Character Competitive Impressions

[Kofu]

Sakurai clearly didn't want to scrap and redesign a character who has fought this way for 3 games already, no matter how justified a rework would be.

Mario doesn't use powerups in his moveset. He doesn't use the cape or Racoon tail to recover, he doesn't shoot ice balls, he doesn't use the tanooki tail to attack foes, etc. This is because he was designed with the n64 in mind, and also with Smash's mechanics in mind. It's the same for MANY characters in Smash. Megaman is a product of a more modern and deliberately-nostalgic character design, and thus has more of his in-game moves in his smash moveset. He breaks a lot of conventions, but he would not be unique if there weren't those conventions in place.

Sakurai decided that projectiles belong as specials, not normals - Samus having all of her projectiles as normal attacks would make megaman (and villager) less of the unique characters they are supposed to be. Agree or disagree.

The way Samus fights is wholly unique and something you can't just throw away, even if a more Samus-y Samus would make sense. If she had ice beam and other stuff as part of her A-attack moveset in smash 64, she'd be way too projectile focused for that game. It wasn't until Megaman/Villager/etc that having projectiles as part of your normal moveset was normal. But updating Samus to fit in with this design change wouldn't work, as she already has her own established moveset.

One could also justify that there's no reason why Samus doesn't use more melee combat in her own games, wearing a suit of armor and all. Thus her Smash moveset is arguably just 'different', but not 'wrong'. Yeah, she doesn't have superspeed or roll crawl or ice beams or anything, but she still feels like a powersuit fighter with strong projectile game.

Plus, there's way more from her own games in her moveset than other characters have from their own games. Heck, it wasn't until Smash 4 that DK got the only actual attack he had in his Donkey Kong Country games - his dash attack roll. The rest of him is pretty much made up by Sakurai.

She's just a unique take on the character. Like it or not, Sakurai wasn't ready to toss the unique envisioning of Samus in the trash just to make her use ice beam and such.

In general I'm okay with her normals (except jab) but I'm more disappointed in her custom move selection. They could have added a lot more of her traditional moveset that way but they didn't. Your Mario point is valid as well, though. Sakurai has shown that he's willing to change bits of a character's moveset before, and in fact he's done it in this game, most notably with Bowser, but Link, DK, and Dedede all received overhauls. Why keep Samus with a design that honestly doesn't flow as well as most when you're changing multiple moves?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Plus, there's way more from her own games in her moveset than other characters have from their own games. Heck, it wasn't until Smash 4 that DK got the only actual attack he had in his Donkey Kong Country games - his dash attack roll. The rest of him is pretty much made up by Sakurai.

Not that it disproves your point or anything but Down B.

 

[Ffamran]

Sakurai clearly didn't want to scrap and redesign a character who has fought this way for 3 games already, no matter how justified a rework would be.

Mario doesn't use powerups in his moveset. He doesn't use the cape or Racoon tail to recover, he doesn't shoot ice balls, he doesn't use the tanooki tail to attack foes, etc. This is because he was designed with the n64 in mind, and also with Smash's mechanics in mind. It's the same for MANY characters in Smash. Megaman is a product of a more modern and deliberately-nostalgic character design, and thus has more of his in-game moves in his smash moveset. He breaks a lot of conventions, but he would not be unique if there weren't those conventions in place.

Sakurai decided that projectiles belong as specials, not normals - Samus having all of her projectiles as normal attacks would make megaman (and villager) less of the unique characters they are supposed to be. Agree or disagree.

The way Samus fights is wholly unique and something you can't just throw away, even if a more Samus-y Samus would make sense. If she had ice beam and other stuff as part of her A-attack moveset in smash 64, she'd be way too projectile focused for that game. It wasn't until Megaman/Villager/etc that having projectiles as part of your normal moveset was normal. But updating Samus to fit in with this design change wouldn't work, as she already has her own established moveset.

One could also justify that there's no reason why Samus doesn't use more melee combat in her own games, wearing a suit of armor and all. Thus her Smash moveset is arguably just 'different', but not 'wrong'. Yeah, she doesn't have superspeed or roll crawl or ice beams or anything, but she still feels like a powersuit fighter with strong projectile game.

Plus, there's way more from her own games in her moveset than other characters have from their own games. Heck, it wasn't until Smash 4 that DK got the only actual attack he had in his Donkey Kong Country games - his dash attack roll. The rest of him is pretty much made up by Sakurai.

She's just a unique take on the character. Like it or not, Sakurai wasn't ready to toss the unique envisioning of Samus in the trash just to make her use ice beam and such.

I meant more like how her Beam customs are just a property change and a random custom - the Melee shot things. Why couldn't she have an Ice Beam custom, a Ice Missile custom, or a something rather than property changes? Some characters have awesome customs that reference their games like how Sonic has that one fire roll from Sonic Adventure 2?, but others just have property changes when it should be more different like Link not having his Ice Arrows, a Great Spin Attack, or a walking bomb from Twilight Princess.

However, Ice Missiles could work as a special that only freezes people after say, 60%, but otherwise functions the same as regular missiles. Like her Super Missile, she could have Power Bombs as a "power" Down Special.

I will stand by that Morph Ball should be a crawl and it's not like it changes a huge part of her like making her Up Smash into a wheel kick or making her Jab into her shooting.

I never said anything was wrong about her move set. It's just there's things should have been like customs making use of her arsenal in Metroid or Morph Ball not being her crawl. Samus primarily uses ranged weapons, but as Other M showed, she's dangerous up close as well.

Captain Falcon's move set was entirely made up, but it still flows with his characteristics of being a fast racer, his Falcon symbolism, and how a muscular, athletic, and bounty hunter guy like him would be capable of martial art feats.

Meanwhile, Ganondorf's sword victory poses lead people to believe he was conceptualized as a swordsman, but was made into a clone due to time constraints. That's one character that I argue could get an overhaul even if it's slight like making more moves like in Zelda such as Down Smash being a fist slam which might already be in place with his Fair, giving him Dead Man's Volley for his neutral Special, Side Smash being Warlock Punch, or something like making more of his moves look less like Captain Falcon's like making his Bair look a bit different, but functionally similar. Drastically, he could be a swordsman which people want because of those leftovers. If they never showed up, I don't think people would be this upset because there would no "evidence" of him using a sword. Warlock Blade even angers people since some feel it's like a big middle finger to them.

Ganondorf is a powerful, hand-to-hand combatant that nobody is like. The only "equivalent" would be Bowser, but Bowser's like a wrestler now who's fast on his feet, but slow and powerful with his attacks while Ganondorf's attacks tend to come out quick and powerful. Then you add people saying, well, Ganondorf's a speed demon in Twilight Princess. Well, if he was like that, then he'd be a broken character who makes Little Macs on For Glory looks like wimps. Imagine a bullet train about to hit you, that's what Ganondorf would be if he could move like that. Well, he's not, he's more like a regular train about to hit you.

 

[meleebrawler]

You'd think a famous, dangerous, and seasoned bounty hunter would know how to punch correctly, but nooo...

When your right fist is a cannon with unlimited ammo,
I don't think learning how to clobber things efficiently
with it is high on the priority list. Especially when said
things are hazardous aliens that often have things like
spikes or fire on their bodies.

Regarding custom beams... I don't how most of them
could work well without massive overhauls.

Ice Beam: Obvious freezing. Unfortunately, freezing kind of sucks in Smash.
Wave Beam: This goes through walls. How many stages can
this even be taken advantage of?
Plasma Beam: Obvious piercing. Now, this beam is usually the most
powerful one in the Metroid games, so how to implement it and do it
justice? There's either the standard "piercing but weaker" variant ever
present in most customs, or keep it at the same or higher power and
give it a LONG charging time (Remember me?).

About the tip with Lucario's aura going higher than 2.5...
I think it may be referring to the "losing game" mechanic that
was in Brawl.

 

[Ffamran]

When your right fist is a cannon with unlimited ammo,
I don't think learning how to clobber things efficiently
with it is high on the priority list. Especially when said
things are hazardous aliens that often have things like
spikes or fire on their bodies.

Regarding custom beams... I don't how most of them
could work well without massive overhauls.

Ice Beam: Obvious freezing. Unfortunately, freezing kind of sucks in Smash.
Wave Beam: This goes through walls. How many stages can
this even be taken advantage of?
Plasma Beam: Obvious piercing. Now, this beam is usually the most
powerful one in the Metroid games, so how to implement it and do it
justice? There's either the standard "piercing but weaker" variant ever
present in most customs, or keep it at the same or higher power and
give it a LONG charging time (Remember me?).

About the tip with Lucario's aura going higher than 2.5...
I think it may be referring to the "losing game" mechanic that
was in Brawl.

Once again: not on topic to the subject topic... thing...

Still, knowing how to deal with up close combat would be beneficial especially since her Arm Cannon works more through energy, she could lock someone and melt their heads off. If she was grabbed, then her Arm Cannon might be useless if it's being restrained. Assuming shotguns still exist and how her Side Smash works, if she throws a hook, straight, or uppercut, it's going to be much worse than getting hit by Little Mac's punches.

Going off of Prime mostly:
Ice Beam would freeze as you said, but it could travel shorter, and could arc; Wave Beam would have electrical properties like in Prime instead of going through walls which doesn't do much in SSB, and Plasma Beam would have fire properties and would a smaller hitbox like a "fat" laser similar to Fox's and Falco's Blaster lasers.

Even those slight changes are cooler than a Dense Charge Shot or the Melee Charge Shot.

Edit: Brawl had a "losing mechanic'?

 

[Conda]

Samus Jab rant ahead:

Yes, but Samus's Jab combo is only, I repeat ONLY two hits with Jab 1 being 3% and Jab 2 being, I don't remember clearly, 8%. If she's missing the whole combo, that's 50% of the combo and only 3% of the total 11% which is about 25% of the total damage. Also, her Jab combo is so easy to interrupt it's not funny. To make it worse, her victory animation of - boxing terms here - jab, jab, and a straight with her Arm Cannon looks and is probably an even better Jab combo and it's a freaking victory animation! You'd think a famous, dangerous, and seasoned bounty hunter would know how to punch correctly, but nooo...

Falco's Jab combo is easy to get out after he starts spinning, but he can still land or bait with his final swing. So, that's 75% of the combo still usable and 75% is a passing grade compared to Samus's failure of a 50% of which she only has to land 2 hits while Falco has to land 4 total with one being a continuous attack.

Also, doesn't Lucario at least get the benefit of aura later on making up for his Jab combo whiffing? Heck, the knockback of his and probably Robin's makes up for not comboing unlike Samus's. You'd think a freaking metal fist from a superwoman would send you reeling, but nope!

Oh, and at least Meta Knight's Jab combo has a decent hit box if and he hits you, you're going to stay for a while unlike Samus's Jab combo...

Just uploaded a Samus tips&tricks video. She's more capable than the current meta shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ww-X2NJj4

 

[Ffamran]

Just uploaded a Samus tips&tricks video. She's more capable than the current meta shows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8ww-X2NJj4

But I never said she was bad... Never mind...

Anyway, why is the current meta so focused on like 10 characters?

 

[Conda]

But I never said she was bad... Never mind...

Anyway, why is the current meta so focused on like 10 characters?

I was agreeing with you, as you're one of the few posters who has noticed that she is at least capable of SOME things.

The meta isn't focused on 10 characters. Rather, 10 characters are getting much faster metagame progression than others. It sucks, but I guess that's what happens with such a large cast of fighters haha. Hopefully the other characters catch up, or else we'll be stuck with great characters having their potential be unrealised for a long time.

 

[meleebrawler]

Still, knowing how to deal with up close combat would be beneficial especially since her Arm Cannon works more through energy, she could lock someone and melt their heads off. If she was grabbed, then her Arm Cannon might be useless if it's being restrained. Assuming shotguns still exist and how her Side Smash works, if she throws a hook, straight, or uppercut, it's going to be much worse than getting hit by Little Mac's punches.

Going off of Prime mostly:
Ice Beam would freeze as you said, but it could travel shorter, and could arc; Wave Beam would have electrical properties like in Prime instead of going through walls which doesn't do much in SSB, and Plasma Beam would have fire properties and would a smaller hitbox like a "fat" laser similar to Fox's and Falco's Blaster lasers.

Even those slight changes are cooler than a Dense Charge Shot or the Melee Charge Shot.

Somewhere in Other M records (instruction book maybe?)
she says she prefers to keep a distance from her enemies
due to the firepower she has, but isn't afraid of engaging close
combat when necessary.

In that game, close combat is relegated to self-defense
(kicking Zebesians in the face), finishing off weakened enemies
(Lethal Strike with point-blank charged shot), and jumping
on some enemies (Overblast).

Somehow I feel that people want different
customs because they would be more aesthetically pleasing
than actually creative moves. Melee Charge Shot is basically
Plasma Beam without the fire (although I guess you had more range
in mind), default beam is already electric like the Wave Beam and
dense kind of has the slowness of Prime Ice Beam, only instead of
a lousy freeze effect it's even more powerful.

Having different elements would be cool, but nothing more.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Samus is pretty decent. I don't know if she hits even mid tier but she's playable. I think she's probably just outside bottom 10? Probably still best to invest in a secondary or two.

 

[Ffamran]

I was agreeing with you, as you're one of the few posters who has noticed that she is at least capable of SOME things.

The meta isn't focused on 10 characters. Rather, 10 characters are getting much faster metagame progression than others. It sucks, but I guess that's what happens with such a large cast of fighters haha. Hopefully the other characters catch up, or else we'll be stuck with great characters having their potential be unrealised for a long time.

The other issue is that I don't see a lot of people from the character forums on here. I don't remember seeing any of the users from the Falco section here and they've even commented on how that recent Falco players in tournaments were playing like Melee or Brawl - the commentators for videos even mention that sometimes - and how they weren't using more Fairs off stage or Utilt, Dtilt, etc. Well, we're not going to know unless those tourny players figure it out and show it off or someone mentions it. The lack of info destroys a lot of things about characters. For Samus, I only know of IsmaR who comments on Samus.

This also leads to issues where a commentator mentions so-and-so is being slept on and that there's potential. Well, usually, that character loses because of the lack of MU info and such and then you have tons of people concluding that so-and-so sucks and is low-tier trash. I've seen WFT used once against a Bowser. Didn't go so well, but that was the only WFT I ever saw on VGBootCamp. Peach is awesome and she's been like this since Melee, her debut, but I rarely see her. Same thing with Pikachu who someone mentioned yesterday was great, but there's like few Pikachus.

Heck, there's stuff like this not being posted here to be analyzed: Little Mac pulling some DMC-type pseudo-jump cancelling. Holy hell, Little Mac actually can fight in the air even if it's situational. How would this impact Little Mac despite how situational it is? Even this slight and wacky combo could give Little Mac a huge advantage or it might not.

I'm by no means a competitive or even a good player. I just like learning and giving info. That also means I enjoy being corrected because that means I get to learn something like what a DACUS is.

Somewhere in Other M records (instruction book maybe?)
she says she prefers to keep a distance from her enemies
due to the firepower she has, but isn't afraid of engaging close
combat when necessary.

In that game, close combat is relegated to self-defense
(kicking Zebesians in the face), finishing off weakened enemies
(Lethal Strike with point-blank charged shot), and jumping
on some enemies (Overblast).

Somehow I feel that people want different
customs because they would be more aesthetically pleasing
than actually creative moves. Melee Charge Shot is basically
Plasma Beam without the fire (although I guess you had more range
in mind), default beam is already electric like the Wave Beam and
dense kind of has the slowness of Prime Ice Beam, only instead of
a lousy freeze effect it's even more powerful.

Having different elements would be cool, but nothing more.

At least they're different elements instead of just property changes... Melee Charge Shot isn't like Plasma Beam. In a way, it would function more like Wolf's Blaster than a whatever Melee Charge Shot is. My idea for Ice Beam would make it more similar Mii Gunner's Grenade Launcher except it's more focused on freezing and I forgot to add that it could sorta work like Diddy's Banana Peel. Maybe it wouldn't trip people, but it could remove all traction. Wave Beam is the only issue since it could function as a piercing-chaining, electric version of Charge Shot which is all right... I think it had a homing effect so it could be like a "electric Missile".

 

[Smog Frog]

muh top 10:
has practically no unsafe moves(dair doesnt exist to a good sheik), probably the best projectile in the game, and can get early offstage kills
lol dthrow->uair and ******** monkey flip mixups
another great projectile, stupid air mobility, easy to land kill moves, super armor DJ
3fast5me, ignores neutral for the most part, incredibly rewarding mixups for such a fast character
fast, great projectile, godlike offstage game, upb trap escapes
1IP, fast, great damage racking, lol offstage heli
fast like sanic, jumps high, great recovery, stupid follow ups off of down throw
easiest time killing out of all the top tiers, stupid good air game, and amazing pressure game
huge sword, monando arts(either sanic speed, ganon damage, ganon power, bowser weight, or falco jumps)
fast(but not like sanic), combos easy into kill move, and hard to kill off the top for his weight

i mean i'm new at this and this is probably wrong but this is from what i've experienced and seen

 

[Luco]

I honestly don't understand Sheik's and Diddy's character design. As we know, characters are designed to be as balanced as possible... and not just simply for 1v1's, but also taking into account 4-player battles. The fact that 4-player battles are taken into account means that faster characters should have a competitive advantage in 1v1's. So that's one thing to keep in mind.

But still... what exactly are their weaknesses supposed to be? The only thing about Sheik that is even conceivably a weakness is the lack of kill power. But her kill power isn't that weak... and to make up for this, she gets super fast start times and no lag on nearly all of her moves, an amazing projectile, a god-tier recovery, incredible aerial mobility that is enhanced by bouncing fish, and an amazing move that is completely safe on shield (bouncing fish)?

Diddy... has absurd mobility *and* KO power, can avoid being juggled in the air because of monkey flip (as Sheik can avoid being juggled because of bouncing fish), an absurdly good grab game, a command grab that can be changed into an attack, two projectiles to play with, and his weakness is supposed to be, what exactly? The fact that his recovery can be gimped? Please. Yes, he can be gimped, but many other characters have much worse recoveries than Diddy, both in terms of range and how they easily they are gimped, and they don't come close to possessing Diddy's strengths.

There are other characters in this game who are really good, but even the good ones at least have some obvious flaws. But with Sheik and Diddy, I really don't understand what Sakurai and the balance team were thinking.

I can't speak for Diddy, but I'll talk about Sheik here.

Sheik I think was intended to have her kill power be a bigger issue than it became. It was meant to be that she had ridiculous combos and frame data but the trick in her was finding the kill. The issue is, so many characters struggle to land kills that she can often get the kill before the opponent takes her out. This weakness IS a big deal against some characters, notably the other top tiers who usually have good ways to secure their kill moves, and also ones who get crazy buffed by rage (Ness Bthrow on rage will kill her sooooo early hahahaha); but most characters in the cast haven't had this mindset given to their design and suffer from more weaknesses/more exploitable weaknesses than Sheik.

It makes sense to me that they thought most of the characters would be balanced (Diddy should have been an average damage-dealing character who had some combos and good stage control but could be edge-guarded... then Dthrow Uair came into the equation; Sonic should have had awesome mobility in exchange for a tough time killing, but this proved to be too overpowering as he could really get in your face without too many consequences and lead into his kill moves quite well, I think he's also the next big 'kill throw' character if I'm not mistaken; Ness should have had an average or below average ground game to compensate for an awesome air game, with weaknesses offstage that can still put the opponent into a compromising position... it turns out Bthrow is the most reliable kill move in the game and his combos and dominating aerials were just way too much; etc.) but it also makes sense to me that as competitive players we've been finding ways to work with character strengths that may not at first be glaringly obvious. Even having an idea of competitive balance as the namco team would have, it can still be hard to predict exactly what characters will come out on top and by just how much.

Off topic, but can we talk about Donkey K? I've heard multiple times on this thread that's he's "unquestionably viable". But why is that? Other than Will is extremely good with him (like... really good) I haven't heard many other points regarding his viability.

I'm wondering what people here think of Donkey Kong? DK Will took 2nd in a tournament not too long ago, using pretty much only DK (I think he used Shiek for one match). He had some pretty good sets against Sonics, Diddys and the like, that makes me think that DK has the right tools to deal with traditionally fast characters.

Here's his set against Mew2King:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5tTSRg2DOQ&list=TLIpwVLqD4G08

Donkey Kong without customs is definitely mid tier, he's a standard heavy-weight that has a fantastic Bair and good kill moves but is susceptible to strings and combos.

Donkey Kong WITH customs? My god... I don't even. Wind box punch is really weird and can have massive implications for some characters, but even more terrifying is the windbox upB which just screws up everyone and everything. I had the pleasure (actually it was a pleasure because the guy is so freakin nice) of going up against one such DK in bracket and later in grand finals yesterday and that move is janky as hell, and turns DK's game around on its head. The traditional mindset against a heavy is to get them into the air where they are prone to juggles and continuing your advantage, but this upB completely stops all of that and forces you to play the ground game on DK's terms, which by no means are to be slept on. DK's ground slap has ridiculous start-up and cooldown and breaks shields faster than you can ask whether K.K. is a reference to Koji Kondo (as was being said by the commentators when the shield break happened). His grabs might not be life threatening but they can put you in the worst positions. His Uair is crazy powerful and kills so early, he has plenty of options against someone on the ledge... I seriously don't even. Did I mention this character's windbox upB puts everything up the creek? What is the downside of this move meant to be!? It seems to recover better than the original, keeps its super armour on the sides and kills just fine! @.@ I got sucked into it at one point, AD-ed at the wrong time and got spat out suddenly all the way below the stage. No PK Thunder was gonna save me there. XD

In case anyone's interested, here is the GF set. Ignore the title ("top 8 melee") and go to 4 hours, 46 minutes 20 seconds. http://www.twitch.tv/sydneysmash/b/606442425

It was a very fun set though ahahah. =P

 

[Shaya]

My list of threatening characters ("power level estimation")



"Harder":

Cusp:

Cusp characters have obvious strengths, but they could very well be in the lower regions of the game. They just have shown they have certain strengths/capabilities that can really make them scary in tournament.
The harder characters seem to be able to do it, but there really isn't many examples of it yet or a consistent feeling on how or where these characters are (especially post-patch).
The other 15 characters are those I feel I need to learn the match ups for as they're excessively dangerous. Heck they're all characters I feel I should learn and seem to have qualities + consistency that can be used to win tournaments, dominate match ups or both. I feel as if none of these characters would have a match up worse than 40:60 outside of the top "best characters". Rosa, Sheik, Pika, Diddy and Ness I feel are the most polarising within their compatriots; Rosa may not be top 5 though.

 

[Empty Number]

My list of threatening characters ("power level estimation")



"Harder":

Cusp:

Cusp characters have obvious strengths, but they could very well be in the lower regions of the game. They just have shown they have certain strengths/capabilities that can really make them scary in tournament.
The harder characters seem to be able to do it, but there really isn't many examples of it yet or a consistent feeling on how or where these characters are (especially post-patch).
The other 15 characters are those I feel I need to learn the match ups for as they're excessively dangerous. Heck they're all characters I feel I should learn and seem to have qualities + consistency that can be used to win tournaments, dominate match ups or both. I feel as if none of these characters would have a match up worse than 40:60 outside of the top "best characters". Rosa, Sheik, Pika, Diddy and Ness I feel are the most polarising within their compatriots; Rosa may not be top 5 though.

Olimar. Interesting. Care to explain further?

 

[Shaya]

Olimar on WiiU is just really solid.
The way pikmin pluck works now can be used to great effect.
Double Purple Olimar or other certain single pikmin olimar is STUPIDLY amazing! :D

He's now more fighter-centric than the pure long range zoner seen in Brawl (although that's still a major part of his game).
Better normals and more consistent results with pikmin attacks (fair, uair, fsmash) to accentuate their strengths in practically all situations.
Any grab sub 50% is a 20% combo. Has a lot of similar linking abilities for reliable damage racking.

Baller recovery (not the best, but practically ungimpable).

 

[Deathcarter]

My list of threatening characters ("power level estimation")



"Harder":

Cusp:

Cusp characters have obvious strengths, but they could very well be in the lower regions of the game. They just have shown they have certain strengths/capabilities that can really make them scary in tournament.
The harder characters seem to be able to do it, but there really isn't many examples of it yet or a consistent feeling on how or where these characters are (especially post-patch).
The other 15 characters are those I feel I need to learn the match ups for as they're excessively dangerous. Heck they're all characters I feel I should learn and seem to have qualities + consistency that can be used to win tournaments, dominate match ups or both. I feel as if none of these characters would have a match up worse than 40:60 outside of the top "best characters". Rosa, Sheik, Pika, Diddy and Ness I feel are the most polarising within their compatriots; Rosa may not be top 5 though.

I'm curious as to why you put Brawler the "cusp" category. The general mindset seems to be that Brawler is very potent if underutilized.

 

[Shaya]

I'm curious as to why you put Brawler the "cusp" category. The general mindset seems to be that Brawler is very potent if underutilized.

Exactly. "Potent [but] underutilized"
Godlike aerial mobility, great damage, kill power up the wazoo.

The range, ground mobility and recovery seem too easily abused from what I've seen personally. Generally feels like a light weight too.

*Apex 2015 1111 Standard Mii-A

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Does Olimar have any actual tournament results to pack up your idea that he's a lock in for top 15? Because frankly I ain't buying it. I still ain't buying Mario or Luigi top 15 either but that's a whole other story.

 

[Antonykun]

so I just found out that all Mii's have to be Guest A and 1111 instead of 2222 or 3333.
I cried just a little bit at how badly those poor guys got gimped.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Exactly. "Potent [but] underutilized"
Godlike aerial mobility, great damage, kill power up the wazoo.

The range, ground mobility and recovery seem too easily abused from what I've seen personally. Generally feels like a light weight too.

*Apex 2015 1111 Standard Mii-A

Weight, power, and Speed depends on the size that you make your mii.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Why just the 1111 Mii when 2222 and 3333 are also accessible?

2222 seems very potent as it has Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump. Neutral B doesn't matter ad they all sorta are.... Meh. You do lose out on the side B, but the Up and Down Bs are great.

Edit: wait is that off now?

Whaaaaa

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Why just the 1111 Mii when 2222 and 3333 are also accessible?

2222 seems very potent as it has Helicopter Kick and Feint Jump. Neutral B doesn't matter ad they all sorta are.... Meh. You do lose out on the side B, but the Up and Down Bs are great.

Edit: wait is that off now?

Whaaaaa

Apex: continuing to disappoint even harder and harder.

 

[irokex13]

Alright, starting to get a little disgusted by how this thread is going. I would assume that a lot of people come here to get some sort of representation of how a character performs (you know, an outside opinion from their character boards). While this thread started off honest with talking about the potential of each character, it started to degenerate once tiers started being discussed. Now, I know that a tier list for this game will eventually be made and while there's no time like the present, there seem to be too many biases for/against certain characters to get anything close to an accurate tier list.

For example, I know Shaya is an excellent poster here on the forums and knows A TON of info about this game, but why are you putting Olimar top 15? This character has seen little to no representation and has achieved little to no results. You're placing him based on the fact that he might have the tools to be threatening, but we haven't seen anything yet that would suggest that he's a threat.

I'm sorry, I know you guys have established Pikachu as some super god tier, top 5 character, but how many people actually use Pikachu? How many representatives does he have that produce results? Generally you start to put characters top 5 after they start dominating multiple tournaments and have more than one notable representative. I'm not saying Pikachu is bad, but it seems like one person was like "PIKACHU IS GUD" and everyone just agreed on him. And it's not just Pikachu, either. Mii Brawler, Luigi, Peach, Wario, all of these characters are just stated to have the potential to be amazing, but we haven't seen anything or enough to truly justify a position of top/high tier.

Meanwhile, you have characters that have actually won tournaments and have strong results and they just get pushed to the side. Robin has shown to be a character that has very deadly tools, but is seen as some mediocre character despite his/her ability to fight all characters effectively. Lucario has to be one of the most fear inducing characters in the game, with a fantastic recovery, outrageous kill potential, and strong results in tournaments, but apparently he has "no range" and that's enough to write him off.

I'm not saying don't talk about characters that appear to have good potential to be good. Just don't insta hype them up to be some sort of hidden top tier material because all that does is confuse newcomers and can lead to disappointment if that character does not have the ability to produce strong enough results, like Bowser or Little Mac.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Alright, starting to get a little disgusted by how this thread is going. I would assume that a lot of people come here to get some sort of representation of how a character performs (you know, an outside opinion from their character boards). While this thread started off honest with talking about the potential of each character, it started to degenerate once tiers started being discussed. Now, I know that a tier list for this game will eventually be made and while there's no time like the present, there seem to be too many biases for/against certain characters to get anything close to an accurate tier list.

For example, I know Shaya is an excellent poster here on the forums and knows A TON of info about this game, but why are you putting Olimar top 15? This character has seen little to no representation and has achieved little to no results. You're placing him based on the fact that he might have the tools to be threatening, but we haven't seen anything yet that would suggest that he's a threat.

I'm sorry, I know you guys have established Pikachu as some super god tier, top 5 character, but how many people actually use Pikachu? How many representatives does he have that produce results? Generally you start to put characters top 5 after they start dominating multiple tournaments and have more than one notable representative. I'm not saying Pikachu is bad, but it seems like one person was like "PIKACHU IS GUD" and everyone just agreed on him. And it's not just Pikachu, either. Mii Brawler, Luigi, Peach, Wario, all of these characters are just stated to have the potential to be amazing, but we haven't seen anything or enough to truly justify a position of top/high tier.

Meanwhile, you have characters that have actually won tournaments and have strong results and they just get pushed to the side. Robin has shown to be a character that has very deadly tools, but is seen as some mediocre character despite his/her ability to fight all characters effectively. Lucario has to be one of the most fear inducing characters in the game, with a fantastic recovery, outrageous kill potential, and strong results in tournaments, but apparently he has "no range" and that's enough to write him off.

I'm not saying don't talk about characters that appear to have good potential to be good. Just don't insta hype them up to be some sort of hidden top tier material because all that does is confuse newcomers and can lead to disappointment if that character does not have the ability to produce strong enough results, like Bowser or Little Mac.

Your wrong about wario. Gluttony and Pongos have placed top 2 with him at 2 French majors. Also a Japanese wario is consistently placing top 8 his name is Yukke(sp?). He is placing high no one in America might be using him. Watch the gluttony and Pongos matches they barely lose to Leon's ZSS and that's a 6-4 mu in ZSS favor. Wario is strong my friend.

 

[Asdioh]

When the results discussion comes up, I often think of it like this: what if all the competitive Brawl players agreed to "soft ban" Metaknight in tournaments? Basically, if essentially nobody ever played MK, would he still be the best character in the game?
I understand wanting to base character opinions partially on results, but it makes sense to talk about what they can potentially do, even if there aren't a ton in tourneys right now, especially this early on. Besides, if you only hype up the characters that are already winning, won't that encourage players to only pick those ones, leading to less variety?

Anyway, even without a ton of players/results, I can easily see the potential of Pikachu, for example.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's funny that shaya put Olimar in top 15 and dabuz just scrapped adhd with him. Focus less on results and look at the tools.

@ Shaya that's a nice list but I disagree with tbe placement of robin shulk and greninja those characters are bad.

 

[Shaya]

Olimar is showing work in multiple regions consistently *cough florida*
and top 5? results in large tournaments in Tristate and Pacific West.



Oh and even today, if you are paying attention to tournament streams, Olimar has shown up in top 8 in both SoCal and Tristate (dabuz in GF with Oli/Rosa?). There is/was a japanese tournament happening too, and nietono has Olimar usage in top 8 matches in previous weeks.

Pika is literally the whisper character amongst every top player I'm in contact with/eavesdropping on. People are starting to put Diddy as third and aren't sure who's better between Sheik and Pika. This isn't just one or two top-ish players, but rather a growing consensus. I would stipulate that while Pika seems to beat Diddy in the match up, the rest of the cast will probably be preferring fighting Pika still, and that'll have to remain until flavour of the month pika starts, and even then, nothing is going to be better than Dtilt + dash grab the Kongquest Tour until a patch or a while longer into the meta (where potential losses to Pika and Sheik [and others?] will start to cement themselves)

 

[|RK|]

You need both results and potential discussions in order to make accurate tier lists. But I figure everyone here gets that.

I just want a little more diversity in the discussion, personally. Anyone want to talk about Zelda? I get that the Zelda boards are super down on her, but I recall Nairo doing really well with her when the game was released.

 

[JWrecks]

Alright, starting to get a little disgusted by how this thread is going. I would assume that a lot of people come here to get some sort of representation of how a character performs (you know, an outside opinion from their character boards). While this thread started off honest with talking about the potential of each character, it started to degenerate once tiers started being discussed. Now, I know that a tier list for this game will eventually be made and while there's no time like the present, there seem to be too many biases for/against certain characters to get anything close to an accurate tier list.

For example, I know Shaya is an excellent poster here on the forums and knows A TON of info about this game, but why are you putting Olimar top 15? This character has seen little to no representation and has achieved little to no results. You're placing him based on the fact that he might have the tools to be threatening, but we haven't seen anything yet that would suggest that he's a threat.

I'm sorry, I know you guys have established Pikachu as some super god tier, top 5 character, but how many people actually use Pikachu? How many representatives does he have that produce results? Generally you start to put characters top 5 after they start dominating multiple tournaments and have more than one notable representative. I'm not saying Pikachu is bad, but it seems like one person was like "PIKACHU IS GUD" and everyone just agreed on him. And it's not just Pikachu, either. Mii Brawler, Luigi, Peach, Wario, all of these characters are just stated to have the potential to be amazing, but we haven't seen anything or enough to truly justify a position of top/high tier.

Meanwhile, you have characters that have actually won tournaments and have strong results and they just get pushed to the side. Robin has shown to be a character that has very deadly tools, but is seen as some mediocre character despite his/her ability to fight all characters effectively. Lucario has to be one of the most fear inducing characters in the game, with a fantastic recovery, outrageous kill potential, and strong results in tournaments, but apparently he has "no range" and that's enough to write him off.

I'm not saying don't talk about characters that appear to have good potential to be good. Just don't insta hype them up to be some sort of hidden top tier material because all that does is confuse newcomers and can lead to disappointment if that character does not have the ability to produce strong enough results, like Bowser or Little Mac.

Tourney results are going to factor into tier lists but they're never the end all be all statistic used, the biggest thing is when a character is played optimally what it does against the rest of the cast played optimally. Tourney results and character representation are the easiest thing to see but they only tell a small part of the picture.

Lucario is a strong character but he has a lot of weaknesses that most of the strong characters can really exploit him, he is absolutely a subpar character until aura kicks in and that's a serious problem.

Robin is ok but the awful move speed is going to keep him from being truly dominant, he has one of the strongest edge guard games but a lot of his tourney wins were good players picking him up early in the games life cycle to try out a new character.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It's funny that shaya put Olimar in top 15 and dabuz just scrapped adhd with him. Focus less on results and look at the tools.

@ Shaya that's a nice list but I disagree with tbe placement of shulk and greninja those characters are bad.

Tier lists are both results and moveset/match ups for a reason. Results validate the theorycrafting behind the match ups and how good a character's moveset pool really is. I believe Marth in Brawl has been used as an example before: theorycrafting and moveset pool suggested he should be a bit (read: a few spots) lower due to being basically an inferior MK but tournament results kept him where he was. You need both, not one or the other, in a tier list. Or even when just trying to group characters into rough placements outside of the first 4-6 weeks of a game being out.

 

[mimgrim]

Using results as a way to figure out characters' relative strengths and weaknesses and where they place is just as dangerous as using theory. The meta-game is also still in it's early stages and results of these early tourneys and stuff will eventually show once it becomes more stable. There are a lot of possible, probable, reasons. Robin for example is seeing a lot of success currently because he does good against players who try to rush him down and go super aggro, which a lot of people are trying to do in this early-meta game. However if people were to slow down a bit and play the MU a bit more patiently Robin's weaknesses become way more apparent.

Basically, everything is relative.

 

[Conda]

Alright, starting to get a little disgusted by how this thread is going. I would assume that a lot of people come here to get some sort of representation of how a character performs (you know, an outside opinion from their character boards). While this thread started off honest with talking about the potential of each character, it started to degenerate once tiers started being discussed. Now, I know that a tier list for this game will eventually be made and while there's no time like the present, there seem to be too many biases for/against certain characters to get anything close to an accurate tier list.

For example, I know Shaya is an excellent poster here on the forums and knows A TON of info about this game, but why are you putting Olimar top 15? This character has seen little to no representation and has achieved little to no results. You're placing him based on the fact that he might have the tools to be threatening, but we haven't seen anything yet that would suggest that he's a threat.

I'm sorry, I know you guys have established Pikachu as some super god tier, top 5 character, but how many people actually use Pikachu? How many representatives does he have that produce results? Generally you start to put characters top 5 after they start dominating multiple tournaments and have more than one notable representative. I'm not saying Pikachu is bad, but it seems like one person was like "PIKACHU IS GUD" and everyone just agreed on him. And it's not just Pikachu, either. Mii Brawler, Luigi, Peach, Wario, all of these characters are just stated to have the potential to be amazing, but we haven't seen anything or enough to truly justify a position of top/high tier.

Meanwhile, you have characters that have actually won tournaments and have strong results and they just get pushed to the side. Robin has shown to be a character that has very deadly tools, but is seen as some mediocre character despite his/her ability to fight all characters effectively. Lucario has to be one of the most fear inducing characters in the game, with a fantastic recovery, outrageous kill potential, and strong results in tournaments, but apparently he has "no range" and that's enough to write him off.

I'm not saying don't talk about characters that appear to have good potential to be good. Just don't insta hype them up to be some sort of hidden top tier material because all that does is confuse newcomers and can lead to disappointment if that character does not have the ability to produce strong enough results, like Bowser or Little Mac.

The problem is that there's no problem - this is a character impressions thread, not a tier list thread. They are not making tier lists - this is not a group tier-list-discerning thread - they are giving their impressions on characters.

 

[RWB]

Alright, starting to get a little disgusted by how this thread is going. I would assume that a lot of people come here to get some sort of representation of how a character performs (you know, an outside opinion from their character boards). While this thread started off honest with talking about the potential of each character, it started to degenerate once tiers started being discussed. Now, I know that a tier list for this game will eventually be made and while there's no time like the present, there seem to be too many biases for/against certain characters to get anything close to an accurate tier list.

For example, I know Shaya is an excellent poster here on the forums and knows A TON of info about this game, but why are you putting Olimar top 15? This character has seen little to no representation and has achieved little to no results. You're placing him based on the fact that he might have the tools to be threatening, but we haven't seen anything yet that would suggest that he's a threat.

DaBuz, after losing twice to ADHD with Rosa, switched to Olimar and took down ADHD's Diddy thrice in a row, one of them a 2 stock.

 

[Shaya]

And while Robin had a lot of results, the two US mains I'm aware of (Nairo and Xzax) have dropped them.
Nairo for more Pit focus + ZSS in the last 2 weeks, and Xzax is now on Diddy.

We're lucky to have had some characters get a lot of 'screen time' early to give a solid idea of where they actually are at. Robin is obviously a good character with great numbers on their tools, but has pretty solid deficiencies that people are becoming aware of. The Diddy/Sheik match ups are extremely debilitating to their viability, where otherwise they're fine against a lot of good characters still.

"Good" Results -> Bubble Pops have existed for a lot of characters thus far already (IMO):


Bowser - thanks to 3DS stuff and early hype
Duck Hunt - took a while for people to learn his new tools/abuse his struggle to kill. Was really popular in the first weeks.
Greninja - "balanced"
Little Mac - "balanced" + "loses to half the cast but beats the other half =/= top tier"
Lucario - "balanced"
Pacman - "balanced"
Rob - Still showing promise but nothing exceptional, Vinnie has moved on from him and Chibo is still showing the character is good, but seems clear to me he isn't a top tier.
Robin - A lot of fun, a huge character following, one of the best smash players in the world repping them, but results have started to dry and the mains have moved on.
Rosalina - "balanced" but still quite good.

I'd say initial hype for the likes of:


have mostly evaporated too. Peach and Jiggs both still have backing voices of goodness (including from myself), but aren't really showing anything yet; Peach losing staleless fair and other small bugs did hurt her a little.

 

[Nu~]

Pac-Man can fit into that list. We've already been over how his only glaring weakness is his grab (but it hurts quite a bit) and Abadango is placing really well with him in Japan.

 

[san.]

If top/high level players coincidentally decide not to explore a certain character, chances are that not much will happen unless one of their players can manage to achieve important wins. That's also difficult with the inherent skill gap between said players.

I was already respectfully leaving the hype train right as it started. On that now, as long as they're not limited/banned. High learning curve, though, for strategies against the top characters.

To me, many perceived top characters aren't leaps and bounds ahead of other characters that a few lesser known characters may be among them, such as Pikachu. From my perspective, the only ones closest are those with few exploitable weaknesses with powerful strengths such as who imo is the best currently.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Trela still uses Robin.

 

[IsmaR]

The lack of info destroys a lot of things about characters. For Samus, I only know of IsmaR who comments on Samus.

The only other aside from I is Xyro, who has stated he hasn't yet gotten a "feel" for the character/this game yet.

I've seen a few good players use her in tourney, but hardly any of them frequent the character boards, much less this site.

 

[FullMoon]

Does Greninja even have representation? I remember that one guy who mained him dropped him for Sheik. The only one I can think of is aMSa who is very beastly with him but I don't know the results he's had with him so far.