Character Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

If I were forced to predict a "bottom 5," it'd be (probably from worst to best). I only feel strongly about the first 3; 4 or 5 are basically just (charge) shots in the dark.

I think we know too little about to reliably conclude (s)he is bottom tier, and (s)he seems like the kind of character who would more likely end up at the bottom due to ignorance rather than genuine suckitude. @ Shaya has persuaded me that isn't *that* bad (although I'd be shocked if he ends up in the top half of the cast). probably wins a few MUs vs. decent characters. sucks, but again I can't quite see him at bottom. I'm glad people are over calling "bottom tier," although he (like the others here) is bad. Finally, if you put or in bottom tier (as I've actually seen a few of you do), I really don't know what to say to you.

Palutena sucks man she's gotta be one of the worst designed characters in the game. You can run around jabbing and grabbing if you want. But she's a horrible character. She's worse than Zelda which is bad enough.

Bottom 5

Shulk
Ganon
Samus
Zelda
Palutena

 

[Smog Frog]

Palutena sucks man she's gotta be one of the worst designed characters in the game. You can run around jabbing and grabbing if you want. But she's a horrible character. She's worse than Zelda which is bad enough.

Bottom 5

Shulk
Ganon
Samus
Zelda
Palutena

yo can you explain why palutenas design is terrible? also lol @ shulk in bottom 5.

 

[slavoslav]

Bottom 5

Shulk

wut

 

[FullMoon]

Palutena sucks man she's gotta be one of the worst designed characters in the game. You can run around jabbing and grabbing if you want. But she's a horrible character. She's worse than Zelda which is bad enough.

Bottom 5

Shulk
Ganon
Samus
Zelda
Palutena

Well at least you aren't claiming Greninja is the worst anymore.

But seriously, wut. Shulk? Come on.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

yo can you explain why palutenas design is terrible? also lol @ shulk in bottom 5.

She's extremely poorly designed. Her fastest ground move is her 8 frame jab. The rest of her grou d game has the speed of a heavy character. So you're left running around looking for jabs. Yeah her dash attack and bair can beat a lot of moves but her far is that going to get you? So you're falling back on one of the slowest jabs in the game or committing ro something slow. Then her specials sucks. I've never seen a character with a useless set of 5 moves. Auto reticle sucks and then she has counter and a reflect that's redundant and unnecessary.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

She's extremely poorly designed. Her fastest ground move is her 8 frame jab. The rest of her grou d game has the speed of a heavy character. So you're left running around looking for jabs. Yeah her dash attack and bair can beat a lot of moves but her far is that going to get you? So you're falling back on one of the slowest jabs in the game or committing ro something slow. Then her specials sucks. I've never seen a character with a useless set of 5 moves. Auto reticle sucks and then she has counter and a reflect that's redundant and unnecessary.

Still no rationale on Shulk being "bottom 5"?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm glad people are over calling "bottom tier,"

Yeah that was a sort of weird phase, he's def still not very good (Low tier for sure, dunno where I'd place him but it's more than true at this rate). I don't know if I agree with Bowser being in bottom 5 though, or G&W, but otherwise I share your sentiments on the choices.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Still no rationale on Shulk being "bottom 5"?

Shulk is a bad character for the same reasons I feel like Palutena are however his moveset is worse.

With Shulk his fastest ground move is 5 frames his jab. His 2nd fatest is dtilt at 10. People claim him to be this highly technical character yet I think he's pretty straight forward. I feel as though Monado arts are overrated.

His aerials are slow really slow I think his fastest one is 14 frames. His aerial mobility is also poor which means he can't weave out of aerials. He can't really wall anyone out. Retreating fairs is probably his best spacing tools. Also I don't think he beats anyone you'd consider top 20. So I wuestion his MU's his ability to wall his defensive optikns and his mobility.

Well at least you aren't claiming Greninja is the worst anymore.

But seriously, wut. Shulk? Come on.

Well it's not like I think he's good. I don't think much of him and he's pretty bottom ten for me. With there with Samus D3 Robin Greninja and Link. He's not a good character and while I no longer see him as the worse it's just there's surprisingly worse characters for him.

 

[etecoon]

As someone who has played both incarnations of Dorf, I agree with you. Even if I leave aside the environmental changes, that benefited us, Dorf himself isn't worse than his brawl incarnation as he hits harder and faster and has better MU spreads. The only thing that is a nerf is no AC Dair.

Flame choke being techable is a nerf especially considering his horrible regular grab and that he's horrible in neutral and really needs the added threat to the odd time when he does get to you. Brawl Ganon getting his oki on you was actually a scary scenario, where "a few reads" as people say of this version of Ganon actually would end your stock, if your getup attack hit away first especially that was a terrible scenario to be in. Much less reason to fear hiding in your shield now when Ganondorf has to settle for softer hits and can't go for the reset even when he knows exactly what your next move is. Only tested it far enough to know that if you tech and grab you'll actually grab Ganondorf before his side B can come out, he gets a small frame advantage but I'm not even sure it's enough for lesser punishes like ftilt or regular dash grabbing rolls...

Still much better than Brawl Ganon I'd agree, but there are definitely things that Brawl Dorf had that are missed, and Ganondorf being a bad character in both games, abysmal in Brawl, there's no reason he should have had anything taken away. You can give him back his old side B and AC dair and Sheik is still going curb stomp him

 

[Antonykun]

wut

He doesn't see the Monado's power
(I couldn't resist)

 

[Yonder]

Shulk is a bad character for the same reasons I feel like Palutena are however his moveset is worse.

With Shulk his fastest ground move is 5 frames his jab. His 2nd fatest is dtilt at 10. People claim him to be this highly technical character yet I think he's pretty straight forward. I feel as though Monado arts are overrated.

His aerials are slow really slow I think his fastest one is 14 frames. His aerial mobility is also poor which means he can't weave out of aerials. He can't really wall anyone out. Retreating fairs is probably his best spacing tools. Also I don't think he beats anyone you'd consider top 20. So I wuestion his MU's his ability to wall his defensive optikns and his mobility.



Well it's not like I think he's good. I don't think much of him and he's pretty bottom ten for me. With there with Samus D3 Robin Greninja and Link. He's not a good character and while I no longer see him as the worse it's just there's surprisingly worse characters for him.

I don't see you mentioning anything about how amazing his range is. It's the best in game that's not a projectile. I think someone who masters monado arts is going to make Shulk a high tier. He has so many options for covering all situations. "recovery: Green art. Racking damage? Purple or blue. Going to kill? Red. Going to get killed? Yellow" He can do basically anythng he wants, the only big flaw I see is if you get intercepted while switching or accidentally pick the wrong art. Then it's a pain to get back to the one you want. Also it would be nice if he could use the same art twice.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If he could cast the same Monado twice he'd be super braindead and I would be upset. Smash Monado's boost/Buster boost should not just work like that, that's way too much room for error.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

She's extremely poorly designed. Her fastest ground move is her 8 frame jab. The rest of her grou d game has the speed of a heavy character. So you're left running around looking for jabs. Yeah her dash attack and bair can beat a lot of moves but her far is that going to get you? So you're falling back on one of the slowest jabs in the game or committing ro something slow. Then her specials sucks. I've never seen a character with a useless set of 5 moves. Auto reticle sucks and then she has counter and a reflect that's redundant and unnecessary.

AFAIK dash attack and bair don't simply "beat a lot of moves," they beat literally everything. There's some special property attached to them since she holds her shield out that makes them basically invincible if they clash with anything.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Flame choke being techable is a nerf especially considering his horrible regular grab and that he's horrible in neutral and really needs the added threat to the odd time when he does get to you. Brawl Ganon getting his oki on you was actually a scary scenario, where "a few reads" as people say of this version of Ganon actually would end your stock, if your getup attack hit away first especially that was a terrible scenario to be in. Much less reason to fear hiding in your shield now when Ganondorf has to settle for softer hits and can't go for the reset even when he knows exactly what your next move is. Only tested it far enough to know that if you tech and grab you'll actually grab Ganondorf before his side B can come out, he gets a small frame advantage but I'm not even sure it's enough for lesser punishes like ftilt or regular dash grabbing rolls...

Still much better than Brawl Ganon I'd agree, but there are definitely things that Brawl Dorf had that are missed, and Ganondorf being a bad character in both games, abysmal in Brawl, there's no reason he should have had anything taken away. You can give him back his old side B and AC dair and Sheik is still going curb stomp him

Weren't you able to tech side B in brawl?

I don't see you mentioning anything about how amazing his range is. It's the best in game that's not a projectile. I think someone who masters monado arts is going to make Shulk a high tier. He has so many options for covering all situations. "recovery: Green art. Racking damage? Purple or blue. Going to kill? Red. Going to get killed? Yellow" He can do basically anythng he wants, the only big flaw I see is if you get intercepted while switching or accidentally pick the wrong art. Then it's a pain to get back to the one you want. Also it would be nice if he could use the same art twice.

Unfortunately having the best range is meaningless if you move start up so slow. Think about what made mk and marth so good in brawl. They out ranged everyone whike having moves that were quick on start up. If shulk had this he'd be a lot bigger of a threat. However as it stands that's not the case. As long as you get in his range you can mess him up. So characters with superior mobility and quicker moves are going to eat him alive.

 

[Djent]

She's extremely poorly designed. Her fastest ground move is her 8 frame jab. The rest of her grou d game has the speed of a heavy character. So you're left running around looking for jabs. Yeah her dash attack and bair can beat a lot of moves but her far is that going to get you? So you're falling back on one of the slowest jabs in the game or committing ro something slow. Then her specials sucks. I've never seen a character with a useless set of 5 moves. Auto reticle sucks and then she has counter and a reflect that's redundant and unnecessary.

I think Jab is actually frame 7 (not that that's much better). The frame modifiers made the calculations a bit weird. Dash Attack is frame 6, so I guess that's also something.

Her aerial kit is very strong and doesn't share the lagginess of her ground game (slowest startup is DAir at 10f, fastest is NAir at 5). Warp is also pretty decent and gives her an escape option that most heavies would like to have.

And yes, her specials mostly suck otherwise (exception being Barrier which is strong in projectile MUs). I mean, I get that she's not good, and it's doubtful she's even mid-tier. But I just can't see her as worse than characters who have no blatantly strong aspects at all.

 

[Pyr]

Why is G&W's UAir such an amazing tool? I know the 2nd hit has very good knockback, but that's all I see + a gimmicky windbox that doesn't really do a whole lot. When I see G&W UAir talk, I don't really get it. And, in comparison, the lack of Mega Man UAir talk amuses me.
"

For me to consider his Uair an amazing tool, it still needs to do 1 thing it did from Brawl: The windbox it generates needs to count against your stale move count.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think Jab is actually frame 7 (not that that's much better). The frame modifiers made the calculations a bit weird. Dash Attack is frame 6, so I guess that's also something.

Her aerial kit is very strong and doesn't share the lagginess of her ground game (slowest startup is DAir at 10f, fastest is NAir at 5). Warp is also pretty decent and gives her an escape option that most heavies would like to have.

And yes, her specials mostly suck otherwise (exception being Barrier which is strong in projectile MUs). I mean, I get that she's not good, and it's doubtful she's even mid-tier. But I just can't see her as worse than characters who have no blatantly strong aspects at all.

Yeah she has good aerials that's it. I don't believe that she's has the ability to throw out aerials all day and be effective.

@ ParanoidDrone how does bair and da do vs moves with SA or moves that's invincible. I think it's a bit reckless to say it beats all moves in the game.

 

[Timbers]

Shulk is a bad character for the same reasons I feel like Palutena are however his moveset is worse.

His aerial mobility is also poor which means he can't weave out of aerials. He can't really wall anyone out. Retreating fairs is probably his best spacing tools.

Doesn't speed shulk get pretty crazy aerial mobility? (legitimate question)

I don't know if I believe that Shulk is a good character, but I've felt like his sh aerial game was (at least) the one good thing about him.

 

[etecoon]

Weren't you able to tech side B in brawl?

Snake and Ganondorf's okis were both guaranteed with only G&W's being techable, and IIRC he still got a stronger position out of that than Ganondorf does(could actually go for the regrab and usmash IIRC?)

This game for whatever reason they decided they really didn't want this to be much of a factor, I miss it

I want Mewtwo to get this kind of throw

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah she has good aerials that's it. I don't believe that she's has the ability to throw out aerials all day and be effective.

@ ParanoidDrone how does bair and da do vs moves with SA or moves that's invincible. I think it's a bit reckless to say it beats all moves in the game.

To the best of my knowledge they just do nothing to Palutena. I don't use her extensively so someone may or may not be able to elaborate/correct me on this.

 

[Mr. Johan]

iirc the only move Palutena's Dash Attack and Bair "lose" to is Robin's Thoron, and that's only because the active frames of those two moves stop before Thoron's multiple hitboxes do.

 

[Teshie U]

For me to consider his Uair an amazing tool, it still needs to do 1 thing it did from Brawl: The windbox it generates needs to count against your stale move count.

Do windboxes no longer do this?

Also Ganondorf could not have AC Dair with this amount of hitstun. His follow up game is very diverse and scary this time around. He was rebalanced, not really nerfed. Better to be safer, weaker and more reliable than to be a power house that can never hit anything.

Teching Gerudo is a bit of a needed drawback in a game where his free hits would lead into more free hits. Dtilt and Dash attack lead into powerful aerials so it could have been a bit much.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Uh I think you forgot about nairo.

I think in that case its more about the player then the character.

 

[Timbers]

Snake and Ganondorf's okis were both guaranteed with only G&W's being techable, and IIRC he still got a stronger position out of that than Ganondorf does(could actually go for the regrab and usmash IIRC?)

This game for whatever reason they decided they really didn't want this to be much of a factor, I miss it

Ganon gets free dtilts on most characters that miss the tech, which can kill at really stupid percents. Getting a sideB on the edge of the stage is pretty easy to end a stock with (pivot) ftilt, as they cant (tech)roll away from Ganon in this case.

Being unable to tech Ganon's sideB would definitely help him out, but may make his punishes a little too damn crazy.

 

[Pyr]

Do windboxes no longer do this?

I honestly don't know. My wording sucked in that one. My bad.

 

[Firefoxx]

Doesn't speed shulk get pretty crazy aerial mobility? (legitimate question)

I don't know if I believe that Shulk is a good character, but I've felt like his sh aerial game was (at least) the one good thing about him.

Yeah speed shulk gets good (horizontal) aerial mobility because the momentum of his dash carries into his jump

 

[Vincent21]

Palutena sucks man she's gotta be one of the worst designed characters in the game. You can run around jabbing and grabbing if you want. But she's a horrible character. She's worse than Zelda which is bad enough.

Bottom 5

Shulk
Ganon
Samus
Zelda
Palutena

You know there are other metrics of a characters worth outside of frame-counts, which is the only real relevant defining link between these choices when you include Shulk and Ganon.

A character with subpar frame counts is still good if the moves and the hitboxes and range to prevent entry, and/or the damage to create large enough rewards that the character only has to win a fraction of the exchange their opponent does in order to even the score.

Ganon is a perfect example. It's pretty irrelevant that his frames suck down the the jab when you consider the sheer range of fair and nair, the fact that he racks up absurd damage (we're talking kill percentages in under 5 hits) and the range of das boot ftilt/dtilt on the ground. Oh hey, you get in a juggle him for 40%, neat. He lands a DownB, dair, or fair as an offensive challenge during your onslaught. He has already repaid you half of the % you just dealt to him. And due to the sheer knockback of his moves, the situation will almost always be returning to neutral after he lands that hit.

What does that mean? The game ultimately plays out as Ganon doing his foot-to-face routine of spacing, landing 2-3 hits like like 13-20% a pop, getting combo'd for 40% or 50% or so, and resetting to neutral when he finally forces you out again (with an additional hit). % wise, that means despite getting dunked on in terms of move trades, he ends a surprising number of battles even or advantaged in %.

On top of that, even if that WEREN'T true and he were ending negative on battles, he's STILL DOING enough % to take advantage of the fact that he KILLS faster than whoever he's facing the majority of the time. He's heavy, and he hits hard. You need a higher %, he needs a lower percent.

Basically, if you'd like to think of it in terms of his succeeding being to "successfully keep people zoned/spaced in neutral" then his margin of error is OCEANS. It's huge.

He's actually a 100% completely solid character this time around and not even in the running for a bottom 5. That kind of decision basically speaks of a really narrow-minded focus on exchange rate based on frame-rate, and little else. And that's a really poor metric.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Flame choke being techable is a nerf especially considering his horrible regular grab and that he's horrible in neutral and really needs the added threat to the odd time when he does get to you. Brawl Ganon getting his oki on you was actually a scary scenario, where "a few reads" as people say of this version of Ganon actually would end your stock, if your getup attack hit away first especially that was a terrible scenario to be in. Much less reason to fear hiding in your shield now when Ganondorf has to settle for softer hits and can't go for the reset even when he knows exactly what your next move is. Only tested it far enough to know that if you tech and grab you'll actually grab Ganondorf before his side B can come out, he gets a small frame advantage but I'm not even sure it's enough for lesser punishes like ftilt or regular dash grabbing rolls...

Still much better than Brawl Ganon I'd agree, but there are definitely things that Brawl Dorf had that are missed, and Ganondorf being a bad character in both games, abysmal in Brawl, there's no reason he should have had anything taken away. You can give him back his old side B and AC dair and Sheik is still going curb stomp him

Flame Choke being techable is waaaay less big of a deal than you think it is when you realize that Flame Choke itself does 12% and he can STILL punish the techroll if he reads it, and that near the corner the mixups are basically just as deadly if not more than they were in Brawl. Old Flame Choke gave you almost no reward for techchase regrabbing given it only did 9% that game.

Snake technically had nothing guaranteed from his D-throw which also did 12%. Still was completely devastating to get read by it. Similarly the massive damage on Choke itself can't be ignored when it still puts you in an extremely favorable position where a read effectively multiplies your damage output.

Also, teching in place does not leave you in a frame advantage against grounded Flame Choke. All the same followups still work including tilts, Jab, and additionally grab if you tech in place.

Also Ganondorf is nowhere near bottom 5. N-air and F-air are very viable tools in neutral that can be spaced safely on block. N-air even starts combos, covers rolls/dodges, and is an amazing juggle/edgeguard tool. Ganon's grab game is also one of the better ones in this game. D-throw DA is 22 damage, and F-throw by itself is 13% which can often be more than what several characters do in a two hit combo. Also he's actually very scary in neutral when the threat of his DA FORCES people to shield, which can be read and punished by his strong grab game and Flame Choke, or pressured with N-air.

 

[Conda]

Been thinking about Falco a lot lately. Havent seen him be too effective yet but I feel he has a shot at being one of the best fundamentals-focused chracters in the game. Esp with Void Reflector as a custom - not because its super strong (its okay), but because it completes his set and gives him a midrange punish option that has worthwhile reward. Which is the main thing I feel he lacks.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

That's what I tell people. Sure, tech Flame Choke, but that's just playing oki with the Ganon player and he still has plenty of options to fiddle with in that state.

It's not a horrible nerf.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Zero Suit Senpai]

Considering range and speed, which character in the game has the best grabs? I know Jigglypuff has the fastest grab in the game apparently, but when considering range as well is there someone with a stronger grab game than her?

 

[Shaya]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VzC4VcPRY4#t=420

my g&w.
p.s. broke keyboard so no more shaya posts

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Frames and frame data matter. Yes hitboxes also matter. However having a quick moves is a lot better than having sliw ones. Every character has an ideal range where they wish to stay it. To me I dont think it matters much if you out range me if you're moves start up so slow. They become ineffective and unimpressive spacing tools.

@ A2ZOMG you're claiming ganon has good neutral. But I've also seen you say that Mario has a baf neutral. When Mario has a fireball better mobility and can space bair and nair. I'm not sure really what to make of what you're saying truthfully.

Doesn't speed shulk get pretty crazy aerial mobility? (legitimate question)

I don't know if I believe that Shulk is a good character, but I've felt like his sh aerial game was (at least) the one good thing about him.

Yeah his aerial mobility increases. Which is good but he doesn't get to weave his aerials. Also I think he has less shield pushback which makes him easier to punish. The Monado arts do really little in making him a competent character.

 

[warionumbah2]

"Rosalina's heavy"

Had to pause the video...

 

[oldkingcroz]

As far as ROB matchups go, he has some strong moves to combat and . He also (from what I have played) does pretty well against ,,, , .

Side-B->reflect Zero Suit's lasers-> bum rush her, works surprisingly well. I find that this is his best use of the move. It also works against Ness's PK Fire (and seriously hurts). ROB's neutral game against Zero Suit is pretty strong, when she can't use her lasers/ and is susceptible to his lasers/gyro harassment. And her juggling is nowhere near as bad as some of the other high tiers.

Where Zero suit shines against ROB is her ledge game. Her range, killing up B, and maneuverability makes back on stage a pain. And her Zair recovery is also VERY annoying, since ROB doesn't have many options to combat this. You can't stay low and go for a dair on the hanging zero suit, because she might go for an up B instead. Same goes for baiting an up B, she might zair (or down B) if you are prepping a meteor smash. His ledge guarding options against Zero Suit suck. Gyros by the edge help a tad, though, but her get up attack has a weird disjoint that may swat it away (depending on the location of the gyro).

Write up for Sonic/others coming in a minute.

 

[Vincent21]

That commentary was gross.

Frames and frame data matter. Yes hitboxes also matter. However having a quick moves is a lot better than having sliw ones. Every character has an ideal range where they wish to stay it. To me I dont think it matters much if you out range me if you're moves start up so slow. They become ineffective and unimpressive spacing tools.

Ganon's spacing tools are anything but, given the sheer damage they do.

Again, trade-offs. All slower starting moves mean is you win an average of less trade-offs. Damage counteracts this because if your opponent gets five correct reads/juggle hits and does 24% (i.e. Shiek) and then you get ONE dash attack into uair (14% and then 13/12% for a total of 26%) you're already ahead. For one string of two moves to their multiple strings of five moves.

Like while moves beat moves when both are within range, that means frame advantage is only helpful if you're connecting.Range counteracts a disadvantage in frames, because even a frame 1 move with no range is going to get stuffed by a frame 9 move while you're repositioning. You need to get closer, and motion creates a time buffer. If Ganon and his opponent, are, say, at "GO!" starting distance, even if their dash attack comes out on a significantly higher frame, if he reads them and does a standing ftilt, he will stuff them. They'll be hit in the process of closing the distance.

It's why range matters so much. If you're not close enough to hit me, the time you take in repositioning is time given to my move to reach it's active frame. And then you get hit!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Frames and frame data matter. Yes hitboxes also matter. However having a quick moves is a lot better than having sliw ones. Every character has an ideal range where they wish to stay it. To me I dont think it matters much if you out range me if you're moves start up so slow. They become ineffective and unimpressive spacing tools.

@ A2ZOMG you're claiming ganon has good neutral. But I've also seen you say that Mario has a baf neutral. When Mario has a fireball better mobility and can space bair and nair. I'm not sure really what to make of what you're saying truthfully.

Ganon's neutral isn't amazing. It's just definitely not close to being the worst in the game. The thing about Ganondorf is almost everyone HAS to respect his moves. If you don't play carefully against Ganon, he crushes you. And he has a lot of moves that are both difficult to contest directly, and cover a lot of options. Look at his DA for instance. Literally one of the best attacks in the game. Frame 10, 14%, sets up juggles, can crossover, and potentially a KO move. You HAVE to block against that when Ganon runs at you. That alone makes Ganondorf a THREAT in neutral.

Mario's Fireball to be frank is still pretty crappy. He has to commit super hard to really accomplish anything with it, and the majority of the time he doesn't have an easy response to people powershielding the fireball in neutral, especially against characters that excel in midrange. Spacing N-air is pretty laughable. That's easy to punish or outspace in neutral. B-airs are okay if you ignore how it hits a lot higher in this game and whiffs against standing characters a lot more than before, but keep in mind that Mario does not have it available if he's facing forward, which he won't be when he's using fireballs or if he recently took a hit from something else. As Ganondorf, I know that all I need to do against Mario to beat him is D-tilt and N-air. D-tilt can only be beaten on the ground if Mario does a COMPLETELY PERFECT out of shield punish read, and N-air will beat EVERYTHING Mario does in the air, including Fireball zoning. Once Mario starts trying to trick his way in with dodges, he's open to Flame Choke and U-smash, which are devastatingly powerful punishes.

Mario is probably the most overrated character by the Smash community to be frank. I don't understand how people believe his matchups on default settings are good. He struggles in midrange, and doesn't have easy ways of regaining lost momentum. And his reward is only situationally good either at very specific percent ranges or in specific matchups. His U-smash is a good KO move, but he has a hell of a time landing it when you just simply ledge reset against him constantly given he basically isn't a threat when it comes to ledge pressure or low edgeguards.

As I've stated before, his best matchups against good characters are vs Fox and Falcon, which are even. He is disadvantaged to all the other currently strong characters.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

"Rosalina's heavy"

Had to pause the video...

One thing I've come to realize is that no one really knows what they're talking about when they comment on Rosalina.

Ganon's neutral isn't amazing. It's just definitely not close to being the worst in the game. The thing about Ganondorf is almost everyone HAS to respect his moves. If you don't play carefully against Ganon, he crushes you. And he has a lot of moves that are both difficult to contest directly, and cover a lot of options. Look at his DA for instance. Literally one of the best attacks in the game. Frame 10, 14%, sets up juggles, can crossover, and potentially a KO move. You HAVE to block against that when Ganon runs at you. That alone makes Ganondorf a THREAT in neutral.

Mario's Fireball to be frank is still pretty crappy. He has to commit super hard to really accomplish anything with it, and the majority of the time he doesn't have an easy response to people powershielding the fireball in neutral, especially against characters that excel in midrange. Spacing N-air is pretty laughable. That's easy to punish or outspace in neutral. B-airs are okay if you ignore how it hits a lot higher in this game and whiffs against standing characters a lot more than before, but keep in mind that Mario does not have it available if he's facing forward, which he won't be when he's using fireballs or if he recently took a hit from something else. As Ganondorf, I know that all I need to do against Mario to beat him is D-tilt and N-air. D-tilt can only be beaten on the ground if Mario does a COMPLETELY PERFECT out of shield punish read, and N-air will beat EVERYTHING Mario does in the air, including Fireball zoning. Once Mario starts trying to trick his way in with dodges, he's open to Flame Choke and U-smash, which are devastatingly powerful punishes.

Mario is probably the most overrated character by the Smash community to be frank. I don't understand how people believe his matchups on default settings are good. He struggles in midrange, and doesn't have easy ways of regaining lost momentum. And his reward is only situationally good either at very specific percent ranges or in specific matchups. His U-smash is a good KO move, but he has a hell of a time landing it when you just simply ledge reset against him constantly given he basically isn't a threat when it comes to ledge pressure or low edgeguards.

As I've stated before, his best matchups against good characters are vs Fox and Falcon, which are even. He is disadvantaged to all the other currently strong characters.

That sounds very good and all however ganon is one of the slowest characters on the ground. There's really no big dash attack mix up because of how slow he is. You don't really need to respect his moves. It's not like he's throwing out hire priority disjoints.

Mario may very well lose to ganon I'm not really sure. What im saying is I like Mario's options in neutral over ganon. When you say bair whiffs on some standing characters is that rising or falling bairs? Also if you can't challenge any of Ganon's aerials as mario with his own. I'd just dash up usmash or retreat pivot grab or pivot ftilt. Is being power shielded something that's unique to Mario? You don't have to face your opponent to throw fireballs you can always b reverse them. How do you feel about Mario's dair? I think that move needs to be a staple in Mario's game. Am I wrong about this?

 

[Teshie U]

Yeah speed shulk gets good (horizontal) aerial mobility because the momentum of his dash carries into his jump

Aerial mobility and air speed are different. Characters like Shulk, Sonic, Falcon etc. all can move quickly in one direction in the air, but slowing down and changing directions for them is slow or not possible. Aerial mobility is what characters like Puff, Megaman excel at. Being able to move in at max speed and float away or behind for feints and spacing.

 

[David Viran]

As far as ROB matchups go, he has some strong moves to combat and . He also (from what I have played) does pretty well against ,,, , .

Side-B->reflect Zero Suit's lasers-> bum rush her, works surprisingly well. I find that this is his best use of the move. It also works against Ness's PK Fire (and seriously hurts). ROB's neutral game against Zero Suit is pretty strong, when she can't use her lasers/ and is susceptible to his lasers/gyro harassment. And her juggling is nowhere near as bad as some of the other high tiers.

Where Zero suit shines against ROB is her ledge game. Her range, killing up B, and maneuverability makes back on stage a pain. And her Zair recovery is also VERY annoying, since ROB doesn't have many options to combat this. You can't stay low and go for a dair on the hanging zero suit, because she might go for an up B instead. Same goes for baiting an up B, she might zair (or down B) if you are prepping a meteor smash. His ledge guarding options against Zero Suit suck. Gyros by the edge help a tad, though, but her get up attack has a weird disjoint that may swat it away (depending on the location of the gyro).

Write up for Sonic/others coming in a minute.

Wait what I would definitely say that zss is way better at juggling than at edge guarding. Her mobility and the the fact that her uair can frame trap air dodges very well and well her frame traps in general are very good. Most of what she has when edge guarding is dsmash when you are at the ledge or Bair you off stage. She has one of the best juggle games imo.