Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

Dear lord, that jab finisher reaches as far as Melee Marth's forward smash tippered.
We are too mortal to understand Captain Falcon's power, he is our Lord and Saviour

It reminds me of something where a dude punched so hard, he caused a shockwave through the air or something... I don't remember if this was from a game, an anime, or a cartoon. Well, it's no surprise since Captain Falcon can punch a flaming falcon after all.

So, does Captain Falcon have the longest disjoint with his rapid jab finisher?

 

[A2ZOMG]

See, no. Link's down throw combos at low percents and his back and front throw get his a opponent where he wants them to be at higher percents. Gotta completely disagree with you when you say he wants his opponents really far away. He wants them mid- close mid range. All of his projectiles bar fully charged arrow (which you shouldn't be using anyways on stage) are mid ranged and Link has tippers now so his throws usually get the opponent at that nice distance. I agree that his throws aren't very good but they to give him advantageous positioning.

Link gets Jab out of Dthrow on Fox at 0 and a few tech traps on BF. His Dthrow can't actually combo into anything else, and Link doesn't have the aerial mobility to create good air traps.

Link sucks in midrange and mostly has Jab, bomb toss, and grab in that range. He can't actually do much else in midrange because his tilts and DA are slow. He either wants you to be really close, or far away from him where he either gets reliable Bomb/Jab confirms or space to set up arrow/bomb traps. It's problematic that Link's throws primarily just leave his opponents in midrange, because that's basically the one zone where he isn't a big threat. With Robin's throws which put people in the air forever, at least that would give Link plenty of time to set up arrow/bomb traps. With Ike's F-throw or B-throw or even Mario's F-throw which all have better angles and less ending lag, he would have an actual edgeguard game (his aerials aren't bad for edgeguarding, but his throws have terrible frame advantage and angle). Or heck, even with just Ganon's F-throw, you would actually have a reason to be afraid of shielding against Link. But none of his throws can do even that.

Link's with actually useful throws would be really ****ing scary because it's not actually hard for him to get grabs given it's one of his best midrange options and because his projectile wall does limit approach options. But shielding against Link is retardedly safe as things are right now.

 

[mimgrim]

Could have sworn I had Radical Larrys crazy *** on ignore.

Well... he is radical, after all. I mean its right there in the name.

 

[Ffamran]

Whoa! They have Wario on VGBootCamp! Yes, I know this was from a recent tournment, but still, it's Wario! I don't remember seeing Wario at any tournaments. Random video link of Reflex's Wario vs. Stingers' Diddy Kong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eOfsoz9sZs.

 

[HierophantGreen]

Snake's utilt? Pfft

Spoiler

The air itself bends before his fists.

 

[Conda]

Playing around more with Greninja - hydro pump is underused and powerful. It can be used like G&W's up air, Mario's Fludd, or like quick attack in neutral (risky). You can use it to reposition, or to interrupt and opponent's landing.

It can be used in any angle - to stop someone's approach diagonal from you, above you, beside you, and sometimes even below you. Using it like quick attack - to go one direction and then backward to end up where you started - it a great way to use it. When you use it on the ground to go strictly left/right, you only shoot 1 pump which is great for spacing in neutral. Really great. And it does 2% per blast, so you're getting something out of it. Also, when using it grounded, you get 2 pumps for any other angle - shooting up first lets you use another shot.


Substitute is also underrated. It's a crummy counter for sure and can be reacted to due to how slow it is, but it's a great way to punish projectiles and move around. You can perfect shield, or you can substitute+shoot yourself toward your opponent.

You teleport to the user of the projectile if you use it close enough to them - in MID-range, basically. In this range, there's usually enough endlag with projectile/item use that you'll actually get the substitute hit in. I recommend the upward angled substitute, as it's very safe and you won't have to deal with the ccrappy endlag on the move if you miss.

Outside of mid-range, Greninja attacks the item itself and it's not as useful, so make sure you're in-range. However, if you use it on a projectile outside of mid-range, you can shoot greninja UPward by holding up (also his strongest killing substitute angle) to shoot yourself into the sky to go in for an aerial approach, if you want. Fun.

It's also a good way to escape predictable juggling. Using it as Diddy goes in for his 2nd uair - instead of jumping out or airdodging, use substitute. Unlike most counters, you can aim Greninja's pretty radically. If you hold up, you'll shoot diddy into the air. Not sure how dependable this is yet, but definitely a tool that can only be powerful in the hands of a read-heavy player who is in control of the fight.


Greninja does have poor CQC options, but jab is great as is from-standing-position dash attack for those slightly-out-of-range OOS punishes. His multi-hit is actually really good compared to a lot of multi-hits in the game.

Standing grab is horrible so don't use it, unless you read a spot dodge - Greninja's standing grab has the active frames of a tether grab, so utilize that aspect if you want. I recommend dash grabbing only, though.


TL:DR
Greninja's normals are slow and not that great at all. But he is balanced with his specials in mind - NONE of them are 'icing on the cake' - he relies on each of them to operate properly in battle. If you're not using everything he has, then you're going to be at a disadvantage. He's similar to many specialist characters in this way - jigglypuff, megaman, pacman.

Usually speedsters can rely on shieldgrabs and the like and play normal footsies, but Greninja sucks at this. His footsties overall is super lackluster, which means he has to be played like a trickster. Meaning, you gotta figure out a way to get away with super goofy stuff. But his goofy stuff works. It's just... goofy and risky as butt.

He is at an advantageous position very rarely in battle, but he is disruptive enough and have enough 'wut' options that you have to be VERY aware of what options you have at any moment. He's more unique of a character than I thought at first, and has to be played with dedication to wrap your head around the weird crap you have to do with him. The normal stuff you'd do with other speedsters just doesn't work with him - you'll get nowhere if you don't try to utilize his seemingly lackluster options.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Link gets Jab out of Dthrow on Fox at 0 and a few tech traps on BF. His Dthrow can't actually combo into anything else, and Link doesn't have the aerial mobility to create good air traps.

Link sucks in midrange and mostly has Jab, bomb toss, and grab in that range. He can't actually do much else in midrange because his tilts and DA are slow. He either wants you to be really close, or far away from him where he either gets reliable Bomb/Jab confirms or space to set up arrow/bomb traps. It's problematic that Link's throws primarily just leave his opponents in midrange, because that's basically the one zone where he isn't a big threat. With Robin's throws which put people in the air forever, at least that would give Link plenty of time to set up arrow/bomb traps. With Ike's F-throw or B-throw or even Mario's F-throw which all have better angles and less ending lag, he would have an actual edgeguard game (his aerials aren't bad for edgeguarding, but his throws have terrible frame advantage and angle). Or heck, even with just Ganon's F-throw, you would actually have a reason to be afraid of shielding against Link. But none of his throws can do even that.

Link's with actually useful throws would be really ****ing scary because it's not actually hard for him to get grabs given it's one of his best midrange options and because his projectile wall does limit approach options. But shielding against Link is retardedly safe as things are right now.

I still don't get where you getting link is bad at mid range. He gets jab bomb confirms better at mid range. Maybe I see what you long ranged because of the time it takes link to pull out his bomb but idk. Personally with Link mid range is my favorite spot to be. Grab, zair, his projectiles: all of those moves are performed at mid range and it's necessary to not be that close to link his projectiles to aerials. Also his f tilt is fantastic mid range and its optimal for his d and f smash thanks to his new tipper mechanics. Maybe we have different definitions of what mid range actually is, but time it's the best place to be with link. It's true shielding is really safe vs link. As a main of Link this as frustrated me very much. But I think you're taking it a bit too far saying he has the worst throws in the game

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Playing around more with Greninja - hydro pump is underused and powerful. It can be used like G&W's up air, Mario's Fludd, or like quick attack in neutral (risky). You can use it to reposition, or to interrupt and opponent's landing.

It can be used in any angle - to stop someone's approach diagonal from you, above you, beside you, and sometimes even below you. Using it like quick attack - to go one direction and then backward to end up where you started - it a great way to use it. When you use it on the ground to go strictly left/right, you only shoot 1 pump which is great for spacing in neutral. Really great. And it does 2% per blast, so you're getting something out of it. Also, when using it grounded, you get 2 pumps for any other angle - shooting up first lets you use another shot.


Substitute is also underrated. It's a crummy counter for sure and can be reacted to due to how slow it is, but it's a great way to punish projectiles and move around. You can perfect shield, or you can substitute+shoot yourself toward your opponent.

You teleport to the user of the projectile if you use it close enough to them - in MID-range, basically. In this range, there's usually enough endlag with projectile/item use that you'll actually get the substitute hit in. I recommend the upward angled substitute, as it's very safe and you won't have to deal with the ccrappy endlag on the move if you miss.

Outside of mid-range, Greninja attacks the item itself and it's not as useful, so make sure you're in-range. However, if you use it on a projectile outside of mid-range, you can shoot greninja UPward by holding up (also his strongest killing substitute angle) to shoot yourself into the sky to go in for an aerial approach, if you want. Fun.

It's also a good way to escape predictable juggling. Using it as Diddy goes in for his 2nd uair - instead of jumping out or airdodging, use substitute. Unlike most counters, you can aim Greninja's pretty radically. If you hold up, you'll shoot diddy into the air. Not sure how dependable this is yet, but definitely a tool that can only be powerful in the hands of a read-heavy player who is in control of the fight.


Greninja does have poor CQC options, but jab is great as is from-standing-position dash attack for those slightly-out-of-range OOS punishes. His multi-hit is actually really good compared to a lot of multi-hits in the game.

Standing grab is horrible so don't use it, unless you read a spot dodge - Greninja's standing grab has the active frames of a tether grab, so utilize that aspect if you want. I recommend dash grabbing only, though.

TL:DR
Greninja's normals are slow and not that great at all (at all), but he's balanced with his specials in mind. He has mobility everywhere, and thus you have to use mobility in a defensive way. Which is awkward, because usually speedsters can rely on shieldgrabs and the like and play normal footsies. But Greninja sucks at this. His footsties overall is super lackluster, which means he has to be played like a trickster.

He is at an advantageous position very rarely in battle, but he is disruptive enough and have enough 'wut' options that you have to be VERY aware of what options you have at any moment. He's more unique of a character than I thought at first, and has to be played with dedication to wrap your head around the weird crap you have to do with him, because the normal stuff you'd do with other characters just doesn't work with him and you'll get nowhere if you try and play Greninja like other Smash characters.

lol all these moves are gunna be underrated because greninja is an underrated character.

 

[Locke 06]

Playing around more with Greninja - hydro pump is underused and powerful.
Substitute is also underrated.

Underused and underrated by whom? Certainly not by Greninja players if you bother to go to their character board or watch Greninja videos.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this post in general...

 

[Conda]

Underused and underrated by whom? Certainly not by Greninja players if you bother to go to their character board or watch Greninja videos.

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this post in general...

I'm saying we comment on Greninja by looking at his moveset and claiming that other speedsters are better, just because their normals, KO setups/options, and neutral state is better. But Greninja has a lot of 'weird' aspects to him that, once utilized, makes him make sense as a character. But I feel a lot of people don't understand him yet, nor feel like he makes sense compared to other speedsters.

For example, I hear a lot of people citing the shuriken nerf as a big deal, but his neutral state doesn't revolve around Shuriken. At least, I don't see his optimal play including a lot of shuriken use in neutral. There are other things he can do to approach, and I think his potential lies in those.

Obviously the Greninja boards know what's up w/ Greninja. Each character board is like that. But I haven't seen people here taking Greninja's options seriously, which I feel gives people the impression Greninja isn't any good.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I still don't get where you getting link is bad at mid range. He gets jab bomb confirms better at mid range. Maybe I see what you long ranged because of the time it takes link to pull out his bomb but idk. Personally with Link mid range is my favorite spot to be. Grab, zair, his projectiles: all of those moves are performed at mid range and it's necessary to not be that close to link his projectiles to aerials. Also his f tilt is fantastic mid range and its optimal for his d and f smash thanks to his new tipper mechanics. Maybe we have different definitions of what mid range actually is, but time it's the best place to be with link. It's true shielding is really safe vs link. As a main of Link this as frustrated me very much. But I think you're taking it a bit too far saying he has the worst throws in the game

Let's put it this way. Most characters normally can force you to play carefully around the fact that they often have a dash attack that controls a decent amount of space in midrange. Link is one of the only characters in the game that literally can't do this, UNLESS he's holding a Bomb.

That's why he's awful in midrange. He literally just isn't a threat if you stand outside his Jab range. The only things he can do when you are not in his Jab range are Bomb toss and Grab. Bomb Toss is good, but requires setup (which requires your opponent to be in LONG RANGE most of the time for the Bomb pull to be safe). And Grab while practical is extremely unrewarding, meaning if you simply block outside of Link's Jab range, the risk/reward is very rarely ever in his favor.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm saying we comment on Greninja by looking at his moveset and claiming that other speedsters are better, just because their normals, KO setups/options, and neutral state is better. But Greninja has a lot of 'weird' aspects to him that, once utilized, makes him make sense as a character. But I feel a lot of people don't understand him yet, nor feel like he makes sense compared to other speedsters.

For example, I hear a lot of people citing the shuriken nerf as a big deal, but his neutral state doesn't revolve around Shuriken. At least, I don't see his optimal play including a lot of shuriken use in neutral. There are other things he can do to approach, and I think his potential lies in those.

Obviously the Greninja boards know what's up w/ Greninja. Each character board is like that. But I haven't seen people here taking Greninja's options seriously, which I feel gives people the impression Greninja isn't any good.

Fullmoon and Spirst are the two people I think have done a good job explaining Greninja's options in this thread and done so in a serious matter. I haven't heard that other speedsters have better KO setups. I'd argue that Greninja has the best KO setups out of the speedsters (sourspot Nair>usmash, dtilt>usmash, fully charged shuriken>FAir/running shadow sneak, etc.). Underused seems to be odd word to use when you are referencing a player base that doesn't use Greninja. Underrated, sure I guess, but I feel like undereducated is a more appropriate word. Upwards sub does more knockback than sweetspot usmash. There are gifs floating around of Greninja edge guarding Shulk with it because he can't sweetspot the edge easily... Dirty dirty stuff.

The issue with Greninja's neutral is that his options aren't incredibly safe. Spaced dash attack and falling FAir is about all you've got outside of shurikens. Maybe tipped ftilt, but it is quite slow for an ftilt and not very strong. Hydro pump in neutral isn't quick enough to be like Pikachu's quick attack for approach-like tactics. He thrives off of creating openings to punish with his mobility, but his pressure isn't safe pressure outside of those 3 options. 1.0.3 Greninja could create openings with constant shurikens and follow them up. The shuriken nerf took away that option, which was a large part of his game. Because of the nerf, he can no longer exert safe pressure on his opponents that lead to his punish/combo game.

Note: I only see it from an opponent/teammate perspective (I don't even attempt to try and use him. He's not an easy pick up and play character).

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I'm saying we comment on Greninja by looking at his moveset and claiming that other speedsters are better, just because their normals, KO setups/options, and neutral state is better. But Greninja has a lot of 'weird' aspects to him that, once utilized, makes him make sense as a character. But I feel a lot of people don't understand him yet, nor feel like he makes sense compared to other speedsters.

For example, I hear a lot of people citing the shuriken nerf as a big deal, but his neutral state doesn't revolve around Shuriken. At least, I don't see his optimal play including a lot of shuriken use in neutral. There are other things he can do to approach, and I think his potential lies in those.

Obviously the Greninja boards know what's up w/ Greninja. Each character board is like that. But I haven't seen people here taking Greninja's options seriously, which I feel gives people the impression Greninja isn't any good.

This probably has been said before, but Greninja is underrated cause he doesn't play like other speedsters. When the game first came out I remember a lot of people gravitated towards him cause he's quick and mobile. But after awhile people dropped him because there's another fast and more mobile character on the block who has a better projectile, combos better, and also happens to be a ninja. People started viewing grninja as an inferior sheik, when he's really not like her. ( this has also been said before but I'm just gonna say it again) people really like breaking smash and other fighting games into a science or an equation, and sometimes it work but at time it makes you short sighted. For instance, Greninja has some unique strengths in a lot of strange places especially for a speedster. But many ignore this because he has seemingly some fundamental shortcomings for his archetype.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

lol all these moves are gunna be underrated because greninja is an underrated character.

Greninja sucks not underrated but overrated.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Greninja sucks not underrated but overrated.

have people been overating him? we rarly talk about greninja in this thread. What makes you think he sucks?

like does he have nothing 2 work with?

i know he got hit with the nerf hammer but if anything he was not 2 different anyway.

 

[Ffamran]

Greninja sucks not underrated but overrated.

All right, first off, please, for Pete's sake explain why. Vague comments like this are just... unproductive and a waste of space.

Explain why Greninja is bad. Explain Greninja's issues with say, a predictable, telegraphed kill move like Up Smash, Nair being slow and, therefore, not a good option to escape juggles, slow Fair for killing, Substitute not being reliable, etc.

I know little if at all anything about Greninja, so please, enlighten me.

 

[DanGR]

Let's put it this way. Most characters normally can force you to play carefully around the fact that they often have a dash attack that controls a decent amount of space in midrange. Link is one of the only characters in the game that literally can't do this, UNLESS he's holding a Bomb.

That's why he's awful in midrange. He literally just isn't a threat if you stand outside his Jab range. The only things he can do when you are not in his Jab range are Bomb toss and Grab. Bomb Toss is good, but requires setup (which requires your opponent to be in LONG RANGE most of the time for the Bomb pull to be safe). And Grab while practical is extremely unrewarding, meaning if you simply block outside of Link's Jab range, the risk/reward is very rarely ever in his favor.

Agreed.

It wouldn't be that bad a weakness if Link had better aggressive options. His mid-range weakness is compounded by a primarily defensive game-plan that allow opponents to play somewhat conservatively and wait for openings. On the other hand, with better aggressive options you're more likely to close that mid-range gap on your own whim.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Agreed.

It wouldn't be that bad a weakness if Link had better aggressive options. His mid-range weakness is compounded by a primarily defensive game-plan that allow opponents to play somewhat conservatively and wait for openings. On the other hand, with better aggressive options you're more likely to close that mid-range gap on your own whim.

I mean, actual good throws on Link arguably could break him. It really is his main weakness. The rest of his movepool is fine, probably great honestly. But HIS THROWS MAN.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

Let's put it this way. Most characters normally can force you to play carefully around the fact that they often have a dash attack that controls a decent amount of space in midrange. Link is one of the only characters in the game that literally can't do this, UNLESS he's holding a Bomb.

That's why he's awful in midrange. He literally just isn't a threat if you stand outside his Jab range. The only things he can do when you are not in his Jab range are Bomb toss and Grab. Bomb Toss is good, but requires setup (which requires your opponent to be in LONG RANGE most of the time for the Bomb pull to be safe). And Grab while practical is extremely unrewarding, meaning if you simply block outside of Link's Jab range, the risk/reward is very rarely ever in his favor.

Oh so that's what you meant. Now we're in more of an agreement. Now that I think about it, my game play does involve to the further side away from them to get a bomb out before engaging. I still think you're underrating links grab though. And he's got more options mid range then you're giving him credit for. You're acting as if a link will just allow you to stand there out of his jab he'll completely useless. He's got 3 projectiles, homie. If you're playing Link right the last thing your opponent is gonna wanna do is stand outside of close combat range unless you'll got some flexible projectiles to match his. Link forces approaches. He doesn't have to get himself to that jab range when he make his opponent do it for him with ease. A short hop retreating rang will get to that bomb pull range you're talking about, and once you got that bomb pulled you keep your opponent under spam and hopefully hitstun to close range to apply the damage if you're looking to approach. I still think links throws put them where link wants them to be, but I get what you're talking about.

EDIT: once again Lemme just state, I don't think links throws are good. Not at all, I just don't think they're like the wrist out there. They definitely have their uses

 

[Opana]

I think Sheik will be high tier in the long run, her ability to kill largely relies on gimps from my experience and against someone with even a decent recovery I feel she's in for a hell of a time getting that kill. Now if they can tech state spikes reliably that, in my honest opinion, severely limits her kill options. Top screen kills are rare; pretty much all her kills come from the side blast zones using either Fair, Nair, Bair, Needles, and Bouncing Fish. Fish is the most reliable given the range compared to the other options imo, nair and needles are pretty good at interruption, and fair/bair are alright. I know she destroys in some mus, but some of the more important ones not so much I feel.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

All right, first off, please, for Pete's sake explain why. Vague comments like this are just... unproductive and a waste of space.

Explain why Greninja is bad. Explain Greninja's issues with say, a predictable, telegraphed kill move like Up Smash, Nair being slow and, therefore, not a good option to escape juggles, slow Fair for killing, Substitute not being reliable, etc.

I know little if at all anything about Greninja, so please, enlighten me.

There's that a predictable approach and a poor neutral in my opinion. I don't think very highly of shuriken he has one of the slowest grabs in the game. Bad tilts. An inability to weave out of aerials is a problem. He's a lot of work for some pretty mediocre tools.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I think Sheik will be high tier in the long run, her ability to kill largely relies on gimps from my experience and against someone with even a decent recovery I feel she's in for a hell of a time getting that kill. Now if they can tech state spikes reliably that, in my honest opinion, severely limits her kill options. Top screen kills are rare; pretty much all her kills come from the side blast zones using either Fair, Nair, Bair, Needles, and Bouncing Fish. Fish is the most reliable given the range compared to the other options imo, nair and needles are pretty good at interruption, and fair/bair are alright. I know she destroys in some mus, but some of the more important ones not so much I feel.

Wait were you trying to say she will be or will not be high tier in the long run, cause you said she will be but then the rest of your post contradicted that statement..

 

[Meru.]

Robin might not be a heavy but she sure does have the frame data of one.

Pre-jump is 8 frames. Slowest walker and one of the slowest runners.

I'm assuming the average pre-jump is still 5 frames like in previous games?

 

[Shaya]

Sheik's bair being 4 frames is ridiculous. I think it was 6 or more in Brawl.

The potency of that move keeps her looking extremely strong, especially with it's range being greater than ZSS/Marth, having high kill power (not much weaker than Marth's tipper bair tbh), it frame traps along with bouncing fish (and combos from into this from sour spot bairs), yada yada.

I agree Sheik's kill power is going to stop her from being Diddy-level wrecking, but I think she has three moves competent enough at killing (bouncing fish, bair, illusion) that against just about everyone else she's rarely lacking.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sheik's bair being 4 frames is ridiculous. I think it was 6 or more in Brawl.

Na it was 4 frames still.

 

[Tagxy]

1-4 Frame Aerials:
Diddy: Uair (3)
Falco: Nair (3)
Fox: Nair (4)
Little Mac: Nair (2)
Lucario: Dair (4)
Luigi: Nair (3)
Mario/DMario: Nair (3) ,Uair (4)
MetaKnight: Dair (4)
MiiFighter: Nair (3)
Villager: Nair (3)
Pikachu: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Pit/Dpit: Nair (4)
Megaman: Nair (2)
Sheik: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Yoshi: Nair (3)

 

[Nu~]

1-4 Frame Aerials:
Diddy: Uair (3)
Falco: Nair (3)
Fox: Nair (4)
Little Mac: Nair (2)
Lucario: Dair (4)
Luigi: Nair (3)
Mario/DMario: Nair (3) ,Uair (4)
MetaKnight: Dair (4)
MiiFighter: Nair (3)
Villager: Nair (3)
Pikachu: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Pit/Dpit: Nair (4)
Megaman: Nair (2)
Sheik: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Yoshi: Nair (3)

Pac-Man's nair is 3 frames

 

[meleebrawler]

Sheik's bair being 4 frames is ridiculous. I think it was 6 or more in Brawl.

The potency of that move keeps her looking extremely strong, especially with it's range being greater than ZSS/Marth, having high kill power (not much weaker than Marth's tipper bair tbh), it frame traps along with bouncing fish (and combos from into this from sour spot bairs), yada yada.

I agree Sheik's kill power is going to stop her from being Diddy-level wrecking, but I think she has three moves competent enough at killing (bouncing fish, bair, illusion) that against just about everyone else she's rarely lacking.

If Bairs kill power is so good then how come I only really see people dying
to it from stage spikes? (I recognize it does the job at high percentage and it's speed
can make it frightening, but it still takes quite a while for it to kill unless catching
someone near the edge).

Really, the first two moves you listed only really kill well if they catch people off-stage,
and Vanish is a bit of a gamble, like her smashes.

 

[David Viran]

Sheik's bair being 4 frames is ridiculous. I think it was 6 or more in Brawl.

The potency of that move keeps her looking extremely strong, especially with it's range being greater than ZSS/Marth, having high kill power (not much weaker than Marth's tipper bair tbh), it frame traps along with bouncing fish (and combos from into this from sour spot bairs), yada yada.

I agree Sheik's kill power is going to stop her from being Diddy-level wrecking, but I think she has three moves competent enough at killing (bouncing fish, bair, illusion) that against just about everyone else she's rarely lacking.

Are you sure that sheiks Bair out ranges zss's Bair because I decided to see what it could do when I heard that it was good and it really didn't seem to outrange zss's Bair. Zss's Bair also killed 15% earlier.

 

[Asdioh]

I recently watched that video comparing all of the characters' rolls, and was surprised to learn that Greninja's roll duration and end lag are among the worst in the game, sort of like a mini-version of Samus. It completely changed the way I approach him in neutral, because whereas I used to get spooked by the sheer distance it covered, I'm now aware of how easy it is to escape even if he does the roll to try and punish your attack.

Hey um, where can I find this roll comparison video? I looked on youtube and couldn't find it!
All I know is that Diddy's roll is extremely good for no apparent reason :D

 

[DavemanCozy]

Sheik's U-air and U-smash are also KO options she has. They're not commonly used for that, but regardless she has these moves as options as well to seal the stock

 

[Radical Larry]

Well... he is radical, after all. I mean its right there in the name.

I'm actually being serious here; Ganondorf is at least high tier in this game, if not low high tier, or the top half at the least. While he does suffer from somewhat laggy attacks on a few, which can easily be punished, he also has very fast and powerful attacks as well (U-air and F-tilt are examples). All of his moves can be KO moves (bar custom Neutral 3), even his jab can KO.

While he suffers from a low jump, his attacks compensate for such the occasion. You may think Ganondorf has the worst recovery, when actually, he has a very viable one if you give him Wizard's Dropkick, which trades vertical movement for horizontal movement, and even speeds his recovery up in the process; this allows compensation for bad air speed and recovery.

Lastly, he has the two cheapest tools in his arsenal to guarantee KOs, which are Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke. He also has a decent edge-guarding game with his F-Tilt, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, F-Smash Downward and Wizard's Foot Grounded all being decent edge-guard tools.

I don't know why you guys think he's that bad. He's actually the contrary, and at the least, I could see him in lower high tiers. But to each their own.

 

[MachoCheeze]

1-4 Frame Aerials:
Diddy: Uair (3)
Falco: Nair (3)
Fox: Nair (4)
Little Mac: Nair (2)
Lucario: Dair (4)
Luigi: Nair (3)
Mario/DMario: Nair (3) ,Uair (4)
MetaKnight: Dair (4)
MiiFighter: Nair (3)
Villager: Nair (3)
Pikachu: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Pit/Dpit: Nair (4)
Megaman: Nair (2)
Sheik: Nair (3), Bair (4), Uair (4)
Yoshi: Nair (3)

Pac has a 3 frame nair

 

[Terotrous]

Let's put it this way. Most characters normally can force you to play carefully around the fact that they often have a dash attack that controls a decent amount of space in midrange. Link is one of the only characters in the game that literally can't do this, UNLESS he's holding a Bomb.

It seems to me that the way Link normally fights is to pester you with projectiles (most notably Boomerang, which has limited range, that's what makes him more of a mid-range character), then play footsies with you when you try to approach. Jab, FTilt, and UTilt all seem like quite good moves to me, you certainly can't approach Link recklessly if you don't want to get sliced up.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I'm actually being serious here; Ganondorf is at least high tier in this game, if not low high tier, or the top half at the least. While he does suffer from somewhat laggy attacks on a few, which can easily be punished, he also has very fast and powerful attacks as well (U-air and F-tilt are examples). All of his moves can be KO moves (bar custom Neutral 3), even his jab can KO.

While he suffers from a low jump, his attacks compensate for such the occasion. You may think Ganondorf has the worst recovery, when actually, he has a very viable one if you give him Wizard's Dropkick, which trades vertical movement for horizontal movement, and even speeds his recovery up in the process; this allows compensation for bad air speed and recovery.

Lastly, he has the two cheapest tools in his arsenal to guarantee KOs, which are Wizard's Foot and Flame Choke. He also has a decent edge-guarding game with his F-Tilt, D-Tilt, U-Tilt, F-Smash Downward and Wizard's Foot Grounded all being decent edge-guard tools.

I don't know why you guys think he's that bad. He's actually the contrary, and at the least, I could see him in lower high tiers. But to each their own.

Ok then. If Ganon is high tier, which high tiers does he actually beat? He definitely loses to Diddy, Sheik, Sonic, Pika, Yoshi, Zero Suit, and Rosalina, and probably loses to Ness, Fox, and Luigi. Sheik and Pika are particularly nasty, definitely worse than any high tier's worst MUs. The only good characters he arguably beats are Mario and Lucario. I don't see how a MU spread like that could allow for anything higher than mid tier.

 

[Spinosaurus]

1-4 Frame Aerials:

Wario has a frame 4 NAir.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik's U-air and U-smash are also KO options she has. They're not commonly used for that, but regardless she has these moves as options as well to seal the stock

At ike 130%+ fresh.

Also all of sheiks aerial frame data is the same from brawl (except uair is laggier)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Ganondorf seems like the brawl DeDeDe of this game. bar chain grabs of death. I feel like he does well against loads of non-top tier characters, which places him in the mid tier range-ish. He looks like another one of those counterpick characters that you don't want to pick when you're picking first, since he has the potential to get wrecked by some characters, you feel?

 

[Radical Larry]

Ganondorf seems like the brawl DeDeDe of this game. bar chain grabs of death. I feel like he does well against loads of non-top tier characters, which places him in the mid tier range-ish. He looks like another one of those counterpick characters that you don't want to pick when you're picking first, since he has the potential to get wrecked by some characters, you feel?

That's one way to put it. He's low high/high middle at the least, and I never said he's among the top 15 characters in the game (that would go to Diddy, Rosalina, Sheik, Marth, Lucina, Link, Falcon, Fox, Ness, Greninja, Pikachu, Bowser, Toon Link, Yoshi and ZSS, in no particular order).

I know he's bad against high tier characters and even top tiers especially, but what I'm trying to get at (and what I should have said instead), is that Ganondorf is a good, viable character, with some flaws, but not too much. He's not at all a bad character.

And also, @ Terotrous , coming from a Link player, that is halfway true, as yes, it does happen, but not all of the time. We can actually go for the air and get you from there, especially with D-Air > U-Air being a combo. But you are right about playing it safe against Link, since he can get you to high damage quickly.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's KO options are far better than most speedsters, KOing is rarely an issue. Especially when you consider he can just fall back on Up Throw. His issue is the way his moveset revolves around precision and specifics, leading to poor neutral.

The shuriken nerf isn't being overstated, it basically allowed him to be threatening in neutral and get away with risky offence that he can't now. They were the thing that tied his moveset together, really.