Character Competitive Impressions

[A2ZOMG]

Oh, also, re: Ganondorf. I like the character in high-level in-person matches, but can't stand him on WiFi (I would rather face Diddy on WiFi than Ganondorf; much easier).

WiFi Ganondorf is two or three tiers above where he would otherwise be. Input lag means that you can't react to stuff and spotdodge on reaction, teching Flame Chokes consistently is difficult (but doable), the slightest mistake costs you your stock... bleh. On the flipside, the lag does mean that Ganondorf has a rougher time dealing with projectiles, but it's a nice trade to make when your opponent is also missing followups half the time by 1 or 2 frames.

It's interesting that most of the other heavies don't have this issue on WiFi. Those MUs are not nearly as reaction-dependent as the Ganon MU. Ike in Brawl used to be, but no longer is. I suppose it's just the specific way in which you have to fight Ganon.

My opinion is that Dashgrab is OP on Wifi, and thus Diddy, Ness, and Luigi are OP on Wifi as a result of their insane reward from grab. Ganondorf and his Flame Choke benefit similarly. However Diddy and Ness also benefit from being small, while Luigi has his dumb fireball.

Given rolling is also sometimes considerably harder to punish on wifi, playing Ganon to easily punish rolls is relaxing at times.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

People think it hurts CF but thats because no CF player is doing the **** he is capable of. Same thing with Diddy.

Is it Diddys fault that his players weak minded and don't use all his tools?

Nah. Diddy is a beast. WE as players just suck gorilla nuts and need to start using all his options.

I think this could be said for most if not all characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No, because some characters truly ARE linear. Straight forward and are only effective with one gameplay style.

Charizard is pretty darn linear. No scary mix-ups or crazy set-ups. A poking based character and he isn't even the best at that out of the heavy weights. But what else are you supposed to do with him? THAT'S linear.

 

[Metalex]

People think it hurts CF but thats because no CF player is doing the **** he is capable of. Same thing with Diddy.

Is it Diddys fault that his players weak minded and don't use all his tools?

Nah. Diddy is a beast. WE as players just suck gorilla nuts and need to start using all his options.

Is there something in particular that you think about that Captain Falcon players are not doing?
Just curious cause i think that he's quite explored at this point and there are are some Falcon players that utilize the character really well.

EDIT: Nvm i think i got what you meant from the above post.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

No, because some characters truly ARE linear. Straight forward and are only effective with one gameplay style.

Charizard is pretty darn linear. No scary mix-ups or crazy set-ups. A poking based character and he isn't even the best at that out of the heavy weights. But what else are you supposed to do with him? THAT'S linear.

guessing this is only accounting without customs?

 

[Emblem Lord]

What customs make Charizards options scary without high risk to himself?

 

[Smog Frog]

dragon rush

 

[Emblem Lord]

Give me combos, set-ups, the stats of the move and why it's good.

Still one custom is not enough to fix such a flawed character.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Isn't rock hurl Frame 1 Super Armor, that can be used alternatively as a shield because of it.

Even still whatever, If I recall Rising N-air AC's, Flamethrower is mean, grabs have good base, and well charizard
s advantage is stronk.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why am I playing Charizard over DK and Bowser?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Why am I playing Charizard over DK and Bowser?

this i can get. Bowser and Dk with customs on the other hand do get one move that solves like all there problems.

 

[Locke 06]

Super armor, better recovery, extra jump, better grab and jab game, flamethrower, dragon rush/flare blitz to prevent resets, disjointed anti-air, a better recovery...

 

[Emblem Lord]

And yet none of these things make him stronger then DK or Bowser so either these advantages are negligible or they are overstated.

Honestly Bowser having a legit mix-up ****s on most of that stuff charizard has. Charizard not scary enough. Not enough different ways to stage an offense.

 

[NairWizard]

And yet none of these things make him stronger then DK or Bowser so either these advantages are negligible or they are overstated.

Honestly Bowser having a legit mix-up ****s on most of that stuff charizard has. Charizard not scary enough. Not enough different ways to stage an offense.

Charizard is better than DK or Bowser because his disadvantage is better. Bowser and DK don't land. Charizard has an extra jump, Rock Smash super armor (f5 invincible aerially iirc), Flare Blitz/Dragon Rush, and a smaller body because his wings and tail don't fully contribute to his body size (they are partly disjointed).

The biggest problem that these characters have is getting combo'd to death. DK does OK in this department on the ground due to his up-b, but Charizard does better overall, and so Charizard is better.

Charizard also has a KO throw with one of the best dash grabs in the game due to its range, which means he takes fewer risks when trying to KO.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

And yet none of these things make him stronger then DK or Bowser so either these advantages are negligible or they are overstated.

Honestly Bowser having a legit mix-up ****s on most of that stuff charizard has. Charizard not scary enough. Not enough different ways to stage an offense.

not to mention that dash slash is even safe on shield to an extent. can go straight into grab on landing.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Chairzard also has a better offstage game than those two do. Bowser basically never wants to go off stage, DK can go for a Bair and that's about it. Charizard can hang around off stage to really harass the opponent/use his extra jump to bait an airdodge and punish with Dair.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I would say he is better at disadvantage but it is easier to put him there and better at advantage because he has a harder time getting there.

He is versatile don't get me wrong, but how the hell does he HIT you?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Chairzard also has a better offstage game than those two do. Bowser basically never wants to go off stage, DK can go for a Bair and that's about it. Charizard can hang around off stage to really harass the opponent/use his extra jump to bait an airdodge and punish with Dair.

Hah bair? with customs we all know what move dk's gunna go for off stage

 

[Emblem Lord]

But anyways, my original point is that alot of chars we think are linear aren't actually. Linear means straight forward. What you is what you get. Not alot of variance in strategy. Very little mix-up potential or set-up potential. That is definitely not CF.

CF has spaced d-tilt, SH RAR bair, SH cross-up bair, SH single hit nair, SH two hit nair, empty SH grab(too good), Dash attack, dash grab, SH Uair, Cross up Uair (hella good)

So...yeah. What linearity are you talking about?

Now look at like.....G&W. pft.

BTW I was scapegoating Charizard before. I know he has stuff. That jab is sick. That d-tilt makes me cry though.

 

[Big-Cat]

You can really only escape linearity by conditioning your opponent to press buttons. And who presses buttons against armored gloves that you're not already beating handily to begin with? I'm finding ways the more I play, and I'm pretty sure this comes down to a player issue merely made tricky, never impossible, by characters, but my linearity issue makes me wonder if being jack of all/most trades is better than master of one, or even some.

The lack of creativity is definitely an issue in the community. You can escape linearity by more than making your opponent press buttons. For example, I jab with Bowser leaving me with a +7 advantage, there are a number of things I can do here.

1. Bowser Bomb
2. Fire Breath
3. Grab
4. Jump Over
5. Run Away

That's just a few of things I could do in that scenario.

Another issue with linearity is that players like to go for the biggest rewards. These are often balanced though where the game resets to neutral after. Instead of following up a throw with an attack, I could run up behind where they're going to land and then think of something.

We have to think outside of the box. It's things like this that make me think the likes of Palutena, Zelda, and especially Wii Fit Trainer are being slept on.

 

[Antonykun]

But anyways, my original point is that alot of chars we think are linear aren't actually. Linear means straight forward. What you is what you get. Not alot of variance in strategy. Very little mix-up potential or set-up potential. That is definitely not CF.

CF has spaced d-tilt, SH RAR bair, SH cross-up bair, SH single hit nair, SH two hit nair, empty SH grab(too good), Dash attack, dash grab, SH Uair, Cross up Uair (hella good)

So...yeah. What linearity are you talking about?

Now look at like.....G&W. pft.

BTW I was scapegoating Charizard before. I know he has stuff. That jab is sick. That d-tilt makes me cry though.

I could argue that this might be because of popularity. GW and Charizard aren't as popular CF but then we come across a chicken and the egg sooo idk.

 

[FlareHabanero]

The lack of creativity is definitely an issue in the community. You can escape linearity by more than making your opponent press buttons. For example, I jab with Bowser leaving me with a +7 advantage, there are a number of things I can do here.

1. Bowser Bomb
2. Fire Breath
3. Grab
4. Jump Over
5. Run Away

That's just a few of things I could do in that scenario.

Another issue with linearity is that players like to go for the biggest rewards. These are often balanced though where the game resets to neutral after. Instead of following up a throw with an attack, I could run up behind where they're going to land and then think of something.

We have to think outside of the box. It's things like this that make me think the likes of Palutena, Zelda, and especially Wii Fit Trainer are being slept on.

What bothers me in particular are the players that always go for the aerial attack after a throw, regardless of whether or not it will connect. It's pointless because you know you're going to miss, so what's the point with going for it at all? Why not wait it out and position yourself?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

But anyways, my original point is that alot of chars we think are linear aren't actually. Linear means straight forward. What you is what you get. Not alot of variance in strategy. Very little mix-up potential or set-up potential. That is definitely not CF.

CF has spaced d-tilt, SH RAR bair, SH cross-up bair, SH single hit nair, SH two hit nair, empty SH grab(too good), Dash attack, dash grab, SH Uair, Cross up Uair (hella good)

So...yeah. What linearity are you talking about?

Now look at like.....G&W. pft.

BTW I was scapegoating Charizard before. I know he has stuff. That jab is sick. That d-tilt makes me cry though.

I think defensively, G&W has the potential to have some very interesting mixups with his Dtilt's massive windbox. Incoming SH Aerial? Dtilt, duck under the attack in doing so + send them flying upwards, follow with various punishes.

I'd at least would like to see somebody try that. It could be potentially be very dangerous against non-disjointed aerials.

 

[Ffamran]

I feel like Link, Toon Link, Diddy Kong, Rosalina?, Shulk, Mega Man, Peach, the Villager?, and Sonic are one of the other characters who aren't linear. The Links can switch from walling out people with projectiles, spaced close combat, or trickster setups. They force players to not only manage their projectiles, but play styles as well. With pivoting, their Ftilts are dangerous because of their range and Link could bait out an action to Dash Attack out of a dash dance or perfect pivot. Messing around with the two makes me think that they can really pull of a ton of mind games and it makes sense since in the Zelda series, Link is a versatile hero. Fishing rod on Ganondorf anyone? Or using a bottle during Dead Man's Volley?

We've seen what Diddy Kong can do and it's mostly the fear of D-throw to Uair that allows Diddy to get away with it over and over, but Diddy can and will make use of his other tools like Dtilt comboing into itself, his other throws, the decision of using or not using Banana Peel, etc.

I haven't seen an offensive Rosalina yet, but I think it can be pulled off. It's the issue of she is a defense-based character, but that doesn't mean she can't be offensive-defensive. We've see how strong a defensive Rosalina can be with Dabuz, but I want to see an offensive one and see how well that play style does. If someone could switch on the fly of defensive to offense with Rosalina, it would be dangerous. Let's also mention that Rosalina is sort of a puppeteer character. Yes, some characters will wreck Luma if Luma's out, but that doesn't mean Rosalina can't use Luma to distance herself from her opponent or even bait them to go over Luma and Rosalina will punish by herself.

Shulk has the Monado Arts and with customs being allowed, you'll have to deal with default Shulk, Hyper Arts Shulk who can be a glass cannon or a stone wall, and Decisive Arts Shulk who'll prolong his arts for longer.

Mega Man has Zucco and NinjaLink who have different play styles. It's sort of like the Links of either being projectile-based or melee-based. The only thing is I haven't seen either of them play a lot, so I don't know if Zucco and NinjaLink can play both projectile and melee. There's also the whole using Air Shooter (Uair) to force an option like how GimR uses Mr. Game & Watch's Uair.

Peach is a technical character and being able to fight with an item means mind games. The only issue: no major results as far as I know and it's difficult to use a character like her. Sure, Shulk's technical too, but I don't think he's as a crazy as Peach. That said, it will be a while until we see Peach at a dangerous level. Quick float release expands her basic movement options of walk, dash, jump, and float to include short hopping, pivoting, perfect pivoting, dash dancing, foxtrotting, and quick float release.

I'm not sure about Villager, but in a way, I'd say the same with Mega Man and the Links, but I'm going to leave it at that and prevent myself from making myself look (more) like an ***.

Sonic's speed alone allows him to mess with people. He can takes things slow or fast. Add in the fact he's his own projectile and then his ability to just run up to you and beat you up and Sonic's a typical annoying speedster. The Flash, Spider-Man, and Sonic didn't win through brute strength like Superman or planned and backup-planned strategies like Batman, instead, they won through creativity and abusing their speed. We've seen 6wX pull things off on the fly.

That said, that doesn't mean say, a Mario or Zelda player can't get creative.

 

[FullMoon]

What bothers me in particular are the players that always go for the aerial attack after a throw, regardless of whether or not it will connect. It's pointless because you know you're going to miss, so what's the point with going for it at all? Why not wait it out and position yourself?

I'm guilty of doing that a lot with Greninja by trying to do the Up-Throw -> Up-Air combo a lot. Though a lot of the times I predict an air dodge I'm trying to frame trap them by faking them out so I can connect it after the invulnerability runs out. I'm still to get the timing right though, because input lag kinda messes up with it.

It's such a joy when you bait an air-dodge and see the opponent fall right into a combo or Smash attack though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Charizard is better than DK or Bowser because his disadvantage is better. Bowser and DK don't land. Charizard has an extra jump, Rock Smash super armor (f5 invincible aerially iirc), Flare Blitz/Dragon Rush, and a smaller body because his wings and tail don't fully contribute to his body size (they are partly disjointed).

The biggest problem that these characters have is getting combo'd to death. DK does OK in this department on the ground due to his up-b, but Charizard does better overall, and so Charizard is better.

Charizard also has a KO throw with one of the best dash grabs in the game due to its range, which means he takes fewer risks when trying to KO.

DK has an Up B with super armor, DK's grab is really long ranged and his B-throw kills. And DK has air mobility. But I don't know enough about Charizard to tell you for sure who's better.

 

[pepi1197]

I think defensively, G&W has the potential to have some very interesting mixups with his Dtilt's massive windbox. Incoming SH Aerial? Dtilt, duck under the attack in doing so + send them flying upwards, follow with various punishes.

I'd at least would like to see somebody try that. It could be potentially be very dangerous against non-disjointed aerials.

Its very useful for projectile deflection at the last second but the windbox isn't large enough, making it difficult to get them high enough for a uair follow up.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Its very useful for projectile deflection at the last second but the windbox isn't large enough, making if difficult to get them high enough for a uair follow up.

Why not go for something like Nair instead? Or Usmash? Or Side B? Doesn't need to be Uair.

 

[BBC7]

Why not go for something like Nair instead? Or Usmash? Or Side B? Doesn't need to be Uair.

I think the general point is that the D-Tilt windbox doesn't really have follow-ups. One funny use I found for it is to mess with Ike Side B. If they charge it and recover high, you can use the windbox of D-Tilt to blast them to the other side of the stage and make it impossible for recovery since they'd be in helpless state. In general, the windbox tech is best left for reflecting physical projectiles and gimmicks, as opposed to being something that can legitimately mess up an opponent. Game & Watch has other options, why go for a windbox that does 1%-2% and comes from a rather laggy move?

 

[pepi1197]

Why not go for something like Nair instead? Or Usmash? Or Side B? Doesn't need to be Uair.

Judge is inherently risky as a follow up, even after Dthrow. It doesn't need to be Uair, its just the most effective aerial move G&W has.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

DK has an Up B with super armor, DK's grab is really long ranged and his B-throw kills. And DK has air mobility. But I don't know enough about Charizard to tell you for sure who's better.

Charizard has even more grab range and has a dthrow that kills. Charizard also has jab cancel shenanigans into grabs, something I haven't seen on DK (but I can't promise it doesn't exist?). DK has some real advantages, but I think on balance Charizard is a more capable character (just a lot less popular).

 

[Ultinarok]

His top air speed isn't bad, but he has what you'll probably notice is the worst air inertia
in the game, once he starts going in a direction in the air it'll take him quite some time
to slow down or change direction. He basically cannot weave at all.

All the better to land bair with . Seriously, Shulk's aerials would be overpowered if his inertia wasn't so bad, and I think it actually helps him immensely by giving him hit-and-run capabilities. He's basically hitting and spacing at the same time. Bair would be a lot worse if Shulk didn't auto-space himself to set it up every time he made a big jump. Plus he has nair, so who needs to weave anyway? Lol.

@ Emblem Lord Dragon Rush is good on Zard, since no one acknowledged your question, because its basically Flare Blitz but much safer, it traps opponents like Twisting Fox and applies offstage pressure without the brutal drawback of whiffing Blitz (bouncing off and being stunned, and taking damage). Basically, imagine MK's Drill if it killed earlier, did more damage, and didn't leave him helpless. It has all the same advantages of FB, but sacrifices a little power and the armor in favor of being much harder to avoid and much, much safer, especially offstage. The fact that it was like the only custom to my knowledge to get nerfed by 1.0.4 is testament to its power.

 

[Saturn_]

Peach is a technical character and being able to fight with an item means mind games. The only issue: no major results as far as I know and it's difficult to use a character like her. Sure, Shulk's technical too, but I don't think he's as a crazy as Peach. That said, it will be a while until we see Peach at a dangerous level. Quick float release expands her basic movement options of walk, dash, jump, and float to include short hopping, pivoting, perfect pivoting, dash dancing, foxtrotting, and quick float release.

I saw Dark.Pch on Shofu's stream go try-hard, and he did a float (an inch off the ground, because of course) into a fair which was shielded, into a fair which was shielded, into a third fair that landed for the kill. It wasn't until I tried to recreate it in Training that I realized he must have used every single second of available floating to pull it off. Crazy technical.

 

[Yokoblue]

Is it me or the most important thing in this game is having good grabs and follow up after these grabs... ?
Great characters who's game plan depends on grab setup

(custom on: )
Grab Mixup:


Its like 3/4 of the high tier/top tiers

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Is it me or the most important thing in this game is having good grabs and follow up after these grabs... ?
Great characters who's game plan depends on grab setup

(custom on: )
Grab Mixup:


Its like 3/4 of the high tier/top tiers

kinda almost everybody in the game has good grab follow ups really though.

kirby and yoshi are exeptions i can think of off the top my head that don't fit into that said category though.

 

[Saturn_]

kinda almost everybody in the game has good grab follow ups really though.

kirby and yoshi are exeptions i can think of off the top my head that don'y fit into that said category though.

Agreed, every character in my signature has downthrow follow-ups. Some characters' throws were booty in Melee and 64.

Is it me or the most important thing in this game is having good grabs and follow up after these grabs... ?
Great characters who's game plan depends on grab setup

(custom on: )
Grab Mixup:


Its like 3/4 of the high tier/top tiers

Just wanted to expand on the point I just made, I think you see grabbing vastly more than in other gens because they tend to facilitate combos rather than just kills.

Random thought of the night: I feel like I NEVER hear about Fox and that there seem to be very few Fox mains. Shofu is literally the only one I can think of. Correct me, anyone?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Random thought of the night: I feel like I NEVER hear about Fox and that there seem to be very few Fox mains. Shofu is literally the only one I can think of. Correct me, anyone?

Once again be carefull with your double posting use the edit feature instead.

also toronto joe and NAKAT use fox as well.

 

[Saturn_]

Once again be carefull with your double posting use the edit feature intstead.

also toronto joe and NAKAT use fox as well.

I just remembered that Phenom mains Fox as well. Here's a video of him fighting a Little Mac. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC3xJOv1ofU Thanks.

If we could delete posts I would gladly fix the double post.

 

[Gunla]

I just remembered that Phenom mains Fox as well. Here's a video of him fighting a Little Mac. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC3xJOv1ofU Thanks.

If we could delete posts I would gladly fix the double post.

I got it for you.

On Shulk's air game, it mostly boils down to spacing for all of his aerials. Speed works well for nair in particular, but other arts don't really do too much to his air game, sans jump changing the timing.

 

[mimgrim]

Everyone forgets about Megafox QQ