Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

Guess we're back to square one. Perhaps a new thread should be made instead to discuss those who we have near zero in-depth discussion about.

 

[Ampetrix]

My Top 5

My bottom 5

The rest of top 10

No order and just my opinion =)

I'm glad Olimar isn't bottom 5 in your opinion.

Guess we're back to square one. Perhaps a new thread should be made instead to discuss those who we have near zero in-depth discussion about.

This.

 

[MisterVisceral]

Yeah, seems pretty clear top 8 is established.
I haven't seen too much discussion about Fox up here lately, so I'm actually pretty glad he's up there. Albeit surprised. What makes Fox so good?

As for Ness, great aerial game, amazing dash attack, and solid projectiles. Ground game isn't great, but it's easy to get opponents in the air with dash attack. PK Thunder Ness-missile is a solid kill move, too.

EDIT: Hey Conda. What characters do you want to talk about?

 

[deepseadiva]

Guess we're back to square one. Perhaps a new thread should be made instead to discuss those who we have near zero in-depth discussion about.

Trying to control discussion of a thread titled "what do you think" is basically futile. I know a lot of characters don't get discussion, but also understand that people actually are not playing those characters. Like at all. Miis aren't allowed in For Glory (what everyone is basing their opinions on) and their metagames are non-existant. The Mii Swordsman board has three threads. xD

 

[Conda]

Yeah, seems pretty clear top 8 is established.

[....]

Hey Conda. What characters do you want to talk about?

Thanks for asking
I proposed on the previous page that we should focus discussion on characters that slip under the spotlight. I brought up three characters to zero in on, and we can let that discussion ride until we feel it's time to talk about a new batch of characters.

It's not about who I want to be discussed, it's whose metagames aren't developed due to lack of popularity and discussion. We feel like half of the roster isn't important enough to even talk about, and have essentially made the roster as small as SSB64/Melee's with who we consider discussion-worthy.

This makes those characters have an even smaller chance of placing well in tournaments, as their playerbase doesn't have the resources or metagame development to combat the current more-obviously-threatening characters.
If you want to learn how to be a good Sheik and counter many other characters and strategies that are dominant, you'll be well on your way. If you're a DK or G&W player, however - tough luck, you're on your own.

When you main an ignored character, you're basically part of a tiny team of people trying to help each other get better and deal with the strategies that are currently dominant.

When you main a popular character, you're part of a huge team of hundreds of players that are teaching each other how to get better and remain dominant.

This furthers the divide. While some characters are better than others, the divide should not be as extreme as it is currently. We're seeing HUGE differences in metagame growth rate.

Pretend you were deciding to main Samus or Falco. Visit their thread. Then decide you're gonna go main Sheik or Pac-Man or Lucario. See the difference? There's no reason to main an unpopular character currently, as you have nobody to talk to about improving, and no in-depth discussion to research for yourself.


This is a problem when it happens in any competitive game - the metagame develops around only a certain subsection of the roster having any reasonable metagame development.
I don't blame it for happening, but that doesn't mean it isn't avoidable. It has taken effect on the discussion that takes place, and it affects the development and growth of characters that are not part of the 10-15 we regularly talk about in any sort of depth.

edit:

So when you watch a tournament match of a Toon Link vs a Sheik, you know for a fact that the Sheik player has way more development fuelling their performance than the Toon Link player. The Sheik player has threads upon threads upon mentions in other threads about matchup info, custom moves, combo chains, techniques, and so forth.
Their metagame is very developed, and the player is not playing their character the way you would 2 weeks ago.

Meanwhile the Toon Link player has barely any of that fuelling their performance, as there's barely any of that information and development to help their characters' communal metagame growth. They're basically limited by what they can discover all on their own.

 

[Locke 06]

Mega Man boards are pretty active for a character that gets minimal discussion on this thread. We even have almost complete frame data. (I see you Marths)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I'll throw out some characters I'm not feeling and why

Luigi - I am simply not finding his neutral game particularly effective. Fireballs are nice not in that "fireballs are nice" but in that well they have use and they're reducing pressure. Mach Cyclone boosts recovery but it's rather linear and vertical. Basically Luigi's pathing is rather clear outside of Quick/Green Missile for horizontal use. D-throw puts in work as does B-throw but U-throw doesn't seem to lead to much nor does it do particular damage. Im just not finding a rhythm and feel like the reward I get for going in, being in range, or being approached is miniscule.

Olimar - 1 Pikmin is 33% of your total pool. Throw a Pikmin, do a D-smash, you're tapped out. Move around one Pikmin desyncs now you have 2, If you F-smash at this point you now can't practically D-smash. Throw 2 Pikmin and again issues. With Pikmin AI being a problem, and the miniscule amount of Pikmin you either find yourself pressed for options or your options lead into vulnerability as you wait for Pikmin to recover. I feel like just an AI update would shoot my opinion up drastically but I don't feel like it's wise to bring Olimar into anything remotely serious. He is too inconsistent due to things outside of his control, his Smashes are reflectable, his Smashes press his options due to pikmin recovery and his neutral B is significantly conflicting with his overall kit. Throw 3 pikmin limit yourself to the bare minimum. Olimar feels like he has a really botched version of Robins cooldown system and it doesn't work.

Mii Swordsman - Laggy. That's just a way to sum up the Swordsman. His projectile game is slow, pretty much everything he does is slow and the reward isn't even great, except for maybe Gale Strike,n-air and u-air. I just don't see the validity except if your looking for a swordsman with a pro- wait there is Link, Tlink and the pits. So what can he do that they don't? Well he has Counter over them and Reversal strike. Frankly to me the whole choice of Mii Swordsman vs Link/Tlink/Pits...is his down special. He doesn't do anything else over them from what I can tell. Given the pissy range of Reversal strike and the typical infrequent useage of counters. He doesn't have a viable niche from what I can tell so far. Maybe im pants-over-backwards wrong but if I look at Swordsman vs Link, Swordsman vs Tlink and Swordsman vs Pit. What the hell am I getting? I may be off because I need to play more with different sizes. From what I can tell I think average isn't good. Tall and Fat is decent because the size of your sword is quite large, and you'll atleast beat out TL in range. If you go small I dont think you get enough out of it. The lag time is still rather considerable regardless.
Shuriken of Light basically seconds as a "I want something else instead of Chakram" and then it becomes considerable. I suppose its not bad to have that kind of back-up option for customs. The deal is what is your Side-B if not Chakram. Side 1 can KO but it's like Lil mac's Haymaker gone wrong. Can be charged but even if it doesnt it goes a considerable amount of room on a small mii, doesn't stop at the ledge and can't be acted out of. It is not safe on Shield, it gets through some counters. It's just a really risky move in general Slash Launcher is laggy to boot. In Fact I'd say in general this thing stretches too far on a Small Mii to be practical. 2/3rds of FD basically are not safe to use it on because you'll SD if they spotdodge, on a larger Mii this isn't a problem. A smaller Mii basically has Chakram or Slash launcher and Slash Launcher is iffy. With Chakram being taken Shuriken goes on the back burner. Blurring blade isn't noteworthy either outside of maybe edgeguarding.

 

[popsofctown]

Small swordsmen get less lag

 

[Conda]

Mega Man boards are pretty active for a character that gets minimal discussion on this thread. We even have almost complete frame data. (I see you Marths)

Agreed. It's also not only about what characters have better resource threads, but what characters have people playing them in a setting where their metagame gets pushed further and further. When a Marth player goes up against a Duck Hunt in a tournament, was he able to watch many videos prior, or read about how to counter DH's strategies, or learn about how another Marth player defeated one of the best DHs around?

Sheik, Rosa, Ness, etc will be ahead of the curve when it comes to these sorts of metagame developments, which someone who mains G&W or Samus will barely ever have a chance of having if things continue the way they've been going.

Due to the divide, we cannot really conclude that 'Samus sucks' if a Samus loses against a Sheik at a tournament, as the Sheik player has a very sturdy and developed metagame that is informing and improving each of their decisions in a battle. Meanwhile Samus' metagame is basically at the level Sheik's was during week 1.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Small swordsmen get less lag

Its true but his hitboxes are rather minor. In fact I feel its very pronounced compared to Brawler. Smallest Mii carries a toothpick and the largest Mii carries a broadsword basically. The fluidity of a small Mii isn't bad but the range is so pissy, and an average mii is literally too average to do anything right.

 

[Mr.CreamCakes]

Tbh I think that zelda could be high tier

She has a good recovery which can kill at 80-90

She can camp well

She has combos

She has great kill power

She has a great offstage game

RC pivot grab

And she can stop approuchs with phantom

She is seriously buffed I mean u guys have seen nairo right?

 

[The Real Gamer]

She is seriously buffed I mean u guys have seen nairo right?

Have you seen Trela? Zard is clearly top 5.

There are going to be amazing players with every character in the game it's going to take a lot more than early meta gameplay videos to determine who will end up where on the tier list.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I'll throw out some characters I'm not feeling and why

Luigi - I am simply not finding his neutral game particularly effective. Fireballs are nice not in that "fireballs are nice" but in that well they have use and they're reducing pressure. Mach Cyclone boosts recovery but it's rather linear and vertical. Basically Luigi's pathing is rather clear outside of Quick/Green Missile for horizontal use. D-throw puts in work as does B-throw but U-throw doesn't seem to lead to much nor does it do particular damage. Im just not finding a rhythm and feel like the reward I get for going in, being in range, or being approached is miniscule.

You think Luigi's reward is terrible?

*goes back to Mario boards to cry in a corner*

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mii swordsman specials have so much overlap its ridiculous. His buttons are good though, so that's nice. Good jab, d-tilt, and his nair is the stuff of legend. Really good footsies. Most of specials are unremarkable. Gale Strike and Power Thrust are nice. Power Thrust is Marths Dashing Assault on steroids so its pretty damn sick.

Brawler is better though imo.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Could you elaborate more on this? It's not a viewpoint I'm seeing. Palutena seems much more flexible than Ganon and I'm not seeing the comparison beyond model size (lol) and a handful of move similarities.

Think of it this way. Look at Alph and the Koopalings, reskinned designs of the original Olimar and Bowser Jr.

When Sakurai's team were designing Palutena, they took Ganon and reskinned him, changed her move animations, changed her attributes, etc. Palutena was redesigned from Ganondorf.

This doesn't mean that she'll share the same tier position with him, or play similar to him as @Nairo was suggesting, this should mean nothing in relations to tiers in general. Her moves and attributes were redesigned & changed completely, but her main body structure was taken from Ganondorf. None of this should matter with her tier placing, this is something you brought up here and I'm just clarifying on.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mega Man boards are pretty active for a character that gets minimal discussion on this thread. We even have almost complete frame data. (I see you Marths)

Some characters have active boards for reasons other than purely being high tier. Character popularity and an interesting playstyle can result in a committed playerbase that develops the character's meta even if the character isn't high tier. For example, Brawl Ganon and Link got way more players than they probably should've given their lack of competitive merit because of this, and I always found their boards to be way more active than those of other similarly trash but less popular characters like Zelda and Puff when I lurked back in the day. Unfortunately this can skew the development of certain characters and hence their results and perception. Eventually underrated characters are usually picked up and developed to their limit, at least if the game lasts long enough, but the uneven development of different characters can be problematic.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Main things to take from Xanadu:

-Don't underestimate Robot, else you're at the mercy of buffed Uair shenanigans and buffed Gyro tricks.

-Robin has an uphill fight with Diddy.

-Actually, if Diddy loses, it's because the Diddy messed up.
-Levin Sword is hereby christened as "Leffen Sword".

 

[kackamee]

I feel like the lack of Bowser in people's top 10 suprises me. Why did he fall off the scale so quickly? He's still extremely good in my opinion.

I think Samus is a character who is good, but doesn't have very much potential though I could be wrong.

 

[Conda]

Main things to take from Xanadu:

-Robin has an uphill fight with Diddy.

Disagree with that conclusion, if drawn from Xanadu. Nairo particularly just started playing worse during those last sets. The commentators made it clear what was going on, and it definitely wasn't a character-based fault.

Nairo's change in playstyle halfway through the final set was the main contributor to the swings in the grand finals. Not the character matchup, but Nairo's swing in effectiveness during set 2.
Sometimes the players' abilities have a larger effect on a match than the characters they use - this was one of those times.

In set 2, Nairo was just getting hit by everything. Any character he played ended the same way - Dark Pit and Zelda. But he got his composure back for the last set and started performing well again.

Not everything is about character matchups, sometimes a player's performance has a much larger effect. It was just obvious in this case as Nairo swapped characters and we saw the result of that (not good) - the problem was how he was playing at the time, which he resolved by the last set.

 

[mimgrim]

I'm very much an outspoken hater of Luigi. I think he's one of the worst characters in the game cause of the very insubstantial changes he received compared to most of the other characters, especially regarding his terrible recovery.

Custom moves give him one of the best recoveries in the game.

Please, for the love of all that is sacred, start factoring in custom moves, people.

It's not too unreasonable that most people by now should have all or most of the moves by now. Hell I just finished getting all of the moves myself about an hour ago.

Luigi isn't complete crap for one reason. Fireballs.

Seriously man, that nonsense is almost as good as ZSS Paralyzer. Minus the reliable followups obviously, but for pure control in midrange? Luigi's Fireball is surprisingly effective. Forces you to slow down a lot and lets him actually try to fight you.

But yeah he's mostly not that good. He does do insane damage per hit and has aforementioned fireballs though.

Honestly. I don't think Fireballs are all that great. Of his projectiles I prefer Iceball the most, which I think does a better job of what you are describing as what Fireballs do.

Personally I think that the fact the Luigi is mostly unchanged is a point for him in this game. The engine feels better for him and he still has those fast aerials that will end in SH before he lands. Plus some of the custom moves he has are enough of a buff for him. I don't think he's amazing or anything. But I don't think he's that bad either.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I feel like the lack of Bowser in people's top 10 suprises me. Why did he fall off the scale so quickly? He's still extremely good in my opinion.

I think Samus is a character who is good, but doesn't have very much potential though I could be wrong.

He's got common flaws, big hitbox, stuff like that. I see him in mid, mid-high. He's fundamentally sound and quite honest, his kit works with his Side-B a lot better too! A command grab in the hands of THIS Bowser's moveset is excellent.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I feel like the lack of Bowser in people's top 10 suprises me. Why did he fall off the scale so quickly? He's still extremely good in my opinion.

I think Samus is a character who is good, but doesn't have very much potential though I could be wrong.

Bowser has way too many counters...honestly.

Not a terrible character...just being huge is the worst weakness ever in Smash.

 

[kyoskue]

I think we could use some guidance to help focus discussion in this thread to characters that we generally don't focus on as much as others. This would help us talk about a wider array of characters in depth and critically, and not simply say our first impressions and move on. We will all gain a better understanding of the game as a result.

The character forums for these characters may be very slow, their metagames may be under-developed, or they could simply be not understood completely. These are characters that could use the discussion and metagame conversation to help their potential be realised.

Feel free to discuss these characters for a few pages in-depth and critically, and discuss their actual competitive potential. Remember - to keep this discussion healthy and helpful to fellow posters and readers, we have to focus on Smash 4 itself. Focusing on nerfs or buffs aren't what is important and are part of what have prevented certain characters from being taken seriously enough to be discussed (ie Falco and MK).

Also, even if a character bores you, that doesn't mean a characters' meta is deserving of being underdeveloped and undiscussed. Discussing the game intelligently is interesting and helpful to us as well as readers who are trying to learn a thing or two.

So let's start with talking about these guys:
DK
Luigi
Duck Hunt

Do not worry about talking about tiers or whether or nor they are in the 'top 10'. Discuss their tools and metagame potential, as this is the kind of in-depth discussion many characters need right now to grow.

I wouldn't mind doing that, but another way we could go about it is for us to make a thread about characters and moves that have unusual properties to see if we can pin them down better.
I try to go through as many threads for every character that I can to find things that we're uncertain of as a community and see if I can't figure it out. So far I've got the sliding counter, the differences between Pit and Dark Pit, and Villager's Lloid momentum glitch under my belt, but it'd be sooo much easier if it was catalogued in one place.

And I don't just mean glitches and tiny nearly useless things, I mean unexpected applications of moves, interesting theoretical speculation, and so on. Without doing any research into the unknowns then our discussing the characters isn't going to change anything, because we only talk about what we know, or THINK we know already.
Maybe if we can theorycraft decent counter-strategies against some of the more popular characters with ones nobody uses then we can get people interested in further exploring their potential. I feel that if we could get a lot of the unknowns out of the way and make characters seem more approachable that people would naturally gravitate towards them.

I think that another big thing that we need to decide collectively is whether or not Custom Moves are going to be a part of the meta game, because that'll make a big difference in tier lists, I think.
It also begs the question whether or not any moves will be banned for either being OP or flat-out better than the other options, like how I'm assuming Mario's Gust Cape is pretty much the same but better because of the massive wind push.

 

[Ffamran]

Bowser has way too many counters...honestly.

Not a terrible character...just being huge is the worst weakness ever in Smash.

****** Ganondorf would be hella OP. Warlock Punching shins left and right and stomping toes since 1998.

I... Hate lag, it makes playing as Falco even harder since landing aerials become a pain. Hmm, with lots of characters not being played as much as others, I wonder if people don't know how to handle characters like Falco, Duck Hunt, etc. since they don't see them as often. It's probably a shock for players who rarely see Falco and get hit by his Bair, D-tilt, etc. and see the massive damage they took from one attack.

It was to me when I looked down and saw that his Bair does 13%. I knew it had good knockback and could kill early, but holy hell did I stare at that damage I did to another player and with one hit a couple seconds into the match.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Zelda sucks, Rob sucks too. Their meta seems to have staled already. Sure they were okay to begin with (just like zelda in brawl) but now that they've already demonstrated most of what they can do they are done for.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda sucks, Rob sucks too. Their meta seems to have staled already. Sure they were okay to begin with (just like zelda in brawl) but now that they've already demonstrated most of what they can do they are done for.

Bold statement: Zelda is a better character than ROB.

Zelda unlike ROB actually has very good survivability due to her escapes and is better at pressuring people into KO moves especially since she can cover more options in the positive state with her Up-B. Plus she also actually has legitimate edgeguards while ROB can't really do much to you when you recover low.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

For what ever reaseon people like to think honest characters are okay at best i however think this not the case. my main point is that its all about the player abillity to utilise his tools. my best example. has to be ryuga's ike. like comone hes was beeing bashed as like what the worst smash 4 character but he came in without any gimmicks or tricks and simply out payed his opponents. taking out shieks greninjas and rosalina's. and i think thats a wake up call that this stupid polarization to fast or gimmicky characters is self imposed by the community. For that im sure characters like bowser,falco,pit,( i main pit and have a 66% win rate out of 2000+ on for glory not all were good obviously but i generaly look for player with competition to provide me.) and many more characters people are writing off because lack of kill options or speed ect. Shiek has like 2 kill option yet look at people using her. im rarly lose to shieks because i tend to be wary of them kill moves and we all know shiek is pretty damn weak. people just gotta put in the bloody work. im really trying to find new tech for pit and falco. even if its a ditch effort i deffinitly don't want another melee with 7 characters being used expecially when we have not put in the time and sweat.

sorry for the text wall but i greatly dissagree with the tier lists

 

[A2ZOMG]

Well, people who claimed Ike was the worst character clearly were high if you ask me. Not that Ike is amazing, but his moves are not bad, and he got important buffs like legitimate throw combos, better tilts, actually taking advantage of airdodge mechanics really well for legitimate traps, and overall being hurt considerably less by damage nerfs than most characters (this is especially a big deal when you consider Ike's grab pummel is one of the strongest in the game).

Honestly the main glaring thing Ike is really missing is good edgeguarding, which Eruption 2 addresses.

 

[Kofu]

can someone explain to me the strengths of villager that make him a strong competitor please?

Looks like this post got buried, so I'll do my best to explain what makes Villager viable. I'm not necessarily the best to explain, but maybe others can elaborate.

Villager is a really annoying, zoning character. Lloid Rocket is a decent pressuring tool that Villager can use to cover his approaches. His FAir and BAir are obnoxious ways to make the opponent play Villager's game and disrupt their own. The shots don't do much damage but they go a long way, and all but the shortest characters can be hit with proper spacing. He has a good, if somewhat gimpable, recovery in Balloon Trip that allows him to recover from all but being sent off the screen. He's also generally strong in he air and in his offstage game. Normal Timber has nice KO potential and can ledge trap foes. Pocket is hilarious and can be really threatening in certain matchups, since the pocketed projectiles have a damage multiplier of 1.9.

A few of his custom specials give him even more versatility. Counter Timber produces a sapling that trips opponents, essentially a banana that can't move or be used by the foe for 15 seconds. In tree form, it attacks back if attacked. Villager loses kill lower but it's usually worth it for stage control. Pushy Lloid doesn't go nearly as far, but it's more resilient than the normal version of the move to projectiles and puts more pressure on the target's shield. Extreme Balloon Trip isn't quite as powerful a recovery as the normal version, but it's much safer and makes Villager hard to gimp (it also has good distance though). And for opponents that don't have anything to use Pocket on, Garden is an excellent option. It's got a decent-sized hitbox that deals 10%, plants a flower on the target's head, and has invincibility frames. It can also grab projectiles but the grab radius is smaller and there's no multiplier.

He has some notable weaknesses though. His tilts are all fairly unsafe on shield (max-range DTilt might be safe), and a lot of characters can jump out of the first hit of UTilt. His range is poor outside of projectiles, and his kill power is somewhat lacking. His ground speed is really bad (4th worst run speed). Probably the most obvious flaw is his terrible grab. I feel safe in saying it's the worst grab in the game. Its range is only slightly better than most normal grabs, but in all of its forms (standing, dash, pivot) the full animation takes at least a second if whiffed, and it won't even grab the foe if they're too close to Villager (because he uses a net lol).

Good use of reflectors can also make his day rough. FAir, BAir, FSmash, DA, Lloid Rocket, and Timber after he chops it down can all be blocked or used against Villager by using a reflector (I got an FSmash knocked back in my face by Ness's bat and also got hit by the bat itself; it did at least 50% I swear). His USmash can also be nullified but can't be redirected at Villager. I expect Palutena and Falco to be Villager's worst match-ups in the long run because of this. Palutena has to forgo Super Speed in order to use Reflect Barrier, but it's a worthy trade-off for how hard it shuts Villager down. All of his zoning tactics are rendered nearly useless and he has a very hard time approaching, compounded by the pushback of Reflect Barrier and Villager's terrible grab. Falco's kicked reflector provides similar problems, but it's not quite as bad to deal with since the vertical range isn't as good. I hear that one of his customs, Reflector Void, is even better, but I have no experience using it or fighting against it.

Personally I think Villager's viability will drop a little as people get accustomed to fighting him (Timber Counter will always remain a threat, though). You can't really camp him, but his bad range holds him back significantly. He's definitely one of the most frustrating characters to fight thanks to his unique moveset, and you have to be patient against him if you want to get in. I remember someone mentioning Samus not being a particularly dangerous opponent in Brawl but being really troublesome to fight thanks to her ranged moves, especially for the lower tiers. I think Villager is the same sort of character except at a higher level.

Think of it this way. Look at Alph and the Koopalings, reskinned designs of the original Olimar and Bowser Jr.

When Sakurai's team were designing Palutena, they took Ganon and reskinned him, changed her move animations, changed her attributes, etc. Palutena was redesigned from Ganondorf.

This doesn't mean that she'll share the same tier position with him, or play similar to him as @Nairo was suggesting, this should mean nothing in relations to tiers in general. Her moves and attributes were redesigned & changed completely, but her main body structure was taken from Ganondorf. None of this should matter with her tier placing, this is something you brought up here and I'm just clarifying on.

I wondered if that's what you meant. I can see the figure similarities but they definitely don't play anything alike. I was grasping at straws trying to find similarities there lol. I'd personally just use the term "model" if that's what you're referring to, not archetype, since an archetype is "the original pattern or model of which all things of the same type are representations or copies" (thanks Merriam-Webster). It's more of the "Brawler-Gunner-Swordfighter" sort of deal than model-based.

 

[Tagxy]

So a pretty stacked online invitational happened with I believe $500 on the line through VGbootcamp. In terms of big names this is probably the most impressive list to date stateside. Results were:

1. Nairo (Robin/Dark Pit)
2. Jtails (Diddy)
3. Vinnie (ROB)
4. Tyrant (Diddy)
5. NAKAT (Ness/Fox)
5. Dabuz (Rosalina)
7. Zero (Fox)
7. ?

Dont remember the rest but there were 16 players. I feel like unless something is being drastically abused ROB and perhaps Robin are being underrated. Not just from the results but watching the videos too. At the very least perhaps more thought should be put into them, Robins shield pressure looks really good.

Also I couldnt tell if it was just wifi/3ds stuff but Rosalinas custom starbit shot did look worrisome/slightly too good.

 

[Ffamran]

For what ever reaseon people like to think honest characters are okay at best i however think this not the case. my main point is that its all about the player abillity to utilise his tools. my best example. has to be ryuga's ike. like comone hes was beeing bashed as like what the worst smash 4 character but he came in without any gimmicks or tricks and simply put payed his opponents. taking out shieks greninjas and rosalina's. and i think thats a wake up call that this stupid polarization to fast or gimmicky characters is self imposed by the community. For that im sure characters like bowser,falco,pit,( i main pit and have a 66% win rate out of 2000+ on for glory not all were good obviously but i generaly look for player with competition to provide me.) and many more characters people are writing off because lack of kill options or speed ect. Shiek has like 2 kill option yet look at people using her. im rarly lose to shieks because i tend to be wary of them kill moves and we all know shiek is pretty damn weak. people just gotta put in the bloody work. im really trying to find new tech for pit and falco. even if its a ditch effort i deffinitly don't want another melee with 7 characters being used expecially when we have not put in the time and sweat.

sorry for the text wall but i greatly dissagree with the tier lists

Well, it's sort of the same deal with Dante in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. I think he has the lowest damaging moves since he's reliant on insane, endless combos like in his home series - I don't remember and I didn't play the game much, but I think they even brought in his jump cancel mechanic along with a move that allows him to cancel out of moves. If he wasn't popular or didn't have a previous iteration so, like if he appeared in an earlier MvC as DMC1 or DMC2 Dante, then he'd basically be Falco of SSB4 who had a play style shock. His popularity and newcomer status allowed people to explore his possibilities in a fighting game. Let's just say that chipping with Dante is like using a chainsaw.

Wesker on the other hand, was kind of broken since he was ludicrously fast - it was fixed from MvC3, I think, in UMvC3.

Then you have Vergil who is still combo-heavy, but he deals much more damage compared to Dante to compensate for his lack of moves - the twins are considered top tier with Vergil being the better of the two.

Ghost Rider is a weird ranger since he doesn't actually shoot things, but uses his chain whip to keep people off. This, unfortunately, makes him considered low-tier not because of his strange, slow play style, but because the game was designed for fast-paced combat. Ghost Rider would be Ganondorf in Brawl who is powerful, but has a lot of things going against him like sluggishness.

Iron Fist has no ranged attacks and is reliant on combos. Guy's powerful, but has nothing to fend against rangers. Once again, considered low-tier despite him being fairly powerful, although straightforward.

So, UMvC3 is sort of like Brawl and Melee where there's an evident play style and noticeable imbalance where there's a handful of great or broken characters and lots of characters who cannot keep up at all.

The King of Fighter XIII is what SSB4 is going for where pretty much everyone is viable, but there's going to be obvious counters and poor match ups. Let's take Ganondorf and Shen Woo from KoF XIII. Both are powerhouses, are straightforward, and lack ranged attacks. They can take on anyone, but it's going to be tough for them with characters like Duck Hunt and King from KoF XIII who are rangers and can control space very well. Duck Hunt and King would fare well against anyone, but fighters like Fox and er... K' who have their own projectiles and can counter or avoid them easily will cause issues for them.

TL;DR: Confirming what you said.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, it's sort of the same deal with Dante in Ultimate Marvel vs. Capcom 3. I think he has the lowest damaging moves since he's reliant on insane, endless combos like in his home series - I don't remember and I didn't play the game much, but I think they even brought in his jump cancel mechanic along with a move that allows him to cancel out of moves. If he wasn't popular or didn't have a previous iteration so, like if he appeared in an earlier MvC as DMC1 or DMC2 Dante, then he'd basically be Falco of SSB4 who had a play style shock. His popularity and newcomer status allowed people to explore his possibilities in a fighting game. Let's just say that chipping with Dante is like using a chainsaw.

Wesker on the other hand, was kind of broken since he was ludicrously fast - it was fixed from MvC3, I think, in UMvC3.

Then you have Vergil who is still combo-heavy, but he deals much more damage compared to Dante to compensate for his lack of moves - the twins are considered top tier with Vergil being the better of the two.

Ghost Rider is a weird ranger since he doesn't actually shoot things, but uses his chain whip to keep people off. This, unfortunately, makes him considered low-tier not because of his strange, slow play style, but because the game was designed for fast-paced combat. Ghost Rider would be Ganondorf in Brawl who is powerful, but has a lot of things going against him like sluggishness.

Iron Fist has no ranged attacks and is reliant on combos. Guy's powerful, but has nothing to fend against rangers. Once again, considered low-tier despite him being fairly powerful, although straightforward.

So, UMvC3 is sort of like Brawl and Melee where there's an evident play style and noticeable imbalance where there's a handful of great or broken characters and lots of characters who cannot keep up at all.

The King of Fighter XIII is what SSB4 is going for where pretty much everyone is viable, but there's going to be obvious counters and poor match ups. Let's take Ganondorf and Shen Woo from KoF XIII. Both are powerhouses, are straightforward, and lack ranged attacks. They can take on anyone, but it's going to be tough for them with characters like Duck Hunt and King from KoF XIII who are rangers and can control space very well. Duck Hunt and King would fare well against anyone, but fighters like Fox and er... K' who have their own projectiles and can counter or avoid them easily will cause issues for them.

TL;DR: Confirming what you said.

im sorry lol dumb question but TL DR?

 

[Ffamran]

im sorry lol dumb question but TL DR?

Too Long; Didn't Read. Basically what everyone says when they see a massive wall of text.

 

[A2ZOMG]

im sorry lol dumb question but TL DR?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=TL+DR

Yeah, seems pretty clear top 8 is established.
I haven't seen too much discussion about Fox up here lately, so I'm actually pretty glad he's up there. Albeit surprised. What makes Fox so good?

As for Ness, great aerial game, amazing dash attack, and solid projectiles. Ground game isn't great, but it's easy to get opponents in the air with dash attack. PK Thunder Ness-missile is a solid kill move, too.

EDIT: Hey Conda. What characters do you want to talk about?

Fox runs fast, does good damage, and lasers force you to to not turtle against him. And he has other good things like a solid Jab cancel, aerials and Smashes that are all good for KOing, a solid recovery, and a reflector that can be used to stall his momentum to avoid traps while trying to land.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Too Long; Didn't Read. Basically what everyone says when they see a massive wall of text.

aww ya didnt read it all. sob but hey what you said captured some of my points then.

 

[Ffamran]

aww ya didnt read it all. sob but hey what you said captured some of my points then.

No, I was giving myself a TL;DR since mine's a massive wall of text. It's a self-deprecating summary.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I feel like the lack of Bowser in people's top 10 suprises me. Why did he fall off the scale so quickly? He's still extremely good in my opinion.

Because the game released and people realized there's 50+ other characters to try and finding 7+ characters that're just plain better than Bowser on both paper and gameplay along with the fact when he was deemed OP in the demo characters like robin DHD Greninja weren't shown yet.

Yoshi Sheik Rosalina ZSS Diddy Robin Lucario Greninja etc. list goes on.

My question for this thread now, something that I brought up numerous times + asked Gheb about. (for japan videos)
Where all the Yoshi's.

Can top players literally not play the character for how odd he feels from other characters?
Xanadu, keitaro's stuff, crossfire, Shovewave etc. No videos of Yoshi and if there is one or two lingering videos, it's most definitely somebody who doesn't know the character very well and didn't main him in Brawl to have a decent grasp on how he works when converting from brawl to Smash 4 even if he's different in some places.

Not saying Yoshi isn't OP, just whenever I think of all the posts on FB smashboards and whatever else complaining about Yoshi being broken and all that, but then see almost 0 videos/results of him in any tournaments. It makes me wonder is all.

Yes I'm aware of Yoshidora winning gf against that Ganon but that's the only thing quite honestly lol.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah I wanna see more Yoshi too honestly, he seems pretty swagger. Dunno who's saying Yoshi is blatantly OP or anything I just think he's solid and to be frank he's earned it for being lukewarm for about 3 games straight. About time he climbed to the high end.

 

[Shaya]

I'm pretty certain Yoshi is the most used character on Japanese For Glory.
Other than that tons of Greninja.

Everyone else is honestly quite rare... some obvious gate keeper characters being shown, but when I see the hiragana/katakana, I know I'm either dealing with backwards roll, water shuryken dash upsmash the character, or dash attack and egg throw the character (Yoshi doesn't need no back rolls, he is a strong independent lizard who just presses win buttons, why would he need to press passive buttons?)

 

[InfinityCollision]

Yoshi traditionally falls in that category of characters that people don't play much unless they're seriously invested into that character due to a combination of unique mechanics and viability. That's much less true now, but that doesn't exactly translate to an overnight Yoshi boom. It might take a bit, but a rise in the stateside Yoshi population doesn't seem too unreasonable.

I feel like the lack of Bowser in people's top 10 suprises me. Why did he fall off the scale so quickly? He's still extremely good in my opinion.

Bowser's solid, but most people with a brain saw the invitational, said "eh, maybe Bowser doesn't suck this time", and went back to what they were doing. His positive attributes are all elements that favor him out of the gate, which is not to say he sucks now so much as that the rest of the crowd has come around to the same conclusion now that we've got some hard data and have had a chance to see and develop other characters.