Character Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

Zelda can Hoo-Hah vs bad or no DI... trouble is her Dthrow animation is so slow there's no excuse not to DI away.

I also think she's clearly last. Samus has a few positive traits at least, and her projectiles keep getting better. Zelda has what? Elevator? Bleh. Zelda's the closest thing I think this game has to a "bad" character by quite a margin.

imo zelda is better than in overall viability

 

[bc1910]

Care to elaborate?

 

[andimidna]

Hmm I've been thinking about peach a lot recently. And thinking she could be one of the contenders for the top, along with the obvious ones.
I saw ppl yesterday talking about what skill level was used for tier lists and personally when I've ever thought about that kind of thing I've only consider highest level play, like Zero, or a theoretical better level, like Zero in a year lel. Cause it's ranking the characters not the results. Imo results prove theory, they don't establish a character. Peach results look low but who are the peach players? She seems the least affected by lack of results given it's pretty well accepted she required the most skill to play to her full potential, no? I think the higher level you go, the more peach will be able to be successful and ganon has the reverse of this.
I was hoping to get some petch talk on her strengths and weaknesses bc I really like what I've seen so far I just haven't seen much. And I'm bad at the character ;-; so many buttons. Same situation as custom paletuna lol
Are there any notable MUs with peach, any recent tech?
I tried the peach boards but couldn't rly find what I was looking for eh idk some boards are a bit empty

Oh and something I've wondered since like day 1: is the Zelda elevator actually a true combo at some percent range? If it's always DIable then I see where ppl are coming from with this "worst character" talk, with her traits she kinda needs that 60 kill lol

imo zelda is better than

Ik recovery is important, but all things considered do these 2 really belong near that group? Better spacing (or on stage aerials I guess), approaching, and camping means a lot when like 90% of the match happens on the stage
Does this come down to a certain MU for you? Maybe sheik?

 

[PUK]

Care to elaborate?

So i speaking custom off.
: bad projectile, unsafe and slow move, lack of kill power bar Usmash, and Usmash is unsafe
: very commiting run and poor fast attack. Bad recovery and big target
: everything he have is slow and unsafe, is offense is crap, he's defense is frail. Combo food, and lack of way to maintain his advantage
: same as above, but his offstage game can save him i guess
: pretty good imo, but can't really catch someone who avoid his spacing
: lol, you can live forever if you know how to recover against him, and one of the worst recovery of the game. Even character who usually struggle against projectiles don't lose against him
: the only one i'm not sure about, but lack of kill set up when you are the lightest character is meh
: really good until the opponent counterpick. i like him but competitively he's close to be the worst character
: custom off she can't really do a lot
: big issue with the combo reflector shield as it force her to approach, in what she's worst that zelda

 

[Shaya]

Well, this may have been the case still in the previous patch, but Marth one shots Luma with several of his fresh tippers now.
Shieldbreaker tipper definitely one shots it, considering how much range that thing has and the fact Luma cannot shield (and the only way to protect luma is for rosalina to be sitting in shield on top of her), yeah.

Definitely a nerf I underrated. the scale of damage/knockback for these things is so... iffie to gauge.
Now we (the average player) needs to conquer Rosalina's passive stance for those dozen seconds and the rest will be cake.

~
On the point of bottom tier right now. I think almost every character in that realm can boast alright match ups somewhere. If there is an exception it hasn't really been found yet.

Smash Fundamental play with Zelda is underrated in this game. Trying to gimmick people with the elevator or liberal use of side/down b isn't what's going to make her win matches (well the elevator can, but I think people need to develop it further so it's not the mix up gimmick in CQC but actually "real" from something).
Having transcended priority sparkles and one of the meanest down tilts in the game; that's the truth (imo).

She needs to play this game like a low tier in Brawl, but her rewards are no where near as bad as they were in Brawl. Her players need to be working their ass off to move in the right way and not over exert themselves before getting a power shield and then voila, kill them at 70%.

Customs off, Palutena is probably the worst in the game (felt she was before and she received nothing). Robin, Samus, Zelda, Jiggs, Palutena [edit note: Mac] possibly face the toughest match ups in the game though (that aren't Fox jabbing you to death).

 

[deepseadiva]

Hmm I've been thinking about peach a lot recently. And thinking she could be one of the contenders for the top, along with the obvious ones.
I saw ppl yesterday talking about what skill level was used for tier lists and personally when I've ever thought about that kind of thing I've only consider highest level play, like Zero, or a theoretical better level, like Zero in a year lel. Cause it's ranking the characters not the results. Imo results prove theory, they don't establish a character. Peach results look low but who are the peach players? She seems the least affected by lack of results given it's pretty well accepted she required the most skill to play to her full potential, no? I think the higher level you go, the more peach will be able to be successful and ganon has the reverse of this.
I was hoping to get some petch talk on her strengths and weaknesses bc I really like what I've seen so far I just haven't seen much. And I'm bad at the character ;-; so many buttons. Same situation as custom paletuna lol
Are there any notable MUs with peach, any recent tech?
I tried the peach boards but couldn't rly find what I was looking for eh idk some boards are a bit empty

I've been tapping into some of the new things with her and I'll agree in theory stacks up. Notable tools:

• Fsmash (frame 15) kills at 100%
• Kill aerial at 120%: fair (frame 16)
• A KILL THROW: bthrow at 150%
• Frame 2 jab
• Frame 6 dsmash that covers behind her.
• Dthrow combos. Dthrow+uair is guaranteed and then followups . Exceptional rewards for a grab.
• And her ability to safely pressure with float attacks.

This character oozes KO power, guaranteed combos from dair and grab, and float will forever make her freaky and strange to play against. It also makes her strange and freaky to play yourself, so I understand the lack of representation.

Matchup wise, I do wonder if she goes evenish against: /////. I don't believe she's countered by anyone on that list.

She might get camped out by //, but overall her spread seems surprisingly solid.

 

[Antonykun]

But but nairo plays her.....

Nairo is so good he can beat 95% of the smash community with anyone including "custom off" Swordfighter

 

[Ffamran]

So i speaking custom off.
: bad projectile, unsafe and slow move, lack of kill power bar Usmash, and Usmash is unsafe

Watching Tweek and Andy_Sauro who are basically opposites of each other as Tweek is aggressive while Andy is defensive, they show both sides to Jr. Tweek makes use of Jr.'s Uair, Abandon Ship's hammer, and Clown Kart Dash to move and feint approaches. Andy sets up traps with Mechakoopas and uses Clown Cannon a lot to force approaches while his usage of Clown Kart Dash is more for escaping, recovering, and feints. One of them uses Nair to Jab or something - I think it was Andy - while the other, Tweek?, uses Dair to Jab and stuff.

Jr.'s Side Smash is disjointed and powerful. From a glance, Up Smash, Side Smash, Uair, and Abandon Ship's hammer would be Jr.'s main kill moves. Abandon Ship is also a typical edgeguard where Jr. forces you to recover in a way where to bypass the explosion and Jr. which isn't easy, especially for characters like Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, or even Sonic and Fox who could blast past in between the explosion and Jr. with Spin Dash and Fox Illusion.

Edgeguarding Jr. is difficult as Clown Kart Dash is similar to Wario's Bike, except Jr.'s always in the Clown Car and you have to be on point as Jr. has a strong disjoint through his hammer after Abandon Ship and he can always Abandon Ship and leave you to deal with the explosion off stage. Or you catch him and he tumbles down without his Clown Car.

The issue with Jr. is that people say he relies on a lot of gimmicks, namely, how his Mechakoopa, Clown Kart Dash, Abandon Ship, Clown Cannon, basically his Specials flow together. It's not like Duck Hunt where it's wall out with projectiles or Solid Snake where it's massive stage control and powerful CQC. Jr. can control the stage, but you can pick up Mechakoopa and Clown Cannon's slow as a projectile, he can sort of rush in, but needs Clown Kart Dash, and his edgeguard boils down to how he uses Abandon Ship as Dair might be risky, Fair and Bair are too strong for gimps, Uair is more for ceiling kills, I don't know of Nair can gimp, and there's Mechakoopa which acts as a thrown explosive and it might be better to have it on stage to catch landings rather than gimp and edgeguard.

And one thing for certain is this boy will live for a long time since he's the 4th heaviest character because of the Clown Car.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, this may have been the case still in the previous patch, but Marth one shots Luma with several of his fresh tippers now.
Shieldbreaker tipper definitely one shots it, considering how much range that thing has and the fact Luma cannot shield (and the only way to protect luma is for rosalina to be sitting in shield on top of her), yeah.

Definitely a nerf I underrated. the scale of damage/knockback for these things is so... iffie to gauge.
Now we (the average player) needs to conquer Rosalina's passive stance for those dozen seconds and the rest will be cake.

~
On the point of bottom tier right now. I think almost every character in that realm can boast alright match ups somewhere. If there is an exception it hasn't really been found yet.

Smash Fundamental play with Zelda is underrated in this game. Trying to gimmick people with the elevator or liberal use of side/down b isn't what's going to make her win matches (well the elevator can, but I think people need to develop it further so it's not the mix up gimmick in CQC but actually "real" from something).
Having transcended priority sparkles and one of the meanest down tilts in the game; that's the truth (imo).

She needs to play this game like a low tier in Brawl, but her rewards are no where near as bad as they were in Brawl. Her players need to be working their *** off to move in the right way and not over exert themselves before getting a power shield and then voila, kill them at 70%.

Customs off, Palutena is probably the worst in the game (felt she was before and she received nothing). Robin, Samus, Zelda, Jiggs, Palutena possibly face the toughest match ups in the game though (that aren't Fox jabbing you to death).

I think Zelda changed the least of btawl characters to smash 4 . The problem is everything was nerfed. So in brawl a good read was death now it's not. Her moveset isn't justified this time around. Since she's lacking the KO power on most of her moves. Her grab is still slow and she's slow. Dtilt is only going to get you so far. I think a lot of the Zelda hype came from people not realizing most of that stuff she was already capable of in brawl. The most significant change is ger upB and losing the ability to turn into sheik.

But yeah palutena sucks.

So are you Marth players feeling better about Marth?

 

[bc1910]

Ah, Peach. I've tried to pick her up many times. She's technical, deep and strong overall, but I think her KO power and grab game falter a bit as you start to fight better players. Her Fsmash is a bit on the slow side, it's not bad exactly but it's just hard to hit a good player with. Dthrow combos can be easily DI'd out of at low-ish percents, I find my opponents escaping at around 40% and I can escape her throw combos pretty easily myself. Back throw killing requires you to be very close to the ledge and good DI can help you live for quite a long time.

But on the other hand, her other strengths become more valuable as you get better with her. She's such a rewarding character. All of her float tech, from simple floating aerials to float dashing and quick float aerials, is exceptional. Her ability to basically wavedash cannot be understated especially with that amazing Dtilt of hers.

Smash Fundamental play with Zelda is underrated in this game. Trying to gimmick people with the elevator or liberal use of side/down b isn't what's going to make her win matches (well the elevator can, but I think people need to develop it further so it's not the mix up gimmick in CQC but actually "real" from something).
Having transcended priority sparkles and one of the meanest down tilts in the game; that's the truth (imo).

...

Customs off, Palutena is probably the worst in the game (felt she was before and she received nothing). Robin, Samus, Zelda, Jiggs, Palutena possibly face the toughest match ups in the game though (that aren't Fox jabbing you to death).

Yeah I'm not sure how to make the elevator "real" aside from its obvious application as an OoS punish. The fact that it's easy to DI doesn't help it at all when it comes to trying to use it in frame traps. Like, if you try to trap an airdodge landing, chances are your opponent was drifting away anyway and will still have the stick held away as they land. Things as simple as that can ruin the elevator. I totally agree it needs to be developed as more than this weird yet dangerous gimmick it's used as now, but certain mechanical things about it don't sit right with me...

Robin's MUs I think could actually improve in many cases, his rapid jab sucking less hasn't been talked about much but I think it's pretty significant. It deals a ton of damage in a true combo, launches the opponent, can kill, and (obviously) works off of jab which is frame 4. Overall jab has become a fast, rewarding up close option. I'm not suggesting Robin's suddenly gonna become a Mario brother up close because jab is like... his only option lol, but I think it could help make certain MUs less polarizing. So I think his toughest MUs would be the least tough out of the ones you listed, if that makes sense.

 

[Nobie]

One aspect of Zelda that always, always throws me off is the fact that the sound effect for her forward smash finishes before the attack. Often if you hear an attack being thrown out without being hit, the sound effect is a good indicator of when the move will finish. With Zelda though, it's like I'll hear the f-smash sparkles, un-shield and THEN get hit by the strongest part of the attack.

It's obviously my own inexperience but I get caught by that too many times for comfort.

 

[deepseadiva]

And one thing for certain is this boy will live for a long time since he's the 4th heaviest character because of the Clown Car.

HE'S SOOO TUBBY NO JOKE

I'd agree with @ PUK about lack of kill power though. Nothing he has is easy to land. And because he's slow (I'm sorry, Clown Kart is not at all fast), he can be outcamped pretty easy.

"Bad projectile" is just straight up false though. MechaKoopa+Canon in tandem is an impressive setup. And Mechs are AMAZINGGG. You basically always want one walking around.

Ah, Peach. I've tried to pick her up many times. She's technical, deep and strong overall, but I think her KO power and grab game falter a bit as you start to fight better players. Her Fsmash is a bit on the slow side, it's not bad exactly but it's just hard to hit a good player with. Dthrow combos can be easily DI'd out of at low-ish percents, I find my opponents escaping at around 40% and I can escape her throw combos pretty easily myself. Back throw killing requires you to be very close to the ledge and good DI can help you live for quite a long time.

But on the other hand, her other strengths become more valuable as you get better with her. She's such a rewarding character. All of her float tech, from simple floating aerials to float dashing and quick float aerials, is exceptional. Her ability to basically wavedash cannot be understated especially with that amazing Dtilt of hers.

I wouldn't call her technical or deep. Float is a one-of in this game, so if you pick her up there's that one unique mechanic to master, but she lost basically all her amazing autocancels that made her so precision based. She also lost all her sweet turnip techs, so I now I think of her as a simple skipping behemoth.

How her KO falters applies to anyone in this game not called Ness or Fox. Fsmash is slow, even more so fair, but what makes her so potent is the combination of safe shield pressure she can apply with the always looming notion that if you make a mistake that gives Peach 15-16 frames, YOU WILL DIE.

So many characters have to take risks for a KO. Peach can just keep peppering your stock with dair and turnips till a mistake is forced. That's a very good character trait.

Robin's MUs I think could actually improve in many cases, his rapid jab sucking less hasn't been talked about much but I think it's pretty significant. It deals a ton of damage in a true combo, launches the opponent, can kill, and (obviously) works off of jab which is frame 4.

I'm glad this was mentioned. One of the more important changes from the patch IMO. Seeing it first hand makes a very different experience to fight.

 

[bc1910]

I wouldn't call her technical or deep. Float is a one-of in this game, so if you pick her up there's that one unique mechanic to master, but she lost basically all her amazing autocancels that made her so precision based. She also lost all her sweet turnip techs, so I now I think of her as a simple skipping behemoth.

How her KO falters applies to anyone in this game not called Ness or Fox. Fsmash is slow, even more so fair, but what makes her so potent is the combination of safe shield pressure she can apply with the always looming notion that if you make a mistake that gives Peach 15-16 frames, YOU WILL DIE.

So many characters have to take risks for a KO. Peach can just keep peppering your stock with dair and turnips till a mistake is forced. That's a very good character trait.

Well I meant relatively technical/deep. It's not like she's as technical as she used to be but one unique mechanic is still one more than most characters and there's plenty of things you can learn to do with it.

Eh, I suppose most characters' KO options falter as players get better. But I'd extend the list of characters who keep solid KO options at high level past Ness and Fox to... most of the top and high tier, actually. Aside from a few exceptions like Yoshi and Mario, they all have solid guaranteed kill confirms.

If you make a mistake that gives almost any character 15-16 frames you will probably die haha. But I see what you're saying, Peach can use her pressure to bait those mistakes out more easily than most. That is indeed a strong character trait.

 

[deepseadiva]

Ugh, how many pages back is that post @Thinkaman made with the BS KO moves ranked. I want to rank the characters in KO ability.

#1
...
#50

 

[Trifroze]

I'm glad this was mentioned. One of the more important changes from the patch IMO. Seeing it first hand makes a very different experience to fight.

One of Robin's biggest problems has always been getting people off of him/her, but now it's actually quite a lot easier. At low percents the rapid jab does 15-20% damage depending on the target and at >120% it kills although it's escapeable for some of the floatier characters. I started enjoying Robin a lot more after the buff, it's like she suddenly got a solid OoS option that people no longer fall out of all the time (since both versions used to do that before, now only the fire one).

Maybe next patch they'll decrease arcfire recovery time or give you more usage for it, hell anything. It's extremely punishable especially if you don't shorthop it with your 8 frame jump squat.

EDIT: Oh and for ****s and giggles I tried doing Robin's nair with the new A+B input mechanic. No levin sword version for nair sadly.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

: very commiting run and poor fast attack. Bad recovery and big target

Not quite, Charizard has no trouble getting back to the stage. He has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game which few people can challenge due to the super armor it has. His Up B can be inturrupted, but it's tricky, and a good charizard can stall under the stage with his extra jumps to throw off your timing.

Rarely will charizard have an issue getting back to the stage. What he does struggle with is getting off of the ledge, but he has a few options there as well.

Charizards run is one of the better runs in the game. It's got good speed, and he's one of the few characters that can instantly cancel his run into whatever he likes.

He does lack many fast options, but that's more of a general heavy trait than anything. His moves are slow, but that's the price you pay when nearly every one of your moves can either kill, or set up for a kill.

For quick options, he does have his jab and frame 9 dtilt.
The former sets up into his Fair combos, and the latter instantly puts charizard in an edgeguard situation.



By the way, Charizard's hurtbox is deceptively small. His wings and tail do not have hurtboxes.

 

[Ffamran]

Ugh, how many pages back is that post @Thinkaman made with the BS KO moves ranked. I want to rank the characters in KO ability.

#1
...
#50

That was Cassio, but I don't remember if Thinkaman made one.

Kind of random, but I decided to make a list of BS kill moves in the game as judged by pika and his inclination to die early to BS. Differentiating this from something like sheik's up-b which moreso requires a set-up and read rather then randomly tossing it out (though those listed could also have a set-up). Customs off because I dont know customs well enough. Also ordered from most frustrating to less frustrating.

Edit: What makes it BS is that its not something you can always predict or prepare for if tossed out randomly. In a perfect world you would never get hit by these moves in such situations but alas...

: FSMASH BS
: EVERYTHING
: EVERYTHING
: Waft BS
: Up B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: Side B BS
: (grab) Bthrow BS
: Up B BS
: Counter BS
: Everything Kindofnotreally
: Everything kindofnotreally
: Bthrow BS; Usmash kindanotreally


: Probably Something
: Probably something
: Maybe something?
: Upair BS

They Cool:

 

[Blobface]

I want to rank the characters in KO ability.

#1
...
#50

I would actually be interested in this kind of thing. It'd be neat to see where the cast stands on KO power.

Spoiler

I'm assuming Is #0

With that said, Duck Hunt would benefit substantially if his smashes just plain linked better.

 

[DanGR]

I haven't noticed the 5hp Luma change very much at all. A vast majority of the time when I'm playing her and Luma dies, it's because she's knocked off stage. Could just be the matchups I play more often in practice.

 

[Browny]

So Marth's have been doing better in tournament as of late (or maybe I'm just predisposed to finding Marths in streams) and all things considered (frame data buffs too), dancing blade being back is the start of something special. I currently think Marth (and even Lucina) are feasibly middle tier now if not better (and bottom-tierish was my feeling before)

The characters needed their bread and butter to get better. Having no options out of dash worth anything bar pivot (rar) back air significantly curtailed their pressure as well as their rewards from trapping.
Dancing Blade is reliably doing 10-15%, and it's working for both characters out of aerials and tilts, and its range when coupled with transcended priority virtually negates most character's abilities to land, at all; Marth had to deal with the risk of a well timed air dodge into shield to wreck him in Brawl, but not anymore :D. Dancing Blade snowballs positional dominance in such a way that he's likely to just keep... punishing your landing with dancing blade or grab over and over again. Sakurai's intentions to make Dancing Blade workable in the air to compensate for the fair/etc nerfs are really starting to show; it's low hitting to the ground and covers his landings well (much better than a landing fair/nair/etc would) and basically being a 50/50 on shield's (can't react to the second strike coming out/rolling in from first hit isn't a guaranteed punish anymore). Cross over potential + b reversing/etc galore.

I also think I'm starting to see the way Marth/Lucina flows in terms of aerial strings and combos. Back air will pick them up from low (good from forward throw even to mid percent) and move straight into forward air (usually two) landing which you then full hop nair from the ground (which will auto cancel with a late-ish fast fall) will win against most things + beats air dodges. And if it's a similar timing for both of you coming into the ground, dancing blade wins, every time.

Lucina's current numbers seem to sit very well with her. Any spacing of her down tilt (Marth tends to need untippered) is comboing into dancing blade, three of these strings and you're suddenly at a percent her forward smash kills near a ledge, but bair -> fair -> db is reliable and you only need two and a bit of those. I think a lot of people agree, her forward smash is ridiculous as a punish and can be ending stocks as low as the 80% range. She may not have the depth of Marth, but she is a scary mother ****er with rage and her damage racking (as they're trap based) isn't hurt like it is most other characters when rage comes along; she (and Marth too) are the characters who in tournament their players aren't going to need to be as stressed about taking opposing hits like the other guy is (Ganon-factor).

Dancing Blade is once again one of the best moves in the game. Fire Emblem Tier is dead :<
Did I mention this thing kills? Maybe another time.

Dancing Blade, fair and usmash is all marf needs. Still though, they pretty much require the enemy to fall into their KO moves, they cant really pressure anyone into it well... At least marth has the strongest (not impossible to land) attack in the game https://gfycat.com/MediumQueasyCuscus lol

 

[Trifroze]

I would actually be interested in this kind of thing. It'd be neat to see where the cast stands on KO power.

Spoiler

I'm assuming Is #0

With that said, Duck Hunt would benefit substantially if his smashes just plain linked better.

There really is no contest. Ganondorf would easily take the KO ability #1 with his countless fast to average speed kill moves, attacks with good range and his large hitboxes. He has about 8 competitively applicable moves that kill at 80-140% from the center of the stage and aerials that edgeguard KO at 10-80% and are very easy to land on half the cast. Hell, usmash is safe on shield (or in general) and fsmash is safe on shield when spaced vs some of the slower characters.

Ness has his back throw but there's only so much one move will get you when it requires you to predictably chase down the opponent. I'm not sure I'd put Ness in top 5; Bowser, Falcon, Robin, Mac, Mewtwo, Luigi, Rosalina and Dedede have as much or more of a chance to claim a position there. Maybe some others too, although leaving Lucario out because he requires to be at kill percent to be able to kill. Also kinda fanboying Meta Knight right now in that regard, he has a lot more kill power than I thought and actual setups and easy frametraps to up b kills.

 

[Shaya]

Dancing Blade, fair and usmash is all marf needs. Still though, they pretty much require the enemy to fall into their KO moves, they cant really pressure anyone into it well... At least marth has the strongest (not impossible to land) attack in the game https://gfycat.com/MediumQueasyCuscus lol

Forward Air will always be DAT AERIAL, but I think any usage of it in neutral position is pretty meh. Back air is 1 frame start up later and 2 frames longer cool down but better reach, better damage hence safety and an actual auto cancel worth something (making it his least cool down aerial for landing with). If you're fairing off the ground, I think bair is better like 95% of the time. Just a meta thing but a lot of characters have good over-arcing strike moves now (Sheik fair/bouncing fish, etc) and an attack rising from below is a lot better means of beating them then Fair would as it exposes his arm in front and above (i.e. where his hitbox will come from) well prior to the actual hitbox.

I think the best way to think about Marth/Lucina right now is they actually are scary when they dash again. Their dash to shield has been terrible in two games and when this approach was legitimately all they could do they didn't have a chance to compete. When one option suddenly exists that is strong, then all the other things suddenly become more usable.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Last place talk? I love last place talk!!

Honestly I think there isnt a single "worst" character, not at this point at least. Rather we have a group of solidly underwhelming fighters that were waiting to see something impressive from before we can remove them from that list.

From my own group Ive removed G&W and Lucina, and Puff looks to be next but I still havent seen much from her.

My own 'last place' list looks like this:
Too light to be consistent is her biggest downside, and rest can be punished on KO if they dont get sent to the fore or background. Has some decent potential though.
Dont feel great putting her here but her kit just doesnt flow well to me. Good kill power but poor setups and poor speed really hold her back.
Way too slow, combo food, and doesnt get enough off of good reads to warrant using over some of the other heavies. Maybe dash claw can save him but someone needs to prove it.
Another victim of a poor kit, default specials are pretty lack luster, charge shot is threatening but predictable. Again, hopefully someone can put her customs on display and make her work.
Their difficulties are well documented, recent buffs may help but its yet to be seen by how much.
Going to mention her strictly for customs off, we all know she has potential with them on. Just not much to fear from her without them though.
Honestly I dont see him having any success. Way way too slow, gets juggled for days, one of the worst specials in the game, predictable recovery. Good disjoints cant make up for all his glaring flaws. IMO he is the worst, I dont understand what kind of masochism drives people to main him. Why, Smooth Criminal, why?!

 

[Mr. Johan]

just needs Wind Jab to link 100% of the time, Fire Jab back up to snuff, maybe a slightly bigger Fireball or blast radius for the Arcfire pillar, and larger radii for Elthunder, Arcthunder, and Thoron. Kirby, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, and Wii Fit Trainer are nightmarish enough crouching Robin's BnB as if they were born to do it, let's get these moves larger so that no one else on the cast gets privy about it later.

 

[Nobie]

Forward Air will always be DAT AERIAL, but I think any usage of it in neutral position is pretty meh. Back air is 1 frame start up later and 2 frames longer cool down but better reach, better damage hence safety and an actual auto cancel worth something (making it his least cool down aerial for landing with). If you're fairing off the ground, I think bair is better like 95% of the time. Just a meta thing but a lot of characters have good over-arcing strike moves now (Sheik fair/bouncing fish, etc) and an attack rising from below is a lot better means of beating them then Fair would as it exposes his arm in front and above (i.e. where his hitbox will come from) well prior to the actual hitbox.

I think the best way to think about Marth/Lucina right now is they actually are scary when they dash again. Their dash to shield has been terrible in two games and when this approach was legitimately all they could do they didn't have a chance to compete. When one option suddenly exists that is strong, then all the other things suddenly become more usable.

I think this really goes to show how delicate balancing really is. Sometimes we see a change like "2% more damage to X move" or "1 frame faster on recovery" and think that it's Sakurai throwing us a bone, but minute changes can have major repercussions, let alone larger ones.

 

[deepseadiva]

That was Cassio, but I don't remember if Thinkaman made one.

THANK YOU

That helped me find this much more accurate list:

The real list: (time measured from point of armor/invincibility)

Standard ground attack
Standard aerial attack
Standard special (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Natural OoS standard attack (ground)
Natural OoS up-b (ground/air/wavebounceable if applicable)
Conditional move combination
Vertical kill move--superior, more reliable/consist kill power

1. Jigglypuff Rest: frame 2 but invincible frame 1, kills at 60%.
2. Little Mac ground KO Punch: frame 9 but armored frame 4 or 8, kills at 24%.
3. Little Mac Rising Uppercut: frame 3 but invincible frame 1, kills at 114%.
4. ZSS Lateral Kick: frame 4, kills at 77%.
5. Doc Super Jump Punch: frame 3, kills at 122%.
6. ZSS Boost Kick: frame 4, kills at 94%.
7. Ganondorf Dark Fists: frame 15 but armored frame 5, kills at 80%.
8. Falco bair: frame 4, kills at 101%.
9. Zelda bair: frame 6, kills at 71%.
10. Charizard Fly: frame 9 but armored frame 4, kills at 112%.
11. Doc Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 88%.
12. Little Mac f-tilt: frame 4, kills at 114%.
13. Yoshi nair: frame 3, kills at 161%.
14. Luigi nair: frame 3, kills at 165%.
15. Pac-Man/Mii Brawler nair: frame 3, kills at 167%.
16. Zelda Farore's Wind: frame 7, kills at 71%.
17. Mii Brawler Piston Punch: frame 4, kills at 124%.
18. Mario Explosive Jump Punch: frame 5, kills at 101%.
19. Megaman u-tilt: frame 6, kills at 86%.
20. WFT bair + deep breathing: frame 6, kills at 93%.
21. Luigi Super Jump Punch: frame 8, kills at 70%.
22. Shulk grab -> b-throw + extreme Smash: frame 7, kills at 80%.
23. Marth f-smash: frame ~11-12 (varies by contact point), kills at 56%.
24. Ness grab -> b-throw: frame 6, kills at 101%.
25. Villager Timber axe: frame 6, kills at 103%.
26. Charizard u-smash: frame 6, kills at 109%.
    
27. WFT bair: frame 6, kills at 110%.
28. Zelda d-smash: frame 5, kills at 134%.
29. Zelda fair: frame 9, kills at 74%.
30. Shulk (Advancing) Air Slash + extreme Smash: frame 10, kills at 68%.

If you keep going, you'd start to quickly see a lot of u-smashes and strong bairs, as well as known fast-and-strong moves like WFT f-tilt and Mii Brawler Helicopter Kick I think high-aura Lucario would have a bunch of attacks soon as well.

So from that list these characters are represented in this order:


But that's not accurate as a "KO Power Rankings". I doubt Jigglypuff is landing Rest 3 stocks a match. It takes some interpretation comparing the strength/speed of those above moves into "how easy they are to land".


Top 6. Mac, Ganon, and Luigi as the top 3 for the powehouses they are, and then Ness, Shulk for their kill throws (Shulk with customs), and Lucario because of aura. Not how sure the rest of the cast would be ranked.

 

[Quickhero]

just needs Wind Jab to link 100% of the time.

Honestly, unless your name is Marth and other characters with invincibility frames for 4+ frames, it will almost always link. Quite frankly it's a major buff for Robin and I think people need to use it more. A kill move in the form of a 4 frame jab is just such a good thing. Robin got buffed a lot by the wind jab and honestly Robin doesn't need any buffs right now because clearly he has the tools to become really good and it's great to see how characters like Robin can just get bugfixes and improve significantly from it. :3

 

[Shaya]

I think this really goes to show how delicate balancing really is. Sometimes we see a change like "2% more damage to X move" or "1 frame faster on recovery" and think that it's Sakurai throwing us a bone, but minute changes can have major repercussions, let alone larger ones.

League of Legends taught me this truth. Its base of millions and millions of data references show this statistically. That extra 10 damage, "oh what a joke buff, Riot hates us" and within a few weeks suddenly their sub 50% win rate explodes towards 60% and they have to cut (usually different) things back. So so so many small things I call the "1% changes" that work out in an exponentially bigger way when you start to consider "1% in every instance of interaction". It begs the question of what's the difference between popularity and actual strength, which will always skew things, but even over the short term results can definitely start to show.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Oh I understand that Wind Jab's buff is fantastic. I've been over the moon about it.

But if you're going to make a move with an ammo count, tethered to the move that's Robin's only recovery option, you better make sure it works in all circumstances, invincibility and floatiness be damned.

 

[FimPhym]

People got real misunderstandings about dedede. He's fine vs a lot of the cast, and no where near as bad in half the areas as people seem to guess. Rather than explain it all here, just go watch videos of j dawg. He plays dedede for what he is.

I think some people fundamentally don't "get" heavies, and out of the heavies, dedede is a weirdo one who has an even more skewed play style. It's easy to imagine how he plays and just be wrong because it's a totally different mind set from other characters.

This fact is absolutely killing me trying to learn new characters btw, lots of dedede fundamentals just don't transfer at all. Blah.

Edit: he still sucks and might be one of the worst in the game, but man people's reasoning for why is awful. It's like reading people say diddy is good because his down smash and peanut popgun are so strong. Good conclusion but I'm not sure I like the reasoning. Dedede is bad because the game plan he is worst against is shared by many top tiers on top of them just being generally stronger characters. An unlucky coincidence. If the game was dominated by different characters, dedede would be so much happier.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Forward Air will always be DAT AERIAL, but I think any usage of it in neutral position is pretty meh. Back air is 1 frame start up later and 2 frames longer cool down but better reach, better damage hence safety and an actual auto cancel worth something (making it his least cool down aerial for landing with). If you're fairing off the ground, I think bair is better like 95% of the time. Just a meta thing but a lot of characters have good over-arcing strike moves now (Sheik fair/bouncing fish, etc) and an attack rising from below is a lot better means of beating them then Fair would as it exposes his arm in front and above (i.e. where his hitbox will come from) well prior to the actual hitbox.

I think the best way to think about Marth/Lucina right now is they actually are scary when they dash again. Their dash to shield has been terrible in two games and when this approach was legitimately all they could do they didn't have a chance to compete. When one option suddenly exists that is strong, then all the other things suddenly become more usable.

I can't tell what character you're talking about here. I'm assuming Marcina based on the second paragraph but I was reading the entire first paragraph thinking you meant Ganondorf so I'm confused.

 

[Pyr]

League of Legends taught me this truth. It's base of millions and millions of data references show this statistically. That extra 10 damage, "oh what a joke buff, Riot hates us" and within a few weeks suddenly their sub 50% win rate explodes towards 60% and they have to cut things back. So so so many small things I call the "1% changes" that work out in an exponentially bigger way when you start to consider "1% in every instance of interaction". It begs the question of what's the difference between popularity and actual strength, which will always skew things, but even over the short term results can definitely start to show.

This is very, very true. Small changes affect a character in a big way. There are tons of examples.

A little OT, but... Vlad received a nerf to his pool that was documented in the patch notes and his win rate dropped from the 50s to 45% iirc... It was the movement speed gain in the first second of the pool iirc. Issue is is that the nerf wasn't actually applied in that patch. Rioter commented on it on a reddit thread a few months ago. Player perception alone caused a huge drop

So, while small changes can have a large impact, player perception can have a big impact, which I think you were touching on in the last bit of your post. And that Vlad change is trivia, too... I just love League trivia. =p

 

[Shaya]

ZeRo is back in SoCal btw, and I believe is about to play Larry in Winner's Finals: http://www.twitch.tv/fadgames
EDIT: LITERALLY STARTING NOW
I don't know if they've had a head to head recently, but hopefully it'll be a good set.

And yeah, perception is a lot of everything too.
If I'm told I can't use vlad's pool to help me escape something, then you stop thinking of it in the same way and probably predispose you to not using it properly. I said prior to this patch that Marth doing well usually involves dancing blade "working out for him", but I would usually opt not to use it because it wasn't reliable. Now I'm just having to remind myself to use it again.

 

[Trifroze]

THANK YOU

That helped me find this much more accurate list:



So from that list these characters are represented in this order:


But that's not accurate as a "KO Power Rankings". I doubt Jigglypuff is landing Rest 3 stocks a match. It takes some interpretation comparing the strength/speed of those above moves into "how easy they are to land".


Top 6. Mac, Ganon, and Luigi as the top 3 for the powehouses they are, and then Ness, Shulk for their kill throws (Shulk with customs), and Lucario because of aura. Not how sure the rest of the cast would be ranked.

What is a list like this good for? The numbers indicate the tests haven't been done with proper DI and it glorifies superarmor; if a move has 15 frame startup, you'll be grabbed or the attack will get shielded and punished most of the time if you just throw it out like you would a sub 10 frame move even if it has superarmor all the way from frame 1.

The list doesn't seem to strictly measure KO power because Ganondorf kills at 3%, and it doesn't seem to measure KO ability either because it's using some very unreliable moves or optimal situations as examples while completely disregarding meteors, endlag, hitboxes and a bunch of other important factors. I'm all for making lists and speculation but I'd personally rather have them made with some better basis.

 

[Radical Larry]

You know, you can always use Ganondorf as practice to perfect shield. As well, I suggest using Mario since I found that those two can help practice perfect shielding timing.

And to be fair, Ganondorf is like Donkey Kong, don't underestimate him or else you will get defeated within a snap.

 

[Nysyr]

Fox's Jab isn't an infinite (AFAIK), though it does chain into itself multiple times and guarantees an U-smash. While it's powerful, annoying, and quite frankly a little cheesy, it's certainly not going to make matchups unwinnable.

That's escapable almost immediately for some characters. It's nothing game breaking and is likely to get patched anyways. I think Links was patched because it was harder to escape and had more damage output. Tbh, I don't see anyone complaining about that. People don't groan when Fox gets a jab the way people would when Diddy got a grab pre-patch, and I don't even see it used too often anyways. It'll probably get patched tho :Sakurai:

Its an infinite on Lucario, Shulk, and Bowser Jr. iirc. All percentages.

Even if it wasn't infinite passed say 130%, it wouldn't matter because Fox usmash already kills at like 110% average on the cast.

It's a very Big problem for Lucario since his fastest move is grab at F6.

 

[Cassio]

Top of zeros tier list

"A likely top 5: 1.- Sheik 2.- Rosalina 3.-/4.- Ness/Lugi (Not sure). Then a bunch of characters after. "

He has sonic as 5th, and diddy, yoshi and several others below that as other good characters.

Kind of agree that diddy is overrated right now, but if you saw my discussion on the matter earlier you might've guessed that, lol.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Its an infinite on Lucario, Shulk, and Bowser Jr. iirc. All percentages.

Even if it wasn't infinite passed say 130%, it wouldn't matter because Fox usmash already kills at like 110% average on the cast.

It's a very Big problem for Lucario since his fastest move is grab at F6.

Again, it'll most likely get patched. Why is this suddenly a big deal?

 

[bc1910]

Yeah I'm not sure why this is suddenly coming to light, Fox's silly jab has been in since vanilla. And unless the Fox player is frame perfect, a lot of characters can escape with ease.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Top of zeros tier list

"A likely top 5: 1.- Sheik 2.- Rosalina 3.-/4.- Ness/Lugi (Not sure). Then a bunch of characters after. "

He has sonic as 5th, and diddy, yoshi and several others below that as other good characters.

Kind of agree that diddy is overrated right now, but if you saw my discussion on the matter earlier you might've guessed that, lol.

I dont think Diddy is overrated at all and think anyone who has him out of the top 5 is underrating him. His kill power got knocked down from the absurd levels it was at before, thats all. Now its in line with everyone else, needing smash attacks more than aerials to take stocks. Yet, thanks to banana, he can land those smashes with relative ease.

He still has stupid good frame data and disjoints, and damage racking is essentially the same since the KB nerfs actually help his combos. He still has a claim at being number 1, especially if Sheik is the one hes fighting it for. I mean, if Diddy drops because he lost kill power, (yet still kills better than Sheik) then why is Sheik now above him when theyre equally dominant in other areas? On what grounds is he not top 5, let alone top 3?