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Character Competitive Impressions

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Ikes

Smash Journeyman
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Feb 27, 2015
Messages
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Yoshi's Island
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so I thought about a few balances for Rosaluma

Make her fall speed marginally faster, but keep her weight the same. Reduce her air speed by a small margin. Increase the respawn time of Luma by 3 seconds. Reduce Luma HP by 8. Reduce the hitbox size and duration of uair and dair. reduce the damage of dash attack. Any thoughts on these?

I always thought she was still a little bit too strong on her own, and should rather have been a sort of Ice Climbers replacement, where she's only truly effective with her partner. But with her juggling ability being incredibly strong even without luma, and her aerial mobility and floatiness making her an easy character to play keep away with until she got luma back, I don think this design was followed very much in her design. So by making her partner a little bit easier to remove and increasing the amount of time she has to fare without the partner once it's been removed, and reducing her actual potential on her own, this remedies some of these issues.
 
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Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
is :4ganondorf: a top tier then? what about :4jigglypuff:?

reward alone doesnt make a top tier. you have to possess more. alot more, in fact. :4luigi: possesses more, but not enough to be the top 5 terror people perceive him to be. who started this trend, anyway? i think zero said he was top 5 in a previous video. but here's a psa: i wouldn't believe claims zero makes without solid evidence. zero's known to be a bit of an exaggerator and frankly full of himself. basically a little more extreme version of m2k with additional ego.

mobility is probably one of the most important traits in neutral(if not THE most important), and :4luigi: has a severe deficit of that. if :4luigi: didnt inch along at the speed of a snail, he'd be alot more threatening and probably be the top 5 terror he's perceived to be. also, shielding the fireballs is not the way to go about treating it. avoiding them is a better alternative. how can you avoid them? jumping onto a platform, hit :4luigi:as he comes in because he sure as **** has trouble challenging stuff with his poor range and shielded hits are normally safe since he slides so far back. basically just dont take the fireball.
I don't really understand the callout to ZeRo in this instance. His video and statements have actually been backed up with evidence both in terms of logic and results. Also, ZeRo is not the only top player who thinks that Luigi is top 5. A lot of top players consider Luigi a top 5 character, so limiting the context to just ZeRo is selling Luigi's support short.

Anyway, Luigi doesn't really need mobility in neutral in the same when he has his fireballs which basically skip neutral on their own. They're positive on block, and avoiding them means a commitment. You either lose stage control by retreating and simply getting pressured more or commit to a jump/roll, both of which are punishable. Luigi's fireballs serve as a natural extension of his range and aren't really punishable, like at all. Luigi also has a frame 3 nair that does 12 damage. This move can interrupt a lot of approaches/combos and is an excellent OOS option. Luigi's neutral as a whole -- fireballs especially -- faciliates grabs, which give him enormous rewards. Luigi can actually get behind in neutral and change the entire situation of one grab due to the potency/high damage of his grab follow-ups.

This ignores other major aspects of Luigi that make him a good character as well. He has a mixture of approaches between SH aerials ( dair and retreating fair/RAR bair/nair), dash grab, and fireballs (which are an amazing projectile) that provide him with a variety of mix-ups and effective options in neutral. His high damage aerials make his reward per hit significantly greater than many other characters, especially as they can confirm into each other and grabs. Luigi has perhaps the easiest time confirming kills of any character in Smash 4. At ~100-120% down throw is a guaranteed kill with tornado or bair as a follow-up. Neutral air not only comes out on frame 3, but it can also actually be a potent kill move. FSmash and USmash have very high knockback with low start-up and end lag. Back throw is a kill throw. Up B sweet spot kills absurdly early if you can land it. Tornado can gimp many recoveries effectively. These traits on top of how good fireballs are and how well Luigi's neutral faciliates grabs and their extreme reward make Luigi a solid pick for top 5.
 

Ghostbone

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 20, 2010
Messages
4,665
Location
Australia
mobility is probably one of the most important traits in neutral(if not THE most important), and :4luigi: has a severe deficit of that.
Luigi wins neutral because of fireball, he spams it and the opponent has to react. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have mobility to close in on people.
if :4luigi: didnt inch along at the speed of a snail, he'd be alot more threatening and probably be the top 5 terror he's perceived to be. also, shielding the fireballs is not the way to go about treating it. avoiding them is a better
Oh yes, because luigi will be so sad if you roll into him, or jump in the air and are forced to contest with his aerials that do ridiculous damage with great priority, or just eventually have to land against him where he can catch you with invincible up-smash or a grab.
alternative. how can you avoid them? jumping onto a platform, hit :4luigi:as he comes in because he sure as **** has trouble challenging stuff with his poor range and shielded hits are normally safe since he slides so far back. basically just dont take the fireball.
You've clearly never played vs a competent luigi if you think this is how neutral goes against him.
 

Quickhero

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2014
Messages
565
Location
Pennsylvania
NNID
Quickbobhero
3DS FC
4441-9316-1706
so I thought about a few balances for Rosaluma

Make her fall speed marginally faster, but keep her weight the same. Reduce her air speed by a small margin. Increase the respawn time of Luma by 3 seconds. Reduce Luma HP by 8. Reduce the hitbox size and duration of uair and dair. reduce the damage of dash attack. Any thoughts on these?

I always thought she was still a little bit too strong on her own, and should rather have been a sort of Ice Climbers replacement, where she's only truly effective with her partner. But with her juggling ability being incredibly strong even without luma, and her aerial mobility and floatiness making her an easy character to play keep away with until she got luma back, I don think this design was followed very much in her design. So by making her partner a little bit easier to remove and increasing the amount of time she has to fare without the partner once it's been removed, and reducing her actual potential on her own, this remedies some of these issues.
Look, I hate Rosalina, and I MEAN HATE Rosalina. Smash 4 actually killed my love for Rosalina and replaced it with nothing with anger, and I don't even use her when playing any Mario Kart game anymore, and she was whom I used to primarily play.

With that being said, I don't think Rosalina NEEDS any nerfs, let alone do I think that amount of nerfs are healthy. I think she should have a nerf on how easily she can just stall for Luma, not going to lie, and super armor along with a spamable u-air is just such a silly thing. I think that's really about it and Rosalina would stop being the jankiest character in the game lol. (Keep in mind I didn't say overpowered/broken) Everything else would be a bit overboard.
 
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Djent

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 6, 2010
Messages
2,606
Location
Under The Three Spheres
VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ EDIT: Apparently this is false (the man himself corrected me).

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
 
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NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
Sheik vs Link is just a weird thing to talk about. I can't really tell who's better, even at this point.
I came home from working a 15-hour day today--physically tired, mentally drained, and in dire need of some kind of upper arm massage--and this was the first unread message in this topic for me when I finally logged on to smashboards. At first, I wondered if this were a dream.

Then I saw who posted it, and I realized that not only was it not a dream, but that all was right in the world.
 

Gamegenie222

Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
Joined
Mar 18, 2008
Messages
6,758
Location
Omaha, Nebraska
NNID
Gamegenie222
3DS FC
3411-1825-3363
VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). n FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some :salt:.

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
That's where Shaky went lol. Also Dath beat Master Raven really now I hope that is streamed cause Robin vs Shiek is awful for Robin.
 

FullMoon

i'm just joking with you
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Nov 2, 2014
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6,095
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Rio de Janeiro, Brazil
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INFullMoon
Off-topic but I just love how my gif a few pages ago got 26 likes by itself.

I came home from working a 15-hour day today--physically tired, mentally drained, and in dire need of some kind of upper arm massage--and this was the first unread message in this topic for me when I finally logged on to smashboards. At first, I wondered if this were a dream.

Then I saw who posted it, and I realized that not only was it not a dream, but that all was right in the world.
And this just made my whole month.
 

Freezie KO

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
248
After playing like 10 matches with a good :4sonic: player, I realized that sonic is not FUN AT ALL to play against. Most of the matches I either had to 1.) shield 24/7 and then 2.) be very reactive on everything he does and 3.) gets the most effective punishes.I feel like he restricts some parts of the game play from the opponent by just being so fast and strong. Do anyone else feel like this? Also I would like to how exactly do everyone deal with Sonic and their impressions on him as a character/design aspect
Nobody likes playing against Sonic, even other Sonic mains.
 

Ikes

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Joined
Feb 27, 2015
Messages
477
Location
Yoshi's Island
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Smooth_Moonman
Nobody likes playing against Sonic, even other Sonic mains.
Lucas and Roy made me happy
Sonic makes me want to die
I really do like sonic, I like his games, i like his character and design, but god damn did they have to make him the most unbearable monstrosity in the game, jesus christ it's like they had a press conference and one guy said "THIS GAME IS TOO FUN, WE NEED SOMEONE TO FIX THIS" and then the designers made Sonic the goddamn Hedgehog
 

Yonder

Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
Joined
Oct 9, 2007
Messages
3,549
Location
Canada,BC
NNID
Skullicide
3DS FC
4055-4053-1813
VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). n FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some :salt:.

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
There's still a pretty good variety of characters in tourneys it seems. How long was it into Brawl's lifespan that the game turned MK only?
 

Noa.

Smash Master
Joined
Jan 2, 2008
Messages
3,758
Location
Orlando, Florida
VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). n FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some :salt:.

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
Awesome results I'm going to watch so many of these VODs. Almost everyone on the Ness boards thinks that Ness beats Pikachu. It's something we all believe.

Dath is surprising. I've heard NickRiddle praise him before, but wow I had no idea he was this good. He's improved an incredible amount since November of last year when I played against him.

I'm happy Shaky won haha.
 

Radical Larry

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
1,994
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The Pocket Dimension
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Crimson-Vulcan
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1822-3761-9326
I came home from working a 15-hour day today--physically tired, mentally drained, and in dire need of some kind of upper arm massage--and this was the first unread message in this topic for me when I finally logged on to smashboards. At first, I wondered if this were a dream.

Then I saw who posted it, and I realized that not only was it not a dream, but that all was right in the world.
I'm serious, though, I've fought an amazing Sheik as Link in a tournament and it was hard to determine which was better. I mean, I dominated with Link's projectile game and overall disjoint prowess, but the Sheik player had the combos and knew what they were doing, and this was before the patch, mind you. With Link's buffs in the game in this patch, he seems to have a better chance against Sheik. Grab range and speed are a huge thing to factor for grab game, and Link's got both.
 
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PK Gaming

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
1,315
Location
Canada
VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). n FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some :salt:.

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
Sasuga Dath. The fact that he went that far with Robin alone (in a tournment filled with horrendous matchups no less) is seriously impressive
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
so I thought about a few balances for Rosaluma

Make her fall speed marginally faster, but keep her weight the same. Reduce her air speed by a small margin. Increase the respawn time of Luma by 3 seconds. Reduce Luma HP by 8. Reduce the hitbox size and duration of uair and dair. reduce the damage of dash attack. Any thoughts on these?

I always thought she was still a little bit too strong on her own, and should rather have been a sort of Ice Climbers replacement, where she's only truly effective with her partner. But with her juggling ability being incredibly strong even without luma, and her aerial mobility and floatiness making her an easy character to play keep away with until she got luma back, I don think this design was followed very much in her design. So by making her partner a little bit easier to remove and increasing the amount of time she has to fare without the partner once it's been removed, and reducing her actual potential on her own, this remedies some of these issues.
Your changes might as well be you can only play as Rosalina.
 

NairWizard

Somewhere
Joined
Oct 28, 2014
Messages
1,947
I'm serious, though, I've fought an amazing Sheik as Link in a tournament and it was hard to determine which was better. I mean, I dominated with Link's projectile game and overall disjoint prowess, but the Sheik player had the combos and knew what they were doing, and this was before the patch, mind you. With Link's buffs in the game in this patch, he seems to have a better chance against Sheik. Grab range and speed are a huge thing to factor for grab game, and Link's got both.
Since you said you're serious, I'll respond to this seriously.

The buffs to Link were certainly great, but I find it difficult to envision how Link even uses his disjoints and projectiles in this matchup. Sheik can abuse Link's high startup, punish Link's laggy projectiles (minus the item toss for Bombs) with well-timed Bouncing Fish options, and pressure Link's shield with f-airs of different spacings (there are, like, 10 different ways to space this move).

Link's fastest aerial is 6 frames, and it's not even a sword attack (it's b-air). If Link jumps in the air, Sheik tears him up. If he uses n-air or b-air and she doesn't fully commit to attacking him, she punishes the landing. Both of his fastest moves are commitments.

If Sheik lands in front of Link, what does Link do? His grab, while buffed now, is still laggy on whiff, leaving him open to a Vanish KO. His jab starts on frame 7, whereas Sheik's jab starts on frame 2, f-tilt on frame 5. Sheik is a fastfaller, so it is actually impossible to react to her tomahawk unless you have a read.

Link really does not have the options to contend with Sheik in this matchup. At the very least, the numbers don't support such a claim. Maybe he does alright vs. Sheik's Needles and has some passable tricks in neutral against her, but Sheik's pressure game is too much for him. It would be more believable if there were some video evidence of the matchup in practice. At face value, it's hard to take such a claim seriously.
 
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Starfall11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 28, 2014
Messages
213
3DS FC
4227-1720-3560
How viable do others feel Ike, Marth, and Roy will be as a result of 1.0.8.?

It seems Marth and Ike received considerable buffs, and Roy has a pretty solid combo game and kill power from what I've seen and experienced.

How will the disjointed hitboxes of the swordsmen stack against the top tiers? And how do they stack against each other? I'm very curious since I would put them at mid or upper mid.
 

Thinkaman

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 26, 2007
Messages
6,535
Location
Madison, WI
NNID
Thinkaman
3DS FC
1504-5749-3616
I lost a lot of brain cells after reading a bunch of children complaining that their #1 character might become a #2 or #3 character, and realized that this is exactly why Nintendo doesn't do patch notes.

I was about to make a really angry post, but after a well-advised pause decided I don't want to get banned.

So instead here's a map:



You know what rank Diddy or Rosalina or Falco or Sonic deserves? #33. They ideally deserve to be the 33rd best character--dead center. So does Zelda, so does Lucina, so does poor Samus and Pac-Man. In a perfectly just world, we'd wake up and tomorrow to a bloodbath of a new patch, and that is where all of the characters would be.

The characters will never be perfectly balanced, duh; thank you for that amazing piece of hard-hitting real-world facts, uncle Randy. But every single character who ranks higher than #33 should wake up every day and say a thankful prayer because in a competition that is intended to be fair, better than average is literally better than they deserve.


"Thank you for my brother, my mom and dad, and Flip Jump's invincibility frames."

But then some characters get to be extra thankful, because they live on the other side of the Moat of Blood, Tears, Salt, and Johns, in the Land of the Privileged Elite--a fabled land where the springs taste like honey and all the d-throws lead to kills. They get to wake up every day knowing that 80% of the roster is worse than them, or otherwise just not winning events.

This is why you might notice that the Land of the Privileged Elite is also labeled the Land of No Complaining. This is because the Land of the Privileged Elite is a magical and sacred place, and anyone who would defile this nirvana by complaining is automatically a certified douchenozzle--exactly like a rich child getting upset when another rich kid gets a BMW that is newer than his.


"Sebastian also has 3 gold iWatches, while father would only buy me 2. Life is so unfair."

Sure, there are kids in Africa who don't have even have Smash 4. Some don't even have a WiiU! This doesn't invalidate complaints, nor make me feel better about Sheik Needles. The fact that there will always be someone worse off than you doesn't mean that all complaining is bunk.

But it does mean that complaining while on top of the the food chain makes one aloof and embarrassingly out of touch. Complaining that your top character got nerfed is always implicitly stating that you feel entitled to an advantage.

"But no," you say in an indignant huff, "I just don't want other characters to have an advantage over me. It's not fair that my character got nerfed more than Sheik."

And your character having an advantage over others is somehow more fair? Your character is somehow more entitled to fairness than the entire rest of the cast? Sheik is somehow less deserving of the top than your character?

"But it'd be better if they nerfed Sheik!" Holy crap, shut the **** up and turn 10. Your ability to imagine superior alternatives to an event does not lessen its utility or value. Giving money to charity is a good thing, even if Bill Gates giving money to charity is an even better thing. I can't believe I'm having to explain this, Jesus.

"Disney World would have been so much better with hoverboards and hookers."

The fact is, most people like the idea of balance, but then experience a primal revulsion when they see it first-hand and realize that it actually means that things will be balanced--just like everyone likes the idea of democracy until they realize that sometimes people vote for the wrong guy.

But balance is one of the few objectively good design principles in games, and crucial for healthy competition. It's really good that so many of this game's 1540 matchups are fair, compelling contests for us to delve into and explore.

So whether it's a high-tier or low-tier, nerfed or buffed, just be grateful that your character is as good as they are, and that their worse matchup is no worse than it is. And if you want, ****ing change! There are currently 55 characters, and almost all of them are pretty solid--even the ones south of the Moat.

Having all those viable characters to choose from is the entire point of all this balancing malarkey, anyway.


"But what if I pick the new top character and they nerf them too?"
Then MISSION ****ING ACCOMPLISHED.

Above all, just remember: Patches exists because the devs know what they are doing and what the players to have as much fun with the game as possible. Smash 4 already had the best character balance of the series by a long shot at launch, and the 3 cautious, conservative patches have only improved it. I'm really looking forward to see where things go, and I hope to encounter many of you along the way.



And if anyone says they just want to buff weak characters instead of ever nerfing strong ones, I will snap their Smash 4 disc in half and replace it with Brawl Minus.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 26, 2009
Messages
6,000
Location
New Jersey
NNID
almostlegendary
3DS FC
1349-7081-6691
I lost a lot of brain cells after reading a bunch of children complaining that their #1 character might become a #2 or #3 character, and realized that this is exactly why Nintendo doesn't do patch notes.

I was about to make a really angry post, but after a well-advised pause decided I don't want to get banned.

So instead here's a map:



You know what rank Diddy or Rosalina or Falco or Sonic deserves? #33. They ideally deserve to be the 33rd best character--dead center. So does Zelda, so does Lucina, so does poor Samus and Pac-Man. In a perfectly just world, we'd wake up and tomorrow to a bloodbath of a new patch, and that is where all of the characters would be.

The characters will never be perfectly balanced, duh; thank you for that amazing piece of hard-hitting real-world facts, uncle Randy. But every single character who ranks higher than #33 should wake up every day and say a thankful prayer because in a competition that is intended to be fair, better than average is literally better than they deserve.


"Thank you for my brother, my mom and dad, and Flip Jump's invincibility frames."

But then some characters get to be extra thankful, because they live on the other side of the Moat of Blood, Tears, Salt, and Johns, in the Land of the Privileged Elite--a fabled land where the springs taste like honey and all the d-throws lead to kills. They get to wake up every day knowing that 80% of the roster is worse than them, or otherwise just not winning events.

This is why you might notice that the Land of the Privileged Elite is also labeled the Land of No Complaining. This is because the Land of the Privileged Elite is a magical and sacred place, and anyone who would defile this nirvana by complaining is automatically a certified douchenozzle--exactly like a rich child getting upset when another rich kid gets a BMW that is newer than his.


"Sebastian also has 3 gold iWatches, while father would only buy me 2. Life is so unfair."

Sure, there are kids in Africa who don't have even have Smash 4. Some don't even have a WiiU! This doesn't invalidate complaints, nor make me feel better about Sheik Needles. The fact that there will always be someone worse off than you doesn't mean that all complaining is bunk.

But it does mean that complaining while on top of the the food chain makes one aloof and embarrassingly out of touch. Complaining that your top character got nerfed is always implicitly stating that you feel entitled to an advantage.

"But no," you say in an indignant huff, "I just don't want other characters to have an advantage over me. It's not fair that my character got nerfed more than Sheik."

And your character having an advantage over others is somehow more fair? Your character is somehow more entitled to fairness than the entire rest of the cast? Sheik is somehow less deserving of the top than your character?

"But it'd be better if they nerfed Sheik!" Holy crap, shut the **** up and turn 10. Your ability to imagine superior alternatives to an event does not lessen its utility or value. Giving money to charity is a good thing, even if Bill Gates giving money to charity is an even better thing. I can't believe I'm having to explain this, Jesus.


"Disney World would have been so much better with hoverboards and hookers."

The fact is, most people like the idea of balance, but then experience a primal revulsion when they see it first-hand and realize that it actually means that things will be balanced--just like everyone likes the idea of democracy until they realize that sometimes people vote for the wrong guy.

But balance is one of the few objectively good design principles in games, and crucial for healthy competition. It's really good that so many of this game's 1540 matchups are fair, compelling contests for us to delve into and explore.

So whether it's a high-tier or low-tier, nerfed or buffed, just be grateful that your character is as good as they are, and that their worse matchup is no worse than it is. And if you want, ****ing change! There are currently 55 characters, and almost all of them are pretty solid--even the ones south of the Moat.

Having all those viable characters to choose from is the entire point of all this balancing malarkey, anyway.


"But what if I pick the new top character and they nerf them too?"
Then MISSION ****ING ACCOMPLISHED.

Above all, just remember: Patches exists because the devs know what they are doing and what the players to have as much fun with the game as possible. Smash 4 already had the best character balance of the series by a long shot at launch, and the 3 cautious, conservative patches have only improved it. I'm really looking forward to see where things go, and I hope to encounter many of you along the way.



And if anyone says they just want to buff weak characters instead of ever nerfing strong ones, I will snap their Smash 4 disc in half and replace it with Brawl Minus.
Man f that noise. Rosalina ner was bs. She continues to gerfed while getting nothing. Does she have thjs ridiculous combo game like sheik? Does she have a ridiculous fast moveset? Nope she has nothing really besides uair dair and luma and Nintendo going well out of it's way to kill one of the most unique characters they ever made. Hashtag yes I'm ******** hashtag **** these nerfs hashtag buff rosalina.
 
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Shaya

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I definitely thank flip jump's invincibility everyday for god existing.

But the most important point to take is: no character being nerfed, unless they're suddenly worse than a majority of the cast (the only one thus far has been -arguably- Lucario), have the right to complain.

Either way, I'll probably be mad when ZSS gets it (flip jump doing everything by design is Sakurai's fault, not mine!). But hopefully she's one of the last in line =). Or maybe it'll never happen, if nothing has happened thus far, it's hard to see why not, yet. Perhaps there's still a bit of soul left in Sakurai to keep high skill characters overpowered :3
 
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Woohoo982

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I lost a lot of brain cells after reading a bunch of children complaining that their #1 character might become a #2 or #3 character, and realized that this is exactly why Nintendo doesn't do patch notes.

I was about to make a really angry post, but after a well-advised pause decided I don't want to get banned.

So instead here's a map:


This is why you might notice that the Land of the Privileged Elite is also labeled the Land of No Complaining. This is because the Land of the Privileged Elite is a magical and sacred place, and anyone who would defile this nirvana by complaining is automatically a certified douchenozzle--exactly like a rich child getting upset when another rich kid gets a BMW that is newer than his.


And if anyone says they just want to buff weak characters instead of ever nerfing strong ones, I will snap their Smash 4 disc in half and replace it with Brawl Minus.
G&W is not low tier, and far from being one of the worst in the game.
And he's automatically a douchenozzle because he HARD COUNTERS Ness(no custom), goes good against Mario(no custom), and breaks even with Rosaluma in customs?
Also, speaking of Rosaluma, why is she behind Luigi,Ness,Captain Falcom,Mario and Sonic?
Pacman is not bad
You still put Diddy at #1 despite the nerf?
Why is Bowser not in the Privileged Elite?
Why are GaW and Falco so low?
Why is Gunner < Swordfighter?
There's just no reasoning to this, at all. Can you please explain it?

A Better list
S: :4sheik::4diddy::4luigi::rosalina::4falcon::4ness::4mario::4yoshi:
A+: :4sonic::4fox::4zss::4pikachu::4bowser:
A: :4villager::4rob::4megaman::4ryu::4wario:
A-: :4olimar::4littlemac::4kirby::4shulk::4feroy::4peach:
B+: :4dk::4mewtwo::4gaw::4lucas::4duckhunt::4metaknight:
B: :4greninja::4dk::4lucario::4tlink::4pit::4darkpit:
B-: :4miibrawl::4charizard::4bowserjr::4myfriends:
C+: :4jigglypuff::4falco::4miigun:
C::4robinm::4miisword::4myfriends::4link:
C-: :4marth::4wiifit::4lucina:
F: :4dedede::4zelda::4drmario::4palutena::4samus:
 
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Snokros

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well i suppose your right. personally though i would prefer if characters got buffed so all characters were in the elite instead of everyone being in the middle(guess its a matter of opinion). this doesnt mean that i dont want characters to get nerfed though. but yeah good post.
 
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DungeonMaster

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. She continues to gerfed while getting nothing.
Rosalina needs to be nerfed as badly as Sheik. I'm frigging tired of her insane disjointed priority. That star is like twice as big as it is displayed on screen as soon as it attacks, it's absurd. There is no reason at all for the animations of little star, little galaxy and halo to be so far away from target and have them hit. This drives me nuts.
The A-A-A = death also needs considerably more nerf than was dealt.
 
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Luigi player

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VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). n FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some :salt:.

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
Which stream was it? Maybe it still has it in the stream archive.
I actually have Ness at 9th, now that I've put Luigi over him as well. Maybe Ness is better than Diddy now, but I'm leaning towards no to that.

My top tier looks like this now: (no customs)
:4sheik::rosalina::4pikachu::4fox::4sonic::4zss::4luigi::4diddy::4ness::4yoshi:

I still think Fox is kinda underrated by many since there's not too much talk about him. The fact that he was untouched the whole time from patches is kinda worrying me a little. His jab combos are a little too much imo (but of course that's not the only thing making Fox great). Maybe he's a little lower overall if you account in that he might have a few more losing MUs than the others though...
 
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Quickhero

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Rosalina needs to be nerfed as badly as Sheik. I'm frigging tired of her insane disjointed priority. That star is like twice as big as it is displayed on screen as soon as it attacks, it's absurd. There is no reason at all for the animations of little star, little galaxy and halo to be so far away from target and have them hit. This drives me nuts.
The A-A-A = death also needs considerably more nerf than was dealt.
Oh my god how many times do I have to repeat myself? This game has no character so ridiculously strong that the character invalidates a portion of the cast. (There isn't even a character in this game that invalidates another member of the cast) Nothing needs to be nerfed.

A character is annoying and has something that could maybe be a bit more comparable with a nerf, okay that's fine. However every character (in this case, Rosalina) has (a) flaw(s) enough to make it so he/she is very plausible to beat with practice. I don't like Rosalina either, but I'm not going to say that with enough skill I can't beat a good Rosalina because I certainly can and begging for nerfs is just the silliest thing one can do.

So far every patch so far has been good, but things like this is one of the reasons why I hope Sakurai takes a long break from patching. So many people in this community are just refusing to deal with the character they have/they have troubles with and instead of improving their game, they want other things to be changed. This kind of mentality doesn't help the community at all as it makes us not only not utilize many things to a character's full potential, but also makes us be perceived as spoiled for other fighting game players that play games (like post 2011 UMVC3) that don't have any patches at all and actually have a lot more messy stuff to deal with.

Just want to say that I'm not angry at you specifically, DungeonMaster, but your post is just another example of a person who just doesn't seem to try to improve around characters, as everything you stated, while amazing, isn't so much that it's ridiculous and is in NEED of a nerf. I was first hesitant to make this post because maybe you were just using the wrong word, but the fact that you mentioned Sheik, a character that a lot of people for some reason believe is this impossible beat God of Smash, made me think otherwise.
 
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FallofBrawl

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
631
A+::4sheik::rosalina::4pikachu::4luigi::4ness::4miibrawl::4sonic::4palutena:
A::4zss::4diddy::4mario::4fox::4wario2::4villager::4falcon::4yoshi::4feroy::4peach::4olimar::4lucas::4rob::4ryu::4megaman::4metaknight::4greninja::4pit::4darkpit:
A-::4lucario::4kirby::4shulk::4dk::4bowser::4pacman::4gaw::4bowserjr::4littlemac::4falco::4duckhunt::4drmario::4wiifit::4tlink::4myfriends::4dedede::4link::4miigun::4marth::4robinm:
B+::4ganondorf::4charizard::4samus::4miisword::4jigglypuff::4lucina::4mewtwo::4zelda:
I really don't think there's too much disparity between the best and the worst, especially after this patch.
This is assuming customs are on for Palutena and Mii Fighters (which I think should be the rule set imo)
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I definitely thank flip jump's invincibility everyday for god existing.

But the most important point to take is: no character being nerfed, unless they're suddenly worse than a majority of the cast (the only one thus far has been -arguably- Lucario), have the right to complain.

Either way, I'll probably be mad when ZSS gets it (flip jump doing everything by design is Sakurai's fault, not mine!). But hopefully she's one of the last in line =). Or maybe it'll never happen, if nothing has happened thus far, it's hard to see why not, yet. Perhaps there's still a bit of soul left in Sakurai to keep high skill characters overpowered :3
This game already favors rushdown characters. A character like Rosalina is already at a disadvantage since she's a defensive character. Her options are not as fast as safe as others. She doesn't have kill set ups like others. Now you take away a kill move from a character that relies on bairs and reads to land kills. You also make her ledge trap game less scary. In a non custom meta she's going to get worse for her. People severely overrate this character.

Mean while ZSS is flipling take stocks at 50 not giving a damn about anything.
 

~ Gheb ~

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People still massively overrate Mario.

And Luigi a little bit but not as much.

:059:
 
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FimPhym

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Shout outs to thinkaman for calling out the nirvana fallacy (perfect is not the enemy of good) as it's the phrase I keep thinking over and over whenever I read post-patch posts.

Low tier buff? This was stupid it doesn't make them strong enough.
Sheik nerfs? She still has the tools to be terrifying this doesn't fix her.
No sheik nerf? Well, thinkaman's got me covered.

Quick question though. In thinkaman's tier theory vs tournament results graph, dedede is an outlier which I find interesting. He's predicted to be weak, which I'd agree with, but has actual top 8 results in practice? Does anyone know what's up with that? I've not been following things too closely lately.

Dedede rubbing shoulders with megaman and villager in tier list placements would amuse me.
 

Loota

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Helsinki, Finland
My message vanished to an unknown dimension while only leaving my accidental doublepost here. Gah, luckily I still had it saved.

But the most important point to take is: no character being nerfed, unless they're suddenly worse than a majority of the cast (the only one thus far has been -arguably- Lucario), have the right to complain.
At the same time, as I'm surprised that people think Lucario is bad (but don't really blame people for thinking so), I'm starting to feel really good about the game's balance if people indeed view Lucario as an relatively bad character. Something has been done right if I have all the chances in the world to win big with a "low tier". I personally believe he's high tier but so does almost everyone else think of their main too. In the end though, that's just the first likely sign of the game being admirably well balanced aside from a few outliers.

I have no need to complain, Lucario was just totally bonkers with universal vectoring and that added upB lag was kind of needed but didn't do any real harm to the character (you should feel bad if you ever get punished from it).
 
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Nocally

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well i suppose your right. personally though i would prefer if characters got buffed so all characters were in the elite instead of everyone being in the middle(guess its a matter of opinion). this doesnt mean that i dont want characters to get nerfed though. but yeah good post.
When everyone is good and elite, no one is.
 

Sodo

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 1, 2014
Messages
274
Nerfs should absolutely be a last resort, reserved for a character like Brawl MK or pre-patch Diddy. Although when they nerfed him again I thought that was a little much.

Otherwise, I would rather just see buffs on lower tier characters.
 

GeneralLedge

Smash Journeyman
Joined
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Messages
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There's just no reasoning to this, at all. Can you please explain it?
The Y axis is tournament results. The X axis is theorycraft. The reason characters like Sword are higher than Gunner is because Sword has actually won/placed in tournaments, and Gunner has not (or, at least, I don't know).

In theory, Gunner is better than Sword. In actual, hands-on, things that have occurred, Sword has done better than Gunner.

With that said, the only Gunners I've seen in tournaments of recent memory were those who SD'd repeatedly for trying too hard to utilize their zoning tools. So I'm not a great source for indication, here.
 

Snokros

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Joined
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Messages
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When everyone is good and elite, no one is.
that is absolutely right. i just prefer the level of power that the elite are at right now compared to the characters that are neither good or bad and would rather have all characters have that amount of power but thats just my opinion.
 

bc1910

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People who don't understand what Greninja's Ftilt buff means for him will continue to underrate him on tier lists. That actually makes me sort of happy.

I definitely thank flip jump's invincibility everyday for god existing.

But the most important point to take is: no character being nerfed, unless they're suddenly worse than a majority of the cast (the only one thus far has been -arguably- Lucario), have the right to complain.
I would say Greninja players had the right to complain, especially during his stint below the fabled #33 (he was considered low tier by many).

I stand by and will always stand by the assertion that he was grossly overnerfed, but I admit some of the complaining was over the top. It was just so hard to take the new Greninja build when unlike those who lament the nerfs to Sm4sh Falco and Marth, we can't just pop Brawl in the Wii U to get the old Greninja back. Nor did we get to play with such an awesome character for very long. People say we shouldn't complain because we only had top tier Greninja for two months but if anything that makes it worse.

However, with Greninja's buffs in the latest patch, and his rapidly improving results judging by Thinkaman's analysis, I don't think we have that right any more. A lot of crap has happened to this character but I think he's finally come through the other side. It's up to us now to compete with a character who by all accounts should be viable, however barely, as a solo main.

It finally feels good to be a Greninja player again.
 

Snokros

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Messages
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one thing also is that characters that are considered bad/good now might have their position completely changed in the future.
 

Seagull Joe

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Based on the new patch I'm going to post my current opinion tier list. I'm not going to segregate characters within the same tier so take that into account. I do think this game is becoming more balanced as Nintendo patches. This list doesn't take customs into account.

S: :rosalina:
A: :4sheik: :4sonic: :4luigi: :4diddy: :4pikachu: :4zss: :4fox: :4ryu: :4ness:
B: :4mario: :4feroy: :4pit: :4darkpit: :4miibrawl: :4villager: :4yoshi: :4wario:
C: :4bowser: :4dk: :4greninja: :4littlemac: :4marth: :4olimar: :4peach: :4rob: :4tlink: :4link: :4bowserjr: :4kirby: :4megaman: :4pacman: :4falcon: :4duckhunt: :4metaknight:
D: :4charizard: :4miigun: :4falco: :4lucina: :4wiifit: :4drmario: :4myfriends: :4lucario: :4gaw: :4shulk: :4lucas:
E: :4zelda: :4miisword: :4dedede: :4mewtwo: :4robinm: :4ganondorf: :4jigglypuff: :4palutena: :4samus:

:018:
 
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Seagull Joe

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People who don't understand what Greninja's Ftilt buff means for him will continue to underrate him on tier lists. That actually makes me sort of happy.



I would say Greninja players had the right to complain, especially during his stint below the fabled #33 (he was considered low tier by many).

I stand by and will always stand by the assertion that he was grossly overnerfed, but I admit some of the complaining was over the top. It was just so hard to take the new Greninja build when unlike those who lament the nerfs to Sm4sh Falco and Marth, we can't just pop Brawl in the Wii U to get the old Greninja back. Nor did we get to play with such an awesome character for very long. People say we shouldn't complain because we only had top tier Greninja for two months but if anything that makes it worse.

However, with Greninja's buffs in the latest patch, and his rapidly improving results judging by Thinkaman's analysis, I don't think we have that right any more. A lot of crap has happened to this character but I think he's finally come through the other side. It's up to us now to compete with a character who by all accounts should be viable, however barely, as a solo main.

It finally feels good to be a Greninja player again.
An Ftilt buff makes the character rapidly better? -dead-. At least :4sonic:'s dair buff makes him able to spike and cover options offstage far easier. An Ftilt buff doesn't seem to matter nearly as much considering his Dtilt is far better in CQC.
VSGC Results (no customs):

1) Shaky :4ness:
2) ESAM :4pikachu:
3) MVD :4diddy::4mario:
4) 8Bitman :4rob:
5) Dath :4robinf:
5) NickRiddle :4zss::4sheik:
7) Phuzix :4sheik:
7) True Blue :4sonic:

Crazy tournament. You goofed if you didn't stay up into the wee hours of the morning (actually I can't make that call for you :laugh:). n FYI in the post-tourney interview, Shaky said that he thinks :4ness: wins the :4pikachu: MU (which makes sense in customs off) and put him in spot #6-8. Of course, he also said FL > NY/NJ, so maybe take his opinions with some :salt:.

Unfortunately, there was not much :4robinf: on-stream. Dath beat some good players in an impressive losers run (including Master Raven and the :4ganondorf: that beat Seibrik).
Shaky is bae. I'd agree with him on anything :4ness: related.

:018:
 
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S_B

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I always thought she was still a little bit too strong on her own, and should rather have been a sort of Ice Climbers replacement, where she's only truly effective with her partner. But with her juggling ability being incredibly strong even without luma, and her aerial mobility and floatiness making her an easy character to play keep away with until she got luma back, I don think this design was followed very much in her design. So by making her partner a little bit easier to remove and increasing the amount of time she has to fare without the partner once it's been removed, and reducing her actual potential on her own, this remedies some of these issues.
110% agree with this.

Luma should have nearly ALL of the killing power between the two, and playing Rosaluma should be about keeping Luma in the fight as much as possible. A Luma-less Rosa should be an easy target, and I yet don't feel that this is at all the case.

Even without Luma, Rosalina is capable of killing, racking damage and being extremely evasive.
 

kenniky

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luma is kind of ridiculous
 
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