Character Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

Just like I want to see a doubles tournament won by a Mario & Luigi duo, I want to see a 3v3 tournament won by an Ike, Roy and Marth team up.

 

[A_Kae]

Marth, Ike, Roy, Lucina, Robin

I don't think there is much argument in that regard. The question is what tiers do they actually land in. This is also customs off. Custom on is Ike, Marth, Lucina, Roy, Robin

EDIT: And apparently 2 different lists popped up while I was reading this page with completely different orders. Welp.

Also, to those who were asking about good Ikes before: Rango will be at CEO (Pool 9), and Ryo (Or Ryuga, one of the two) are there as well. So you have a chance to see at least a few of them.

I'm not too familiar with Ike's customs. Are they really that good? I was under the impression that he didn't get much out of them.

 

[Minordeth]

Customs on

=>>>/

I think this also bears out in a customless meta as well. I think I rated Marth higher initially because I understood his buffs better, because I have more experience playing him. Playing Ike is impenetrable to me, because I expect to play him like the other heavies, but he relies on things that san has (thankfully) extrapolated on that I didn't really know how to visualize.

Given his buffs and his ideal play style, I think he and Marth go toe to toe for best FE character. Roy is still a really solid character but I don't see him nearly as safe as Marth or even Ike. He is just all risk, all reward, other than SH Nair.

 

[Mario766]

Ryo is at CEO, Ryuga doesn't leave Michigan, which is one fault of our scene. No one goes out of state.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I plan on it soon, hopefully. I have no idea how busy I will be in the upcoming months. If not, I'll at least try to make some videos to help those players. I tend not to save matches when I play, too.

Ryo from Florida, Ryuga from Michigan, Blitz from Toronto area, Rango from the midwest/near Georgia area, SM on the west coast, me in upstate NY, and Waldo/Red-X in NYC are all that I can think of. We do well locally, but many of us don't tend to branch out. The patch broadened Ike's skill ceiling and well all need to improve as players in many ways as well.

I just watched some videos of ryuga and it was really impressive. I've been thinking about picking up Ike for a while but he seems pretty hard to learn. I'd probably put Ike in the top 20 ATM he might br the best FE character.

 

[Blobface]

Side note: do you think Dedede is low tier because of an incomplete gameplan (a la samus) or having a complete gameplan but just not being strong enough (a la current falco maybe)?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm not too familiar with Ike's customs. Are they really that good? I was under the impression that he didn't get much out of them.

Ike is one of the characters who gets the most out of customs period.

CQC eats/clanks with projectiles, goes through characters and shields, can KO if its hits somebody higher up in the air, pretty much just a straight upgrade to Quick Draw except for the fact you can never act after it in the air

Aether Drive is diagonal aether, which means Ike can recover from what used to be his dead zone, and it also deals more damage. Aether Wave is faster (and thus safer for recovery) and has more super armour upon landing as well as the projectile that makes it hard to punish him for landing on stage.

Furious Eruption is more or less a straight upgrade to Eruption for where Eruption is mostly used. Tempest is the largest windbox in the game, boosts Ike's recovery, and is amazing for gimping recoveries.

Paralyzing Counter can combo into smashes, depending on rage and enemy percents and all of that. Smash Counter, while difficult to land, with the knockback growth buff Ike's counter got is like a miniature Shulk Power Vision and KO insanely early.

Pretty much his only strictly "bad" custom is Unyielding Blade. And that's only because when its used in the air it only gets the super armour while lunging and not when charging (which is what happens when used on the ground).

 

[A_Kae]

Ike is one of the characters who gets the most out of customs period.

CQC eats/clanks with projectiles, goes through characters and shields, can KO if its hits somebody higher up in the air, pretty much just a straight upgrade to Quick Draw except for the fact you can never act after it in the year

Aether Drive is diagonal aether, which means Ike can recover from what used to be his dead zone, and it also deals more damage. Aether Wave is faster (and thus safer for recovery) and has more super armour upon landing as well as the projectile that makes it hard to punish him for landing on stage.

Furious Eruption is more or less a straight upgrade to Eruption for where Eruption is mostly used. Tempest is the largest windbox in the game, boosts Ike's recovery, and is amazing for gimping recoveries.

Paralyzing Counter can combo into smashes, depending on rage and enemy percents and all of that. Smash Counter, while difficult to land, with the knockback growth buff Ike's counter got is like a miniature Shulk Power Vision and KO insanely early.

Pretty much his only strictly "bad" custom is Unyielding Blade. And that's only because when its used in the air it only gets the super armour while lunging and not when charging (which is what happens when used on the ground).

Thanks for the info. I've been meaning to try out Ike for a while, and knowing this about his custom is very helpful.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sheik, Zero Suit Samus and Rosalina are the near-universal gateway to viability characters right now, they're maintaining advantages on nearly all the buffed characters that they previously had, their kits/toolsets and rewards are just that strong.

This is a big part of the reason why I cringe whenever I see Ganon ahead of Charizard on any 1.0.8 customs-off tier list. As much as I love Smash 4 Dorf, he can't really touch Sheik or Rosa at all. Charizard certainly is at a disadvantage in customs off vs. all 3 of these, but it's a much smaller disadvantage vs. Sheik and Rosa and Zero Suit is probably a wash. They're overall fairly similar in strength otherwise, and there are definitely MUs I'd rather play as Ganon, but Zard has the advantage of not really having any unwinnable MUs, and the fact that two of Ganon's are against the two best characters in the game really hurts when comparing him with a lot of other characters on the lower half of the tier list, especially as the gap between top and bottom is slowly shrinking. At least customdorf can threaten anything and everything.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

The fact that there's a debate about which characters are bad is a good sign for Smash 4. We know which characters are good--some a little too good. But objectively bad characters are a lot harder to identify. It's never been this way in a Smash game before, really. We've always at least thought we knew which character or characters were among the worst.

 

[RoyNowBoyNow]

Seems the replies here are far more in line with my assumptions about both Diddy and Roy. Both eventhubs and YT comments are god awful these days. I think zero's premature (not flaming, just can't deny his influence) video on Roy hasn't helped, because he exaggerated and included misinformation which many players have taken as fact when considering Roy's viability. Don't get me wrong, Roy is a good character, but Zero makes every character look better than they are and Roy has some serious flaws. He's an extreme case of high risk high reward.

And yep, people genuinely believe Diddy is terrible. His forward air is still amazing, he's still got his true combo jump cancel kills, banana is banana, etc. The main reason I bring it up is because I've heard it borderline everywhere that Diddy is bad now, but there's been no major changes to my game. Then again, my play style means I almost always use JCBT to forward smash/up tilt, or go for spikes/ledge throw kills, which has paid off as I'm not too severely hindered by the changes.

Regarding fire emblem, I think it goes Ike > Roy/Marth > Lucina > Robin these days.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Side note: do you think Dedede is low tier because of an incomplete gameplan (a la samus) or having a complete gameplan but just not being strong enough (a la current falco maybe)?

The latter, definitely. If he got a couple of minor tweaks to frame data and his Gordos were less volatile, I'd say mid tier in a heartbeat.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Pazx]

Do people genuinely believe Diddy isn't high tier anymore? He lost one option. He's still got insane mix ups, an incredibly abusable item in banana, jump cancel forward smash shenanigans and great mobility. I can't see him dropping too far. I won't be dropping him anytime soon.

I also think Roy's overhyped and I say that as a big fan. He's a lot more punishable than you'd expect and competent players will be able to take advantage of that. His forward smash is admittedly borked but other than that he just seems like an agile swordsman with potential to be high tier, though I'd say he's one of the weaker high tiers. He struggles with projectiles and doesn't like neutral but once he's in he wrecks.

Jump cancel... forward smash?

 

[bc1910]

My Fire Emblem ranking would be:

>= > >>>> >

Ike just seems the scariest overall to me. Excellent power, deceptively fast moves, very serviceable jab, good grab and throw games. Roy is also great, probably just as good, but I think Ike is slightly better considering his customs. They are very close though. And that's probably not a fair point of comparison because Roy doesn't have any customs.

Marth's jab is incredible, he gets a huge amount of mileage out of it, no complex analysis here, he just has a really really really good jab now and it makes him a lot better. There's a bit of a gap between the main 3 and the newcomers now IMO; Lucina will always suffer horribly from being a worse Marth with half the depth, and I think there's just very little reason to use her. However, crucially, she DOES reap the benefits Marth reaped in 1.0.8 and this keeps her above Robin, because she has that fantastic jab as well. Robin is the only FE character who I think has close to unwinnable MUs (Sheik, Rosalina) and whilst I think he is more useful than Lucina in terms of there being little reason to pick her over Marth, she is still the superior character.

 

[FullMoon]

Poor Robin. People just don't have faith in him lol.

 

[Radical Larry]

@ Vincent21 About that whole Vanilla Mac thing, who says that Mac has to use his Jolt Haymaker? He has a fully functioning Slip Counter to aid recovery if above the edge and it connects (because you know how edge-guarding people are).

@ FullMoon Robin has probably the worst mobility in the game, and a projectile game that would make Palutena seem like her goddess self again. And couple in the gimmicky moveset and hard learning curve, Robin might seem not as viable as others.

 

[bc1910]

Poor Robin. People just don't have faith in him lol.

I do think more highly of Robin than most people, I think he's an underrated character and has no place in tIhe bottom tier. However, the fact that (offline) he pretty much loses to Sheik at the character select screen cripples him. Any bozo can pick Sheik, hurl needles and bully him up close, and there's really not much he can do to counter it. His approach is among the worst in the game and Sheik forces everyone to approach whilst being hard to get in on, and Robin's reward when he DOES get in is limited, since he's primarily a zoner.

When you're hard countered by the best character, who's also really popular, it's hard to justify a good tier position even though you have lots of other strengths and solid MUs. I don't not believe in Robin, it's more that I just... believe in Sheik.

 

[RoyNowBoyNow]

Jump cancel... forward smash?

Ugh sorry that's me typing fast and on mobile. I mean jump cancel banana toss into forward smash, so diddy slides far enough that forward smash is guaranteed to connect in time after the trip.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ FullMoon Robin has probably the worst mobility in the game, and a projectile game that would make Palutena seem like her goddess self again. And couple in the gimmicky moveset and hard learning curve, Robin might seem not as viable as others.

What is this? I'm actually AGREEING with Radical Larry.

On a serious note, I want to say that I believe Dr. Mario is actually the worst character in the game. Actual analysis will come hours after this statement due to work, this all I can say atm.

 

[Smog Frog]

is NOT the worst character in the game. worse clone of good character=/=bad character. see:

but if that wasnt what you were going at, has impressive frame data and power, pills, a super strong f3 invincible oos option, and a strong combo game. he issues, sure, but that doesnt warrant worst character in the game. i think either or deserve that title.

 

[Zelder]

Yeah I'd be very interested to hear about how the Good Doctor is the worst character. I think he's definitely lacking, but worst is a tall order while Zelda and Samus are in the game.

 

[Ikes]

Curious, even though it is still early, but how would you guys rank the FE characters from best to worst at the moment? ^-^

=




-snipping this bottom half cause i just read the ike patch notes-
yeah i cant say Ike is better than Roy because Roy is incredibly powerful and quick but I think i can put them equal

 

[LRodC]

I think Roy is a bit overrated. He's really fast and powerful, but he has to be right in your face in order to do any damage. Ike has lesser frame data and is less fast but he can afford to space properly and he has better landing lag/autocancel data. I'm not saying Ike is better or anything, but I think the consensus that Ike is outclassed by Roy is just wrong.

On the same note, I think Marth is underrated, especially after the patches.

I'd probably have the same ranking though to be honest.

 

[Ikes]

I think Roy is a bit overrated. He's really fast and powerful, but he has to be right in your face in order to do any damage. Ike has lesser frame data and is less fast but he can afford to space properly and he has better landing lag/autocancel data. I'm not saying Ike is better or anything, but I think the consensus that Ike is outclassed by Roy is just wrong.

On the same note, I think Marth is underrated, especially after the patches.

its not really even the case that he has to be right in your face, in playing him it feels like the majority of his blade is sweetspotted rather than just the hilt. sure he has to be closer but most rushdown characters have to literally make contact using their own hurtboxes so Roy's a bit luckier in that regard.

 

[A_Kae]

I think Roy is a bit overrated. He's really fast and powerful, but he has to be right in your face in order to do any damage. Ike has lesser frame data and is less fast but he can afford to space properly and he has better landing lag/autocancel data. I'm not saying Ike is better or anything, but I think the consensus that Ike is outclassed by Roy is just wrong.

On the same note, I think Marth is underrated, especially after the patches.

Roy doesn't have to be quite as close as you might think. His entire sword aside from the tip is the strong point, not just the hilt.

F-smash, however, is strongest at the hilt, a bit weaker on the blade, and almost worthless at the tip.

IMO, Marth, Ike, and Roy and all very close tier wise.

 

[Forty4]

Roy doesn't have to be quite as close as you might think. His entire sword aside from the tip is the strong point, not just the hilt.

F-smash, however, is strongest at the hilt, a bit weaker on the blade, and almost worthless at the tip.

IMO, Marth, Ike, and Roy and all very close tier wise.

Has there been any amount of somewhat extensive testing to prove how much of the blade is a sweetspot, or does it just feel like a majority of the blade is strong?

 

[A_Kae]

Has there been any amount of somewhat extensive testing to prove how much of the blade is a sweetspot, or does it just feel like a majority of the blade is strong?

From my own experience the weak spot seems to be about the same size or slightly larger than Marth's strong spot. Haven't done too extensive of testing, but it's definitly the majority of the sword that's strong, aside from f-smash.

When a full data dump of 1.0.8 is available, (rather than the changelog) then we'll be able to say for sure.

Someone else may have done the testing that you're looking for, you may want to check the Roy subforum for that.

 

[NairWizard]

I think Meta Knight was one of the biggest winners of this patch. It may not look like it, but the buffs to jab and f-tilt (and n-air) were game-changers for him.

I've always thought highly of MK in this game; his list of good qualities is just tremendous.

Just as a reminder, this character has:

• KO setups and early KOs with Shuttle Loop (both very important in smash 4)
• Great edgeguarding
• Strong midrange game with dashgrab and dash attack (very important in smash 4)
• The ability to get out of traps for free with Dimensional Cape and multiple jumps (very important in smash 4)
• Juggle traps and punishes that can do as much as 30% damage (hello Mach Tornado)
• Great ground speed, rolls, and hurtbox size
• A lagless, spammable, disjointed kill move in f-smash

The only other character who can claim almost everything on this list is Sheik (Bouncing Fish is possibly not as good as MK's f-smash in terms of safety, but Sheik has Needles to confirm into it anyway, which is even better), though it takes her more time to actually KO if she can't set up into it.

This is a very obviously "top tier" list of advantages. MKs doing really well in tournament results now and then was not a fluke; the character had the tools to blend in with the top tier crowd.

But he did have two important shortcomings that imo kept him out of more consistent results: lack of safe SH aerials and a lack of close-range mixups. While the patch did nothing to address his approach game (he's a punishment-based character like Fox, and most of his options besides dashgrab are vulnerable to shield), it's done wonders for his mixup and close-range game.

Jab's endlag reduction (by a whopping 12 frames) means that it's now worth it to throw out jabs in close range based on the risk:reward. MK's jab does good damage (even better after this patch!); to win exchanges in close range now you can literally just hold A much of the time and come out ahead across multiple instances. Being able to throw out f-tilts gives MK an actual walk-back-and-space option when the opponent is right up in his face (like Mario or Pikachu). MK's frame 3 d-tilt was alright for quick exchanges, but was not much of a spacing tool, because you can't turn around immediately after d-tilts in this game (somehow I didn't know this until recently, but this is a pretty huge deal), so it was vulnerable to roll behind. f-tilt was also vulnerable to roll behind because the IASA on the first hit was a little late; now, though, it's within a great window for turn-around -> grab out of f-tilt1 or shield before the opponent can act out of roll. Plus, since f-tilt has 3 hits, you can mix up ftilt1, ftilt2, and ftilt3 in neutral footsies. Meta Knight players should be feeling much more comfortable in CQC after the patch.

Because of that, he can now actually use his multiple jumps as a mindgame in neutral. Before, if MK was in the air, you could just walk around somewhere below him and wait for him to land; his horizontal aerial mobility is bad, d-air camping is only OK, and his only option out of land is to roll/shield or grab. At best he could hope to bait out an offensive commitment from you and punish with d-air. Not very scary. But now, if MK is in the air, he can land at any time and just hold A or use f-tilt to beat out your response to his landing. In fact, he can even falling n-air sometimes because of the landing lag reduction. So MK's better close range game also makes him scarier in the air.

MK also does very very well against all the buffed sword users, because his fast ground speed + midrange options messes up their spacing. MK has no reason to mind a meta where Ike, Marth, Lucina, etc. are more popular characters (also he's got tons of multihit moves for Ryu, just as an aside, and Mach Tornado is crazy punishment for FADCing at the wrong time).

Overall, I'd say that he's a top tier contender now, if not already fringe top tier. It's hard to imagine MK being better than Sheik, but from Sheik on down it becomes a lot harder to strictly outclass him, at least in a non-customs metagame.

 

[PUK]

Actually MK is not that strong against others sword user. Ike for exemple is not intimidated, and both marth and roy can be scarry.
If very very well is 6:4 at best then yes

 

[Vincent21]

@ Vincent21 About that whole Vanilla Mac thing, who says that Mac has to use his Jolt Haymaker? He has a fully functioning Slip Counter to aid recovery if above the edge and it connects (because you know how edge-guarding people are).

Yeah no I was advocating not using Jolt Haymaker as vanilla Mac, just that instead of using either, it's typically best to Uppercut back. Slip Counter can be used... occasionally, but it comes with a variety of major risks.

First and foremost, if someone reads a slip counter they can do nothing (you sink like a stone in an animation you can't cancel) or they can aim a cross-up uair/nair/move (you counter-attack the opposite direction of the ledge and are 3000% dead now).

One of the bigger issues you run into though is simply that it's not reliable to hit in the air. If you both pass each other but your hitbox doesn't connect because they hit from under/over you, they're typically still in a position to punish your landing. This is a problem with, for example, Falcon throwing uairs after getting a successful throw. You counter, but he's under you, you punch forward in a drawn out animation, and he regrabs you on landing. You have not fixed the situation.

Basically Slip Counter is for making hard reads, and in a disadvantage state you can reliably get about one hard read on someones attempt to close your stock, and then now they're be looking for it. Once they're looking for it, it ceases to be useful. AND BECAUSE Jolt Haymaker is just a crappy, punish-on-reaction move, slip counter doesn't even give you any additional mix-ups!

If Mac's coming in high? He's gunna counter, and if he haymakers instead you can still easily kill him on reaction, or at the very least simply regrab him. If he comes low? He's looking to mix with wall-jump and UpB. He can't counter because he's beneath the stage and he'd die so they know they can safely attempt a stage-spike or other hit and the worse that happens is they eat UpB and return to stage and the neutral.

Like yeah, his recovery has sucked forever and we all know that. Why it does shouldn't be a mystery either. There's no mix-up or mystery to it, except for ARGUABLY just a little, what with having a wall low on some stages, and that comes in addition to the fact that his vertical and horizontal movement are all entirely seperated and he covers poor ground in the air.

Side note: do you think Dedede is low tier because of an incomplete gameplan (a la samus) or having a complete gameplan but just not being strong enough (a la current falco maybe)?

I'm pretty sure that's just untrue for Falco anymore, but ignoring that, I'm pretty sure Dedede is on the incomplete side.

Like he just kinda feels like somewhere along the line the character creators were torn between trying to make him the equivalent or a truly heavy sword character (space control with disjointed hitboxes that was weaker than the real swordsmen, but paid back by high damage and heavy weight giving him a huge margin of error) and a heavy character based on bait and punish (frustrate with projectiles, incite the opponent to come to you, they run into a wall of big bad hitboxes. While DeDeDe would seem easy to chase or juggle, their first intent was probably for heavy weight and good interruption hitboxes like nair to make that a cleverly craft lie) and then he was left unfinished somewhere in the middle.

 

[Ikes]

I can honestly see MK reaching top 10 at this point.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I find it amusing how we think we're ready to make tier lists and stuff and yet we can't even agree on how the fire emblem characters stack up.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Uh, no. Not even close. Meaty disjointed attacks, weight, fall speed (the positives of it), and a few more things keep D3 from being complete garbage.

I'm not implying that Dedede's Gordo Short-throw is his ONLY tool, or the only reason he's viable or something. It's just the most stand-outish to me as both a goofy-good mixup, zone tool, and means to recover high safely. Plus edgeguarding, combo starting, immediate grab/throw follow-ups...

 

[Zelder]

So Fire Emblem tier is dead. Hyrule tier isn't a thing in this game. Overalls tier exists (Mario, Luigi, Wario are all high/top tier characters as of the time of this writing). Are there any other tier clusters in this game?

 

[Ulevo]

The changes to Meta Knight this patch were luxuries. Ito has been dominating in play recently even prior to the patch hitting, and now that he is continuing to dominate, people are likely to associate some of that success to the patch. I personally felt he was top 10 prior to the patch, likely #9 or #10, and I still feel that way now.

Meta Knight's neutral revolves around down tilt, forward smash, down air, dash attack, walking, empty hops and acting like Eddie from Guilty Gear. The buffs to forward tilt and standard attack do not deviate from this in the least. Forward tilt still has very minimal reward for what it can do, and is risky to use, and standard attack is a defensive option that also has edge guarding utility on some recoveries.

But he did have two important shortcomings that imo kept him out of more consistent results: lack of safe SH aerials and a lack of close-range mixups. While the patch did nothing to address his approach game (he's a punishment-based character like Fox, and most of his options besides dashgrab are vulnerable to shield), it's done wonders for his mixup and close-range game.

Jab's endlag reduction (by a whopping 12 frames) means that it's now worth it to throw out jabs in close range based on the risk:reward. MK's jab does good damage (even better after this patch!); to win exchanges in close range now you can literally just hold A much of the time and come out ahead across multiple instances. Being able to throw out f-tilts gives MK an actual walk-back-and-space option when the opponent is right up in his face (like Mario or Pikachu). MK's frame 3 d-tilt was alright for quick exchanges, but was not much of a spacing tool, because you can't turn around immediately after d-tilts in this game (somehow I didn't know this until recently, but this is a pretty huge deal), so it was vulnerable to roll behind. f-tilt was also vulnerable to roll behind because the IASA on the first hit was a little late; now, though, it's within a great window for turn-around -> grab out of f-tilt1 or shield before the opponent can act out of roll. Plus, since f-tilt has 3 hits, you can mix up ftilt1, ftilt2, and ftilt3 in neutral footsies. Meta Knight players should be feeling much more comfortable in CQC after the patch.

Why would you opt to throw out standard attack in close range when the rewards for down tilt trips and dash attack cross ups are higher? Forward smash already covered Meta Knight's option of walking and spacing in neutral. It does 16% uncharged, kills, and has a much better hitbox than forward tilt 1 & 2. I do not know how you believe down tilt leaves you vulnerable to rolls when you can literally react almost immediately after.

I will make an adamant claim. Forward tilt is not a very good move. It is okay; not amazing, not terrible. It has uses. These buffs made the range slightly more reliable if you end the combo, and it gave us a mix up with Shuttle Loop that leads to a combo at around 150% on certain characters. Down tilt and forward smash are substantially better in many ways.

Because of that, he can now actually use his multiple jumps as a mindgame in neutral. Before, if MK was in the air, you could just walk around somewhere below him and wait for him to land; his horizontal aerial mobility is bad, d-air camping is only OK, and his only option out of land is to roll/shield or grab. At best he could hope to bait out an offensive commitment from you and punish with d-air. Not very scary. But now, if MK is in the air, he can land at any time and just hold A or use f-tilt to beat out your response to his landing. In fact, he can even falling n-air sometimes because of the landing lag reduction. So MK's better close range game also makes him scarier in the air.

Meta Knights aerial mobility is not bad. This is a misconception from Brawl. Given that he has a frame four down air, fast fall speed, and a Dimensional Cape that is invincible for a very long time that can be used to mix up your landing, I hardly see how down air camping is only "okay." Falling neutral air is only decent if you feel you can bait out your opponent with a cross up on shield and confuse them. Again, I am not sure why you would opt to fall in to a forward tilt. Standard attack might be okay because of the shield push, but not the best option in many situations.

MK also does very very well against all the buffed sword users, because his fast ground speed + midrange options messes up their spacing. MK has no reason to mind a meta where Ike, Marth, Lucina, etc. are more popular characters (also he's got tons of multihit moves for Ryu, just as an aside, and Mach Tornado is crazy punishment for FADCing at the wrong time).

I feel this is wrong, and sleeping on the Fire Emblem characters is a mistake.

Overall, I'd say that he's a top tier contender now, if not already fringe top tier. It's hard to imagine MK being better than Sheik, but from Sheik on down it becomes a lot harder to strictly outclass him, at least in a non-customs metagame.

Meta Knight is a strong character, but when you compare him to characters like Rosalina, Pikachu, and Zero Suit Samus, you realize that he lacks some of the truly ridiculous things that make the top class.

 

[A_Kae]

I find it amusing how we think we're ready to make tier lists and stuff and yet we can't even agree on how the fire emblem characters stack up.

Hey, we can at least agree that robin is the worst. That's something, right?

But yes, making a clear tier list isn't something that can be done now, especially with more patches. Vague concepts of top/high/mid/low/bottom tier or top-whatever number is the best that can be done, and sometimes not even that.

So Fire Emblem tier is dead. Hyrule tier isn't a thing in this game. Overalls tier exists (Mario, Luigi, Wario are all high/top tier characters as of the time of this writing). Are there any other tier clusters in this game?

Kid Icarus characters are fairly close together, I think. Earthbound as well.

 

[Ulevo]

On a non-Meta Knight related note, Mewtwo play by Mew^2 at Tourney Locater was pretty impressive. He did well against Gyo, Aerolink, Bwett and Denti. He obviously has match up problems but it has changed my perception a little bit. Do people still feel the character is bottom?

 

[warionumbah2]

Ayyyy tyrant dropped the spider monkey for batman.

MK doesn't stomp any FE characters.....besides Robin.

 

[Ulevo]

Ayyyy tyrant dropped the spider monkey for batman.

MK doesn't stomp any FE characters.....besides Robin.

Does this mean we'll lose our running joke soon?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Hey, we can at least agree that robin is the worst. That's something, right?

But yes, making a clear tier list isn't something that can be done now, especially with more patches. Vague concepts of top/high/mid/low/bottom tier or top-whatever number is the best that can be done, and sometimes not even that.



Kid Icarus characters are fairly close together, I think. Earthbound as well.

I think in terms of results Robin is probably the worst but let's be real here. If ZeRo were to randomly post a video claiming Robin is top tier because of his Levin Sword air game and arc fire, people would explore him and he'd have a shot at being rlly good. I think people are writing him off too soon. Everyone always says the limit on tomes hinders him but Levin Sword recharges fast af and gives him a throwable projectile that does 18% and KOs. People are sleeping on that.