Character Competitive Impressions

[TheAverageBear]

Who has better ground mobility? Yoshi
Who has better air mobility by a stupid amount? Yoshi
Who has better range on the ground? Yoshi
Who has more range in the air? Yoshi
Who has a smaller hurtbox? Yoshi
...

Who run this mother?

 

[Shaya]

I fear Robin's dash grab at the very least. It feels like their grab cool down is more pronounced than most other characters too?

 

[Thinkaman]

The thing about Thoron Robin is, virtually every character in the game has to approach him. It's important to view his moveset through that lens.

 

[Kofu]

Cape is too funny. I watched RoB vs Mario and everytime RoB D-air'd i thought he was nuts, if Mario capes the D-air, Rob meteors himself. Thats cray. Same for Megaman. D-air and U-air.

Are you sure about this? I could see the logic in it but unless Cape reverses the vertical trajectory too the attacks would just be rendered useless. I'm also skeptical about ROB's DAir counting as a "projectile" but after learning that Villager's USmash does it wouldn't surprise me (for anyone curious, Falco's reflector collided with USmash and made the reflection sound; Villager stayed safe, however).

On the topic of ROB, I agree with A2Z's assessment a few pages back that he's not a fan of the mechanics changes in general. They allow him to get a few more confirmed combos (and you can't SDI out of his multi-hit attacks anymore) but they hurt him more than anything. Hr still has his Brawl weakness of being exceedingly succeptible to juggles, and for the most part his range took a nasty hit, especially his FTilt.

That being said, he's still a solid character who has much more direct kill potential than in Brawl. He struggles to get in but has some of the best disruption tools in the game. I'd probably say high tier or high mid, depending on how the meta game devops.

 

[Cherubas]

I dunno about the cape, but I've hit Robin's wind with Ness' bat and it went up and hit him.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If Bowser's footsies are better than Yoshi's then it can't be by much ... Yoshi is ******** in this game.

 

[Shaya]

Yoshi Jab + Ftilt > The entire cast's footsies.
(Don't take this extremist comment too seriously)

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Are you sure about this? I could see the logic in it but unless Cape reverses the vertical trajectory too the attacks would just be rendered useless. I'm also skeptical about ROB's DAir counting as a "projectile" but after learning that Villager's USmash does it wouldn't surprise me (for anyone curious, Falco's reflector collided with USmash and made the reflection sound; Villager stayed safe, however).

On the topic of ROB, I agree with A2Z's assessment a few pages back that he's not a fan of the mechanics changes in general. They allow him to get a few more confirmed combos (and you can't SDI out of his multi-hit attacks anymore) but they hurt him more than anything. Hr still has his Brawl weakness of being exceedingly succeptible to juggles, and for the most part his range took a nasty hit, especially his FTilt.

That being said, he's still a solid character who has much more direct kill potential than in Brawl. He struggles to get in but has some of the best disruption tools in the game. I'd probably say high tier or high mid, depending on how the meta game devops.

Try to gimp Mario off-stage. If he capes you will fall. #Roblyfe.
I wouldn't be surprised if his down air in general is deflectable and its not just cape which makes the move mmmmm iffy on a fair amount of characters. Wonder if his back-air and U-Smash has the same property.

 

[Terotrous]

Sooo.....What's the general consensus for Link and Toon Link? I keep seeing low opinions of them despite the fact that Keitaro is doing pretty well with Link.

I actually think Tink is pretty strong. That bomb cancel gives him all kinds of pressure since he can throw aerials or projectiles at you with no recovery, and he can also confirm off the bomb for combos. He's probably one of the most technical characters in the game, but I feel like his ceiling is very high.

Link can do this too, but he's not as fast so his ability to apply pressure just isn't quite as good.

Yoshi Jab + Ftilt > The entire cast's footsies.
(Don't take this extremist comment too seriously)

Yoshi's Jab is extremely good. If it's close enough to hit, there's almost never a bad time to use it. It's particularly potent after a clank since it's so fast, if the other person also attempts to jab Yoshi will usually beat them clean or at worst clank again.

FTilt is nothing special though IMO. It's not inordinately fast, the range isn't amazing, and it doesn't lead to much. If you're close enough to hit with it, UTilt is a much better option since it starts big combos. If you aren't, DTilt is generally better than FTilt because it has more range, low profiles, and trips.

 

[PK Gaming]

I fear Robin's dash grab at the very least. It feels like their grab cool down is more pronounced than most other characters too?

Yeah, the Dash grab (especially if you roll cancel it) is pretty decent, but every other aspect of his grab game is abysmal... which is just disheartening, since grabbing is so important. Your assertion is correct; his/her grab cool down is atrocious.

The thing about Thoron Robin is, virtually every character in the game has to approach him. It's important to view his moveset through that lens.

Not every character. Sheik and Toon Link can anti-zone you. Any character that forces Robin to approach absolutely destroys him/her.

 

[Jahordon]

Why are people leaving Diddy out of the "Big Four" discussion? His game seems more solid than Greninja and ZSS' (combos better, kills better, can camp and face rush), and he has the tournament results to back it up. I think he has a rough time vs Rosalina, but so does everybody else. Diddy is absolutely nuts, and I don't know why people sleep on him.

My favorite matchup is vs Little Mac. Put a banana between you and him and start popping nuts. He has to approach from the air, which means he shouldn't touch ground for the rest of the match.

A close second is vs Dedede. Popgun reflects all his gordos right back at him.

 

[otter]

Diddy>Greninja.

 

[mimgrim]

My favorite matchup is vs Little Mac. Put a banana between you and him and start popping nuts. He has to approach from the air, which means he shouldn't touch ground for the rest of the match.

No he doesn't. He can just pick the Nanner up, or even just hit it to make it disappear (he can do the same against peanuts as well I believe). He isn't forced to approach from the air if you pout the Nanner n the ground, in fact doing so is a risk for Diddy because you are giving the opponent a chance to pick the Nanner up and use it against you.

 

[The Real Gamer]

My top 3 are Sheik, Rosaluma, and ZSS (dat gurl powah).

After that I could see any combo of Diddy, Yoshi, and Greninja at 4, 5, and 6.

Then I have Sonic and Lucario at 7 and 8, respectively.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin's projectiles are thrown out too slowly and are slow themselves to be a threat to anyone that's shielding, rolling, and jumping appropriately. Treat his projectiles like you would Zelda's Din's Fire, and count to about 7 for Thunder or 8 for Fire. Then have at it.

Robin really needed a good grab range and speed to get profit out of going into shield should someone get through the projectiles. But all he has is basically Dash Grab, Jab, SH Nair, Uair with tight spacing, Ftilt, and occasionally Dash Attack. It's tragic.

 

[popsofctown]

Robin's projectiles are thrown out too slowly and are slow themselves to be a threat to anyone that's shielding, rolling, and jumping appropriately. Treat his projectiles like you would Zelda's Din's Fire, and count to about 7 for Thunder or 8 for Fire. Then have at it.

Robin really needed a good grab range and speed to get profit out of going into shield should someone get through the projectiles. But all he has is basically Dash Grab, Jab, SH Nair, Uair with tight spacing, Ftilt, and occasionally Dash Attack. It's tragic.

That's why the most legitimate use of Robin's camp game, to me, seems to be charging Thoron (perhaps Thoron plus) and saving it for a guaranteed punish or a pretty hard read to get a kill at fairly low percent. Then hopefully having a better kill game than your opponent can counterbalance being weaker in general

 

[epicgordan]

Why is Diddy left out of the big four discussion? Not only is Greninja's combo game just as potent as Diddy Kong's, but he also comes with perhaps the best offstage gimp in the entire game with Hydro Pump.

My top 3 are Sheik, Rosaluma, and ZSS (dat gurl powah).

After that I could see any combo of Diddy, Yoshi, and Greninja at 4, 5, and 6.

Then I have Sonic and Lucario at 7 and 8, respectively.

Here's my ranking of these eight characters:

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
8.

In addition, here's how I would rank all the rest of the cast:

9.
10.
11.
12.
13.
14.
15.
16.
17.
18.
19.
20.
21.
22.
23.
24.
25.
26.
27.
28.
29.
30.
31.
32.
33.
34.
35.
36.
37.
38.
39.
40.
41.
42.
43.
44.
45.
46.
47.
48.
49.
50. (thanks a lot, update!)
51.

 

[Gamingboy]

Looking at Epicgordan's list, I realize how lucky it is for Greninja that there are no pokemon weaknesses brought over to Smash (especially now that the Pokemon Trainer pokemon weaknesses are gone), otherwise it'd be screwed against Pikachu, Robin, Ness and at least a few of the Sci-Fi fighters and it'd be waaaay farther down these lists.

 

[Novice_Brave]

I definitely agree with top 8 likely consisting of Rosa/Sheik/Greninja/ZSS/Diddy/Yoshi/Lucario/Sonic - not sure what order I'd put them in per se, but they are very strong characters. Honestly, beyond them, I feel like the power difference in the rest of the cast is decently small. Maybe Bowser/DH are a bit more far removed towards the top, but not by a huge amount. Everyone else seems pretty on par with just being good, usable characters. I don't see any particularly standout characters on the horrible side of the spectrum at all really.

(*cough* except maybe Palutena but ignore me *cough*)

 

[mimgrim]

Something to note is that Pit and Dark Pit should probably be right next to each other in placement. There are exactly 2 difference between them. Sspecial and Nspecial. Everything else is exactly the same. Of the 2 differences, on default Specials (don't have all of Pit's unlocked yet), Pit is probably ever so slightly better because Sspecial is a bit more reliable in terms of kill power across the stage (Dark Pit's is best at the edges of the stages due to the angle it sends opponents) and Nspecial is a more reliable projectile. But it is still very moot in the grand scheme of things and they should probably be next to either since nothing else is different.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What the actual **** is going on with people having Sheik as the best character in the game?!?

 

[Terotrous]

Here's what I currently feel confident on:

Top: (ordered)




High: (not ordered)




This is not to say that those lists are complete. There may be others in high tier, for example Rob looks strong and I think Pac-Man is also secret high tier, but there's not quite enough evidence for it yet. I also have my suspicions that certain characters are bottom tier, but predicting bottom tier is always riskier. It's much less often that people find tech that makes a seemingly solid character much worse than they appear to be, but the reverse situation is quite common.

The most controversial part of this list is Toon Link, but if you watch Lunchables and Hylen I don't think it's that controversial.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

We seriously value Bowser over Fox, falcon. Pika. Pits, junior, pac, so on and so forth?

I don't get where people are coming from.
Fox is being a consistent player in this early meta.
Pit and dark pit are near the same except pits Side B is better for kills, his arrows are more flexible for harassing recovery. All points to Pit > Pittoo and even then its on a level negligible enough that another character likely is not fitting in that gap.

Actually screw it.
In general what makes Bowser even a top 15 character outside of his command grab. Anyone talk matchups. Who really has bad matchups against Bowser? Half the cast? Does Bowser fair well vs top 10 characters? Nah not really.
I think the hype on Bowser needs a squashing. Rather play Brawler who himself has crazy K.O power. Piston punch/Summersault kick is nasty k.o. onslaught/ultimate uppercut.
Feintkick is sweet he has another lunge kick option that kills too.

 

[Terotrous]

We seriously value Bowser over Fox, falcon. Pika. Pits, hell or his son?

I feel fairly confident on most of those. Pika and Fox have KO problems, both have only a couple viable KO moves. Pits are just generally somewhat underwhelming IMO. Falcon is "fixed" compared to Brawl, but he's as one dimensional as always, so it's hard to know where he'll fall.

Bowser Jr is a "who knows" character. He's too new and weird to rank. Nothing between high and bottom would surprise me for him.

In general what makes Bowser even a top 15 character outside of his command grab.

Fast, strong, good range, amazing survivability, armor, etc.

He's basically the first good heavyweight character the series has ever had. The only matchup where I think Bowser looks completely terrible is vs Toon Link. He's still a big target and Toon Link can just spam stuff for days vs him. Vs most other characters he can still get in decently well and his footsies are surprisingly great.


Besides his buffs, one thing that made Bowser way better was that most projectiles no longer autocancel, significantly reducing the degree to which other characters can wall him out. Falco, for example, is now complete prey for Bowser, while this matchup was godawful in Brawl.

 

[The Real Gamer]

What the actual **** is going on with people having Sheik as the best character in the game?!?

Take my lists with a grain of salt. I base my lists off of personal experience as opposed to word of mouth so until I see/hear something that changes my mind my lists dont change regardless of accuracy or the lack of.

Speaking of which I have some time to kill. Anyone down for some friendlies?

 

[mimgrim]

He's basically the first good heavyweight character the series has ever had.

*cough*Snake*cough*

Bowser is much better in this iteration of Smash, definitely, but he still suffers mostly the same problems. Tall and fat make him prime combo fodder and projectile bait, laggy unsafe attacks, and though he might be faster then he has ever been in the past he still isn't that fast.

Also, Fox does not have KO problems.

 

[Jabejazz]

I think a lot of people put Bowser in the top ranks because of how good he is compared to what he was.

He's decent, but nothing exceptional that warrants a top 15. How you can place Bowser near characters like ZSS, Sheik, or hell, Rosaluma and Diddy, I do not understand.

Falco, for example, is now complete prey for Bowser, while this matchup was godawful in Brawl.

Falco is prey for pretty much the whole cast.

 

[Terotrous]

*cough*Snake*cough*

I suppose, though he's kind of a "technical" heavyweight, like Yoshi. I meant the big body characters.

Bowser is much better in this iteration of Smash, definitely, but he still suffers mostly the same problems. Tall and fat make him prime combo fodder and projectile bait, laggy unsafe attacks, and though he might be faster then he has ever been in the past he still isn't that fast.

He doesn't though, see the last paragraph of my post. Projectiles are much weaker now due to the lack of autocancelling, which lets him get in WAY easier. He also benefits from faster run up shield drop, allowing him to poke with Jab and Ftilt, which are both fast and strong.

Also, Fox does not have KO problems.

Not among the worst in the cast I guess, but he's certainly not Melee Fox.

Falco is prey for pretty much the whole cast.

Yes, but characters like Falco were the reason Bowser was bottom tier in Brawl. The only "new Falco" is Toon Link.

 

[Judo777]

I really don't think Sheik is the best character in the game (almost positive but obviously too early). Her kill power is so much worse than most of the other characters around her (perhaps most characters in the game). Her aerials may actually be weaker than brawl. I have people surviving fresh bairs at 150. Also had someone (granted it was complete opposite side of FD so hitting them from right ledge to left blast zone but still) survive a fresh bouncing fish at 160% before the hit yesterday. Like that is really abysmal kill power.

Not saying her kill power overall is worse than brawl (because she can setup a little better into kills and bouncing fish is a new boon) but its still pretty bad compared to most of the characters around her. She also has no combos into kills, she simply has setups that given a read can kill (the same setups she had in brawl).

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Bowser isn't fast. Compared to his class perhaps.

I feel fairly confident on most of those. Pika and Fox have KO problems, both have only a couple viable KO moves. Pits are just generally somewhat underwhelming IMO. Falcon is "fixed" compared to Brawl, but he's as one dimensional as always, so it's hard to know where he'll fall.

Bowser Jr is a "who knows" character. He's too new and weird to rank. Nothing between high and bottom would surprise me for him.



Fast, strong, good range, amazing survivability, armor, etc.

He's basically the first good heavyweight character the series has ever had. The only matchup where I think Bowser looks completely terrible is vs Toon Link. He's still a big target and Toon Link can just spam stuff for days vs him. Vs most other characters he can still get in decently well and his footsies are surprisingly great.


Besides his buffs, one thing that made Bowser way better was that most projectiles no longer autocancel, significantly reducing the degree to which other characters can wall him out. Falco, for example, is now complete prey for Bowser, while this matchup was godawful in Brawl.

Fox mcUpsmash has KO problems?
Pits have Armor too. Longer range stronger recovery. Upperdash K.Os , fsmash K.Os. Can chase off stage, way faster. Disjoints for days.
Falcon > Bowser.

Hell let everyone make a matchup thread vs Bowser. Shulk,marth, Lucina, pits, both links, Yoshi, luma, it'll go on.
That's not because he is trash its because a lot of characters will still face him evenly or positively. With the top cast walling him out and few matchups in his favor his fall from favor is inevitable. Top 25 top 20? Sure I'll bite.

 

[Jabejazz]

Yes, but characters like Falco were the reason Bowser was bottom tier in Brawl. The only "new Falco" is Toon Link.

And Rosaluma.
And Pikachu.
And Ness.
And Villager.
And DHD.
And Megaman.
And...

 

[Terotrous]

Bowser isn't fast. Compared to his class perhaps.

Fox mcUpsmash has KO problems?

It's not nearly Melee status. It's slower, more punishable, and it doesn't KO as early. It's still good, but it's no longer "oh hey you're dead for free whenever you have 80% damage".

Uair can also still kill, but again it's lost power. Fox is now basically the character he always should have been, he's super fast but he has to build up quite a lot of damage before he can kill you.

Pits have Armor too. Longer range stronger recovery. Upperdash K.Os , fsmash K.Os. Can chase off stage, way faster. Disjoints for days.

I agree that he looks good on paper, but somehow he seems kind of weak and stiff to me. I guess we'll see, I haven't seen a lot of Pit play in tournament so it's hard to decide. I think he's actually a fair bit more changed from Brawl than people are saying, though, even moves that look very similar appear to have slightly changed properties.

Hell let everyone make a matchup thread vs Bowser. Shulk,marth, Lucina, pits, both links, Yoshi, luma, it'll go on.
That's not because he is trash its because a lot of characters will still face him evenly or positively. With the top cast walling him out and few matchups in his favor his fall from favor is inevitable.

Bowser 6-4 over Yoshi IMO. Yoshi cannot wall him out, and Bowser hits harder and lives longer. Chasing Bowser to the air as Yoshi is dangerous thanks to down B, which removes a large part of his game.

I actually don't think anyone other than Toon Link or maybe Rosalina can feasibly wall Bowser out.

 

[Terotrous]

And Rosaluma.
And Pikachu.
And Ness.
And Villager.
And DHD.
And Megaman.
And...

Lol no to all of those other than DHD and maybe Rosaluma. Megaman can't keep Bowser out at all, he can walk right through lemons and Megaman's other projectiles are slow. Ness has really never been able to wall anyone out, PK Fire is more of a poke tool than a wall. With Wobuffet Tree, maybe Villager is a threat, otherwise he can likely armor through slingshots as well. Pikachu is more likely to try to run circles around him, but again some of his weak hits won't go through Bowser's armor, so I wouldn't expect quick attack shenanigans or anything.

Even for DHD, it's not clear yet just how good he is. It's fairly clear he's not quite as good as people thought at first. I think this is a typical gief vs zoner battle, where DHD has decent tools to keep him out, but if he gets in he's got big problems. DHD's camp game also isn't as good as Toon Link.

And Rosaluma doesn't really wall Bowser out any more than she walls everyone out.

 

[Jahordon]

I really don't think Greninja has as good of combo game as Diddy...

And does Hydro Pump even gimp any of the top characters?

 

[Jabejazz]

Bowser 6-4 over Yoshi IMO. .

Now THAT is a bold statement. Thinkaman needs to step his game up.

Lol no to all of those other than DHD and maybe Rosaluma.

Mostly exaggerating, but the fact remain he suffers from the same issues he had before, they're just less apparent.
Also, "maybe" Rosaluma?
Maybe?

You ain't getting in even if Rosalina let you.

 

[AvariceX]

Personally I think Diddy, Rosalina, and Greninja are all better than Sheik and ZSS. ZSS is really good and much-improved from Brawl, but she still has that awful grab and a lot of her attacks are easily crouched by smaller characters (which there are quite a few of this time). Sheik is great but I'm not entirely sold on her yet. I can't really point out any one big weakness she has, I just think the sum of her parts are not as poweful as my top 3. Greninja is most similar to her and Hydro Pump alone makes him decidedly better in my opinion. Rosalina might be the best character in the game, we're still only scratching the surface of what can be done with Luma and it's already very obvious that she's one of the best.

Lucario and Sonic probably are on the next level right below them, but I think Pikachu and maybe Fox are there with them as well.

Yoshi is in there somewhere too, maybe even higher, but I don't know enough about the character to really say.

Peach, Pac-Man, DHD, Puff, Falcon, Wario, ROB, Marth, Pit, Villager, and Ness all don't seem very far behind. In particular I think Pac-Man and Peach have potential to be near the top.

I'm not really convinced Mac and Bowser are all that great. Both have very exploitable weaknesses and that is almost always a death sentence for a fighting game character, but Mac at least has tools to force you to play his game.

 

[Terotrous]

Now THAT is a bold statement. Thinkaman needs to step his game up.

It's not really that bold. The good characters will have advantageous and disadvantageous matchups vs each other. Yoshi can tack on damage to Bowser pretty well, but has trouble getting kills without coming in close enough to expose himself to fairly serious risk.

Mostly exaggerating, but the fact remain he suffers from the same issues he had before, they're just less apparent.
Also, "maybe" Rosaluma?
Maybe?

You ain't getting in even if Roslina let you.

It's not like Rosalina is 10-0 over the entire cast. You can kill Luma, and Bowser at least has enough armor to challenge some of her moves. Certainly, she has to be wary of chasing him to the air in much the same way that Yoshi does.

I don't really think there's anything in particular about Rosalina that's bad for Bowser, she's just generally OP. Sort of like how Yoshi vs Sheik is probably 6-4 Sheik just because Sheik is too damn good.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's not nearly Melee status. It's slower, more punishable, and it doesn't KO as early. It's still good, but it's no longer "oh hey you're dead for free whenever you have 80% damage".

Yeah, you're right here. It's more like "oh hey you're dead for free at 90%-100% damage when the move is fresh."

Up-Smash isn't that weak. His other Smash attacks, just like in Melee and Brawl, have their utility. Down-Smash is good for edgeguarding/setting up edgeguarding/getting them off the stage at middling to high percents, and Forward-Smash is good for racking damage.

Uair can also still kill, but again it's lost power. Fox is now basically the character he always should have been, he's super fast but he has to build up quite a lot of damage before he can kill you.

When you can rack up damage as well and as freely as Fox can, is this really that much of an issue?

Bowser 6-4 over Yoshi IMO. Yoshi cannot wall him out, and Bowser hits harder and lives longer. Chasing Bowser to the air as Yoshi is dangerous thanks to down B, which removes a large part of his game.

I actually don't think anyone other than Toon Link or maybe Rosalina can feasibly wall Bowser out.

Yoshi doesn't need to wall Bowser out. All Yoshi needs to do is run circles around him and whiff punish whenever he wants. Yoshi's mobility is absolutely disgusting.

Same with a lot of characters, really. They don't need to wall Bowser out to be effective against him.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah, you're right here. It's more like "oh hey you're dead for free at 90%-100% damage when the move is fresh."

Definitely not 90% on anyone other than Jigglypuff, even then I'd be surprised if it killed her. It's generally more like 110-125% on most of the cast.

Of course, Rage is a factor. May be closer to 110% if at Max Rage, but Fox is kind of light so he rarely gets to 150%.

Also, the for free part was referring to how in Melee, it's also stupidly safe, having massive shield pushback and a huge back hitbox. These aspects of the move have been toned down, so you can't bet with it as brainlessly as you could before.

When you can rack up damage as well and as freely as Fox can, is this really that much of an issue?

No, like I said, that's how it should work. The problem is there's some characters who basically get to rack up huge damage and have good KO power too. In general, to reach top tier, you have to break the game to some degree. There may be some argument for him reaching high tier (which requires you to be a fairly complete character), if he puts in the tournament results.

Yoshi doesn't need to wall Bowser out. All Yoshi needs to do is run circles around him and whiff punish whenever he wants. Yoshi's mobility is absolutely disgusting. Same with a lot of characters, really.

You should probably check out the Yoshi vs Ganondorf video from a page back. It seems fairly clear that that player is the best Yoshi (certainly I've never seen anyone even close to that good with him, he runs circles around Awestin), and yet Ganondorf (who is clearly not as mobile or as safe as bowser) is still able to kick him in the face on many occasions. His game still does have some holes, and he is not totally safe on everything. He generally relies on his mobility to mix people up, but you can still get read.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Fox does have tourney results he is placing fairly high wherever he goes and often gets pulled out as a counter-pick or to even up a matchup that the players main can't contend with.

I'm still like who is Bowser though?
Yoshi handedly ate Ganons food. Wasn't even close in the second game and only comes off that way because of the choke suicide.