Character Competitive Impressions

[NairWizard]

Those numbers don't add up because generally roll is like 30 frames (don't know about Pit's roll in particular). 10 frames to react + 30 frames to roll is 40 frames.

But wow Pit's frame data is insane. Why do I not use this character?

 

[David Viran]

Ok so if you're Pit, and ZSS down smashes, and you realize that in 10 frames because you're Ally, if you're in shield you can roll behind ZSS with 6 frames between your vulnerable period and the time when the hurtbox comes out. If you're out of shield you could dash back to reset to neutral (and maybe fire an arrow off I don't know the exact frames for that) or run forward and dash grab (6 frames), dash attack (7 frames) or as @Lavani just pointed out dsmash (5 frames), which is long enough to reach without moving if you're not on the edge of ZSS's down smash. Or you could YOLO through with Upperdash's super armor.

What I was saying is if you were only looking for grab or attack the zss could dash which would end up being a completly different situation like she could pivot grab or tilt. Maybe reset and just run past.

 

[Ffamran]

Those numbers don't add up because generally roll is like 30 frames (don't know about Pit's roll in particular). 10 frames to react + 30 frames to roll is 40 frames.

But wow Pit's frame data is insane. Why do I not use this character?

Same dealio with Falco's frame data. It's all on how the character plays and their attributes like Falco's frame data is fairly fast, but he's not fast except for walking speed and falling speed. Frame data can sometimes make or break a character, but in some cases, it's not that bad like how Ike's slow, but it makes sense from a gameplay balance perspective because if he was as fast as say, Marth, then it would be insane with him swinging Ragnell like that.

 

[Makorel]

Those numbers don't add up because generally roll is like 30 frames (don't know about Pit's roll in particular). 10 frames to react + 30 frames to roll is 40 frames.

But wow Pit's frame data is insane. Why do I not use this character?

But it's only the first 4 frames that are vulnerable right? Rolling at least gets you out safely, even if you can't punish after it.

What I was saying is if you were only looking for grab or attack the zss could dash which would end up being a completly different situation like she could pivot grab or tilt. Maybe reset and just run past.

The argument I put forth was "Pit can't punish the endlag of ZSS's down smash, but can punish the start up", so the implication is that ZSS has already begun the d-smash animation.

 

[David Viran]

The argument I put forth was "Pit can't punish the endlag of ZSS's down smash, but can punish the start up", so the implication is that ZSS has already begun the d-smash animation.

I know and I was stating that you base the reactions off of there only being two actions when there is three and it changes the reaction times.

 

[Makorel]

I know and I was stating that you base the reactions off of there only being two actions when there is three and it changes the reaction times.

Oh what am I missing?

 

[David Viran]

Oh what am I missing?

Dashing being the third option. If you don't consider it an option than zss can cross you up.

 

[DanGR]

On the topic of reaction time. Back in Brawl I played Olimar and my main practice partner played Zelda for the first year of its release. After that amount of time playing against the same character over and over you tend to learn the character's auditory/visual cues very well. At one point in the game's life, I would just shield nonstop against Zelda at close range because her grab was 11~ frames. You can spotdodge her only way to deal with your shield... on reaction. And I wouldn't even consider my reaction time "good" by professional gaming's standards.

 

[Makorel]

Dashing being the third option. If you don't consider it an option than zss can cross you up.

Ok wow that took a long time for me to parse so I guess I'm more tired than I thought, but I think I understand what you're saying. Looking for 3 things is more intensive than looking for 2 things so realistically you would expect reaction time to be slowed, but I think @ DanGR is right in that if you play against a character for a long enough time you'll know what to look for and can react accordingly.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I feel as though the Hoo Hah hype is causing a lot of Diddys to try to focus too much on getting grabs instead of making the most of Diddy's entire toolkit and taking what's available. M2K lost to Dabuz's Olimar because he was constantly approaching on the ground and fishing for the grab, even though it meant charging right into the teeth of Olimar's defenses. Zero, on the other hand, generally preferred to poke with Fairs and abused other aspects of Diddy's game like Dtilt and banana ledge traps. Once people other than Zero start to implement all of Diddy's tools effectively the filthy monkey shall rule all things will get really scary for anyone trying to take him down.

 

[etecoon]

disregarding other numbers, 16 frames is above average human reaction time, which is probably about 13 frames. Top players have a reaction time of ~10 frames. That's easily reactable. Pit f-smash comes out on something like frame 6, so Ally could consistently f-smash you for this.

edit: apparently it's frame 10, so that won't work.

Twitch reaction time, recognizing the animation is going to take longer than a simple reflex test

That said you're probably right that players like Ally and Zero could react to it specifically

On the topic of reaction time. Back in Brawl I played Olimar and my main practice partner played Zelda for the first year of its release. After that amount of time playing against the same character over and over you tend to learn the character's audio/visual cues very well. At one point in the game's life, I would just shield nonstop against Zelda at close range because her grab was 11~ frames. You can spotdodge her only way to deal with your shield... on reaction. And I wouldn't even consider my reaction time "good" by professional gaming's standards.

11 frames would be a reaction time of 183 milliseconds, which is well above average(supposedly 215 is average according to data from human benchmark but I think a little slower than that, data is skewed because people with good reflexes are going to visit a place like that more + there are people that try to get unrealistically good scores by prediction). I think some top players had done this test way back and 180ms would be in their ballpark actually, M2K was significantly slower than that and he does really well just being smart and technically consistent

 

[DanGR]

@ E etecoon
Keep in mind your auditory reflexes are about ~30ms (on average) faster than your visual ones. Human benchmark only records your visual reflexes. It also doesn't take into account how long it takes your mouse to press down all the way (I don't know exactly how well this compares to a gc controller), or the months of training you can spend towards responding to specific stimuli. (I doubt most people who visit that website train at responding to green light.)

edit: To the mods of this thread, I don't mean to sidetrack the character discussion. I'll stop here.

 

[Tagxy]

This was actually already the case in Brawl too, more or less. And yet Nairo and Otori were the two best MK players. Rain and Edge have better placings than M2K in a tougher region, so burden of proof is on you.

I disagree again. As highly as I've thought of Japan's skill in relation to the US with Brawl, it went hand in hand with how much more effort theyve put into the game (its typical for most comparisons of US-Asian competitive gaming communities). At some point around MLG in Brawl M2K stopped putting in tremendous effort and people caught up to him and surpassed him, and Zero started behind and was very limited on resources for a long time. I think the US-Japan dynamic is still mostly true for smash 4, but M2K (who did start a bit later) and Zero are the exception. Zero moreso, I'd be surprised if anyone were on his level.

Eh, while it looked good, it was by no means untouchable in the way that his Diddy is. Now, you might think he must be an amazing player to play CF at that level despite not putting as much time into him, but if he was playing CF exclusively he likely would have lost in quarterfinals or earlier.

I'm not sure where captain falcon stands in the range of viability, but if falcon isnt considered viable trade it with any of a handful of other strong characters and Zero is still the champion of Apex imo.

Personally I think Zero is about 5% better than anyone else as a player, and Diddy is about 20-25% better than most characters (maybe only 10% vs Sheik, but it's still noticeable).

You'd basically have to have a 25-30% skill advantage to do what he did where he 2-stocked pretty much everyone (and won all of Apex without dropping a single game except for that one where he went Falcon). If you were just, say, 5% better overall, sure you would still win quite a lot but you'd lose some occasionally.

I dont think those percents are reliable. You're going to suggest that players like Zinoto, Tyrant, and Jtails are over 25% worse then the players they lost to and significantly greater then 25% worse then the top 8 players just because they lost with Diddy? Best character or not the results point directly opposite this assessment, many great players who use diddy struggled just like many other players and characters.

 

[Antonykun]

Those numbers don't add up because generally roll is like 30 frames (don't know about Pit's roll in particular). 10 frames to react + 30 frames to roll is 40 frames.

But wow Pit's frame data is insane. Why do I not use this character?

Because Dark Pit is edgier than Pit

 

[Tagxy]

Also I finally got my set up again and was able to really delve into pika more. For the time being Im going radio silent with the character until after the next balance patch (nothing game breaking regardless), but I think pika has some interesting tools that should allow him to fully exploit an underused aspect of his strength.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Somebody mentioned Yoshi's grab game earlier and I'd like to throw in the opinion that Yoshi's neutral B is one of the game's top 5 grabs alongside Wario's bite, Charizard's and Megaman's grab and Falcon's dashgrab.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Was me.
I'm aware of neutral b too, just smash 4 mechanics with grab armor no longer a thing people can hit themselves before they get swallowed. It sucks, but still not saying it isn't gud.

 

[Chaleb]

Your gonna have to explain why you think that.

A lot of others have been putting up good points for me but I'll delve into this a bit.

For one, ZSS's paralyzer has a shorter range than Pit's arrows so Pit can actually punish ZSS for going for it and can actually kinda camp her for a bit. You can even jump into one of her shots and reflect it back with Down B.

I've also had Side-B kill ZSS really early because of her lightweight, maybe around 90% (same for Froward Throw)? It's not hard to get her there when you have a really good dash attack that does 12% and grab combos that do 20%.

 

[David Viran]

A lot of others have been putting up good points for me but I'll delve into this a bit.

For one, ZSS's paralyzer has a shorter range than Pit's arrows so Pit can actually punish ZSS for going for it and can actually kinda camp her for a bit. You can even jump into one of her shots and reflect it back with Down B.

I've also had Side-B kill ZSS really early because of her lightweight, maybe around 90% (same for Froward Throw)? It's not hard to get her there when you have a really good dash attack that does 12% and grab combos that do 20%.

Arrows can't really keep her out because of PS. Doesn't his upper dash require a read and fthrow kill from the ledge mostly. Dash attack is not safe on shield from my understanding and zss also racks up damage very quick and her up b will kill pit earlier than he can kill her.

Edit: just tested ftilt against pit and he could not punish it with his ftilt or dash attack without zss shielding it first.

Edit 2: just tested upper dash on zss and it didn't kill until 130% on FD with DI. And fthrow didn't kill at the ledge at 120% with DI.

 

[Makorel]

Arrows can't really keep her out because of PS. Doesn't his upper dash require a read and fthrow kill from the ledge mostly. Dash attack is not safe on shield from my understanding and zss also racks up damage very quick and her up b will kill pit earlier than he can kill her.

Edit: just tested ftilt against pit and he could not punish it with his ftilt or dash attack without zss shielding it first.

The purpose of arrows isn't to keep them out it's to annoy them into approaching. Paralyzer Shot isn't much of a threat because Pit can punish most of the time if he's within an uncharged shot's range (if you're quick you can clank the shot and still hit ZSS) and a charged shot can be reflected with orbitars. Upperdash does require reads or punishes but super armor makes the timing necessary to land the move quite lenient I feel. Also throw to Up B can be DI'd out of and if it misses that's a big punish and D-smash to Up B can be blocked on reaction.

Where on the shield are you landing ftilt? The place in which ftilt hits a full shield would hit nothing if shield is dropped and the place where ftilt would hit Pit is close enough for Pit to retaliate it looks like. I should also say I tested this by myself so I was finagling two controllers at once.

Edit: Are those upperdash kills with or without rage?

 

[David Viran]

The purpose of arrows isn't to keep them out it's to annoy them into approaching. Paralyzer Shot isn't much of a threat because Pit can punish most of the time if he's within an uncharged shot's range (if you're quick you can clank the shot and still hit ZSS) and a charged shot can be reflected with orbitars. Upperdash does require reads or punishes but super armor makes the timing necessary to land the move quite lenient I feel. Also throw to Up B can be DI'd out of and if it misses that's a big punish and D-smash to Up B can be blocked on reaction.

Where on the shield are you landing ftilt? The place in which ftilt hits a full shield would hit nothing if shield is dropped and the place where ftilt would hit Pit is close enough for Pit to retaliate it looks like. I should also say I tested this by myself so I was finagling two controllers at once.

At far ranges on the paralyzer if you try to reflect it zss can dspecial and get the free kick. Dthrow up b is not normally used any way and if you land dsmash it's a free up b also up b is a God like oos option.

I hit the shield in multiple ways and got the same result. Tbh at first when I tried I got the same result you did but then I switched remotes and have not been able to recreate it.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

This thread is going downhill. How about instead of arguing about what human reaction time is or who wins in every possible situation in ZSS vs Pit, just play the damn game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

On the topic of reaction time. Back in Brawl I played Olimar and my main practice partner played Zelda for the first year of its release. After that amount of time playing against the same character over and over you tend to learn the character's auditory/visual cues very well. At one point in the game's life, I would just shield nonstop against Zelda at close range because her grab was 11~ frames. You can spotdodge her only way to deal with your shield... on reaction. And I wouldn't even consider my reaction time "good" by professional gaming's standards.

This is why the nerf to spotdodge, making its invincibility start up 2 frames later universally is actually extremely huge. It's much harder to reactively spotdodge even the slower grabs in this game.

 

[Makorel]

This thread is going downhill. How about instead of arguing about what human reaction time is or who wins in every possible situation in ZSS vs Pit, just play the damn game.

Sorry I didn't mean to make this a whole big running argument that's better suited to a different thread. I'll drop it now because I agree we're basically just playing a game of "my character can beat your character" at this point.

 

[Radical Larry]

A few 'professional' tips on how to use Link from a man who's reaction time is as low as ~3 frames:

N-Air (Back, Dirty) > F-Smash (after roll) at high percentages will garner either a KO or a decent range as your opponents will be on the ground in Jab Lock and bounce, giving you enough time to react with both hits. If they are too far, JL will not work and you'll likely either send them far with the first hit or miss entirely and they will recover. Use with caution.

His U-Tilt can be just as annoying as Mario's U-Tilt and Sheik's F-Tilt, but also more damaging as it covers more range and has more damage, as well as low knockback growth on low percents. This effectively makes his chain combo useful on the larger characters due to its very wide range in which he does it. It can even lead into a U-Smash or an FF U-Air.

D-Tilt is an instant U-Air hit and is effective at poking shields and dodging with its low frame amount. It also works well with N-air and U-Spec by comboing into either attack.

Talking about U-Spec, there is a chance that using it in the air will actually KO your opponents at a lower percentage on the last hit; I've tested and done it around the 78% range, as the indicator of the KO, the KO Shock, was present and my opponent was sent to the upper blast line quickly. The U-Spec is definitely one of those moves to bait your opponents in the air, and it's surprising on how it will kill on low damages. If on the middle of the stage in the middle of the air, it will KO at around 120%, which may not seem much, but depending on which opponent, it could be lower or higher.

And lastly, make sure to always use the tether button as fast as you can if you grab the edge of the stage with Link's tether, as it will out-prioritize other grabs and make meteors miss most of the time. But the timing is definitely important if you want to make the meteor miss.

With that out of the way, my next post will be quite character specific.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

A few 'professional' tips on how to use Link from a man who's reaction time is as low as ~3 frames:

N-Air (Back, Dirty) > F-Smash (after roll) at high percentages will garner either a KO or a decent range as your opponents will be on the ground in Jab Lock and bounce, giving you enough time to react with both hits. If they are too far, JL will not work and you'll likely either send them far with the first hit or miss entirely and they will recover. Use with caution.

His U-Tilt can be just as annoying as Mario's U-Tilt and Sheik's F-Tilt, but also more damaging as it covers more range and has more damage, as well as low knockback growth on low percents. This effectively makes his chain combo useful on the larger characters due to its very wide range in which he does it. It can even lead into a U-Smash or an FF U-Air.

D-Tilt is an instant U-Air hit and is effective at poking shields and dodging with its low frame amount. It also works well with N-air and U-Spec by comboing into either attack.

Talking about U-Spec, there is a chance that using it in the air will actually KO your opponents at a lower percentage on the last hit; I've tested and done it around the 78% range, as the indicator of the KO, the KO Shock, was present and my opponent was sent to the upper blast line quickly. The U-Spec is definitely one of those moves to bait your opponents in the air, and it's surprising on how it will kill on low damages. If on the middle of the stage in the middle of the air, it will KO at around 120%, which may not seem much, but depending on which opponent, it could be lower or higher.

And lastly, make sure to always use the tether button as fast as you can if you grab the edge of the stage with Link's tether, as it will out-prioritize other grabs and make meteors miss most of the time. But the timing is definitely important if you want to make the meteor miss.

With that out of the way, my next post will be quite character specific.

Does Jab-> D-Smash work? I've been bopped by that a lot but I'm not sure what it's dependent on.

 

[Radical Larry]

Does Jab-> D-Smash work? I've been bopped by that a lot but I'm not sure what it's dependent on.

Yes it does work; I'm actually watching a video right now and saw the same thing you described happening. I've also done this twice in gameplay (I'm going to use it more often), and can confirm it works with Jab 1 > D-Smash on almost any character, except the small floaties.

 

[thehard]

I wanted to lay this out for myself cuz yall were rude and never did.

1. ZeRo
2. XFIRE Dabuz
3. LLL Mr. R
4. 6WX
5. DtN | Nietono
5. MVG | Mew2King
7. Abadango
7. CT | MVD
9. AeroLink
9. LoF NAKAT
9. Nairo
9. VGBC | aMSa
13. Boreal_Ally
13. DA Jtails
13. FALSE
13. NinjaLink

I like this game!!! Wow at MVD and Abadango. I suppose you could be worried about the Diddy Kongs sprinkled in there, but I see several players and character between each of them. What do we think of Olimar in 2nd place...? Such a strange secondary. Good spread overall and a hopeful indication of this game's balance. I'm very happy with it.

Hey! I posted this pages ago! Expect a call from my lawyers.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Yes it does work; I'm actually watching a video right now and saw the same thing you described happening. I've also done this twice in gameplay (I'm going to use it more often), and can confirm it works with Jab 1 > D-Smash on almost any character, except the small floaties.

That's pretty cool! Meanwhile people still complain about Diddy's Hoo-Haas.

 

[A2ZOMG]

That's pretty cool! Meanwhile people still complain about Diddy's Hoo-Haas.

A grab confirm is much much stronger than a Jab confirm for a reason, especially when it's coming from a character with very fast ground mobility.

You should keep in mind, Link's Jab 1 is not a set knockback move. It scales with %, so its combo options are variable.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

A grab confirm is much much stronger than a Jab confirm for a reason, especially when it's coming from a character with very fast ground mobility.

You should keep in mind, Link's Jab 1 is not a set knockback move. It scales with %, so its combo options are variable.

But Diddy's D-throw to U-air can be DI'd, can't it? They're both not guaranteed from what I understand.

 

[A2ZOMG]

But Diddy's D-throw to U-air can be DI'd, can't it? They're both not guaranteed from what I understand.

He also can combo into U-air with U-throw, which can't be DIed.

Furthermore, even if you DI the D-throw, Diddy usually gets a free frametrap setup where you are forced to airdodge, but get hit anyway by a followup F-air.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is why the nerf to spotdodge, making its invincibility start up 2 frames later universally is actually extremely huge. It's much harder to reactively spotdodge even the slower grabs in this game.

Spotdodge is ****ing worthless in this game. They've added like +4 frames of ending lag making it pretty much impossible to ever get a frame advantage when you dodge an attack.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Spotdodge is ****ing worthless in this game. They've added like +4 frames of ending lag making it pretty much impossible to ever get a frame advantage when you dodge an attack.

Yeah after messing with it in friendlies in general I've come to the absolute conclusion that you're only ever going to punish laggy as hell **** or overcommitment, the latter of which is very hard to find at high level play. At which point you'd probably be better by just throwing out a normal that wins in trade or punishing, or hell even rolling.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Spotdodge is ****ing worthless in this game. They've added like +4 frames of ending lag making it pretty much impossible to ever get a frame advantage when you dodge an attack.

It's still an okay option for getting around predicted grabs or really telegraphed moves without sacrificing spacing due to shieldstun. I am however fine with spotdodge being mostly terrible in this game.

Gotta point out, Ally got away with spotdodging pressure from NAKAT and won that tournament before APEX.

 

[HeroMystic]

Spotdodge is pretty much only useful for avoiding grabs, and that's enough for me in my opinion.

 

[19_]

Okay, that Hydro Pump usage was freaking amazing. WHY HAVE I NEVER SEEN THIS BEFORE?! I was even thinking the other day about using Hydro Pump like Fox Illusion and Falco Phantasm to close the distance, but holy crap, this is awesome. So, travel, recovery, gimping, and damage. Talk about an awesome move in the right hands.

I like everyone is surprised how well did at apex when the reality is that aMSa is a monster. This is the man that got 5th in melee by only using Yoshi.

Let that sink in.

I envy Greninja mains for having such a talented person to push their meta. A lot of them don't know how lucky they are.

 

[MartinAW4]

I like everyone is surprised how well did at apex when the reality is that aMSa is a monster. This is the man that got 5th in melee by only using Yoshi.

Let that sink in.

I envy Greninja mains for having such a talented person to push their meta. A lot of them don't know how lucky they are.

Believe me, we do. aMSa is our hero and the most talked about person in our Social and Video threads. We always watch all videos of his gameplay as soon as they come out and try to learn as much as we can from them. We had very high expectations from him before Apex and he actually managed to surpass them. Had he tilted Hydro Pump slightly more upwards in his Little Mac match, he would have made it to the top 8, but a top 16 finish is still way better than what we could have hoped for.

I think this is the best match he`s had so far (and in my opinion the best Greninja match ever posted on youtube) which really shows what he can do with Greninja. And he`s also the first person I`ve seen to use perfect pivots so consistently in a real match in Smash 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhUnn_9KDuA&x-yt-ts=1422503916&x-yt-cl=85027636

 

[Thinkaman]

So, uh.........

Little Mac Rising Uppercut (and Tornado Uppercut) is frame-1 invincible. (Ground and air)

I felt incredibly stupid for not knowing this.

Then I did a forum search and discovered that seemingly no one knew.

How the hell did we not know this?

 

[HeroMystic]

So in other words, Little Mac now has the best OOS option in the game.