Character Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

I don't see that many results with Megaman is all. Several 'poor' characters on my list like Megaman or Zelda are my not seeing results with them and/or not having played them that much. He has some power, but not any easy setups into strong moves whereas Mii Brawler can Dthrow to upB and kill you at 40%

ewww so link, toon link, bowser, lucario and olimar have results. Where?

 

[Thinkaman]

Bowser>Ness

I play ~10 characters, and Ness would be my preferred choice against Bowser.

I would tentatively money match any Bowser as Ness.

 

[PUK]

does not beat , just Kirby is one of the few characters who doesn't get rekt by her neutral.

Yeah so basically win in kill power, damage raking, is able to recover if he's cautious, and easily in custom while having some option to gimp .
But he doesn't win the MU...

 

[Ffamran]

I don't see that many results with Megaman is all. Several 'poor' characters on my list like Megaman or Zelda are my not seeing results with them and/or not having played them that much. He has some power, but not any easy setups into strong moves whereas Mii Brawler can Dthrow to upB and kill you at 40%

Mega Man players off the top of my head: NinjaLink, Zucco, Scatt, Germ, and Kronos2560.

Edit: NinjaLink placed 13 at Apex 2015.

ewww so link, toon link, bowser, lucario and olimar have results. Where?

For Link, Sine Language places decently at Xanadu and that's pretty much it since I don't follow Link in Smash 4. For Toon Link, Zan and Mangoku? or something. For Bowser, Cali has like three of them, Kato, Big Sean, and Scourge while MD/VA has Ash23, Oco Le Troof, and Exist. Lucario has Junebug who places well and you should by now know about Dabuz's Olimar who was his "trump card" at Apex. For other Olimar/Alpha players, Logic, Greenbeast, and Soulimar place well. I don't recall any of these players except Dabuz placing in the top 3, but they have enough results to say they can compete and at least get top 15.

I would tentatively money match any Bowser as Ness.

We should get you to MM @VaBengal's brother, @Ash23.

 

[Aquamentii]

I haven't played a good Pika before so he's probably A but I don't have enough experience to say.
I put Custom Ness in S tier because PK thunder 2 beats about half the recoveries in the game since it knocks people away from the stage instead of into it and goes through enemies so it's slightly harder to gimp.
As for Falcon, I have him at the bottom of A tier so I could see him being B as well.
For Lucario, let me put it this way: Lucario at 0%? F tier. Lucario at 100%? S tier. His weight is slightly towards the heavy side so I put him slightly above average, in B
Fox's Recovery is too bad to put him in A (Then again, I did put Falcon in A, so maybe not)
Bowser hits too hard to be in E and his shell invincibility on Upsmash, coupled with other stupidly strong points put him in C. Maybe D is better. I suppose he doesn't get many results.
Meta Knight gets no results (as for what I've seen) and his nerfs hit him too hard to be any higher. His juggling and recovery are the only thing keeping him out of E
Megaman is another where I'm not sure where to put him. Maybe higher, but I wouldn't say above C
Ike's recovery is too bad to put him above D
Idk where to put Falco. I just stuck him in there because he doesn't have anything too special about him(don't hate on me Falco mains)
Kirby has some things going for him, but his light weight coupled with predicatble combos put him low. He probably deserves higher but Idk.
Palutena's actually pretty good, I missed her when I checked through this
Little Mac's recovery is way too bad to put him above even E.

 

[warionumbah2]

MK is trash, he gets no results and his tools compared to the rest of the cast is weak. He also can't kill at all due to lack of kill throws and kill setups. His mobility is horrible and so is his neutral, cuz everyone has a better neutral than MK so they win by default despite having a worse ground game but that don't matter.

Anyone with long range invalidates him. Only 2 people in the world main him, but they all suck tbh.

Like 0 results, Ito hasn't won anything, Fye hasn't done anything, Katakiri who's that? And Mks in japan don't exist. Worst character may as well use kirby he's better in every way possible because he does well against Sheik.

-Smashboards

 

[Thinkaman]

We should get you to MM @VaBengal's brother, @Ash23.

Heh, this was addressed more towards the person making the matchups claims, hence the "tentative". No, I'm not going to money match Zero if he plays Bowser, nor the best Bowsers in the world.

 

[PUK]

MK is trash, he gets no results and his tools compared to the rest of the cast is weak. He also can't kill at all due to lack of kill throws and kill setups. His mobility is horrible and so is his neutral, cuz everyone has a better neutral than MK so they win by default despite having a worse ground game but that don't matter.

Anyone with long range invalidates him. Only 2 people in the world main him, but they all suck tbh.

Like 0 results, Ito hasn't won anything, Fye hasn't done anything, Katakiri who's that? And Mks in japan don't exist. Worst character may as well use kirby he's better in every way possible because he does well against Sheik.

OMG i'm a low tier hero.
lucario has at least one finish and one french dude i know, link has izaw, and i know about Dabuz.
My question was rethorical, if you can find those results, then being unable to find other means that you don't even try

 

[Aquamentii]

MK is trash, he gets no results and his tools compared to the rest of the cast is weak. He also can't kill at all due to lack of kill throws and kill setups. His mobility is horrible and so is his neutral, cuz everyone has a better neutral than MK so they win by default despite having a worse ground game but that don't matter.

Anyone with long range invalidates him. Only 2 people in the world main him, but they all suck tbh.

Like 0 results, Ito hasn't won anything, Fye hasn't done anything, Katakiri who's that? And Mks in japan don't exist. Worst character may as well use kirby he's better in every way possible because he does well against Sheik.

-Smashboards

I could see MK winning by two reasons: One, matchup inexperience and being Uair to upB'd off the top. Two: Matchup inexperience and getting Uair to upB'd off the top.

 

[|RK|]

Yeah so basically win in kill power, damage raking, is able to recover if he's cautious, and easily in custom while having some option to gimp .
But he doesn't win the MU...

No one said Kirby won - just that it's about even. Good news for Kirby mains, but not people looking for a hard counter.

 

[warionumbah2]

I could see MK winning by two reasons: One, matchup inexperience and being Uair to upB'd off the top. Two: Matchup inexperience and getting Uair to upB'd off the top.

I'm so done.

 

[Nu~]

I could see MK winning by two reasons: One, matchup inexperience and being Uair to upB'd off the top. Two: Matchup inexperience and getting Uair to upB'd off the top.

Please tell me you are joking. Meta knight definitely isn't thriving off of matchup inexperience alone.
I could have sworn we were past the "meta knight got nurfed so baddd OMGG!" phase

 

[Thinkaman]

I haven't played a good Pika before so he's probably A but I don't have enough experience to say.

Pika is very strong in theory, anecdotes, and results.

I put Custom Ness in S tier because PK thunder 2 beats about half the recoveries in the game since it knocks people away from the stage instead of into it and goes through enemies so it's slightly harder to gimp.

So even if I don't have a main, I'm pretty sure that statistically I play Ness the most in brackets, by a slim margin. (I mean, it has to be someone.)

And there is not a single matchup in this game I would ever use up-b 2 in. Default PKT's speed is the only thing that keeps it applicable (and it sure as hell is applicable) in high-level play.

For Lucario, let me put it this way: Lucario at 0%? F tier. Lucario at 100%? S tier. His weight is slightly towards the heavy side so I put him slightly above average, in B

Pointing out a character's strengths and weaknesses and declaring they average out is a farce, pretending to take a position in the absence of one.

Sheik's KO power is F tier, and Sheik's neutral game is S tier. This does not average to B.

Bowser hits too hard to be in E and his shell invincibility on Upsmash, coupled with other stupidly strong points put him in C. Maybe D is better. I suppose he doesn't get many results.

If situational invincibility frames on unsafe moves defined tier lists, we'd all be worshiping our WFT and Palutena overlords.

Meta Knight gets no results (as for what I've seen) and his nerfs hit him too hard to be any higher. His juggling and recovery are the only thing keeping him out of E

MK is probably the single most underplayed character (take a wild guess why) and is finally starting to get recognized. Trust me, MK uair to up-b true combo kills are terrifying, and good dash grabs never go out of meta.

Little Mac's recovery is way too bad to put him above even E.

Once upon a time, there was a character called Melee Fox.

 

[PUK]

I could see MK winning by two reasons: One, matchup inexperience and being Uair to upB'd off the top. Two: Matchup inexperience and getting Uair to upB'd off the top.

Stop writing more BS and start to think now. MK has more kill move than the US army, more kill set up than sheik, and they're are easy to pull off, Bowser is slow, slow, slow, and can't kill soon enough to compensate this, LM will destroy you before you throw him offstage, ike recovery is better than half the cast, and predictible combo, you know, are combo. So it works no matter what.
I think you're overrating thing like recovery and ability to gimp safely, or results on a non logic basis.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

No. The tier list done by polls are project of /r/smashbros, the Smash Bros subreddit. There is no official Smashboards tier list right now.

Mucho apologias señor. I thought there was that thread about the "tier list" and that we were using it as a reference (even though it's basically moot because it's pre-patch and pre-customs meta). I'm much more concerned about underused/underrated characters - like swordfighter - over a constantly changing, more subjective than any other smash game and perhaps unnecessary because of the balance and patching tier list.

 

[Smog Frog]

why the **** is in "good" tier

 

[Thinkaman]

Random Little Mac thought of the day: Needles are surprisingly poor in the Little Mac matchup neutral, because Jolt Haymaker offers such a skewed relative reward as an answer.

 

[Ffamran]

Time to go through the usual...

I haven't played a good Pika before so he's probably A but I don't have enough experience to say.

Not uncommon since like ESAM is the most notable Pikachu player and then there's others like Mook and Kenny who probably nobody knows about.

I put Custom Ness in S tier because PK thunder 2 beats about half the recoveries in the game since it knocks people away from the stage instead of into it and goes through enemies so it's slightly harder to gimp.
Fox's Recovery is too bad to put him in A (Then again, I did put Falcon in A, so maybe not)
Ike's recovery is too bad to put him above D
Little Mac's recovery is way too bad to put him above even E.

Melee Falco, Captain Falcon, Fox, Ganondorf, Marth, and ton of characters in Melee had abysmal and at best mediocre recoveries. That doesn't stop Falco, Captain Falcon, and Marth from being the best characters in that game. Same with in Brawl where Falco, Fox, Wolf - ledge sweet-spot issues -, Olimar, and Snake had exploitable or just bad recoveries, but that didn't stop Fox and Wolf from being viable or Falco, Olimar, and Snake from being top/high tier. Their offensive capabilities far outweighed their recovery issues and on paper, Little Mac's abysmal "recovery" - might as well call it a pathetic last move before death - could mean nothing if he outright kills you and never has to leave the stage involuntarily.

If this game was only about recoveries, then Sheik, ZSS, Zelda, Wario, Villager - difficult to just pop the balloons -, Meta Knight, Wii Fit Trainer, Charizard, Greninja, and Pikachu would be the best characters. The worst characters would include Duck Hunt, Falco, Fox, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, DK, Ness, Lucas - hey, he's coming back in 6/14 -, ROB, Shulk, Little Mac, Jigglypuff, and even Diddy would count since his Rocketbarrel Boost is gimpable like the rest of them.

Meta Knight gets no results (as for what I've seen) and his nerfs hit him too hard to be any higher. His juggling and recovery are the only thing keeping him out of E

Ito and Katakiri place well with Meta Knight with Ito taking 1st and 2nd in several recent tournaments in CA. If results were the only things that mattered then Captain Falcon would be a loser since so many players use him only to get barely top 10 with only some exceptional players like Fatality placing top 3. This would also extend to... the entire cast except for Diddy, Sheik, Luigi, Fox, Sonic, and ZSS.

I could see MK winning by two reasons: One, matchup inexperience and being Uair to upB'd off the top. Two: Matchup inexperience and getting Uair to upB'd off the top.

Counterpoints: Mach Tornado is a damn good punish tool and ledge trap. If mashed well, you get ~30% of damage which is almost on the levels of Melee Peach Down Smash stupidity.

Shuttle Loop is so abusable, it's not even funny. It combos from D-throw, F-throw, Uair, can be used OOS, and it is something Captain Falcon would die for (not like he's already dead and squatting in the SSB series... RIP F-Zero).

Meta Knight is considered to have the (second) best Dash Grab alongside Captain Falcon and one of the better Dash Attacks in the game. His Smashes, barring Side Smash, are among the fastest in the game. In general, his moves are among the fastest in the game. Dude has, as you noted, one of the best recoveries. He can, unlike most characters with multiple jumps, harass people fairly well with hovering Dairs if he really needs to. The only things against him is how the game's designed: his stupid hitboxes are still messed up, his lightweight, and his need for precision. Oh, and let's not forget how people constantly, constantly compare him to Brawl Meta Knight, a broken character people begged to be banned and nerfed only to be "nerfed" in Smash 4 and now he gets complaints for not being Brawl Meta Knight. Hypocrites.

Things that go for him include his short height, overall speed, and his natural, if short, disjoint with Galaxia. Look, how about you watch Ito's Meta Knight. By this time, the players know about Ito and have fought him at least once: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUNHJqueQEM.

Idk where to put Falco. I just stuck him in there because he doesn't have anything too special about him(don't hate on me Falco mains)

If he's not at the very bottom or in his own special tier of Failville, then your tier list is invalid.

Heh, this was addressed more towards the person making the matchups claims, hence the "tentative". No, I'm not going to money match Zero if he plays Bowser, nor the best Bowsers in the world.

Aw, but you could do a "charity money match"; loser's money goes to whatever official charity like the Red Cross, MSF, etc.

why the **** is in "good" tier

He's clearly the protagonist of Zelda Wii U.

 

[Ulevo]

MK is trash, he gets no results and his tools compared to the rest of the cast is weak. He also can't kill at all due to lack of kill throws and kill setups. His mobility is horrible and so is his neutral, cuz everyone has a better neutral than MK so they win by default despite having a worse ground game but that don't matter.

Anyone with long range invalidates him. Only 2 people in the world main him, but they all suck tbh.

Like 0 results, Ito hasn't won anything, Fye hasn't done anything, Katakiri who's that? And Mks in japan don't exist. Worst character may as well use kirby he's better in every way possible because he does well against Sheik.

-Smashboards

You forgot to mention how Tyrant is a good Meta Knight.

 

[warionumbah2]

You forgot to mention how Tyrant is a good Meta Knight.

I forgot that he solo mains batman and brings in results. Thanks for correcting me buddy.

 

[Aquamentii]

Kk didn't mean to talk ***** on any specific character, i admit some of my placings/reasonings may be off. And when I say that Mac's recovery is bad, yes, plenty of other good character have below average recoveries and recoveries should only be one factor in where to put a character on a tier list, but Mac's recovery is downright awful, especially in a game where most recoveries are very strong and he has so few options offstage when you factor in his weak aerials that it brings him down too far. While he's great on the ground, he's not perfect, and that is what takes him out of top tier and into low tier. Maybe he doesn't deserve the title of 'worst in the game', but he's down their in my opinion. Note: my opinion, im sure you all have very different ideas of tier lists and I'd love to see some of yours.

You forgot to mention how Tyrant is a good Meta Knight.

I haven't seen any vids of tyrant before so my opinion on Mk is a lot lower than it probably should be.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Random Little Mac thought of the day: Needles are surprisingly poor in the Little Mac matchup neutral, because Jolt Haymaker offers such a skewed relative reward as an answer.

Honest question: do needles have enough startup to feasibly react to? Especially single needles or releasing a stored charge of needles.

 

[Ulevo]

I haven't seen any vids of tyrant before so my opinion on Mk is a lot lower than it probably should be.

The fact that I was being completely sarcastic about Tyrant being a good Meta Knight aside, yes, your opinion on Meta Knight holds little value.

 

[Djent]

Umebura16 results:

1) Rain (undefeated titan)
2) Choco (lost to Rain twice)
3) Nietono (lost to Choco twice)
4) Salena (lost to Pichi and Nietono)
5) Yui (lost to Rain and Salena)
5) Pichi (lost to Rain and Nietono)
7) Yosshi~i (lost to Yui and Salena)
7) Shu (lost to Kamemushi and Pichi)

Everyone's already been discussing Salena's impressive run. I am also impressed to see Pichi make top 8 for (at least) the 2nd time; he is definitely a rising star.

EDIT: Apparently Shi-Gaming mislabeled some losers bracket matches. I mistook Kirihara's 9th place elimination match for 7th. My apologies; I will now commit sudoku.

 

[Ikes]

Heh, this was addressed more towards the person making the matchups claims, hence the "tentative". No, I'm not going to money match Zero if he plays Bowser, nor the best Bowsers in the world.

I've heard a lot of people say that Bowser has the tools to beat Ness in an easily 50:50 or even 60:40 matchup

 

[Ulevo]

Captain Falcon's Zero to Death Combo, works on (almost) EVERY CHARACTER!

 

[Shaya]

Okay.
We've had many over the months since release, but they've mostly all calmed down. Now there's only a few people left who still proactively do the same passive aggressive sarcastic crap (a joke is fine, humour is great if it isn't derailing) every time their character is mentioned, in some cases rarely saying anything constructive otherwise, EVER. Stop.
You either have a post or reference ready to explain/help someone who has a "wrong" opinion, or you don't reply at all.

Thanks.

If it isn't obvious to some, "poor" posts in this thread only become problems when people reply to them. Every time that these posts trigger a page+ of sub-conversation replies pushing out earnest and solid posts from good contributors I think to myself "so should I be applying infractions to the same people who do so every time, or let it slide as I'm not bothered to deal with their self-righteousness afterwards?" However, if the warning's out there the latter is significantly less of a concern.

I know we're all prone to expressing our passion for the game, no matter what form it takes on the internet.
But when it happens time and time again and nothing ever positive comes out of it (there's no further conversation to be had), it isn't cool.
No one learns, perspectives aren't understood (other than "don't ever mention this character if you know what's good for you") and the overall quality of the thread trends downwards.

Please understand.

~there is absolutely no reason to reply to this post at all (in this thread)~

 

[NachoOfCheese]

MK is trash, he gets no results and his tools compared to the rest of the cast is weak. He also can't kill at all due to lack of kill throws and kill setups. His mobility is horrible and so is his neutral, cuz everyone has a better neutral than MK so they win by default despite having a worse ground game but that don't matter.

Anyone with long range invalidates him. Only 2 people in the world main him, but they all suck tbh.

Like 0 results, Ito hasn't won anything, Fye hasn't done anything, Katakiri who's that? And Mks in japan don't exist. Worst character may as well use kirby he's better in every way possible because he does well against Sheik.

-Smashboards

I thought we've established that MK is aight?

 

[TriTails]

Umebura16 results:

1) Rain (undefeated titan)
2) Choco (lost to Rain twice)
3) Nietono (lost to Choco twice)
4) Salena (lost to Pichi and Nietono)
5) Yui (lost to Rain and Salena)
5) Pichi (lost to Rain and Nietono)
7) Kirihara (lost to Yui and Salena)
7) Shu (lost to seed91 and Pichi)

Everyone's already been discussing Salena's impressive run. I am also impressed to see Pichi and Kirihara get into top 8 for (at least) the 2nd time each; they are two rising stars.

Huh. Diddy is nowhere to be seen.

Quick question: Nietono main or second Luigi?

 

[bc1910]

I don't think Sheik's KO power is F-tier, mostly because of her edgeguarding, but also I think Ftilt > Uair and tipper Dtilt > Uair are really useful KO combos. Ftilt in particular is very easy to hit with. Also Fthrow > Fair true combos until obscene percents and can kill near the ledge. Though I agree she's not GOOD at killing, probably below average because even her kill confirm moves don't always get the job done. DI can help you survive Ftilt/Dtilt > Uair and Fthrow > Fair until they stop comboing but it depends on stuff like staling and rage.

I think she's considerably better at it than characters like Bowser Jr and Zelda who have almost no useful KO combos whatsoever and very tough to land kill moves. To be fair though very few characters are at Bowser Jr's level of struggling to get KOs and Sheik, whilst being significantly better at killing than those characters, is still worse at it than most of the rest of the cast.

 

[Lavani]

Honest question: do needles have enough startup to feasibly react to? Especially single needles or releasing a stored charge of needles.

Needles thrown asap are frame 11, I'm not sure how far they travel each frame but I feel it'd be more of a prediction thing than reaction.

I thought we've established that MK is aight?

Sarcasm.

Huh. Diddy is nowhere to be seen.

Quick question: Nietono main or second Luigi?

He plays a lengthy list of characters, I'm sure or are closer to being mains to him than Luigi is.
EDIT: Rather, he mained Sheik during Apex and from what I've seen since (haven't been following Japan as closely as of late) he seemed to be expressing more interest in Fox after 1.0.6, but he plays a ton of characters.

Also intrigued by the lack of Diddy in the top 8, though.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Tweek is doing some real work with Bowser Jr vs ADHD's Diddy. It's actually making me rethink on him a bit, not sure if he's crazy good or anything but maybe needs to go up in my personal list.

 

[Yonder]

TIL Ness has great customs, Villager is mid-tier, Falco is mid-tier and bottom tier, Meta Knight and Mega Man are poor, and Little Mac is the worst character in the game.

I feel like this list is pretty accurate for November of 2014, though.

Nah Luigi would still be worst in game along with Ike and Mega Man I believe and Mac near the top...or bottom. He was very polarizing.

 

[Shaya]

Also now we're seeing Nairo consistently combo into flip jump (as the shayprophecy preordained) pretty consistently, can I start having a growing base of people agreeing that flip jump is probably the best move in the game?

Get hit, flip jump, you DI to avoid the true-combo (or get true combo'd), ZSS positional/frame advantage is still there, you get hit by something else or landing trapped.
Killing people from nairs at 30% upwards is pretty ridiculous.

But remember, this is a secret and you can't tell anyone, especially not Nintendo.

#SecretFlipJumpSociety

 

[Ulevo]

Tweek is doing some real work with Bowser Jr vs ADHD's Diddy. It's actually making me rethink on him a bit, not sure if he's crazy good or anything but maybe needs to go up in my personal list.

It's hard to tell because Tweek gets away with things on shield he really should not. The man gets results but I feel like if people played the match up properly then it would become much more difficult for him to consistently retain results.

 

[Locke 06]

Please understand.

When I read these 2 words in italics from you, I see the words "Frame 16 grab" before it even when they're not there. #relevanttodiscussion

Also now we're seeing Nairo consistently combo into flip jump (as the shayprophecy preordained) pretty consistently, can I start having a growing base of people agreeing that flip jump is probably the best move in the game?

Get hit, flip jump, you DI to avoid the true-combo (or get true combo'd), ZSS positional/frame advantage is still there, you get hit by something else or landing trapped.
Killing people from nairs at 30% upwards is pretty ridiculous.

But remember, this is a secret and you can't tell anyone, especially not Nintendo.

#SecretFlipJumpSociety

I've been seeing this a lot recently from Seattle's resident zss (a small, but growing smash 4 scene). Nair>flip jump spike is very much a thing. Same with Diddy dthrow>DAir. Combo'ing into spikes is dirty, but as long as you know the % and positional needs (spiking over the edge) you won't get killed because you won't put yourself in that position. Still hurts, but I don't consider them bonkers broken setups (not as much as prepatch Diddy stuff)

Also, Flip Jump has the footstool animation. Which, in my mind, gives it a weakness that most do not exploit. But what else, other than Nair and bthrow somewhat combo into flip jump?

Edit: Forgot the obvious Dsmash>Flip Jump. (Paralyzer too, I guess)

 

[Shaya]

When I read these 2 words in italics from you, I see the words "Frame 16 grab" before it even when they're not there. #relevanttodiscussion


I've been seeing this a lot recently from Seattle's resident zss (a small, but growing smash 4 scene). Nair>flip jump spike is very much a thing. Same with Diddy dthrow>DAir. Combo'ing into spikes is dirty, but as long as you know the % and positional needs (spiking over the edge) you won't get killed because you won't put yourself in that position. Still hurts, but I don't consider them bonkers broken setups (not as much as prepatch Diddy stuff)

Also, Flip Jump has the footstool animation. Which, in my mind, gives it a weakness that most do not exploit. But what else, other than Nair and bthrow somewhat combo into flip jump?

I was trying to think of a witty way to say "16 something" when I wrote that. I felt that "frame grab" wouldn't have been awesome enough.

Nair and back throw are the obvious ones that you can reliably see true comboing in training mode, but I think there are A LOT of actions that lead to it in a way that's practically unavoidable, the duration of the time you can input the kick (and the length of time it's out) naturally frame traps air dodges.
Back Air also true combos into it.
You'll see semi-reliable chaining into it from up air or down throw. It's still feasible to get hits with fair, forward throw, moves which hit people downwards towards ledges where they're locked from grabbing it (side-b, first hit fair, ftilt).

Also yes, the footstool jump is really the only "weakness" the move has, although at a lot of levels it's cheesy punish for people's smash charging habits as it seems all charge animations get rooted, although what actually defines when it'll root someone or otherwise is somewhat unknown to me/inconsistent.
But yes, understanding flip jump is understanding the footstool thing is it's greatest flaw. Flip Jump can be used in neutral a bit though, but that 'issue' isn't too applicable in follow up situations.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It's hard to tell because Tweek gets away with things on shield he really should not. The man gets results but I feel like if people played the match up properly then it would become much more difficult for him to consistently retain results.

The matchup is a hard one to get good at because of how rare Bowser Jr mains are.

 

[TriTails]

Luigi can combo D-throw to D-air spike, which can be used as either killing setups at the edge or comboing. But I guess it has become pretty obvious now.

D-throw -> D-air spike bounce -> N-air/B-air/FJP kills are beautiful.

 

[Nobie]

Re: Mega Man's lack of kill setups

Who needs kill setups when you have SHORYUUUUKEEEEEN.

But on a slightly more serious note, Mega Upper is a scary move that makes opponents want to stay far away, and why, that happens to be Mega Man's ideal range! Funny how that works.

Also Mega Man benefits immensely from the fact that a lot of his moves eventually become kill moves with little need for setup in general. Up Smash kills, back throw kills, even Slide can kill lighter characters when Rage is in effect.