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Character Competitive Impressions

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TTTTTsd

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Customs make everyone scarier but there's no denying that when you give Bowser any kind of reliable lagless air mobility that can grab/hit people with armor, you have a tool that can change matchups completely. This lets Bowser briefly turn into a weaving character and with his power and the no lag benefit, yeah, this is a BIG thing. If customs are legal going forward Bowser is gonna be a lot scarier. He can literally Side-B into Up+B and if you try and punish it you'll get hit, or even better, side-B into shield and then Up+B OoS if you try anything. This gives Bowser really dominant neutral against chars he may not have had it against (especially when you attach armor or a GRAB BOX to it). Not EVERY character mind you, but a few.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Should have been clearer, my bad. If Mega Man is close enough on the ground, it's usually enough for me to jab through the second or third pellet and hit him. Then I have carte blanche to follow up pretty much how I please.

Nair is a different story.

Smooth Criminal
 
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Customs make everyone scarier.
Ehh... have you seen zero suit's customs? :/

I was so disappointed in them.

The only one I am considering using is Plasma Dash, the side-b, because it lets me punish rolls really well. Project M side b as the same problems as normal side-b (no damage, **** on block) but I guess it starts faster.

And don't get me started on the paralyzers.
 
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Locke 06

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No problem @ Spinosaurus Spinosaurus

Should have been clearer, my bad. If Mega Man is close enough on the ground, it's usually enough for me to jab through the second or third pellet and hit him. Then I have carte blanche to follow up pretty much how I please.

Nair is a different story.

Smooth Criminal
Are they ending their jabs on the ground? Because you can jump out of it at any point to retreat if you're in a position where you can be jab/ftilt'ed. Short hop pellet strings are the future of competitive Mega Man and it's going to be a real pain to deal with.

Edit: I just noticed I stopped thinking of jab/ftilt/nair as different moves. That's kind of cool...
 
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TTTTTsd

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Ehh... have you seen zero suit's customs? :/
LOL okay, I see what you mean haha. Not like she needs them though, she's tricked out pretty well in this game. I didn't think wearing heels could make you so potent, maybe some other characters could use them in the future....

For the record though customs make a majority of the cast (or at least a good portion) a fair deal more interesting and threatening.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Customs make everyone scarier but there's no denying that when you give Bowser any kind of reliable lagless air mobility that can grab/hit people with armor, you have a tool that can change matchups completely. This lets Bowser briefly turn into a weaving character and with his power and the no lag benefit, yeah, this is a BIG thing. If customs are legal going forward Bowser is gonna be a lot scarier. He can literally Side-B into Up+B and if you try and punish it you'll get hit, or even better, side-B into shield and then Up+B OoS if you try anything. This gives Bowser really dominant neutral against chars he may not have had it against (especially when you attach armor or a GRAB BOX to it). Not EVERY character mind you, but a few.
not to mention out of side 3 you can grab right from landing as well making it incredibly hard to shield grab back. or for the lol you can air side b into ground side b for a easy combo that dose 14 percent
 

ChikoLad

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Customs make everyone scarier but there's no denying that when you give Bowser any kind of reliable lagless air mobility that can grab/hit people with armor, you have a tool that can change matchups completely. This lets Bowser briefly turn into a weaving character and with his power and the no lag benefit, yeah, this is a BIG thing. If customs are legal going forward Bowser is gonna be a lot scarier. He can literally Side-B into Up+B and if you try and punish it you'll get hit, or even better, side-B into shield and then Up+B OoS if you try anything. This gives Bowser really dominant neutral against chars he may not have had it against (especially when you attach armor or a GRAB BOX to it). Not EVERY character mind you, but a few.
If customs are the issue, then we musn't forget Rosalina has them too.

And with that, two words - Luma Warp. All she needs to fix any of the problems you describe here.

Luma Warp is literally a teleporting hit box that can be acted out of pretty much immediately. Rosalina can simply time it so that Luma lands right on top of Bowser, in any situation (especially easy to do with someone of Bowser's size), and then pull any attack she wants immediately.

So basically, it gives Rosalina lagless and safe Luma spacing, with the drawback being a static range. Still incredibly useful though, and basically, her opponent has to completely rethink how to approach her.

Granted, I can see how these customs help Bowser, but they are not match-up shattering by any means. Easily countered by playing more patiently.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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If customs are the issue, then we musn't forget Rosalina has them too.

And with that, two words - Luma Warp. All she needs to fix any of the problems you describe here.

Luma Warp is literally a teleporting hit box that can be acted out of pretty much immediately. Rosalina can simply time it so that Luma lands right on top of Bowser, in any situation (especially easy to do with someone of Bowser's size), and then pull any attack she wants immediately.

So basically, it gives Rosalina lagless and safe Luma spacing, with the drawback being a static range. Still incredibly useful though, and basically, her opponent has to completely rethink how to approach her.
nice but thats also incredibly strict and leaves no room for error because if bowser blocks his weave in will be able to punish.
 

NAKAT

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My Top 5 :rosalina::4sheik::4lucario::4diddy::4ness:

My bottom 5 :4ganondorf::4drmario::4miigun::4miisword::4myfriends:

The rest of top 10 :4fox::4robinf::4greninja::4sonic::4yoshi:

Ness has the tools to contend with every character in the game even rosalina who is able to take away his recovery. His kill options are not only reliable, but they are very fast and have great setups. The games mechanics also give Ness something very important that he struggled with in earlier games which is getting gimped. The start up of PKT1 is similar to Lucas's and it goes through your opponent not allowing them to just body block your PKT and make you die. The rotation you need to hit yourself into pkt2 is also way shorter making the process faster. The ranged of pkt2 is also longer so Ness can recover from the depths of the blastzone! Also he has a neat trick that gives him his up b back as soon as he bounces off the stage meaning he can UP B TWICE! Ness is not easy to gimp and if done wrong you will die because PKT2 kills around as early as 45-50% on impact!

Killing in this game at the moment is drawn out and a bit difficult due to the length of blast zones. Ness has his reliable backthrow that kills around 100% depending on the character and when accompanied by rage it makes it even deadlier. Uair, bair, nair, fsmash (out of pk fire) are all very strong kill moves as well. Dthrow and Pkfire set up these kill moves with ease and Ness's edge guarding game is godlike and can be done in many ways! PKT edge guarding is buffed because of hitstun putting your opponent in the position to get punished when hit the the move. It either brings them back to you in hitstun and then you can kill with any aerial or stage spikes them. The hitbox for the move is also larger and the tail of PKT is good for stuffing recoveries. PKT is also good for juggling opponents easily above you. Another scary quality about pkt is that since there is landing lag after aerials and airdodges if you force these options out of your opponent while you are in pkt you can easily kill them with pkt2 as a landing trap! You can drop off the stage and nair your opponents either into the stage for an early stage spike kill or or you can hit them away further from the ledge to continue gaining more free damage. This applies to all of his other aerials besides uair. uair should be used as an aerial mixup especially if fast falled because that nets a free grab or at higher percents a kill because the move is so strong. Ness has A TON of options that most of the cast has a hard time dealing with, but he also has a learning curve. The games mechanics also heavily benefit Ness both offstage and onstage. PK fire is also very very good because the lack of smash di allows the move to damage your opponent heavily and trap them into a free grab which results in follow ups and a ton of damage. Ness's aerials also have a lot of priority and overall the character does well against the other 4 characters I have in the top 5 with him. Definitely top 5 material in my eyes as well as Pierce the caster from NJ/NY who will have more to say on this matter as well.
 

ChikoLad

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nice but thats also incredibly strict and leaves no room for error because if bowser blocks his weave in will be able to punish.
No, because the warp is instant (i.e. very difficult to block), and again, basically lagless. Rosalina and Luma can act out of it instantly, so the weave in is merely a baitable thing at this point, as Rosalina can act fast enough to punish him for the weave.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Well now that im home.

Just putting out my minor thoughts on some characters, some of them obviously underdeveloped but I can look back on this later to see how my opinion changes.
:4mario: - Tbh I feel Mario is a play-maker. His damage per hit is not high however, he can string up damage together. The beloved Sheik is another character with low damage per-hit but that isn't as relevant if you can potentially get multiple hits in. Gust cape and High-pressure FLUDD help round out his edgeguard, while Mario has trouble killing he also makes it particularly difficult to recover, respecially for certain horizontal recoveries. Fast Fireballs are actually quite disruptive, and a good projectile. I worry about how he will fair in trades when he is unable to manage 2x strings. If gust cape/Fldd/Fast Fireballs/bair are going to be enough edge pressure to make up for his faults.

:4luigi:- Everyones true favorite Mario brother. Not feeling the same potency of his brother. Luigi hits harder, theres better knockback frankly his dthrow is better, but his range is troublesome. He has some acceptable recover via customs but vertically its very hit or miss and rather subject to punish, even horizontal he isn't out of the woods. His recovery in general is just rather linear. I greatly prefer Marios fast fireballs and gust cape. Luigi just hasn't shown himself to be as effective. I worry if his slide mechanics will make counter-aggression impractical along with some of his as always low range options getting him spaced out without significant enough reward when he gets in.

:4peach: - Her options with float are a complete pain, moves not staling is dumb. Even still edgeguarding her Up-B is difficult in a similar vein to Game&Watch. Time will tell if this gets resolved, but so far it feels like you need a specific set of tools to gimp her that most characters do not have. On-stage she puts out too much pressure with floated aerials. Her smashes are potent, I just find her hard to deal with. I have quite a bit to learn about her, but I believe she is strong given her options and how difficult they can be to punish. I dont worry well at all for her because I need to get my ass kicked by peach less first.

:4bowser: - I am not an admirer. For all Bowsers strengths, he is still a huge tub of lard, subject to being outranged, juggled, or straight up combo'd. That isn't to say he doesn't have presence but people who "get-In" get to stay in on Bowser to do a considerable amount of damage, his recovery is nothing jawbreaking and while his outright damage has to be respected, the speed at which he does it does not. Dash claw is potent but it's purposefully coupled with low damage, and it doesn't resolve the problems of hi size. I worry that his ground strength gets invalidated, by counter-approaches of faster characters with the ability to weave in between his attacks, regardless of their reward and long disjoints from characters who can afford to eat a few of his attacks straight up winning the spacing war because he is slow.
A strong character with strong weaknesses.

:4yoshi:- Former Yoshi player in Brawl, OOS options really open the door for him. I didnt feel like Brawl Yoshi had a ton of problems before, I feel like now its just the main problems are gone allowing his strengths to show through without abnormal weaknesses.
I like what i see of him but I remain hopefully pessimistic. Great jab, nair and bair are good *as always*, yoshi just has good aerials. His ground game is solid, I believe the majority of his customs except for egg roll are fairly solid choices but I am missing a down special. Egg rolls viability doesn't even matter when you have all these other options going for you. Im worried the hype betrays the reality and we find that Yoshi's attack range is overstated allowing some characters who struggle with range to approach him, especially on stages like Battlefield where the platform gives them a defense against a camping yoshi.

:rosalina:- Something isn't right while she has started of phenomenal, I do start to get the picture that Luma becomes less relevant over time. Moves that dispatch Luma are becoming known and moves that do so "safely" are going to be quite a factor. That is not the largest deal as Luma has some large hitboxes of her own that bloody linger to boot, and are rather quick to start-up. Her Roll/spotdodge are mindgames within themself, recovery is solid, she has tons of K.O power and she is frankly difficult to approach. You basically have to approach her however since she sports such potent anti-projectile options in Luma + gravitational field and having camp options with luma shot/laser. She denies camping, she's hard to approach, she doesn't lack K.O potential + her disjoints, she has built in anti-grab. She puts strain on a significant amount of your options and to make matters worse even if you deny her gimmick its for a meagre set of time. If she will fall or not I can't say, but she is very volatile.

:4roy: - Im glad Roy returned from Melee, seemingly better. I thought he was faster but with more play I see the lag of his attacks more clearly, He has some really hard hitting moves but the practicality isnt there. He is an odd place but I lack enough of his customs. He is not lacking in recovery between his kart and eject. His grab game is understated. Air cannon has edgeguard potential probably more than the actual cannon. Too many critical options are slow on whiff however. May lead to him being unable to land his KO moves, cart being too much of a telegraph due to its lack of speed and damage wracking problematic.

:4wario2: - Ive played him little but solid air maneuverability translating into a respectable air game. F-smash of peace and his recovery is difficult. The bike changes mean he is seldom without it, mix in a command grab and he has solid mix-up potential and great reward. I find dthrow unwieldy however. Looking forward to see more of him.

:4gaw: - I think he is a fire cracker. His parachute is a lot safer. Bucket is still strong, quick bucket is good as well. He dies early as hell If anything his ground threat is the most noteworthy. I kill every g&w I meet though which doesnt speak well for him. He is too light or the pressure he puts out, he is difficult to gimp with parachute but who cares when he dies at 90%. I only have 2 customs though. From outside influence, I believe Judge has a more consistent version that remains significant. He doesn't take trades well. B-air and F-air are laggy, dont even believe they are safe on shield. His probably only safe aerial is n-air. ftilt is meh, dtilt is lovely actually. Did I mention how paper he feels? I hope im wrong but I feel G&W doesn't walk away from trades well enough to contend. You hit him 8x he is at kill percent he hits you 8x and you are not.
 

Road Death Wheel

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No, because the warp is instant (i.e. very difficult to block), and again, basically lagless. Rosalina and Luma can act out of it instantly, so the weave in is merely a baitable thing at this point, as Rosalina can act fast enough to punish him for the weave.
it has super armor your not stoping him anyway
 

Road Death Wheel

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My Top 5 :rosalina::4sheik::4lucario::4diddy::4ness:

My bottom 5 :4ganondorf::4drmario::4miigun::4miisword::4myfriends:

The rest of top 10 :4fox::4robinf::4greninja::4sonic::4yoshi:

Ness has the tools to contend with every character in the game even rosalina who is able to take away his recovery. His kill options are not only reliable, but they are very fast and have great setups. The games mechanics also give Ness something very important that he struggled with in earlier games which is getting gimped. The start up of PKT1 is similar to Lucas's and it goes through your opponent not allowing them to just body block your PKT and make you die. The rotation you need to hit yourself into pkt2 is also way shorter making the process faster. The ranged of pkt2 is also longer so Ness can recover from the depths of the blastzone! Also he has a neat trick that gives him his up b back as soon as he bounces off the stage meaning he can UP B TWICE! Ness is not easy to gimp and if done wrong you will die because PKT2 kills around as early as 45-50% on impact!

Killing in this game at the moment is drawn out and a bit difficult due to the length of blast zones. Ness has his reliable backthrow that kills around 100% depending on the character and when accompanied by rage it makes it even deadlier. Uair, bair, nair, fsmash (out of pk fire) are all very strong kill moves as well. Dthrow and Pkfire set up these kill moves with ease and Ness's edge guarding game is godlike and can be done in many ways! PKT edge guarding is buffed because of hitstun putting your opponent in the position to get punished when hit the the move. It either brings them back to you in hitstun and then you can kill with any aerial or stage spikes them. The hitbox for the move is also larger and the tail of PKT is good for stuffing recoveries. PKT is also good for juggling opponents easily above you. Another scary quality about pkt is that since there is landing lag after aerials and airdodges if you force these options out of your opponent while you are in pkt you can easily kill them with pkt2 as a landing trap! You can drop off the stage and nair your opponents either into the stage for an early stage spike kill or or you can hit them away further from the ledge to continue gaining more free damage. This applies to all of his other aerials besides uair. uair should be used as an aerial mixup especially if fast falled because that nets a free grab or at higher percents a kill because the move is so strong. Ness has A TON of options that most of the cast has a hard time dealing with, but he also has a learning curve. The games mechanics also heavily benefit Ness both offstage and onstage. PK fire is also very very good because the lack of smash di allows the move to damage your opponent heavily and trap them into a free grab which results in follow ups and a ton of damage. Ness's aerials also have a lot of priority and overall the character does well against the other 4 characters I have in the top 5 with him. Definitely top 5 material in my eyes as well as Pierce the caster from NJ/NY who will have more to say on this matter as well.
lol i know your a pro and all but ur not known for your particular greatness with heavy characters so im not to sure about your bottom 5 just beeing out of your comfort zone
 

Conda

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lol i know your a pro and all but ur not known for your particular greatness with heavy characters so im not to sure about your bottom 5 just beeing out of your comfort zone
Let's not direct judgements too closely like that :p Nor nitpick personal placements.

@ NAKAT NAKAT - I believe you switched to Fox in a recent set of yours I watched (I assume he is a secondary of yours). Care to give us your thoughts on Fox, as he is also not often spoken about though clearly has potential.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Let's not direct judgements too closely like that :p Nor nitpick personal placements.

@ NAKAT NAKAT - I believe you switched to Fox in a recent set of yours I watched (I assume he is a secondary of yours). Care to give us your thoughts on Fox, as he is also not often spoken about though clearly has potential.
lol my insecurity on ganon showing? lol my bad
 

Shaya

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Good morning team, I just woke up. Isn't always fun to do so though, heh.
The reason I ban tier lists is because of the whole "MY OPINION > YOUR OPINION" that devolves from it, and it also promotes everyone else posting tier lists that may or may not be solid points of discussion. After this, I suppose it's always safer to not post a list, but it wasn't exactly the goal with such a sanity rule.
What spawned from this wasn't my opinion your opinion, but rather "we're all hush about our pure lists, so should you". Considering that it was just a few tiers without internal orders and structured well, it felt more like one of those "pictures paint a thousand words" lists. But alas dear Tier Lists, I knew them.

Anyway before I passed out however many hours ago, I apparently had this saved in my drafts. I think my goals were something like categorising characters by classes of capabilities / design paradigms and then potentially ordering them within. I haven't done any ordering within here, nor provided explanations for what each class is


Heavyweight/Grappler Class:
:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:

Heavy Hybrid Class (protip: OVERPOWERED):
:4falcon::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4wario::4yoshi:

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Focus Class:
:4darkpit::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4miisword::4peach::4pit::4zss:

Zone Breaking/Rush down Class:
:4diddy::4falco::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4miibrawl::4ness::4palutena::4pikachu::4sheik::4sonic:

Mid Range Zoning Class:
:4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4megaman::4miigun::4olimar::4pacman::4zelda:

Long Range Zoning Class:
:4rob::4robinm::rosalina::4samus::4tlink::4villager:


Awkward / they attack you, okay? ~ Feel like I almost need a CQC category, because that's ultimately what Mac and Doctor Mario are at the least, with luigi/mario probably coming closer to that design than say rush down or mid range zoning. Shulk's monado arts changes him all over the place and altogether he's a bit of a misunderstood mess in my eyes. Kirby probably feels close to CQC, but is probably closer to precision- characters. Wii Fit could almost be it's own category, definitely the most far and away design from every other character I've seen, making them almost impossible to truly ascertain their power level from (from what I've seen, their numbers for what they are capable of doing is just ludicrously over the top).
:4drmario::4kirby::4luigi::4mario::4shulk::4wiifit:

Descriptions of each class could probably be covered better by how I think of natural counters/strengths.
Heavies / Grapplers > Precision class
Zone breaking/rush down > no real weaknesses usually but often have deficiencies against long range zoners and run even/struggle with precision characters.
Mid range zoners > grapplers
Long range zoners > everyone, but a lot slower in doing so than rush down:p
Precision > Mid range zoners
 
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NairWizard

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If customs are the issue, then we musn't forget Rosalina has them too.

And with that, two words - Luma Warp. All she needs to fix any of the problems you describe here.

Luma Warp is literally a teleporting hit box that can be acted out of pretty much immediately. Rosalina can simply time it so that Luma lands right on top of Bowser, in any situation (especially easy to do with someone of Bowser's size), and then pull any attack she wants immediately.

So basically, it gives Rosalina lagless and safe Luma spacing, with the drawback being a static range. Still incredibly useful though, and basically, her opponent has to completely rethink how to approach her.

Granted, I can see how these customs help Bowser, but they are not match-up shattering by any means. Easily countered by playing more patiently.
Think you were replying to the wrong guy there. I don't think that he was suggesting that Bowser beats Rosalina. I'm the one suggesting that, and I did factor in Luma's custom starbit. I am not as convinced about Luma Warp vs. Luma Shot in this matchup: it might be better, but it's a set distance, so just as Rosalina can be wary of Bowser's new approach methods, Bowser can also be wary of Rosalina's new approach method (Bowser's side-b is also lagless). Actually, the Luma Warp is dangerous to use because if Bowser gets past Luma (or is already moving past Luma when Rosalina uses warp), Rosalina just lost one of her best tools against Bowser's custom approach game (that is to say, her disjointed close-range options with Luma). Luma warp to jab is good due to Bowser's big size but it's a bit of a gamble against a Bowser who is in motion. Bowser can also move back and fire breath Luma, and Rosalina can't punish him for this because her only projectiles all involve Luma.

In some quick testing I did vs. a real player just now, Bowser's up-b custom can also punish Rosalina's landing and go through Luma Shot while on the ground.

Let's not forget: Bowser is big, but Rosalina is also tall and significantly lighter. Bowser will spend longer in Rage, and a lot of his moves can KO Rosalina at early percents.

With default movesets, I believe that Rosalina wins this matchup because Bowser has no way to get in, and Rosalina can just space Luma, jabs, and d-tilt to keep him out. With customs, though, I think it's in Bowser's favor. Rosalina losing both weight and mobility is too much of a disadvantage if she doesn't have the equally strong advantage of winning the keep-away game (she still does win the keep-away game, don't get me wrong, but Bowser actually has approaches with customs).

The biggest problem I see for Bowser in this matchup is Rosalina's aerials. N-air is difficult to deal with, and so is b-air and f-air. up-air and down-air can be escaped with the side-b in some situations, though not all. However, using aerials requires Rosalina to put herself in the air, and subject her generally floaty aerial maneuverability to Bowser's strong b-air. Being able to use side-b in the air as Bowser is not to be underestimated either, since it allows Bowser to cover significantly more ground (air?) while airborne than Rosalina can with anything outside of launch-star.

Also, most players don't do this right now, but you can edgeguard Rosalina's default recovery if she chooses to use it (and the attack one has a trajectory problem) by placing any kind of hitbox between her and the ledge. She can counter this tactic with some Luma ledge tricks, though.

Of all the characters that I can think of that I'd use vs. Rosalina, I believe that custom Marth and custom Bowser would be the best choices.
 

Shaya

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What's the difference between spacing and zoning? I understand zoning is "I want to keep my opponent in a 'zone' which is a range of distances that I excel at." But isn't spacing the same as that?
Spacing is important on every character, but I see zoners as characters which are trying to create "something" (a wall usually) that the opponent has to beat the elements of to get past. Precision characters are picking single options at the right time as a response to what other characters are doing and maintain pressure by keeping safe with their spacing.

Obviously all these things kinda overlap on character capabilities, but as Meta Knight, I don't really get anything from rolling to the other side of the stage to get breathing room.
 
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Smooth Criminal

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Zoning is more or less controlling a very specific patch of a stage by virtue of long-range normals or projectiles; spacing denotes distance between you and the other guy, generally at close range or mid-range, and the placement of attacks within those parameters.

@ Locke 06 Locke 06

goddamn you, @ Shaya Shaya . >:v Go back to bed

Smooth Criminal
 
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NairWizard

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Oh, whoops, I forgot Hammer Spin Dash. Would take that character against Rosalina too.
 

ChikoLad

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Think you were replying to the wrong guy there. I don't think that he was suggesting that Bowser beats Rosalina. I'm the one suggesting that, and I did factor in Luma's custom starbit. I am not as convinced about Luma Warp vs. Luma Shot in this matchup: it might be better, but it's a set distance, so just as Rosalina can be wary of Bowser's new approach methods, Bowser can also be wary of Rosalina's new approach method (Bowser's side-b is also lagless). Actually, the Luma Warp is dangerous to use because if Bowser gets past Luma (or is already moving past Luma when Rosalina uses warp), Rosalina just lost one of her best tools against Bowser's custom approach game (that is to say, her disjointed close-range options with Luma). Luma warp to jab is good due to Bowser's big size but it's a bit of a gamble against a Bowser who is in motion. Bowser can also move back and fire breath Luma, and Rosalina can't punish him for this because her only projectiles all involve Luma.

In some quick testing I did vs. a real player just now, Bowser's up-b custom can also punish Rosalina's landing and go through Luma Shot while on the ground.

Let's not forget: Bowser is big, but Rosalina is also tall and significantly lighter. Bowser will spend longer in Rage, and a lot of his moves can KO Rosalina at early percents.

With default movesets, I believe that Rosalina wins this matchup because Bowser has no way to get in, and Rosalina can just space Luma, jabs, and d-tilt to keep him out. With customs, though, I think it's in Bowser's favor. Rosalina losing both weight and mobility is too much of a disadvantage if she doesn't have the equally strong advantage of winning the keep-away game (she still does win the keep-away game, don't get me wrong, but Bowser actually has approaches with customs).

The biggest problem I see for Bowser in this matchup is Rosalina's aerials. N-air is difficult to deal with, and so is b-air and f-air. up-air and down-air can be escaped with the side-b in some situations, though not all. However, using aerials requires Rosalina to put herself in the air, and subject her generally floaty aerial maneuverability to Bowser's strong b-air. Being able to use side-b in the air as Bowser is not to be underestimated either, since it allows Bowser to cover significantly more ground (air?) while airborne than Rosalina can with anything outside of launch-star.

Also, most players don't do this right now, but you can edgeguard Rosalina's default recovery if she chooses to use it (and the attack one has a trajectory problem) by placing any kind of hitbox between her and the ledge. She can counter this tactic with some Luma ledge tricks, though.

Of all the characters that I can think of that I'd use vs. Rosalina, I believe that custom Marth and custom Bowser would be the best choices.
Rosalina's mobility is fine. Dash speed is above average, aerial speed is above average, and dodge is one of the best in the game.

Just because Bowser has a dashing approach, does not mean he suddenly wins the match up. If you can deal with Spin Dash, you can deal with Bowser's Side B and Up B, no matter the version.

And while Luma Warp has a set distance, it's still very hard to read when Rosalina will use it.
 

Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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Good morning team, I just woke up. Isn't always fun to do so though, heh.
The reason I ban tier lists is because of the whole "MY OPINION > YOUR OPINION" that devolves from it, and it also promotes everyone else posting tier lists that may or may not be solid points of discussion. After this, I suppose it's always safer to not post a list, but it wasn't exactly the goal with such a sanity rule.
What spawned from this wasn't my opinion your opinion, but rather "we're all hush about our pure lists, so should you". Considering that it was just a few tiers without internal orders and structured well, it felt more like one of those "pictures paint a thousand words" lists. But alas dear Tier Lists, I knew them.

Anyway before I passed out however many hours ago, I apparently had this saved in my drafts. I think my goals were something like categorising characters by classes of capabilities / design paradigms and then potentially ordering them within. I haven't done any ordering within here, nor provided explanations for what each class is


Heavyweight/Grappler Class:
:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:

Heavy Hybrid Class (protip: OVERPOWERED):
:4falcon::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4wario::4yoshi:

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Focus Class:
:4darkpit::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4miisword::4peach::4pit::4zss:

Zone Breaking/Rush down Class:
:4diddy::4falco::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4miibrawl::4ness::4palutena::4pikachu::4sheik::4sonic:

Mid Range Zoning Class:
:4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4megaman::4miigun::4olimar::4pacman::4zelda:

Long Range Zoning Class:
:4rob::4robinm::rosalina::4samus::4tlink::4villager:


Awkward / they attack you, okay? ~ Feel like I almost need a CQC category, because that's ultimately what Mac and Doctor Mario are at the least, with luigi/mario probably coming closer to that design than say rush down or mid range zoning. Shulk's monado arts changes him all over the place and altogether he's a bit of a misunderstood mess in my eyes. Kirby probably feels close to CQC, but is probably closer to precision- characters. Wii Fit could almost be it's own category, definitely the most far and away design from every other character I've seen, making them almost impossible to truly ascertain their power level from (from what I've seen, their numbers for what they are capable of doing is just ludicrously over the top).
:4drmario::4kirby::4luigi::4mario::4shulk::4wiifit:

Descriptions of each class could probably be covered better by how I think of natural counters/strengths.
Heavies / Grapplers > Precision class
Zone breaking/rush down > no real weaknesses usually but often have deficiencies against long range zoners and run even/struggle with precision characters.
Mid range zoners > grapplers
Long range zoners > everyone, but a lot slower in doing so than rush down:p
Precision > Mid range zoners
Really interesting stuff, thanks for doing this.

I'd probably put Lucario in the zone breaking/rushdown class, and Shulk in with the precision class (no use in having that range if you aren't going to use it properly, as a lot of drawbacks come with that range similar to Marth). But you're right in that Shulk is kind of misunderstood. Basically a Marth-esque character with stances, and worse at everything than Marth (imo) due to those stances. But can pull off some neat tricks and can strategize a little more than Marth can (or anyone really, at least in his unique way). I'd put him in precision as he basically needs to play like a precision character in order to not get sandbagged.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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Rosalina's mobility is fine. Dash speed is above average, aerial speed is above average, and dodge is one of the best in the game.

Just because Bowser has a dashing approach, does not mean he suddenly wins the match up. If you can deal with Spin Dash, you can deal with Bowser's Side B and Up B, no matter the version.

And while Luma Warp has a set distance, it's still very hard to read when Rosalina will use it.
yes sonic can not effectivly spin dash in the air on top of cancel lag into an immediate follow up.
 

Shaya

   「chase you」 
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Also that Samus player that people linked videos of earlier.
I wouldn't forget a name like that, I've played them before.

I even remember the way I "saw" Samus and starting charging b and back rolling 4 times at the start to show my disdain, and then they never even did anything close to it, fought me the entire time, it was great.
I'm pretty sure I lost most of the matches, but it was one of the smartest players I had come across on For Glory up until that point. I do think they ended up leaving after I went G&W or Falco? Not sure; I did win at least 1 out of the 3 or 4 matches we played.

What is cqc supposed to beat then @ Shaya Shaya
They seem to go okay against grapplers, precision and zone breakers.
If Mac is the penultimate example of CQC at it's most potent, then you see them going even/losing to grapplers, doing fine against precision characters, and tend to have tools to break mid range zoners. Rush down characters just seem to be better/stronger in terms of options though, but CQC characters aren't necessarily inadequate against them.
 
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Conda

aka COBBS - Content Creator (Toronto region)
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What's the difference between spacing and zoning? I understand zoning is "I want to keep my opponent in a 'zone' which is a range of distances that I excel at." But isn't spacing the same as that?
Many others have already answered, but let me help out a bit too.

Think of how Megaman and other zoning characters toss out projectiles - they don't care if they hit a lot of the time. That's zoning - you're essentially forcing or 'encouraging' your opponent to approach you a certain way, or return to the stage a certain way. You put up a wall of sorts to do this (each character has their own way of doing it), and that wall can hurt.

Long range zoners can do mid-range zoning too, giving them a little bonus in flexibility there.

Also keep in mind that customs allow characters to move around in these classifications. Samus can become a mid-range zoner or a longer range zoner, and TLink can be one of the best stage control zoner in the game thanks to fire arrows (imo, with my experience so far) and low-fuse bombs. :)
 

NairWizard

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Rosalina's mobility is fine. Dash speed is above average, aerial speed is above average, and dodge is one of the best in the game.

Just because Bowser has a dashing approach, does not mean he suddenly wins the match up. If you can deal with Spin Dash, you can deal with Bowser's Side B and Up B, no matter the version.

And while Luma Warp has a set distance, it's still very hard to read when Rosalina will use it.
Once again, last post on this subject from me, as it's trending toward that repetitive/subjective line:

- "Rosalina's mobility is fine" - I didn't say it wasn't fine, I said that Bowser's was better, and it is. Rosalina's actual mobility is irrelevant when Bowser is on the stage because she's not comparing her mobility to anyone's but Bowser's. Bowser has a significant speed advantage over her, with these customs especially. More mobility, more weight, and more power aren't small advantages. Not that these advantages alone paint a picture of Bowser's victory in the matchup.

-It isn't that Rosalina can't deal with this approach *at all* (that's hyperbole; pardon me for engaging in it), but the matchup already wasn't very lopsided to begin with: each side has its advantages with default sets; Rosalina's are just bigger. The dashing approach is a solid option besides walk up f-tilt/shield, fire breath, or DA that Bowser can use to approach, and the up-b is another. Bowser jumps from 3-4 approach options to 5-6. Rosalina already has ways to approach with Luma out in front of her: Luma Warp adds an option that she didn't have while taking away another one, but she would be much better served by shrinking her size or increasing her weight via a custom, if she could do that, instead.

Yes, you can deal with any move in the game. No move is 100% safe 100% of the time and will work in 100% of realistic situations.

-I don't think that Rosalina beats Spin Dash, especially not Hammer Spin Dash, but that's another point entirely. Sonic is probably her worst matchup.

-"hard to read..." Yes, and it's just as hard to read Bowser's side-b and what he will do with it, only Bowser's side-b shores up a significant problem that Bowser has in this matchup (approaching) while Rosalina's Luma Warp adds to her strengths in the matchup.

defaults:
Rosalina:
+ hard to approach
+ can camp (ties into above)
+ juggles with aerials
+ has disjoints
+ can land hits more easily on Bowser due to his size than Bowser can on her

Bowser:
+ kills early
+ dies late (ties into above)
+ has strong tools vs. Luma
+ is faster

With customs, Rosalina's camping game gets better while Bowser's aerial chases and ability to escape from aerial juggles get better, mobility gets better, and ability to approach gets better. Bowser is also harder to edgeguard with customs for what's it worth, though Rosalina is too depending on which stage we're playing on, so I wouldn't count that.

Seems to swing the matchup into Bowser's favor to me.

As Thinkaman has pointed out before, customs generally make weaker characters stronger by a larger margin than they make already-strong characters stronger. I see this as being true in this case, though Starbit shot is a very strong tool and I am not about to underestimate it.
 
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Nidtendofreak

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Good morning team, I just woke up. Isn't always fun to do so though, heh.
The reason I ban tier lists is because of the whole "MY OPINION > YOUR OPINION" that devolves from it, and it also promotes everyone else posting tier lists that may or may not be solid points of discussion. After this, I suppose it's always safer to not post a list, but it wasn't exactly the goal with such a sanity rule.
What spawned from this wasn't my opinion your opinion, but rather "we're all hush about our pure lists, so should you". Considering that it was just a few tiers without internal orders and structured well, it felt more like one of those "pictures paint a thousand words" lists. But alas dear Tier Lists, I knew them.

Anyway before I passed out however many hours ago, I apparently had this saved in my drafts. I think my goals were something like categorising characters by classes of capabilities / design paradigms and then potentially ordering them within. I haven't done any ordering within here, nor provided explanations for what each class is


Heavyweight/Grappler Class:
:4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:

Heavy Hybrid Class (protip: OVERPOWERED):
:4falcon::4myfriends::4link::4lucario::4wario::4yoshi:

Mid Range Spacing/Precision Focus Class:
:4darkpit::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4miisword::4peach::4pit::4zss:

Zone Breaking/Rush down Class:
:4diddy::4falco::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4miibrawl::4ness::4palutena::4pikachu::4sheik::4sonic:

Mid Range Zoning Class:
:4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4megaman::4miigun::4olimar::4pacman::4zelda:

Long Range Zoning Class:
:4rob::4robinm::rosalina::4samus::4tlink::4villager:


Awkward / they attack you, okay? ~ Feel like I almost need a CQC category, because that's ultimately what Mac and Doctor Mario are at the least, with luigi/mario probably coming closer to that design than say rush down or mid range zoning. Shulk's monado arts changes him all over the place and altogether he's a bit of a misunderstood mess in my eyes. Kirby probably feels close to CQC, but is probably closer to precision- characters. Wii Fit could almost be it's own category, definitely the most far and away design from every other character I've seen, making them almost impossible to truly ascertain their power level from (from what I've seen, their numbers for what they are capable of doing is just ludicrously over the top).
:4drmario::4kirby::4luigi::4mario::4shulk::4wiifit:

Descriptions of each class could probably be covered better by how I think of natural counters/strengths.
Heavies / Grapplers > Precision class
Zone breaking/rush down > no real weaknesses usually but often have deficiencies against long range zoners and run even/struggle with precision characters.
Mid range zoners > grapplers
Long range zoners > everyone, but a lot slower in doing so than rush down:p
Precision > Mid range zoners
What makes the hybrids over powered? There's only two in that lot that seems to be top tier possibilities (Yoshi, Lucario). Zone Breakers have more top tier possibilities in there (Fox, Greninja, Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, Sonic).
 

Road Death Wheel

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Once again, last post on this subject from me, as it's trending toward that repetitive/subjective line:

- "Rosalina's mobility is fine" - I didn't say it wasn't fine, I said that Bowser's was better, and it is. Rosalina's actual mobility is irrelevant when Bowser is on the stage because she's not comparing her mobility to anyone's but Bowser's. Bowser has a significant speed advantage over her, with these customs especially. More mobility, more weight, and more power aren't small advantages. Not that these advantages alone paint a picture of Bowser's victory in the matchup.

-It isn't that Rosalina can't deal with this approach *at all* (that's hyperbole), but the matchup already wasn't very lopsided to begin with: each side has its advantages with default sets; Rosalina's are just bigger. The dashing approach is a solid option besides walk up f-tilt/shield, fire breath, or DA that Bowser can use to approach, and the up-b is another. Bowser jumps from 3-4 approach options to 5-6. Rosalina already has ways to approach with Luma out in front of her: Luma Warp adds an option that she didn't have while taking away another one, but she would be much better served by shrinking her size or increasing her weight via a custom, if she could do that, instead.

Yes, you can deal with any move in the game. No move is 100% safe 100% of the time and will work in 100% of realistic situations.

-I don't think that Rosalina beats Spin Dash, especially not Hammer Spin Dash, but that's another point entirely. Sonic is probably her worst matchup.

-"hard to read..." Yes, and it's just as hard to read Bowser's side-b and what he will do with it, only Bowser's side-b shores up a significant problem that Bowser has in this matchup (approaching) while Rosalina's Luma Warp adds to her strengths in the matchup.

defaults:
Rosalina:
+ hard to approach
+ can camp (ties into above)
+ juggles with aerials
+ has disjoints
+ can land hits more easily on Bowser due to his size than Bowser can on her

Bowser:
+ kills early
+ dies late (ties into above)
+ has strong tools vs. Luma
+ is faster

With customs, Rosalina's camping game gets better while Bowser's aerial chases and ability to escape from aerial juggles get better, mobility gets better, and ability to approach gets better. Bowser is also harder to edgeguard with customs for what's it worth, though Rosalina is too depending on which stage we're playing on, so I wouldn't count that.

Seems to swing the matchup into Bowser's favor to me.

As Thinkaman has pointed out before, customs generally make weaker characters stronger by a larger margin than they make already-strong characters stronger. I see this as being true in this case, though Starbit shot is a very strong tool and I am not about to underestimate it.
don't stress it to much this guy plays white knight to almost everything that might counter rosa really.
 

ChronoPenguin

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Close Quarter Combat

Think Brawl Snake's tilt/jab attacks.
I know the acronym. But as shaya is categorizing possible class advantages over another in her categorization it would lead to that class having some general matchup.


On that matter what does cqc due to a zone break. Based on these class types wouldn't they find their home against long range zone?
 

A2ZOMG

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What makes the hybrids over powered? There's only two in that lot that seems to be top tier possibilities (Yoshi, Lucario). Zone Breakers have more top tier possibilities in there (Fox, Greninja, Diddy, Shiek, Pikachu, Sonic).
Shaya is a very obvious fan of hyperbole. Even if 90% of his points are respectable and should be taken seriously.

No disrespect btw, it wouldn't be the same if you didn't act like that. <3

Also just because I have nothing else interesting to say right now, ROB is a bad character if you don't get lasered.
 
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