothing. Regardless my point stands for the rest of the pokemon I listed and when has Beedrill ever been popular?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

A competitive one where I didn't see it for miles. I have never heard of Absol being popular anywhere after gen3. He has that one spot in a movie, but after that nothing. Regardless my point stands for the rest of the pokemon I listed and when has Beedrill ever been popular?

If you never saw Absol being popular then you're under a rock

.....that's what I just said. How about the others I listed?

You said it's because nobody likes the middle evolutions. Megas are like smash bros characters, you can't just use fan favourites. Ken Sugimori also has to think of designs, which is why Mega Flygon isn't a thing, he couldn't get a good mega design for the poor guy

 

[Pakky]

I don't follow smogon rules, I look at stats, moves and abilities, Raichu is also fairly popular, and here's a hint on why Squirtle and Ivysaur were more requested than potential newcomers in @PushDustIn s poll
THEY. ARE. VETERANS! Mewtwo, highly requested character, why? Because he was a veteran that got cut! Lucas and Wolf? The exact ****ing same! Snake? Likely not happening due to Konami thinking they can stick their **** in a garbage disposer and honestly, I don't get your argument. Even Pichu has support, and lots of people like Squirtle and Ivysaur

Raichu is popular?

Spoiler

Do you know why Mewtwo was in the game in the first place and why he was wanted back, being a veteran isn't the only or the main reason.

Lucas, do you know what mother is?

My argument is that they don't matter to Nintendo, they were either promotional fare that correlated with the series at the time or in the case of Ivy and Squirts they were packaged deal with Charizard.

 

[Burruni]

Only popular Pokemon get Mega Evolutions, it makes perfect sense,

That's why we have ones for Manectric, Lopunny, Altaria, Audino, and Abomnasnow while Flygon, Milotic, Machamp, Hydreigon, and Aegislash don't have them.

 

[Pakky]

If you never saw Absol being popular then you're under a rock

You said it's because nobody likes the middle evolutions. Megas are like smash bros characters, you can't just use fan favourites. Ken Sugimori also has to think of designs, which is why Mega Flygon isn't a thing, he couldn't get a good mega design for the poor guy

I just listed a bunch of unpopular dudes like Abomasnow, what are you talking about? I get that, clearly I do by the list of dudes I just gave you, save for a few that I had no I ideal that were popular.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Raichu is popular?

Spoiler

Do you know why Mewtwo was in the game in the first place and why he was wanted back, being a veteran isn't the only or the main reason.

Lucas, do you know what mother is?

My argument is that they don't matter to Nintendo, they were either promotional fare that correlated with the series at the time or in the case of Ivy and Squirts they were packaged deal with Charizard.

I said Raichu was fairly popular, and people hated Mewtwo before he was cut and wanted him again! Mother? You mean the Japanese exclusive things that are dead with a character in Smash people outside Japan liked? Point is if Squirtle and Ivysaur support is extremely high they'll be put back in

 

[Pakky]

Only popular Pokemon get Mega Evolutions, it makes perfect sense,

That's why we have ones for Manectric, Lopunny, Altaria, Audino, and Abomnasnow while Flygon, Milotic, Machamp, Hydreigon, and Aegislash don't have them.

I just said unpopular dudes get megas did I not?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

I just listed a bunch of unpopular dudes like Abomasnow, what are you talking about? I get that, clearly I do by the list of dudes I just gave you, save for a few that I had no I ideal that were popular.

You said

.....that's what I just said. How about the others I listed?

To my response on why the final stages get evolutions, you said that was just because they were more popular. Chuggaaconroy's favourite pokemon is Wortortle yet you don't see him going "I wish Wortortle got a mega instead of Blastoise"

 

[TKactual]

A competitive one where I didn't see it for miles. I have never heard of Absol being popular anywhere after gen3. He has that one spot in a movie, but after that nothing. Regardless my point stands for the rest of the pokemon I listed and when has Beedrill ever been popular?

Oh so you are from another planet. No wonder Absol isn't popular there, the only thing popular there is Deoxys.

But really if you haven't seen Absol's popularity, as TehEpicRyuga said you've been living under a rock.

 

[Pakky]

Also lol non-popular pokemon mega evolve as well to make them more viable to play with, for example no cares about Glaie, Medicham, Lopunny, Banette, Altaria, Absol, or Abmasnow,yet they got mega evolutions. On top of them Charizard and Mewtwo stand out because they got two.

No I said this....

 

[ZeldaMaster]

By that logic, every series in Smash is related because they all appear in Smash together. Maybe that's true, but what's the point?
If Ashley gets in she's not a Mario character, she's a WarioWare character. If Waluigi gets in, he's a Mario character.

So Shulk is a Mario character and Mario is a Xenoblade character? lol

 

[Pakky]

Oh so you are from another planet. No wonder Absol isn't popular there, the only thing popular there is Deoxys.

That too is an ignorant statement.

 

[Kenith]

Smashified did King K. Rool.

This one almost looks legit. I love it.

EDIT: Okay, my bad. I didn't know Smashified was multiple people now.
This art was by someone else. >.>

 

[Cutie Gwen]

GUYS. ARTSI OMNI DID K.ROOL! LET'S TALK ABOUT HIM
Instead of arguing with someone who thinks a veteran can't return solely on the fact they used to be playable despite Lucas existing

 

[Pakky]

GUYS. ARTSI OMNI DID K.ROOL! LET'S TALK ABOUT HIM
Instead of arguing with someone who thinks a veteran can't return solely on the fact they used to be playable despite Lucas existing

Wow that's immature but okay. Also sorry your comparing a main character of a game to some schmucks that got cut for their fully evolved companion.

 

[TKactual]

That too is an ignorant statement.

Actually that was a joke. I guess you just don't get it, kinda sad. I hope someone got it.

 

[Pakky]

Actually that was a joke. I guess you just don't get it, kinda sad.

No I don't get sarcasm in a medium that lacks tone, sorry.

 

[Burruni]

Artsy Omni did King K. Rool.

This one almost looks legit. I love it.

King K. Rool is honestly one of the top 3 newcomers I see coming out of the Ballot. This image is friggin Krunk and I'm gonna go bother the SSB Roster Maker thread for an icon made of it.

Edit: SOMEONE MADE A REQUEST FOR IT LITERALLY A MINUTE BEFORE I GOT ON THE THREAD

 

[Pakky]

Smashified did King K. Rool.

This one almost looks legit. I love it.

EDIT: Okay, my bad. I didn't know Smashified was multiple people now.
This art was by someone else. >.>

He deserves to be in unlikes some others that got cut....

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Pakky, Lucas is less relevant in the video game industry than my belly button, that's why I'm done with you and put you on ignore for now

 

[Kenith]

He deserves to be in unlikes some others that got cut....

King K. Rool is a cut character?
You learn something new every day.