Character Competitive Impressions

[David Viran]

YOur talking to a samus main i understand that prefferance very well for the grab. im just saying that less cqc tools for diddy is generally a worse out come expecially since shield grabbing become much more strict as well as punishable.
nobody wants to get u throw to u aired

Well I mean a frame 1 jab and frame 3 utilt with invincible legs are pretty good if he feels the need to challenge with attacks or grabs.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well I mean a frame 1 jab and frame 3 utilt with invincible legs are pretty good if he feels the need to challenge with attacks or grabs.

if hes challeging your grabs you best be knowing what your doing. its quite painfull if ya miss.

 

[Nu~]

EVO is going to be fun. We either laugh at the ****storm, or enjoy the diversity that customs have to offer if they aren't too broken.

 

[thehard]

Why is @ Seagull Joe addressing this thread like its posters make the rules? Why don't you talk to someone at Xanadu or someth-

Today is complain about smash 4 monday, where everyone wants something banned, and their reasoning is "it's stupid" #SmashBros #adapt

— Scott (@TheTantalus) March 23, 2015

Oh.

 

[Djent]

Well we've got ...why not play Ultimate Nintendo vs. Capcom? Let the jank flow through you.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Why is @ Seagull Joe addressing this thread like its posters make the rules? Why don't you talk to someone at Xanadu or someth-

Today is complain about smash 4 monday, where everyone wants something banned, and their reasoning is "it's stupid" #SmashBros #adapt

— Scott (@TheTantalus) March 23, 2015

Oh.

Wait, im not at total dissagreement with joe but is he implying that adapting and making strategies is not the answer?
if so im greatly confused as to what i should use my brain for.

*edit* i had a brain fart i think. i don't understand anything anymore -.-

 

[Seagull Joe]

Why is @ Seagull Joe addressing this thread like its posters make the rules? Why don't you talk to someone at Xanadu or someth-

Today is complain about smash 4 monday, where everyone wants something banned, and their reasoning is "it's stupid" #SmashBros #adapt

— Scott (@TheTantalus) March 23, 2015

Oh.

Tantalus and I talk daily (He's in my crew). That was pure troll bait on his part.

Tantalus: And this isn't in general towards customs. Like, if we have to do an LGL to keep customs that is borderline insane to me

Do you only post blanket statements, or do you actually participate in discussion and give your reasoning? Don't think I've seen anything discussion-worthy from you yet.

I've given my reasoning on multiple occasions. I'm honestly tired of posting the same things over and over. I will if you really want me to.

Is this a troll/bait post, or did you have twitch chat open in another tab and typed here by accident?

Care to explain your reasoning please?

I don't expect someone with a join date of two days ago to assume anything intelligent when one of their posts discusses me trolling or posting like it was twitch chat. Like what...? This is a public forum. This is not a place for idiocy like twitch chat.

I've been a long time active poster on smashboards.

 

[David Viran]

if hes challeging your grabs you best be knowing what your doing. its quite painfull if ya miss.

Luckily her grab out ranges Diddy. If you are close to Diddy honestly unless you are confident on getting that grab I would just run away or jump or something if he sheilds.

 

[Balgorxz]

well after a lot of custom tournaments that I've watched/attend lately I think my personal tier list has changed a lot since it includes customs now, anyways here I go.
Tier 1:

Tier 2:

Tier 3:

Tier 4:

Need more experimenting Tier: Everyone else

 

[Blue Ninjakoopa]

I take solace in the fact people are slowly leaning towards Yoshi not actually being top 5. Just took almost 6 months of losing videos 90% of the time and next to zero 1st placings to finally say "maybe he really isn't that good?"

I think the same can be said about Bowser, Link, and Lucario. Despite getting ostensive buffs, their tournament results have all been middling.

 

[Pyr]

I've given my reasoning on multiple occasions. I'm honestly tired of posting the same things over and over. I will if you really want me to.

Please? Copy-paste if you want to. As always, I want to see it like you do.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Please? Copy-paste if you want to. As always, I want to see it like you do.

They dwindle the game into a game of avoidance tactics. The game becomes even more campy and timeouts become even more apparent. Take for example. Who would want to challenge his kong cyclone and take absurd damage or die? No one. The only tactic then becomes to run away and camp. This is what happens with a lot of the good customs. They don't suddenly make characters more viable by their own gain. They provide cheap exploits that don't take into account spacing or priority. There is is a clear different between out thinking an opponent and out janking them.

 

[Anomilus]

They dwindle the game into a game of avoidance tactics. The game becomes even more campy and timeouts become even more apparent. Take for example. Who would want to challenge his kong cyclone and take absurd damage or die? No one. The only tactic then becomes to run away and camp. This is what happens with a lot of the good customs. They don't suddenly make characters more viable by their own gain. They provide cheap exploits that don't take into account spacing or priority. There is is a clear different between out thinking an opponent and out janking them.

You're seriously doing this again??

I could have sworn it was discussed that Kong Cyclone only hits at the start and end. You're making it sound like it traps for crazy damage when it darn well does not.

Also

 

[thehard]

Woah, that guy joined Smashboards more than 4 years before you, @ Seagull Joe ! You better listen to him.

It's really funny that you're annoyed at people being annoyed at you when you popped in to stir the pot and nothing else. If you're just looking to fear-monger don't bother

I'm not gonna try to challenge your claim of "troll bait" on TheTantalus' part but he goes on to make a couple more reasonable arguments that seem diametrically opposed to what you're saying.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

They dwindle the game into a game of avoidance tactics. The game becomes even more campy and timeouts become even more apparent. Take for example. Who would want to challenge his kong cyclone and take absurd damage or die? No one. The only tactic then becomes to run away and camp. This is what happens with a lot of the good customs. They don't suddenly make characters more viable by their own gain. They provide cheap exploits that don't take into account spacing or priority. There is is a clear different between out thinking an opponent and out janking them.

See i get this but we also seen other wise on plenty of streams, not to discredit your point but there already are moves /characters that exist that invoke this play style. Im sure you know who they are. There the top tiers. Do you think sonic matches all coincedentally end up camp fests? same with diddy. People are afraid to get grabbed, Why even have defensive options against quick attack?, needles? And maybe its not a good idea to give these type of options to other characters. But like hell should we ban it because people have not figured it out. resoting to camping is useually the main tactic to dealing with mu's you don't understand. All the first wiiu tournys were riddled with time outs. its human to act this way. simply learn what you can do. There's quite a few write ups on almost all the moves ya stated friend people won't just sit idle and let moves push them around. It did not happen in melee and people hated it in brawl.

 

[Pyr]

They dwindle the game into a game of avoidance tactics. The game becomes even more campy and timeouts become even more apparent. Take for example. Who would want to challenge his kong cyclone and take absurd damage or die? No one. The only tactic then becomes to run away and camp. This is what happens with a lot of the good customs. They don't suddenly make characters more viable by their own gain. They provide cheap exploits that don't take into account spacing or priority. There is is a clear different between out thinking an opponent and out janking them.

I'll give you the fact that Kong Cyclone is kind of ridiculous. M2K used nothing but it in a few matches on the MVG(?) stream. I watched them while I set up 510 custom sets. Said his performance with it matched that with Diddy and he didn't even know DK. Now, it's M2K, so we've got to take that stance with a grain of salt.

That said, it's important to remember that jank is at it's... Um... Jankiest in the beginning. I give it 2 months before custom moves, specific ones, are dissected and broken down. For example, Doc's custom down B, soaring, was considered broken by a few people. I showed people that that was not the case. Given enough time, Kong Cyclone can have this done to it as well. And Timber Counter. And Extreme Balloon trip. Ganon has a "Murder this Move" thread on his boards that examine specific moves and finds ways to deal with them. There is kind of one (that's deadish) on these forums as well. Cyclone is beatable, even with endlag being negated, if you can hit him within it's startup. Still got to respect it, but no one will be losing to it in 2 months, mark my words.

Inexperience breeds outcry these days. Even from the best. But Jank will fade in time. It will fade a lot before Evo. I'd bet anything on it.

 

[Locke 06]

Inexperience breeds outcry these days. Even from the best. But Jank will fade in time. It will fade a lot before Evo. I'd bet anything on it.

And, like APEX, people keep their tech secret before unveiling it so that people do not have experience.

Remember the Link Jab combo? Jank. L@rry Lurr jab cancels? Jank. Diddy Uthrow>Uair? Jank. Jank that won important games before anyone knew what to do.

Edit: "Jank" has a loose definition btw. But these were things that many people, when they saw it, went "what. I didn't know that existed."

 

[thehard]

Ya M2K said Shulk was top tier because he could smash attack a custom Villager on the ledge on the same stream

 

[Seagull Joe]

I'll give you the fact that Kong Cyclone is kind of ridiculous. M2K used nothing but it in a few matches on the MVG(?) stream. I watched them while I set up 510 custom sets. Said his performance with it matched that with Diddy and he didn't even know DK. Now, it's M2K, so we've got to take that stance with a grain of salt.

That said, it's important to remember that jank is at it's... Um... Jankiest in the beginning. I give it 2 months before custom moves, specific ones, are dissected and broken down. For example, Doc's custom down B, soaring, was considered broken by a few people. I showed people that that was not the case. Given enough time, Kong Cyclone can have this done to it as well. And Timber Counter. And Extreme Balloon trip. Ganon has a "Murder this Move" thread on his boards that examine specific moves and finds ways to deal with them. There is kind of one (that's deadish) on these forums as well. Cyclone is beatable, even with endlag being negated, if you can hit him within it's startup. Still got to respect it, but no one will be losing to it in 2 months, mark my words.

Inexperience breeds outcry these days. Even from the best. But Jank will fade in time. It will fade a lot before Evo. I'd bet anything on it.

How did you show 's down b wasn't good? I'd love to hear this.

I went into training mode and put fire spindash on my . Do you know how much damage I did with one side b connect? 35%. That's ridiculous. Do you know how early 's Usmash already kills? Hammer spin dash ground pounds the opponent and allows a full charge one to kill at like 60%. I don't feel good doing this stuff. Why should I be rewarded SO MUCH for simply spindashing someone?

And, like APEX, people keep their tech secret before unveiling it so that people do not have experience.

Remember the Link Jab combo? Jank. L@rry Lurr jab cancels? Jank. Diddy Uthrow>Uair? Jank. Jank that won important games before anyone knew what to do.

Edit: "Jank" has a loose definition btw. But these were things that many people, when they saw it, went "what. I didn't know that existed."

I knew about all that stuff. All the players who played competitively have known those things. Leffen showcased 's Uthrow>Uair. Videos were made to display and 's jab cancels, which can be SDI'd by the way.

 

[Pyr]

How did you show :4doctormario:'s down b wasn't good? I'd love to hear this.

I went into training mode and put fire spindash on my . Do you know how much damage I did with one side b connect? 35%. That's ridiculous. Do you know how early 's Usmash already kills? Hammer spin dash ground pounds the opponent and allows a full charge one to kill at like 60%. I don't feel good doing this stuff. Why should I be rewarded SO MUCH for simply spindashing someone?

Can't speak for Sonic (lack experience with him), but here's my post:

No. The move is beastly if it hits. Thing is, it's hitbox is HUGE. Like, 2x the size of Doc at the end of the move itself. And, because it's base KB is very high, and they're trying to stage spike, they get hit to the closest blast zone.

Thing about it is, if the people in those gifs were to wait .25 seconds more, the hitbox would be done and Doc would be vulnerable until he falls the distance of his "Ol One-Two" special. He can't do anything for that distance.

Anyone getting killed by it in any other way is getting punished hard, because the thing has like 40 frames before the hitbox that does damage comes out. It can't be true combo-d into, either.


Tl;DR People aren't respecting it, so they're dying from it.

Edit:

1. Soaring Tornado (aerial)
2. Frame 10-33: [0%]x6 100f/40w 361°
3. Frame 40-58: 6.72% 90b/120g (KO@ 117%) 42° 2.0-Hitlag
4. Max Damage: 6.72%

So, it has a windbox for 23 frames, a hitbox with 18 active frames starting at frame 40. Respect those 18 frames and punish from there. It only does 7 damage, so it's not exactly going to shield stun you for a year. If you wait it out, shield it at the edge, w/e, and hit Doc after frame 58, he's dead. He can't use it again after being hit UNLESS he grabs the ledge or touches the ground first.

Also, ground is the same. See:

1. Soaring Tornado (ground)
2. Frame 10-33: [0%]x6 100f/40w 361°
3. Frame 40-58: 6.72% 90b/120g (KO@ 117%) 42° 2.0-Hitlag
4. Max Damage: 6.72%

It was well received. Haven't seen Doc hate anywhere since it.

 

[thehard]

I thought Sonic's default side-b also did 35% damage

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can't speak for Sonic (lack experience with him), but here's my post:

It was well received. Haven't seen Doc hate anywhere since it.

You're literally just posting frame data! You didn't even describe the practicality of the move in terms of combo potential or gimping. I'm sure someone could just run offstage and clip with down b to kill if they wanted to when someone is recovering. 's do it all the time.

I thought Sonic's default side-b also did 35% damage

No. That'd mean I'd only need 3 exchanges to have my opponent at kill percent for Bair or Bthrow. That's ludicrous. I'm going to bed lol. Done here for now.

 

[Locke 06]

How did you show :4doctormario:'s down b wasn't good? I'd love to hear this.

I went into training mode and put fire spindash on my . Do you know how much damage I did with one side b connect? 35%. That's ridiculous. Do you know how early 's Usmash already kills? Hammer spin dash ground pounds the opponent and allows a full charge one to kill at like 60%. I don't feel good doing this stuff. Why should I be rewarded SO MUCH for simply spindashing someone?

I knew about all that stuff. All the players who played competitively have known those things. Leffen showcased 's Uthrow>Uair. Videos were made to display and 's jab cancels, which can be SDI'd by the way.

If I'm not mistaken, it caught a decent amount of players at APEX by surprise. I know a lot of competitive players knew those things before APEX, but counterplays were not widely known due to lack of exposure. Also, I'm pretty sure those videos you're thinking about were made post-APEX.

If I am mistaken, then just ignore.

 

[thehard]

No. That'd mean I'd only need 3 exchanges to have my opponent at kill percent for Bair or Bthrow. That's ludicrous. I'm going to bed lol. Done here for now.

Aw come on I was just being funny

Do you have any custom tournament anecdotes to share with us? Those are a bit heavier than simply saying you attacked CPUs in Training Mode

 

[|RK|]

I thought Sonic's default side-b also did 35% damage

30% ish, I think. Pretty similar.

How did you show 's down b wasn't good? I'd love to hear this.

I went into training mode and put fire spindash on my . Do you know how much damage I did with one side b connect? 35%. That's ridiculous. Do you know how early 's Usmash already kills? Hammer spin dash ground pounds the opponent and allows a full charge one to kill at like 60%. I don't feel good doing this stuff. Why should I be rewarded SO MUCH for simply spindashing someone?

I knew about all that stuff. All the players who played competitively have known those things. Leffen showcased 's Uthrow>Uair. Videos were made to display and 's jab cancels, which can be SDI'd by the way.

You know, I'm reading your posts, and I'm really not getting a sense that customs are bad from them. You indiscriminately dislike all customs, including those that you've only played around with in training mode, saying that they have "too much reward." You're a high-level player - why not try it out in tournament first?

 

[Project Quarantine]

Aww...

Custom Pac could be the answer to the Diddy/Shiek menace...

ZSS, Rosalina, Mario, Yoshi, and Sonic don't need secondaries. Pretty sure Luigi is okay without one despite his somewhat bad MUs with Rosie and Megaman.

Luigi needs a secondary (to win a national) because there is megaman and rosa, but also villager, sheik, Zss, and even pacman or duck hunt to offer a lopsided MU.

But on the topic of "needing a secondary," it really depends on point of views. Technically, nobody NEEDS a secondary (imo), but at the same time you could argue that to win at the top level, Diddy is the only character where you don't need a secondary, simply because he's favored or even in every MU (as far as many can tell).

 

[Conda]

You're literally just posting frame data! You didn't even describe the practicality of the move in terms of combo potential or gimping. I'm sure someone could just run offstage and clip with down b to kill if they wanted to when someone is recovering. 's do it all the time.

No. That'd mean I'd only need 3 exchanges to have my opponent at kill percent for Bair or Bthrow. That's ludicrous. I'm going to bed lol. Done here for now.

So... Dr. Mario going offstage and using that custom down B to gimp someone with its specific startup frames is... jank? How is this jank? What's wrong with utilizing the move to edgeguard? Is edgeguarding jank? In melee, you can gimp recoveries way easier across the board - was that jank too?

So what if DK can do some nasty mobility stuff with kong cyclone. If he had it since Smash 64 we'd think it was a core part of him, and we'd be used to it. People are simply freaking out, and continuing the bedside manner discussions would be a crazy idea.

 

[Blobface]

They dwindle the game into a game of avoidance tactics. The game becomes even more campy and timeouts become even more apparent. Take for example. Who would want to challenge his kong cyclone and take absurd damage or die? No one. The only tactic then becomes to run away and camp. This is what happens with a lot of the good customs. They don't suddenly make characters more viable by their own gain. They provide cheap exploits that don't take into account spacing or priority. There is is a clear different between out thinking an opponent and out janking them.

Kong cyclone does 13% fresh and doesn't kill until well over 140% on light characters near the top of the screen. Most U-air's kill earlier in those circumstances. See SW17 Emery vs Aerolink

Also, stop bringing up people's join dates as an argument. Correlating join date and game experience is dubious enough, but it's basically the argumentative equivalent of saying "well your opinion doesn't count". It's barely better than a flat-out insult.


Anyway, about the S,A,B,C, thing, I noticed that a few things come up pretty frequently when discussing a character of questionable viability. Most characters with their viability questioned only have a few especially bad match ups. So:

• Characters in S tier never/almost never had their viability questioned.
• Characters in A tier are clearly viable, but definitely not S tier. Thus, no secondaries needed.
• Characters in B tier have a few particularly bad matchups, especially against S tier, that are bad enough to possibly justify a secondary, but they're not unbeatable by any means.
• Characters in C tier have a few matchups so bad that they cannot reasonably be beaten in a competitive environment, and thus, they need a secondary.

For example, non-customs, I'd put Diddy in S, Fox in A, Bowser in B, and Little Mac in C.
Diddy is pretty self-explanatory.
Fox has a ton of excellent qualities, but he has enough drawbacks that he's in A.
Bowser has some terrible match ups against S tiers, but they're not un winnable. A secondary would be useful, but not mandatory.
Mac is a character with obvious pros, but some of his bad matchups are so bad that nobody could main only Mac. You'd need someone to beat the likes of Metaknight.

 

[thehard]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CA0IowpWYAAdlOT.jpg

 

[deepseadiva]

Heavy skull bash, timber counter, kong cyclone, hammer spin dash, what's next? Why are you people so foolish to allow your game to break down into a non modded version of Brawl Minus? Prepare for EVO jank.

FOOLISH FOOLS why would we EVER allow Pikachu, Villager, DK, or Sonic to compete for the top spots?

 

[Shaya]

Seagull Joe, you're not going to get keyboard-warriors who don't impact tournaments to actually have a pragmatic understanding to why these things are problems.
A counter existing to something "stupid" doesn't change it being "stupid" (yes yes, let's all argue the use of the word stupid is stupid and hence everything I say is stupid, stupid). The counter existing being a problem in and of itself, like let's say "legalizing Wii Fit Studio as it has no ledges" just goes to show how poor their understanding of the competitive game as it is. Then they'll expect for an argument to be made back and tout victory (DON'T WANT WIIFIT LEGAL? SCRUB, KEEP COMPLAINING ABOUT EXTREME BALLOON TRIP MEW2KING) while nothing actually gets resolved.

"Arrogant" (salty/biased/whatever) high level players and "modern" theorycrafters are the two extreme ends of the same 'political' spectrum . The difference is that high level players are actually relevant stakeholders to the future of the game, while theorycrafters are not (if you want I could go on about the similarities to the US' support of neo-fascist regimes in accordance to any left-wing threats throughout middle-asia/eastern europe/africa while support for socialism by world powers is all but dead [or results in UN sanctions that cripple their economies]; but alas I digress). This won't change while theorycrafters only purport "ADAPT AND GET BETTER" or suggest asinine solutions, it's a long dark future ahead of us where theorycrafting used to be something I prided myself upon.

Customs on is a different game with a different meta (it hasn't taken long for it to diverge noticeably as such, even if Diddy still takes the cake). I don't have issue with a game that has all the best characters killing at 60% (been making this statement for weeks, maybe even months now). It seems generally more and more noticeable that this is what the best characters tend to be able to do, it's not a bad thing when enough of the cast has it. The anti-meta happens to be characters with custom specials that annihilate all zoning or semblance of 'neutral' that existed in other games; in the long run that anti-meta is likely of detriment to the game's survival if those characters actually end up being high/top tier in viability (heck they don't even need to be, if they're popular people WILL quit the game [inb4 "good riddance", the attitude both sides take that always makes me sad ]).

Diddy/Sheik are still demons in customs off, virtually causing the same problems just there's even more of it; tell me Sheik isn't a shut-down-all-game-play and time you out with needles or Diddy's insanely early kill confirms aren't estranged from the rest of the cast. The problem that XYZ causes isn't resolved by having even more characters pose that problem on the rest of the metagame (broken beating broken is usually a good fun time though). But the game play differences within customs is a bit farfetched for anyone to expect the entirety of the community to accept with open arms.

I used to feel customs was just an extension of the meta or improving characters in ways that more aptly coincide with competitive play, but I really can't justify that opinion anymore. It's not that customs are bad or great or whatever else, it's asking us to play a different game when there is no way to argue one is better than the other objectively. I'm for the most part really excited to see that this game we have can have so much "in it" with just a small twinge of game-play options and would only ever want both games to continually develop (until they eventually converge). I see the issues of customs-off (Diddy) being addressed by Xyro in a "we'll ban Diddy before allowing customs, and if his dominance remains after 12 months he will be banned" and in my eyes that looks like a lot more balanced game than customs-on offers. Balancing the game ourselves is dangerous but without the willingness to do so the game will/would die (e.g. no LGL in Brawl), and that's something none of us want.

 

[RWB]

Anyone who frequents Reddit should be aware of this, but if not: http://www.twitch.tv/vsgc/v/3930427?t=7h31m51s

ESAM (Pikachu with Heavy Skull Bash) goes for a read that MVD would not jump after getting down thrown and either do an air dodge or an aerial. He does just that and kills Diddy at 40% before the hit at Castle Siege.

I must say even if it is a difficult move to sweetspot, and its long end lag, that move seems quite overpowered. And playing on a larger stage wouldn't make it any less absurd really. It needed a read to land, but the punish is way too strong. If there are guaranteed, not too difficult to perform set ups to land this move on most of the cast, I would consider banning this move.

Uh... Marth's Tipper F-Smash would kill just as easy in the situation. It's not broken at all.

 

[|RK|]

.

I think that you're misconstruing some of our arguments. That Seagull Joe is a high-level player makes his comments more disappointing. As I asked him previously - why doesn't he try those moves out in actual tournaments? The entire basis of his credibility is that he plays tournaments, and he gets results. When he begins to use training mode theorycrafting, how can you put him so far from the rest of us?

Next, and lastly - if you believe that customs-on is a completely different metagame, what makes you so certain about the nature of customs when the meta is even newer than vanilla Smash 4? Haven't we had enough of our preconceived notions about this game challenged in these first five (six-ish) months? What high-level player's opinion is relevant when they're basing their opinion on what is effectively no time in a new meta, and in training mode no less? Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy like any other - an argument needs to be based in some sort of fact. Until Seagull Joe has some kind of tangible experience playing in the customs meta, he gets to be with the rest of us peons.

Disclaimer: No disrespect intended, of course. I respect Seagull Joe as a player, and if I made any errors with regards to his experience with customs, please let me know.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

How did you show 's down b wasn't good? I'd love to hear this.

I went into training mode and put fire spindash on my . Do you know how much damage I did with one side b connect? 35%. That's ridiculous. Do you know how early 's Usmash already kills? Hammer spin dash ground pounds the opponent and allows a full charge one to kill at like 60%. I don't feel good doing this stuff. Why should I be rewarded SO MUCH for simply spindashing someone?

I knew about all that stuff. All the players who played competitively have known those things. Leffen showcased 's Uthrow>Uair. Videos were made to display and 's jab cancels, which can be SDI'd by the way.

I'd just like to say you don't get access to hammer spin dash and fire spin dash. They both have their drawbacks. Is fire spin dash a guaranteed 35 % damage all of the time? At higher percentages what happens? Does you get the same follkw ups as his regular side B?

With hammer spin dash it's basically the same questions does it always ground? How fast can an opponent mash out of it? Can you use it to rack up damage like sonic's other side B's. There's other moves in the game which ground opponents why are we freaking out about Sonic's?

How abusable are these moves? I haven't seen much custom sonic but these moves didn't seem game breaking. Continue to push your character and break the game. Let everyone else adalt to you and your character instead of adding these artificial limits you're putting out there.

What's wrong with doc's down b being good? Like is he just supposed to be trash?

Seagull Joe, you're not going to get keyboard-warriors who don't impact tournaments to actually have a pragmatic understanding to why thesehttp://www.wsj.com/articles/european-leaders-discuss-iran-nuclear-talks-1426845251things are problems.
A counter existing to something "stupid" doesn't change it being "stupid" (yes yes, let's all argue the use of the word stupid is stupid and hence everything I say is stupid, stupid). The counter existing being a problem in and of itself, like let's say "legalizing Wii Fit Studio as it has no ledges" just goes to show how poor their understanding of the competitive game as it is. Then they'll expect for an argument to be made back and tout victory (DON'T WANT WIIFIT LEGAL? SCRUB, KEEP COMPLAINING ABOUT EXTREME BALLOON TRIP MEW2KING) while nothing actually gets resolved.

"Arrogant" (salty/biased/whatever) high level players and "modern" theorycrafters are the two extreme ends of the same 'political' spectrum . The difference is that high level players are actually relevant stakeholders to the future of the game, while theorycrafters are not (if you want I could go on about the similarities to the US' support of neo-fascist regimes in accordance to any left-wing threats throughout middle-asia/eastern europe/africa while support for socialism by world powers is all but dead [or results in UN sanctions that cripple their economies]; but alas I digress). This won't change while theorycrafters only purport "ADAPT AND GET BETTER" or suggest asinine solutions, it's a long dark future ahead of us where theorycrafting used to be something I prided myself upon.

Customs on is a different game with a different meta (it hasn't taken long for it to diverge noticeably as such, even if Diddy still takes the cake). I don't have issue with a game that has all the best characters killing at 60% (been making this statement for weeks, maybe even months now). It seems generally more and more noticeable that this is what the best characters tend to be able to do, it's not a bad thing when enough of the cast has it. The anti-meta happens to be characters with custom specials that annihilate all zoning or semblance of 'neutral' that existed in other games; in the long run that anti-meta is likely of detriment to the game's survival if those characters actually end up being high/top tier in viability (heck they don't even need to be, if they're popular people WILL quit the game [inb4 "good riddance", the attitude both sides take that always makes me sad ]).

Diddy/Sheik are still demons in customs off, virtually causing the same problems just there's even more of it; tell me Sheik isn't a shut-down-all-game-play and time you out with needles or Diddy's insanely early kill confirms aren't estranged from the rest of the cast. The problem that XYZ causes isn't resolved by having even more characters pose that problem on the rest of the metagame (broken beating broken is usually a good fun time though). But the game play differences within customs is a bit farfetched for anyone to expect the entirety of the community to accept with open arms.

I used to feel customs was just an extension of the meta or improving characters in ways that more aptly coincide with competitive play, but I really can't justify that opinion anymore. It's not that customs are bad or great or whatever else, it's asking us to play a different game when there is no way to argue one is better than the other objectively. I'm for the most part really excited to see that this game we have can have so much "in it" with just a small twinge of game-play options and would only ever want both games to continually develop (until they eventually converge). I see the issues of customs-off (Diddy) being addressed by Xyro in a "we'll ban Diddy before allowing customs, and if his dominance remains after 12 months he will be banned" and in my eyes that looks like a lot more balanced game than customs-on offers. Balancing the game ourselves is dangerous but without the willingness to do so the game will/would die (e.g. no LGL in Brawl), and that's something none of us want.

Honestly, I don't see the same structure for this game as I do brawl. There's no backroom for one there's no real tourney accepted rules or stage list. 2 stocks is a joke as is 6 or 5 minutes. But then people complain it's too slow.

As flr theoru vs tournament players that's not always different and there's good players who use theory a lot and good players that don't. It's pretty sad to see the lack of respect for people in the community just because they can't attend tournaments. Everyone has different circumstances and that doesn't mean the theory guy isn't putting in work.

As for killing at 60 I haven't really seen or read what yohr talking about. Need actual examples. I'm also going to say that killing at 60 isn't a big deal considering some of the more absurd percentages I've seen people die at. If anything people dying at 60 would be justification for more stocks in the custom meta but I don't really see anyone trying that out either. It's a very hard line the anti custom people are taking and it makes very little sense.

 

[HeroMystic]

@ Shaya speaks a lot of truth in his post.

I posted something similarly, but the tl;dr version of it is, if you expect Sheik/Diddy to not be the dominant choices in a Customs metagame, you're in for a rude awakening.

Only thing customs do is give everyone really powerful specials that the player can rely on. Things get more "dumb". In a default setting, everything is more mild.

To note, I'm neither for or against customs. At first, I was all for it, but after participating in tournaments and watching custom tourneys, I can only see things getting worse before it gets better.

Edit: Fixed the link.

 

[thehard]

I've yet to understand what jank or dumb actually mean.

 

[Pyr]

@ Shaya speaks a lot of truth in his post.

I posted something similarly, but the tl;dr version of it is, if you expect Sheik/Diddy to not be the dominant choices in a Customs metagame, you're in for a rude awakening.

Only thing customs do is give everyone really powerful specials that the player can rely on. Things get more "dumb". In a default setting, everything is more mild.

To note, I'm neither for or against customs. At first, I was all for it, but after participating in tournaments and watching custom tourneys, I can only see things getting worse before it gets better.

Link isn't working for me. Is it supposed to lead to http://a-social-in-need-of-new-phantom-ours-went-on-strike.344739/page-743#post-18807885?

 

[mimgrim]

I've yet to understand what jank or dumb actually mean.

It varies from person to person and one person's jank can be another person's normal.

Generally "jank" is usually used, in the context of Smash, as slang for a "silly"/"stupid" move. Sometimes it can be bad (Melee Shine) and sometimes it can be good (a good chunk of Brawl) but, again, it varies from person to person in what "jank" can be considered good and what "jank" can be considered bad.

"Jank" is basically subjective slang for a "silly/"stupid"/insterothersimilarwordhere and is usually used in disdain.

 

[Shaya]

Now on the other side of things... this thread... ugh.

We're getting past the whole "talking about characters, learning about the game" (+ interpreting tournament results) and more so for lack of a better word: cancer.
I think it's fair for people to start building their arguments for what's going to be happening in the future after Evo. But no one should be truly supportive of one meta over the other before time has passed.

Is it possible for us to curve back to somewhere at least semi-neutral? Something new and exciting or abusive and shallow, however you spin it, we can all still talk about it without stabbing each other in the groin. And if the random immature pop-in from someone who is highly regarded needs to be dealt with, better leave it to me/mods rather than digging a deeper pit.

I think that you're misconstruing some of our arguments. That Seagull Joe is a high-level player makes his comments more disappointing. As I asked him previously - why doesn't he try those moves out in actual tournaments? The entire basis of his credibility is that he plays tournaments, and he gets results. When he begins to use training mode theorycrafting, how can you put him so far from the rest of us?

Next, and lastly - if you believe that customs-on is a completely different metagame, what makes you so certain about the nature of customs when the meta is even newer than vanilla Smash 4? Haven't we had enough of our preconceived notions about this game challenged in these first five (six-ish) months? What high-level player's opinion is relevant when they're basing their opinion on what is effectively no time in a new meta, and in training mode no less? Appeal to authority is a logical fallacy like any other - an argument needs to be based in some sort of fact. Until Seagull Joe has some kind of tangible experience playing in the customs meta, he gets to be with the rest of us peons.

Disclaimer: No disrespect intended, of course. I respect Seagull Joe as a player, and if I made any errors with regards to his experience with customs, please let me know.

They can't be the extremes of the same spectrum without both being incredibly stupid and painful most of the time. I'm mildly defending Joe because it's 1v100 (on smashboards at least), and 99 of those are just as bad if not worse.

"Next, and lastly"
Because that's the neutral stance to take in it and the reasons for that stance seem pretty logical from my point of view. Hit confirms into kill specials is a lot more prevalent with customs on than what we've seen with customs off in it's first half year. Do you need me to say more/go on?

Take away the subjective or the emotion and look at something. Then question why that subjective perspective exists and relate to it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ugh I cave, @ Shaya . I had a post and everything. Much as I agree with RK's sentiment, you definitely have a broader view; future-minded.

Smooth Criminal