Character Competitive Impressions

[|RK|]

Here's a reminder: Luigi does not struggle incredibly hard to get in in this game.

BTW, what do you think of Ice Balls? I remember Boss using them once, but not recently.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Question.

Do you know what a safe approach is?

an advancing attack that's safe on block or in smash bros case shield usually involving a shff'd aerial or a projectile. Now I know in smash 4's case theirs not many safe aerial approaches on shield because shield stun is almost non existent. The only way real safe aerial approaches are aerials that can be auto cancel'd or aerials that push the opponent back. When I said that Roy doesn't have a safe approach. I meant that roy doesn't have a safe aerial approach. Sure his fair has IASA frames which he can use for fakeouts but still. Then again I'm not the biggest roy expert so maybe you can tell me if roy really does have safe approaches and while your at it share your input with roy against zoners.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Roy can just do Nair to space himself. But in shield it isn't safe at all. He has hiw down tilt that is actually safe. Also his Forward Tilt it's pretty safe for me.

Match-up analysis time:

vs What do you think?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I mean yeah Roy obviously has his flaws (I can't hype him up forever, character isn't perfect) but I can't call him outright bad, given that I know who inhabits the actual tier of bad characters in this game (I've played one of them.) I find it very difficult to call Roy bad, he's AT WORST mediocre IMO. His flaws are going to stop him from being incredibly common obviously but I don't think they even come close to making him a bad character, let alone even close to Mewtwo in that regard.

Tipped shield hitlag among other things help Roy out, perhaps Marth is better now, I'm not averse to the idea, but I don't think any of the FE characters outside of Robin and Lucina really stand out as anything but decent or good to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth had hitlag in Melee. But did he have hitlag modifiers? His hitlag was never noticeable in Melee like it is in later games. Maybe Melee hitlag is much less overall?

L cancelling is a thing. This is why you never notice his hitlag.

Hit a shield with dtilt in melee and yes you will notice it.

Also

*Posts mathematical evidence that Roy has safe attacks.*

*People still say he is unsafe*

 

[Sir Tundra]

Roy can just do Nair to space himself. But in shield it isn't safe at all. He has hiw down tilt that is actually safe. Also his Forward Tilt it's pretty safe for me.

Match-up analysis time:

vs What do you think?

Hmmm? This is an interesting matchup. I don't have much experience in this matchup since theirs not many falcos out their so I'm going to throw some two cents and give my thoughts.

Alright so Falco can easily jab out of fox's jab cancels at low percent, Fox is faster then falco meaning he can dance around him and get in real easily, Fox also beats falco on neutral especially since falco has no lagless lasers,Fox has kill setups against falco, Falco can edgeguard fox pretty easily with bair, fair, and dair. Falco can also combo fox off of throws guarranteed while fox can't since his down throw can be DI'd out of.

I'd say this matchup is either even or 55:45 being slightly in favor. But that's just my opinion so for the falco mains in this thread if you don't agree then take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Vipermoon]

L cancelling is a thing. This is why you never notice his hitlag.

Hit a shield with dtilt in melee and yes you will notice it.

I was picturing tipper Fsmash in Melee when I said that. And even if it was an aerial, what does hitlag have do with L cancelling? You L cancel after your hitlag. You definitely don't land at the same frame as your hitlag. No, that's a Smash 4 thing called frame cancelling (ridiculously stupid name).

Shields don't experience modified hitlag, so are you saying watch Marth hit a shield with Dtilt rather than watching the shielded opponent? Why, when I can just hit them and experience the same hitlag? Why shields?

Can someone get me a resource showing hitlag modifiers in Melee? I truly believe that modifiers to hitlag in that game don't exist. I can't think of one move with less or more hitlag than normal in Melee.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

L cancelling is a thing. This is why you never notice his hitlag.

Hit a shield with dtilt in melee and yes you will notice it.

Also

*Posts mathematical evidence that Roy has safe attacks.*

*People still say he is unsafe*

We live in an age where ideas spread like wildfire. Whether those ideas have any merit whatsoever or not.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hitlag def exist. There is a difference in hitting air and hitting a character. You can experience them in just about any fighter. He probably received more hitlag, but his modifiers have always existed.

Actually yes hitlag is much lower in Melee overall. Several moves mainly power hitting moves received drastically increased freeze frames i.e hitlag in Brawl and this carried over. Probably to reduce low percent kills and give the opponent more time to DI and live longer, I presume.

Glad Ryu doesnt care about this.

 

[Nobie]

Hmmm? This is an interesting matchup. I don't have much experience in this matchup since theirs not many falcos out their so I'm going to throw some two cents and give my thoughts.

Alright so Falco can easily jab out of fox's jab cancels at low percent, Fox is faster then falco meaning he can dance around him and get in real easily, Fox also beats falco on neutral especially since falco has no lagless lasers,Fox has kill setups against falco, Falco can edgeguard fox pretty easily with bair, fair, and dair. Falco can also combo fox off of throws guarranteed while fox can't since his down throw can be DI'd out of.

I'd say this matchup is either even or 55:45 being slightly in favor. But that's just my opinion so for the falco mains in this thread if you don't agree then take it with a grain of salt.

When talking about neutral, I think we need to talk about just how much longer Falco's limbs are.

 

[NairWizard]

I was going to make a post about the results of today's SoCal tourney but then found out that a legend passed away today. RIP Iwata, you've earned it.

 

[Nu~]

Wow...
The man who created games that allowed me to let my imagination run free...
The man who gave me a way to keep contact with close friends even when we couldn't see each other anymore...
The man who helped feed my passion for having genuine fun...

The president of Nintendo, has just passed away. Wow...

 

[FullMoon]

It's so hard to believe that he's gone just like that.

 

[Sir Tundra]

It's so hard to believe that he's gone just like that.

I still have trouble believing it myself. I mean iwata? dead? that can't be.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Iwata? Dead?

Stop smashin my heart to pieces

 

[hypersonicJD]

Rest in peace... Mister Iwata...

 

[Yonder]

but what makes Luigi different from his previous iterations? Luigi was always a beast in close range and could kill super easy from that area, but he struggled incredibly hard to get in. he never was a top tier threat until now, and i don't see any difference between this Luigi and ssb 64 Luigi, melee Luigi (this Luigi actually had a good burst movement option in wavdash), or brawl luigi.

Basically what Tritails said, he doesn't struggle to approach...as much anyone. Fireballs are so lagless now and fast compared to the extra end lag other projectiles got/still have [Falco, Mario, other mediocre projectiles]. Also Luigi didn't get so much % off one grab in previous games. Here, he gets % and kills off a grab unless the other games. And a huge + was the decreased end lag on his grab, so he can spam his grabs as he pleases now. He got a reasonable boost for dash speed too, further helping his approach. So yeah...that probably covers it. Wavedash was great, but that's just simply not an option anyone. Melee Luigi didn't have a recovery or a [good] projectile in Melee or much off a grab. I don't know much about Melee scene. He was average there, just that others were better.

 

[ぱみゅ]

While I am sad too for Mister Iwata, let's keep this thread on topic please.

 

[Nobie]

As much as I think imbalance isn't the best thing for a competitive game, I do find satisfaction in the fact that Mega Man's kit gives him such an edge against Dedede and Luigi. It's not so much because it makes winning easier, but because it's in some ways the very expression of Mega Man being accurately portrayed within Smash. It's a bit different than simply having a character who is good at everything.

 

[Ghostbone]

but what makes Luigi different from his previous iterations? Luigi was always a beast in close range and could kill super easy from that area, but he struggled incredibly hard to get in. he never was a top tier threat until now, and i don't see any difference between this Luigi and ssb 64 Luigi, melee Luigi (this Luigi actually had a good burst movement option in wavdash), or brawl luigi.

1. Every other character is comparatively weaker in smash 4, so even just Brawl luigi (especially with more hitstun to help him) would be fine in this game.
2. His fireball is way way way better than any other smash game, which gives him a great option to force approaches from the opponent and get in himself.
3. Amazing dash grab, again a tool that helps him get in which he didn't really have before.
4. Sword characters suck, who were traditionally the worst matchups for him. (we can see in this game that Rosalina gives luigi similar issues though)

 

[Vipermoon]

Hitlag def exist. There is a difference in hitting air and hitting a character. You can experience them in just about any fighter. He probably received more hitlag, but his modifiers have always existed.

Actually yes hitlag is much lower in Melee overall. Several moves mainly power hitting moves received drastically increased freeze frames i.e hitlag in Brawl and this carried over. Probably to reduce low percent kills and give the opponent more time to DI and live longer, I presume.

Glad Ryu doesnt care about this.

I mean yeah, I never said hitlag doesn't exist in Melee. Of course Melee has hitlag. I am only talking about modifiers to them maybe not existing (so everything would be x1.0). Maybe I'll try to find some shield hit calculations for Melee Marth, if the tipper is safer, it's safe to say Marth didn't have hitlag changes in that game.

 

[NairWizard]

While I am sad too for Mister Iwata, let's keep this thread on topic please.

You're right, we should keep on topic.

But, this thread is the only thread I actually post in or care about on smashboards (outside of patch notes/data threads). It is a community as much as it is a thread, as much about current events as it is about actual competitive impressions (how many impressions can you possibly have about one metagame, after all?), and Iwata's death is a big event. In other words, please understand: this is a big moment.

--

More topically, what I was going to originally post. SM (West Coast Ike player) defeated Void's Sheik 2-1 today, showing that the Ike vs. Sheik MU is perhaps not hopeless for Ike. Larry was going Sheik against SS in Winners Finals because he thinks Fox vs. custom Villager is too hard. SS brought out his Brawler, which beat Larry's Sheik, so Larry switched to Fox and won the set 3-1.

Larry then lost to Void 3-2 in Grand Final set 1, then beat him back 3-0 in set 2. Larry's adaptation is as strong as ever, but Fox vs. Sheik still looks really hard for Fox. The custom up-b, Twisting Fox, came into play a whole lot during the set, once scoring a kill off of a string that started at 20% on Town and City.

Highlight of the tournament was the last stock:

 

[Thinkaman]

You're right, we should keep on topic.

But, this thread is the only thread I actually post in or care about on smashboards (outside of patch notes/data threads). It is a community as much as it is a thread, as much about current events as it is about actual competitive impressions (how many impressions can you possibly have about one metagame, after all?), and Iwata's death is a big event. In other words, please understand: this is a big moment.

This x100.

Like it or not, this "thread" is a community in and of itself. In an era were most of the community has migrated away from Smashboards and on to Facebook, Twitter, and Reddit, this thread remains not only a bastion of the days of old, but imo Smashboards' finest.

This isn't a social thread. We maintain high standards here, or at least high in an era of Twitter. But the ambition of this thread results in a very broad, if targeted, discussion. We cover everything from mechanics to tourneys, from theory to practice. We cover news and speculation, data and results. We could have a dozen threads replace this one, but we don't, because everything ties together and there is an emergent culture here as a result.

Iwata's death is a big event that overflows into our world. Devoting part of a single page to this is appropriate. Iwata was not personally a member of our specific community--he did not post here debating the Yoshi/Pikachu matchup, nor share predictions for EVO. But there is no denying that the life he led now deemed completed, as a human being just like us, had a role in our community all the same.

We'll be sad, because we should, and we'll reflect on his ideals and choices, because that will make us better people. But tomorrow we'll go back to arguing about how safe Roy's attacks are, because Iwata-san would probably be disappointed if we didn't.

 

[NairWizard]

I guess if @ Shaya is my evil twin, then @ Thinkaman is the older brother I always wished I had.

+1 dude

 

[Ffamran]

Fireballs are so lagless now and fast compared to the extra end lag other projectiles got/still have [Falco, Mario, other mediocre projectiles].

Melee Luigi's Fireballs couldn't be acted out until frame 47. Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-hitboxes-and-frame-data.306546/.

Same with in Brawl except there was an IASA of 41 for Luigi. Gonna assume that's when he could do whatever since. Source: http://smashboards.com/threads/exte...ing-for-luigi-added-u-tilt-smash-gifs.175652/.

It's been a running trend for moves to have the same startup and end lag for most characters unless a move is changed like Falco's Up Smash or several of Roy's moves. Luigi's kept the same startup since each Melee and probably the same total frames (the entire animation's frames). In this game, Luigi kept his Brawl IASA frame of 41 or the total frames were shortened from Melee to Brawl and Luigi just kept his frame 17 and act at frame 41 Fireballs. Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...u2Vq5a4irDPLvwfxuOKVGxk/edit?usp=docslist_api.

Let's combine how Smash 4 works now since pre-patch, 3DS Luigi did okay, but not as well as now, and you'll see that the game plus Luigi's already strong tools makes him, well, strong. This can apply to some other characters who always did well and never dipped below low-mid like Fox. I would also argue Mario and Captain Falcon as well since Brawl's mechanics were not fun to their strong character designs.

Other characters aren't so fortunate since they had bad end lag which wasn't felt because of something else like auto-canceling which was major for Falco. People who don't know much about frame data would say things like, "Falco hits and moves so slow in this game and has too many laggy moves." In reality, Falco's pretty much the same or even faster; the patch and even launch had Fair's landing lag as lower than Brawl's: 25 after the patch and 32 at launch compared to 33 for Brawl. A "simple" removal of auto-canceling leaves Falco with Blaster's end lag from Melee and Brawl.

Even worse is when end lag or landing lag is increased despite some moves already being difficult to use like Zelda's Lightning Kicks or pre-patch Ike's jab. Or worse is when moves that were good are left untouched and now are better because of the new game's mechanics. Case in point: Diddy's Uair. At launch, it was the same as Brawl's, well, hit frame it was. Now, it's more or less kind of like (Dr.) Mario frame 4 Uair.

The thing with Luigi's Fireball is that it's good and very rewarding. Why? Low end lag and the safe range Luigi can use it in which considering its max distance is mid to close range. That's fantastic when Luigi can use it to confirm hits and grabs, cause distractions, and zone a bit. Sheik, Toon Link, Olimar, Mega Man, Yoshi, Wario?, Greninja, Villager, Peach, Mega Man, Mewtwo, and I would also even argue Lucario has a good projectile since you can use it at close range. It's the reward and safety they have that makes them good. Then we move onto decent projectiles like Ryu, Mr. Game & Watch, Samus, Fox, (Dr.) Mario, the Pits, default Palutena, Bowser, Charizard, and Robin's. I mean, you get something, but they're not as safe or they don't have a lot of reward e.g. Fox tacks on chipping damage, Mario can cover a weird angle, and Ryu can distract and stall. Or they would be good if they didn't need a ton of setup like Samus's Charge Shot which as someone said, it's like her entire game plan was revolved around it. That's pretty bad and makes seem like she's really linear. Pac-Man's would be great, but he needs to set them up along with everything else which does go against him. Are they strong? Hell yeah, but it's the whole theory vs. practice thing with him.

Then you have projectiles like Zelda, Falco, Triple D, and 1111 Mii Brawler. They're highly situational, predictable, or don't really act like projectiles in Triple D and Mii Brawler's case where Gordos and Shot Put seem more like trapping tools like Diddy's Banana Peels instead of Diddy's Peanut Popgun which is good since it would make them bad projectiles, but good trapping tools. In Zelda's case it's like high risk/random reward. I'm dead serious when I say that since one, Phantom Slash would be great if it actually functioned properly. It get's summoned at frame 1, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a hitbox until later not to mention it has deadzones. Even in FFA or 2v2, Phantom Slash could whiff, be reflected easily, or just run through - you can actually run past it. Being able to store a Phantom Slash like what some people want wouldn't fix the fact it doesn't function properly. It's amazing how the developers were able to make a projectile even worse than Din's Fire. Speaking of which, Din's Fire is slow and telegraphed. It was never a good move and the fact that Zelda enters helpless mode despite it serving no use for recovery since it doesn't even come out as fast as Burst Grenade and Zelda's recovery is worse than Sheik's, Din's Fire is pretty bad and almost like a move that is there to hurt Zelda rather than helping her. Unfortunately, it's the only projectile with a reliable reward for Zelda unless you count Uair and Nayru's Love as short-ranged projectiles and Farore's Wind as a long-ranged self-projectile.

For Falco, he takes a high risk/low reward when using Blaster. At max range is pretty much the safe distance for Falco, but most of the top tiers are speed demons and have better projectiles, so that point becomes moot. Remember the "Samus is built around Charge Shot"? Yeah, Falco was dependent on Blaster in Melee and Brawl. Make sense when he's a zoning type of character, but what's a zoner without a zoning tool? Oh, yeah, a master CQC fighter. In a way, it'd be like Snake if he didn't have Grenades, ZSS without her Stun Gun, 64 Fox without his Blaster, or Luigi without his Fireballs except one, Snake hits harder, has more melee range, and lives longer than Falco - the man crawled through a microwave -, ZSS and 64 Fox are significantly faster than Falco, and Luigi's grab game is better than Falco's not to mention Luigi's D-throw to everything. You basically force a character to play as something they're not. Set knockback is great when you want to lock someone in a position, but when you're stuck too and that someone can move much faster than you, it's not useful.

When talking about neutral, I think we need to talk about just how much longer Falco's limbs are.

I think the range difference is more like Marth to Lucina with the other fact that Falco and Fox have different moves, so it's more like Marth and Roy. So, their Ftilts would have Falco's leg inches longer than Fox's, but the way Falco hits with Bair already makes it different in range than Fox's; Falco sticks his leg out while Fox leans back and whips his leg out. Now, between Ganondorf and Captain Falcon? More different since Ganondorf's like 7' 6 1/2" while Captain Falcon's 6 foot something, 6' 5" maybe which would be 13 1/2 inches of difference. Falco is supposedly 6' 2" while Fox is 5' 8", so yeah, just 6 inches off. Then again, the game might not be using those heights since Twilight Princess Link was shorter than Zelda which was reversed in Skyward Sword, but in Smash, they're similar heights, Snake was taller than Falco in Brawl, but Snake's supposed to be 5' 10" and he's slouching too while Falco's standing slightly on his tip toes, and Bowser's height varies from game to game not to mention Olimar's height.

 

[Vipermoon]

Okay so Marth's Dtilt in Melee was -6 tipper and -7 non-tipper (I'm assuming this is for OoS). Tipper Fair is +0. Seems tippers and non-tippers probably share the same hitlag/lack of modifier. The only difference in hitlag being damage.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I think the only thing Luigi really "needs" right now as far as competitive health is concerned is to make Luigi Cyclone a semispike or increase its startup. It's simply far too easy for Luigi to get kills at 95% with just a single grab covered by a Fireball approach, with 5.6 Fair there to punish attempts to jump away. Making the Cyclone either a semispike or set (low) knockback lets him keep his obscene damage output, but doesn't let him sneak away with a kill just as easily with all his other tools in consideration.


Basically, Diddy-fy him.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think the only thing Luigi really "needs" right now as far as competitive health is concerned is to make Luigi Cyclone a semispike or increase its startup. It's simply far too easy for Luigi to get kills at 95% with just a single grab covered by a Fireball approach, with 5.6 Fair there to punish attempts to jump away. Making the Cyclone either a semispike or set (low) knockback lets him keep his obscene damage output, but doesn't let him sneak away with a kill just as easily with all his other tools in consideration.


Basically, Diddy-fy him.

When are people going to realize that Luigi isn't a problem. Why Diddy-fy him? It's like everytime a character gets something good we're so quick to hate it. Luigi has plenty of bad matchups. He's balanced. Diddy wasn't. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

 

[Ikes]

I think the only thing Luigi really "needs" right now as far as competitive health is concerned is to make Luigi Cyclone a semispike or increase its startup. It's simply far too easy for Luigi to get kills at 95% with just a single grab covered by a Fireball approach, with 5.6 Fair there to punish attempts to jump away. Making the Cyclone either a semispike or set (low) knockback lets him keep his obscene damage output, but doesn't let him sneak away with a kill just as easily with all his other tools in consideration.


Basically, Diddy-fy him.

I'm not a luigi expert but isnt his cyclone already incredibly easy to DI out of before the last hit? I feel like it doesnt need much of a nerf due to its escapability (and to an extent, its punishability since it has decent endlag)

 

[Ffamran]

Or we could leave Luigi alone and work on the other underwhelming characters. I mean, we could add 5 frames to his Fireball endlag, but is it really, really a horrible problem that destroys characters? Not really and other characters deal well with them like Toon Link who already plays at a range beyond Fireballs.

Would anyone be against Dr. Mario running as fast as Luigi or slightly slower like Falco? I wouldn't since it's kind of stupid that he's slower than Triple D. It wouldn't make Dr. Mario significantly better, but it would help Dr. Mario with getting around and not being slower than a heavyweight and two people in dresses which already makes it difficult for them to run. It would still stick with Dr. Mario moves slower than Mario unlike in Melee where Dr. Mario's air speed was higher than Mario and he ran at the same speed as Mario. Hell, making Dr. Mario's running speed the same as Luigi's would make Dr. Mario as fast as he was in Melee.

How about Robin's running speed? Robin running as fast as Link? Sure, why not since they both carry a crapton of gear with them. Yes, yes, Tomes are heavy, but it doesn't justify Robin being even slower than Ganondorf and Jigglypuff who actually has air speed to counter her slow ground speed. It would help, but it wouldn't do anything insane. Now, if Robin ran as fast as Sheik, that might be weird, but even still, it wouldn't be game-breaking as Robin's still average to slow when attacking.

What about reduced end lag on projectiles for other characters like (Dr.) Mario, Falco, and Samus? It would help them fight at range better. Nerfs should happen when there's something severe and overwhelming, buffs should happen when there are things underwhelming, and changes, like what happened to Falco's Uair, Charizard and Link's D-throw, and Marth and Lucina's jab are there for when things don't need a "buff" or a "nerf", but to function differently and for the better. That's how I view things.

Seriously though, is Luigi really the green menace that people make him to be? He's a more volatile character than Mario who being the "balanced fighter" he is, should probably goes 60:40 at most, 40:60 at worst, and 50:50 for the entire cast. That's actually fantastic since Mario wouldn't have major weaknesses and while he wouldn't have major advantages, if Mario did go 50:50 with the entire cast, then he's completely viable and never in danger of having to be counterpicked like Luigi, Captain Falcon, Fox, Yoshi, ROB, Wario, Marth, Robin, etc.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Or we could leave Luigi alone and work on the other underwhelming characters. I mean, we could add 5 frames to his Fireball endlag, but is it really, really a horrible problem that destroys characters? Not really and other characters deal well with them like Toon Link who already plays at a range beyond Fireballs.

Would anyone be against Dr. Mario running as fast as Luigi or slightly slower like Falco? I wouldn't since it's kind of stupid that he's slower than Triple D. It wouldn't make Dr. Mario significantly better, but it would help Dr. Mario with getting around and not being slower than a heavyweight and two people in dresses which already makes it difficult for them to run. It would still stick with Dr. Mario moves slower than Mario unlike in Melee where Dr. Mario's air speed was higher than Mario and he ran at the same speed as Mario. Hell, making Dr. Mario's running speed the same as Luigi's would make Dr. Mario as fast as he was in Melee.

How about Robin's running speed? Robin running as fast as Link? Sure, why not since they both carry a crapton of gear with them. Yes, yes, Tomes are heavy, but it doesn't justify Robin being even slower than Ganondorf and Jigglypuff who actually has air speed to counter her slow ground speed. It would help, but it wouldn't do anything insane. Now, if Robin ran as fast as Sheik, that might be weird, but even still, it wouldn't be game-breaking as Robin's still average to slow when attacking.

What about reduced end lag on projectiles for other characters like (Dr.) Mario, Falco, and Samus? It would help them fight at range better. Nerfs should happen when there's something severe and overwhelming, buffs should happen when there are things underwhelming, and changes, like what happened to Falco's Uair, Charizard and Link's D-throw, and Marth and Lucina's jab are there for when things don't need a "buff" or a "nerf", but to function differently and for the better. That's how I view things.

Seriously though, is Luigi really the green menace that people make him to be? He's a more volatile character than Mario who being the "balanced fighter" he is, should probably go 60:40 at most, 40:60 at worst, and 50:50 for most of the cast. That's actually fantastic since Mario wouldn't have major weaknesses and while he wouldn't have major advantages, if Mario did go 50:50 with the entire cast, then he's completely viable and never in danger of having to be counterpicked like Luigi, Captain Falcon, Fox, Yoshi, ROB, Wario, Marth, Robin, etc.

I agree with everything except the thing about Robin's run speed. If he were as fast as Sheik it would be comepletely game breaking.

 

[Nu~]

Give Pac-Man's grab the link treatment and fix its dead zones while they're at it... I swear, that is the only thing holding him back. You would be surprised how many matchups would change for us if his grab was better.

But I agree that characters like Robin and Samus should be buffed. Their flaws are too glaring to make up for their OK strengths.

People wouldn't be begging for shiek nerfs if more characters had the right tools to contest her.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Give Pac-Man's grab the link treatment and fix its dead zones while they're at it... I swear, that is the only thing holding him back. You would be surprised how many matchups would change for us if his grab was better.

But I agree that characters like Robin and Samus should be buffed. Their flaws are too glaring to make up for their OK strengths.

People wouldn't be begging for shiek nerfs if more characters had the right tools to contest her.

Take one look at Project M. That's what it looks like when everyone has the tools to contest: people begging for everyone to get nerfed.

 

[TriTails]

BTW, what do you think of Ice Balls? I remember Boss using them once, but not recently.

It's not punishable on hit at freeze percents (50% to higher I suppose. 42% on Mario? IDK much) but it moves reaaaaally slowly, has more startup, deals 4%, and doesn't really combo to anything. Useful for throwing people off though, but I prefer normal Fireballs. Can be used to litter the stage however.

I think the only thing Luigi really "needs" right now as far as competitive health is concerned is to make Luigi Cyclone a semispike or increase its startup. It's simply far too easy for Luigi to get kills at 95% with just a single grab covered by a Fireball approach, with 5.6 Fair there to punish attempts to jump away. Making the Cyclone either a semispike or set (low) knockback lets him keep his obscene damage output, but doesn't let him sneak away with a kill just as easily with all his other tools in consideration.


Basically, Diddy-fy him.

The only ways Luigi is going to kill you at 95% with HooHahNado are:
1. Your DI and SDI are atrocious.
2. You're a floaty middle to lightweight.
3. You let him rise really high.
4. Ceiling problems.
5. He is at max rage.

Dr. Mario SHOULD ran as fast as Luigi. I wouldn't even be mad if he was the median of Mario's and Luigi's run speed (1.55). He is slower AND weaker than Luigi? We already saw what happened to 64 Luigi. Don't make this repeat.

 

[Nu~]

Take one look at Project M. That's what it looks like when everyone has the tools to contest: people begging for everyone to get nerfed.

Well then that's just something I don't understand. If more characters can compete and thereby create a more diverse meta, why would you want everyone toned down? It doesn't have to go down the brawl minus route to have a better balanced game. Strengthen the characters that can't even compete at a decent level. No one should have to immediately stand out as "worst character in the game"

I understand that this may sound a bit idealistic, but that's my vision of a better balanced game.

 

[Antonykun]

eh so has anyone noticed how quickly Swordfighter's jab one's endlag is?
You can cover a whiffed Jab 1 with a down tilt really quickly or even a dash grab if you think they might shield a jab 2/3.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Well then that's just something I don't understand. If more characters can compete and thereby create a more diverse meta, why would you want everyone toned down? It doesn't have to go down the brawl minus route to have a better balanced game. Strengthen the characters that can't even compete at a decent level. No one should have to immediately stand out as "worst character in the game"

I understand that this may sound a bit idealistic, but that's my vision of a better balanced game.

Then we're good. Because nobody stands out as the worst character in the game.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Then we're good. Because nobody stands out as the worst character in the game.

Only because we have difficulty deciding who is the worst of the several candidates.

 

[Nu~]

Then we're good. Because nobody stands out as the worst character in the game.

You sure about that? Considering that these characters


keep coming up as "underpowered" and "def bottom 5"

 

[Antonykun]

Then we're good. Because nobody stands out as the worst character in the game.

cough cough cough cough
question? What is samus's desing in this game? If its defensive turteling until she can get herself a charge shot then why is that her keep away tools aren't that good or her rolls are really poor or she can't confirm into a chargeshot?