Character Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

Charizard and DK seem to be the most versatile. They're probably the ones most capable of working around projectiles and dealing with more mobile opponents. After that is Bowser, and below that are Ganon/DDD, who struggle mightily against campers.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

an interesting thing i heard from dk will in a vid was that when he plays heavys. when it comes to ranged camping after like 100% he stops caring about getting hit by them anymore and just focuses on landing his kill move. since he personally belives that moves like lazers and needles wont end his stock a commitment will. witch is why he tend 2 prepare for those attacks over other things.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

T,T samus......

I really want to like Samus. But she struggles so much, and then Mii Gunner takes her better tools and adds in better other options (like a reflector or a bomb that actually needs to be feared) on top of them.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why does his air game necessary to deal with those 2? Especially Pikachu, who really wants you to attack air-ground so he can use his low hurtbox to his advantage?

An extra jump, rock smash, and flame thrower help Charizard a lot from getting juggled and stuff. Which is a common heavy problem.

Let's keep in mind that Charizard like the other heavies is also really tall, which means by virtue of that, you have to deal with more air game shenanigans. Which against Pikachu is a problem given his mobility options with Quick Attack. Because Charizard's aerials don't have as practical spacing applications as others aside from N-air, it gives Pikachu a lot of free reign as to how he wants to approach. Having good aerials against Pikachu at least discourages him from approaching certain ways.

Also his poor air game is an issue for actually punishing Sonic's stuff. Like, when Sonic Spin Dashes, what are you going to do to punish it?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I really want to like Samus. But she struggles so much, and then Mii Gunner takes her better tools and adds in better other options (like a reflector or a bomb that actually needs to be feared) on top of them.

may i hear what you consider struggles? iv been working with her a for about 3 months hardcore and perhaps i can adress any misconceptions?

An interesting thing 2 note as well is that when i jumped into this character she felt like the worst thing alive for 2 weeks but as i continued on with her iv only noticed more and more options she has for many situations and what may have seemed like a counter intuitive tool kit really started 2 mesh together. So much 2 a point i dropped dk and falco for her.

 

[Makorel]

- Trouble with the upperdash arm is the knockback has an RNG factor (it can either kill early, or kill at a higher percentage)

This point stuck out at me because I'm pretty sure there is no RNG it's just a combination of whether or not upperdash is in the air (as it has decreased knockback when not on the ground) and the fact that everyone receives increased knockback when they're hit in the middle of charging a smash attack.

- Horrible grab, when your trying to punish someone

I'm not sure what you mean by this. All of Pit's grabs are tied for first with various characters in terms of speed (frame 6, 8 and 9 for normal dash and pivot grab) and he's got a fast pummel. Unless you're talking about getting kills in which case I can see what you're talking about because fthrow is only really okay at getting kills and not good at it like Sonic's backthrow.

 

[⑨ball]

With what Jumbo- Hoop? Puh lease.

You mean that special that does incredible shield damage, travels full stage for roll chases or just safe landings, combos for as much as 38% and can carry characters offstage into the blastzone? True story, no way something like this could be good.

Why Ball variants? Absolutely not.

Shorthop auto canceling projectiles that never stale and double as spikes and combo in from her other aerials. One of which operates like a Gordo creating multiple hitboxes to deal with on the approach or reatreat, another that hits at the same angle as Pac Man's apple, has enough hitstun to combo into her killmoves, and sits on the ground preventing ground approaches. Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking these moves are terrible. ):

Absolute side-grades on her Deep breathing? Not really.

You've convinced me with your indepth analysis here alright. I mean what good are moves that buff your damage and knockback enough that you kill off the top as early as 65%? Also lowering damage and knockback and healing as a bonus everytime? Dumb. Not to mention having the option to turn into a moving explosive that reaches farther than Robin's thunder. I don't even know what I was thinking, imagining using a move that increases your weight so much that you can punish a character for throwing you could be useful.

The two very interesting changes to Sun salutation? Sure.

Geez, sorry about that. I was just thinking that having one projectile that nullifies things like Luma shot, fireballs, gordos, frisbees, thunderjolts, ect. and keeps going to create pressure, while also being able to carry opponents offstage would be a pretty powerful option. Thinking about it now it does sound pretty weak.

Also that giantic one that can stop approaches, controls space and becomes a kill move that travels fast and hits hard safely? Completely worthless. I mean who's ever heard of a charge cancelable projectile that heals being good?[/quote]

Diddys still going to be stronger, as is Sheik. Ike's going to massacre.

Nothing in these sentences happen to conflict with what I said, but it's worth noting that none of these MU's are particularly bad for her. With her weakest area being her approach which, honestly with movement options like sliding backward in neutral to bait mistakes--isn't that weak imo.

She's got interesting reward on hits that she can barely land in the weirdest of ways.

Interesting is a neat word to for good damage and kill combos. Barely landing anything is a player problem bud. If Mario and Luigi have less range on their normals and aerials, why shouldn't a decent player be able to hit with hers?

I thought Luigi and Kirby had meh approaches, then I realized they still hit things when they get in. You get in with WFT and half your kit is still disabled because the hitbox doesn't align with X character's hurtbox so you have rather limited options, or they aren't particularly safe in the presence of X characters range.

It's not really a character's fault that a player doesn't know their spacing or hitboxes. The only characters she has difficulty hitting are tiny character. This is something she can utilize herself lowering herself low enough to duck under things like Sheik's grab, any SH aerial approaches and so on.

It sucks and we know that. Weaknesses aren't an uncommon thing in fighting games but it's also not uncommon for players to be able to work around them. Her specials certainly help in this regard.

WFT will make top 10 when half the roster gets deleted. Just because she can throw balls of different sizes and speeds isn't going to make he great. Jumbo hoop is overrated to boot.

I'll agree with you on the jumbo hoops but if you sleep on a move like this, you'll be the first one complaining about it later.
Good specials do not make good characters, good normals and being able to use them efficiently do. If anything good specials compliment characters normals rounding them out to be better characters.

Can you imagine what Sheik would be like without Bouncing Fish or Vanish? Maybe with her chain and a tether grab like Brawl olimar's instead? Certainly not a bad character in this regard, but she'd have something missing. Something that'd connect what works already together.

How about Sonic without the spin dash/charge spin or the spring? Replace them with something questionable like his double spring or the meteor homing attack. His ground game is still good, as is his mixup game, but there'd be a lack of something powerful there to tie it all together.

WFT has a good kit. Most people don't say it's bad. They say things like it's wonky, or weird, awkward, ect. This is because there is something missing that connects everything that already works. Her customs happen to be that.

Mii Sword fighter with Power thrust or reflector likely eats her alive.

Reflectors in general are not the best idea against moves that can cancel and thus bait. Powerthrust doesn't seem like a good approach or option in general so I'm not sure who if anyone would have an issue against this move.

What she going to do? Contest his U-air? Beat out his N-air? She's going to fry. A lot of characters get great tools with customs, she is no exception that doesn't rocket her to top 10.

There aren't many characters that do well against pressure from below which is why you'll often see players reset to neutral rather than attempting to "contest" uairs or whatever. In these situations it certainly helps to have momentum altering specials and decent air speed like WFT has. Btw nair is really good, but yes invincible Usmash does in fact "beat out his Nair". Oop.

The idea of "rocketing" to the top 10 assumes she's low enough in the first place that'd it'd be some huge leap and this might be the case for you and anyone else that doesn't know better, but I haven't agreed completely with ANY tier list that's been posted even though I understand how the misconception could arise when there is very little information on her with only 1 solid rep.

Not even that is uncommon however. Everyone called Megaman bad, suddenly--Zucco, NinjaLink, Styles. Suddenly, "Oh yah jump n shoot man is gud!" Pac Man completely underrated by everyone except Pac Main's. Abandango shows up? Now everyone goes to the church of Pac Man. Ike is STILL at the bottom of most people's tier lists despite Ryo and Ryuga doing phenomenoally well with him. Miis were all trash tier until we started really figuring out what they could do, especially with customs. Olimar got over looked too. All it took was Rich Brown and Dabuz before everyone decided he was so good.

Now I say that the character I use is actually decent in lieu of a plethora of myths and misinformation that was spread and proven wrong by the frame data Thinkaman collected and gets even better with her customs covering her weaknesses and I get this post from you that's not even inquiring why or inviting discussion. Just a bunch of rabble that makes it sound like you're offended for some reason.

Diddy, Rosa, Sheik, Yoshi, Brawler, Gunner, bloody Sword Fighter, Ike, Mario, probably Bowser still. Pit. Bunch of characters going to beat her dread. Metaknights going to beat her dread.

Most good characters already have great specials and I don't think this is a coincedince. Metaknight being the only character in that list that I know for sure has some issues but has a better default set imo.

Your entitled to your opinion. If you gave any hint that you had some understanding of the character I might've been inclined to even go as far as entertaining your theory fighter--but you didn't, and I don't have any interest in conversation that amounts to "no u" so I guess we'll see.

DK is food to all the characters than can combo, doubt it,
MK is going to become better with time.

DKWill still performs well despite this.

 

[Locke 06]

DK > DDD is my opinion at the moment. If I was making a full list of what I think
Bowser/Zard > DK > Ganon > DDD.

I don't feel Ganon has particularly strong tools against tops. He has a strong edge-guard. Except Bowser and Zard can Really pressure a ledge snap and force a confrontation out of that. Zard's advantage state is *very* nice. Charizards the fastest of them on the ground, good jab. Charizard has armor on everything but flamethrower, his grab trumps Ganons by a new york mile. semi-Disjointed Wings. D-throw kills at considerable %'s. He's not the best at getting out of neutral, but frankly Im a big fan of him in advantage.

Agreed on a lot of these points except that Charizard off stage is very good. Extra jump, FAir will kill, and flamethrower is easy extra damage that can really mess with people who can't ledge snap well

You also shouldn't have edited your post. Charizard in advantage is incredibly scary, especially with dragon rush which just extends his advantage if you try to reset.

Off stage, DK is better than Dorf no? His BAir demands respect and if you air dodge he has dair or FAir waiting. Better air speed helps a lot. The only issue I can see is his vertical recovery, which is saved by customs. While I lose the hitbox on up-B, rising Kong makes his edge guarding game complete.

Wind punch also gives him a mock charge shot to play with as that kills ~100% just by the windbox at the edge of the stage. This forces a response that can lead to a spike or more BAirs. Yolo suicide wind punch is a fantastic finisher.

Re A2: Charizard's anti air is ridiculous. Best shield grab, super armor rock smash, f6 OOS disjointed usmash.

He doesn't go to the air to punish, he traps your landing with his speed and anti-air. Or at least, that's how I think he should be played.

 

[Antonykun]

Back to my claim that Villager is a trap master. Villagers more bizzare MUs now makes way more sense.
Why does Villager do so well against dedicated anti zone? Because villager wants to get in!
Why can't Villager keep out DK? because he is not bad against projectiles and Villager's are pretty easy to beat.
So on and so on.

You mean that special that does incredible shield damage, travels full stage for roll chases or just safe landings, combos for as much as 38% and can carry characters offstage into the blastzone? True story, no way something like this could be good.


Shorthop auto canceling projectiles that never stale and double as spikes and combo in from her other aerials. One of which operates like a Gordo creating multiple hitboxes to deal with on the approach or reatreat, another that hits at the same angle as Pac Man's apple, has enough hitstun to combo into her killmoves,and sits on the ground preventing ground approaches. Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking these moves are terrible. ):

You've convinced me with your indepth analysis here alright. I mean what good are moves that buff your damage and knockback enough that you kill off the top as early as 65%? Also lowering damage and knockback and healing as a bonus everytime? Dumb. Not to mention having the option to turn into a moving explosive that reaches farther than Robin's thunder. I don't even know what I was thinking, imagining using a move that increases your weight so much that you can punish character for throwing you could be useful.

Geez, sorry about that. I was just thinking that having one projectile that nullifies things like Luma shot, fireballs, gordos, frisbees, thunderjolts, ect. and keeps going to create pressure, while also being able to carry opponents offstage would be a pretty powerful option. Thinking about it now it does sound pretty weak.

Also that giantic one that can stop approaches, controls space and becomes a kill move that travels fast and hits hard safely? Completely worthless. I mean who's ever heard of a charge cancelable projectile that heals being good?

Nothing in these sentences happen to conflict with what I said, but it's worth noting that none of these MU's are particularly bad for her. With her weakest area being her approach which, honestly with movement options like sliding backward in neutral to bait mistakes--isn't that weak imo.


Interesting is a neat word to for good damage and kill combos. Barely landing anything is a player problem bud. If Mario and Luigi have less range on their normals and aerials, why shouldn't a decent player be able to hit with hers?


It's not really a character's fault that a player doesn't know their spacing or hitboxes. The only characters she has difficulty hitting are tiny character. This is something she can utilize herself lowering herself low enough to duck under things like Sheik's grab, any SH aerial approaches and so on.

It sucks and we know that. Weaknesses aren't an uncommon thing in fighting games but it's also not uncommon for players to be able to work around them. Her specials certainly help in this regard.


I'll agree with you on the jumbo hoops but if you sleep on a move like this, you'll be the first one complaining about it later.
Good specials do not make good characters, good normals and being able to use them efficiently do. If anything good specials compliment characters normals rounding them out to be better characters.

Can you imagine what Sheik would be like without Bouncing Fish or Vanish? Maybe with her chain and a tether grab like Brawl olimar's instead? Certainly not a bad character in this regard, but she'd have something missing. Something that'd connect what works already together.

How about Sonic without the spin dash/charge spin or the spring? Replace them with something questionable like his double spring or the meteor homing attack. His ground game is still good, as is his mixup game, but there'd be a lack of something powerful there to tie it all together.

WFT has a good kit. Most people don't say it's bad. They say things like it's wonky, or weird, awkward, ect. This is because there is something missing that connects everything that already works. Her customs happen to be that.


Reflectors in general are not the best idea against moves that can cancel and thus bait. Powerthrust doesn't seem like a good approach or option in general so I'm not sure who if anyone would have an issue against this move.

There aren't many characters that do well against pressure from below which is why you'll often see players reset to neutral rather than attempting to "contest" uairs or whatever. In these situations it certainly helps to have momentum altering specials and decent air speed like WFT has. Btw nair is really good, but yes invincible Usmash does in fact "beat out his Nair". Oop.

The idea of "rocketing" to the top 10 assumes she's low enough in the first place that'd it'd be some huge leap and this might be the case for you and anyone else that doesn't know better, but I haven't agreed completely with ANY tier list that's been posted even though I understand how the misconception could arise when there is very little information on her with only 1 solid rep.

Not even that is uncommon however. Everyone called Megaman bad, suddenly--Zucco, NinjaLink, Styles. Suddenly, "Oh yah jump n shoot man is gud!" Pac Man completely underrated by everyone except Pac Main's. Abandango shows up? Now everyone goes to the church of Pac Man. Ike is STILL at the bottom of most people's tier lists despite Ryo and Ryuga doing phenomenoally well with him. Miis were all trash tier until we started really figuring out what they could do, especially with customs. Olimar got over looked too. All it took was Rich Brown and Dabuz before everyone decided he was so good.

Now I say that the character I use is actually decent in lieu of a plethora of myths and misinformation that was spread and proven wrong by the frame data Thinkaman collected and gets even better with her customs covering her weaknesses and I get this post from you that's not even inquiring why or inviting discussion. Just a bunch of rabble that makes it sound like you're offended for some reason.


Most good characters already have great specials and I don't think this is a coincedince. Metaknight being the only character in that list that I know for sure has some issues but has a better default set imo.

Your entitled to your opinion. If you gave any hint that you had some understanding of the character I might've been inclined to even go as far as entertaining your theory fighter--but you didn't, and I don't have any interest in conversation that amounts to "no u" so I guess we'll see.



DKWill still performs well despite this.

TY for showing me my new avatar for a little while
EDIT: I can't actually use this image maybe @ Nu~ will like it

Spoiler

 

[Project Quarantine]

He thinks that, or he thought that?

He said it right before apex, I'm assuming apex didn't change him.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

may i hear what you consider struggles? iv been working with her a for about 3 months hardcore and perhaps i can adress any misconceptions?

An interesting thing 2 note as well is that when i jumped into this character she felt like the worst thing alive for 2 weeks but as i continued on with her iv only noticed more and more options she has for many situations and what may have seemed like a counter intuitive tool kit really started 2 mesh together. So much 2 a point i dropped dk and falco for her.

Lack of early kill moves outside of Charge Shot. (Not gimping, flat out killing at say 100%). A bit more recovery on her moves than I would like, particularly the missiles. Her CQC is... pretty bad. I know she has some tricks for CQC with a few of her moves, but I don't think tricks are going to do it for her. Mid range game ends up being kinda lack luster when they're just outside of Z-Air: missiles too slow, charge shot ain't a good option, but Samus doesn't want to run in either to close the gap.

She has a decent harassment long range game, amazingly quick Fsmash, a decent gimp game, a decent set of options with her aerials, a few tricks with bombs and Zair, the constant threat of a Charged Shot.... but I don't think they flow together well enough or have support from her other moves to work well.

I mean, look at Mii Gunner. If you get past his long range game of grenades and missiles, he still has his dead mid-range game with Fair/Bair/Fsmash(hard read only)/Ftilt/Possibly Down B Bomb. And then if you get past that he still has his good Nair and Jab. His Usmash is pretty great as well. You think Samus has good platform pressure with her Uair? Gunner's Uair is a more constant pressure that also eats spotdodges.

Tricks? He has insane grenade wavebouncing options, particularly when combined with Fair. If he wants to be on the other side of the stage, he's already there. Opponent decides to try to outcamp him with a faster projectile game? He has a reflector option. His gimping options are nearly identical to Samus' as well.

I generally don't like to make direct comparisons between two characters like this outside of clones but (rule of thumb is I'll miss something important)... I don't see a reason to play Samus over Mii Gunner. Almost everything outside of Zair, screw attack, and bomb stuff you can do with Gunner, but with better other options as well.

 

[Big O]

Overall I'd say the best of the heavy hitters archetype are DK and Ike (they also have the best tourney results). Charizard is a close third and the rest are pretty close to each other overall.

DK has the best overall mobility and the best combination of range/attack speed of all of them. He has some safe moves and a few KO setups, but most of my kills come from off stage/ledge play where DK really shines. His shield pressure with Down B, Side B, and fully charged punch is no joke either. Up B can also shield poke very easily on damaged shields and cross up ambiguously for some safety.

Ike is pretty solid in general and has some really good tools. He doesn't hit quite as hard as he used to, but the buffs he got make his footsies a lot more effective. The fact that he can combo now too is just eye-opening to me.

Charizard is just surprisingly effective. Flamethrower, Rock Smash, and a great shield grab are good tools to keep him from being overrun by the speedsters. He has great range and disjoints to aid his footsies and anti-air game. He hits like a truck and is very scary off stage. From what little I've played with him, his on demand SA makes him really good in the chaos of team battles.

 

[etecoon]

@ E etecoon
Keep in mind your auditory reflexes are about ~30ms (on average) faster than your visual ones. Human benchmark only records your visual reflexes. It also doesn't take into account how long it takes your mouse to press down all the way (I don't know exactly how well this compares to a gc controller), or the months of training you can spend towards responding to specific stimuli. (I doubt most people who visit that website train at responding to green light.)

True, but audio cues are also less reliable in a tournament setting with a bunch of people around you yelling and noise from other TVs nearby

I don't think "click when the whole screen turns green" is novel enough to get great specific stimuli training from, just my theory but I'd think that would be closer to your potential reflexes than untrained responses particularly when you have to pick different responses to different stimuli. I believe that kind of reaction is generally almost twice as slow as twitch reaction, not sure to what extent it approaches twitch reaction if trained though

2. Reaction speed is very important, it's worth talking about as it defines just about everything. It is the glue that bridges theory and practicality.
So yeah, not sure why talking about it is bad here, reaction speed is literally more important than any other player feature in Smash. People see Nairo win with Zelda and think Zelda is good (or X top player playing Y) and what they don't realise is just what being smart + stupendous reaction speed actually means.

It's honestly Reaction Speed >= Player Skill (as in, a worse player with better reaction speed after a certain threshold [of skill] doesn't really matter) > Character Choice. I talk about this game as if 10-15 frame reaction windows are standard. You have to think about the game in this paradigm. The discussion in itself does detract from what the thread's purpose is, but as always, people do need to be "reminded" about the science of the nervous system.
It's also the major physical and "luck" (based genetics) factor which dwindles rather than sharpens/improve.

I've brought up some of M2K's goofier Brawl opinions as an example of why I'm skeptical that him and Zero are now hyping Sheik over Diddy, but if it was sincere it's actually a good example of how this affects matchups and character potential. Diddy and Olimar were much harder matchups for MK if you had more average reflexes. Mario is kind of going through this effect now where a lot of people think he isn't nearly as good as Ally or Anti make him look because they just do things that almost no other players can

To admit my own bias, my worse than average reflexes(230-240ms average on a GOOD day) might be part of why I don't think Sheik is as good as Diddy, Diddy's setups are just really simple and more manageable for a less talented player. So yeah, this stuff definitely affects your impressions of characters and how characters can interact with each other

For previous Marth players, what is the new character that 'beats him out' and 'replaces him' as a fast precision-based spacing character? Shulk's attacks are too slow to allow for a true 'Marth' gameplay experience, as is Pit. Who fits the bill better than Marth? I'm curious because I enjoy his playstyle but yeah - he's very lackluster. Wish he had a normal jab this time at the very least.

I don't think anyone does, a few people have mentioned ZSS but I don't feel it. Marth is still the character that plays the most like previous versions of Marth, he's just a lot worse now and does play differently especially the more you relied on fair and nair into the ground. Meta Knight was probably the closest character to Marth in Brawl and he had most of the Marth stripped out of him

 

[steelguttey]

mii gunner is way too underrated on most lists its B tier ez

so much fking movement and grenade is dumb

ok i guess this interlocks with customs being legal but jesus that move is dumb

 

[HeavyLobster]

Let's keep in mind that Charizard like the other heavies is also really tall, which means by virtue of that, you have to deal with more air game shenanigans. Which against Pikachu is a problem given his mobility options with Quick Attack. Because Charizard's aerials don't have as practical spacing applications as others aside from N-air, it gives Pikachu a lot of free reign as to how he wants to approach. Having good aerials against Pikachu at least discourages him from approaching certain ways.

Also his poor air game is an issue for actually punishing Sonic's stuff. Like, when Sonic Spin Dashes, what are you going to do to punish it?

Charizard is actually shorter than you'd think. Like Greninja he's hunched over, and his wings don't count as hitboxes. I was surprised to find that he's actually among the characters not able to be hit by Ganon's AC Bair in the idle position(except for the idle pose when he raises his head slightly), and that's something where about half the cast gets hit and the other doesn't, meaning Charizard is actually not particularly tall, even if he is fat.

 

[Karinole]

I actually think this is a good list and most characters are with +-3 spaces of where they ought to be. The metagame is probably going to evolve more but this seems like a good list for reference right now.

 

[Balgorxz]

so when they are going to legalize custom palutena

 

[HeavyLobster]

Off stage, DK is better than Dorf no? His BAir demands respect and if you air dodge he has dair or FAir waiting. Better air speed helps a lot. The only issue I can see is his vertical recovery, which is saved by customs. While I lose the hitbox on up-B, rising Kong makes his edge guarding game complete.
.

Not at all. DK has more spikes and Bair is fast, but Ganon's edgeguarding is just insane against anyone who can't recover high or teleport. His aerials are decently fast, have big hitboxes, and will instantly kill you if you come into contact with him, which is not necessarily true for DK's Bair. Also, DK's hitboxless recovery is garbage compared to default and Kong Cyclone, as it's so easy to hit and gimp such a big target without a hitbox to protect him, so even if it helps him offstage it'll never see use. The inability to go low does inhibit DK's edgeguarding game substantially, while Ganon's recovery is just enough for him to go deep when he needs to.

 

[Nu~]

Back to my claim that Villager is a trap master. Villagers more bizzare MUs now makes way more sense.
Why does Villager do so well against dedicated anti zone? Because villager wants to get in!
Why can't Villager keep out DK? because he is not bad against projectiles and Villager's are pretty easy to beat.
So on and so on.

TY for showing me my new avatar for a little while
EDIT: I can't actually use this image maybe @ Nu~ will like it

Spoiler

Glorious ^^. Will sig.
That is all

Edit: it won't let me
Ah well. Still amazing

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Lack of early kill moves outside of Charge Shot. (Not gimping, flat out killing at say 100%). A bit more recovery on her moves than I would like, particularly the missiles. Her CQC is... pretty bad. I know she has some tricks for CQC with a few of her moves, but I don't think tricks are going to do it for her. Mid range game ends up being kinda lack luster when they're just outside of Z-Air: missiles too slow, charge shot ain't a good option, but Samus doesn't want to run in either to close the gap.

She has a decent harassment long range game, amazingly quick Fsmash, a decent gimp game, a decent set of options with her aerials, a few tricks with bombs and Zair, the constant threat of a Charged Shot.... but I don't think they flow together well enough or have support from her other moves to work well.

I mean, look at Mii Gunner. If you get past his long range game of grenades and missiles, he still has his dead mid-range game with Fair/Bair/Fsmash(hard read only)/Ftilt/Possibly Down B Bomb. And then if you get past that he still has his good Nair and Jab. His Usmash is pretty great as well. You think Samus has good platform pressure with her Uair? Gunner's Uair is a more constant pressure that also eats spotdodges.

Tricks? He has insane grenade wavebouncing options, particularly when combined with Fair. If he wants to be on the other side of the stage, he's already there. Opponent decides to try to outcamp him with a faster projectile game? He has a reflector option. His gimping options are nearly identical to Samus' as well.

I generally don't like to make direct comparisons between two characters like this outside of clones but (rule of thumb is I'll miss something important)... I don't see a reason to play Samus over Mii Gunner. Almost everything outside of Zair, screw attack, and bomb stuff you can do with Gunner, but with better other options as well.

The very first thing i would like to clairfy is that Samus Is NOT a mid range zoner or even a camper. she has camping tools sure and can do it decently but one should really not be using her as such because that is not her main strenght as a character.
To comment on kill power. very Few of this games cast in general have more than 1 kill move that kills at 100% strictly even diddy can be hard pressed to do this. But 2 note samus has 4 kill moves witch that do kill at the 100% mark. the first is obviously charge shot. Second is her bair moves combo's into so many set up options its crazy being able to string in a up air to bair is also somthing to note. last is u tilt and while this one move is harder to land. its a strickingly good anti air and will kill near edge. And her f smash Isframe 10! TEN! thats crazy fast. And it kills early sweet spotted along with good range.

Yes homing missles suck. so dont use them her arch type in this game is no longer the zoning game everyone is used to. What you wana be using is Super missles for ranged harassment. throw one out and wait for there action. jumping over it can be the punished terribly since samus anti air tools are rediculous. expecially u air. U air comes out so fast and converts into so many combo options its not a move one should challenge ontop of it having a great hit box AND it does beat out air dodges. Speaking of her air attacks every single one of them has a use all of them cover an array of situations. U air is imo god tier anti air and shark tool also low lag Gunners has lag alot of lag its a commitment and does not even finish in a shot hop or combo into is self or any other move.. Bair is One of her primary kill options along with the fact that it has great range and little lag. Dair is legit one of the best dair's in the game. Not only does it have a large sweet spot. its the only dair from my knowledge to Autocancel. Along with its great range coverage being an entire down ward sweep it can be used for an array of situations like reatreating dairs since the hitbox is still on the sides. and no punish window because of auto cancel. Ontop of that the move has so little lag. Her fair Beats out air dodges and has decent kill power, And nair has a neat hit box with a sub spike knock back that can also translate to tech reads or straight up free charge shot. Alond with the move being able 2 combo in after an u air or down throw.

I'll agree with you on the bombs they limited uses but what they do is well enough. Along with making her landing on stage a whole lot more safe since u can mix it up with bomb bounces in the air to avoid juggles. Alond with making recovery less straight forrward by landing on your bombs in the air to prolonge your off stage time if needed. her zair can pressure in the same way zzs would but better since it has 2 hits that add enough hit stun that can convert into other attacks.

Samus in reality should not be compared to mii gunner in the slightest. Samus is a combo character, a heavy combo character. with a plethora ranged pressure traps to bring samus up close for her combos. super missles pop opponents up so perfectly for more u air strings or a fair kill. im almost glad that move does not kill. its such a great combo starter along with threating shield damage.

Samus's jab or f tilt get her out of any dangerous qcq situation. once percents are past 20%. ( like 10% for f tilt) And im not talking about the full jab combo im talking about the first hit of the jab that causes the slid witch was specifically made for samus 2 reatreat with.

im purposly not bringing up charge shot since that move speaks for its self considering a half charged shot eats half the games projectile options while her full charge shot loses to none but it does clank with very few.

if you perhaps wana test my claims perhaps you can pm me and we can do a battle, ill do my best 2 show you. (plus kinda board)
also i know online does not always yeild acurate result but if our connection is good im sure information can be gleamed from it.

*edit* also sorry for the long post i never realized how long it was when i was typing it. i was trying to adress as much of you post as i can and goes in depth as much to make a clear understanding. (really hope you read it all though Xd)

 

[DavemanCozy]

That list from reddit is actually much better than the previous one. To avoid making this a long post, a couple characters I've had experience against:

at top 5 doesn't seem likely after 1.04. She's definetely really good, but... oh, Dabuz posted. never mind me then, says it all.

is underrated, though without customs this character does get shafted. Still... he's not terrible with the dumb 1111 rule he's forced to use. IMO, even with the "defaults," he goes even with ZSS, Yoshi, and Sonic. Though to be fair, he's a very unexplored character, which is why I can see him and the other Miis that low.

The same goes for at D... probably because no one uses the other Miis. But even with the "default" 1111 moveset, is the Gunner really worse than nearly the entire cast? I dunno about that.

is one of the characters I play (I'd call him my secondary). I made it out of Apex round 1 pools (got 2nd seed in my pool) and used him for a couple matches (although to be fair, I shouldn't have. Tearbear got dq'd because of the shortened schedule confusion. I'll take it though).
Honestly, I think he's overrated. Personal tourney experience as well as overhearing Ally talking about him, I don't think Shulk should be sitting where he currently is. He probably has more potential than what we've seen, in my opinion I think he could possibly be a very solid addition to someone's list of secondaries or as a counterpick character to certain matchups.
He's definitely good, but I think reddit is overrating him.

seems to end up in bottom of most lists. Obviously factor #1 is customs being set to off, as she jumps in viability the moment Lightweight is available to her.
But with the current meta: she does have notably slower tilts, laggy Smashes, and an overall very powerful but (mostly) slow game she has to play.
I feel she's underrated though. Her disjointed hitboxes (specially in her jab, a very good poke and fast move), the attacks with her shield having some interesting properties, Warp giving her a tricky recovery, and her U-air and U-smash are pretty great for KO's.
Do not take this as "she's top," because I don't think she is. I just think that a position below Zelda is too low.

I've heard a lot of good arguments against and for him, as well as seen performances by Ganon users recently. He's better than what I gave him credit for, but still I'm not seeing him as a high tier simply due to many characters crapping on him. I see him as a mid-tier now, which imo should be higher than Bowser Jr.

 

[KenMeister]

Just out of curiousity, outside of ZeRo seconding Falcon, how come nobody talks about him? Where does he stand in terms of viability? I would guess high tier but I'd like to hear some professional opinions.

 

[deepseadiva]

Dissertation essay.

I'll just say I have literally never seen any recorded video of impressive Wii Fit Trainer play.

 

[Ffamran]

I'll just say I have literally never seen any recorded video of impressive Wii Fit Trainer play.

Not even TKBreezy's? He's the only WFT player I know. Random links ahoy!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zp4FqoDOb0o.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0UQS__rCCY.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ID3YUtfz11E.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgXyWGA13kY.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Cy_PpuCnqI.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUT8RM_zS-0.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7QjL3_DR9M.

Huh, he used Lucina before: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LpSoLGVuUg.

Anyway, he uses WFT in a more zoning and cautious play style along with using Deep Breathing as a feint. I don't know much about WFT, sadly...

 

[deepseadiva]

I take that back. This is actually the best WFT video ever recorded:

 

[HeavyLobster]

Just out of curiousity, outside of ZeRo seconding Falcon, how come nobody talks about him? Where does he stand in terms of viability? I would guess high tier but I'd like to hear some professional opinions.

He's mid to high-mid. He's great if he can get in on people, but struggles mightily once he's in a disadvantaged state. You generally need to be the better player to win with him, so at higher levels of play he tends to be squeezed out by more reliable characters. He's usable at a high level, but probably won't win anything major because of his weaknesses. Still super fun to play and watch. Like in Melee, he's tantalizingly close to being good enough to win a major, but not quite.

 

[Antonykun]

The very first thing i would like to clairfy is that Samus Is NOT a mid range zoner or even a camper. she has camping tools sure and can do it decently but one should really not be using her as such because that is not her main strenght as a character.
To comment on kill power. very Few of this games cast in general have more than 1 kill move that kills at 100% strictly even diddy can be hard pressed to do this. But 2 note samus has 4 kill moves witch that do kill at the 100% mark. the first is obviously charge shot. Second is her bair moves combo's into so many set up options its crazy being able to string in a up air to bair is also somthing to note. last is u tilt and while this one move is harder to land. its a strickingly good anti air and will kill near edge. And her f smash Isframe 10! TEN! thats crazy fast. And it kills early sweet spotted along with good range.

Yes homing missles suck. so dont use them her arch type in this game is no longer the zoning game everyone is used to. What you wana be using is Super missles for ranged harassment. throw one out and wait for there action. jumping over it can be the punished terribly since samus anti air tools are rediculous. expecially u air. U air comes out so fast and converts into so many combo options its not a move one should challenge ontop of it having a great hit box AND it does beat out air dodges. Speaking of her air attacks every single one of them has a use all of them cover an array of situations. U air is imo god tier anti air and shark tool also low lag Gunners has lag alot of lag its a commitment and does not even finish in a shot hop or combo into is self or any other move.. Bair is One of her primary kill options along with the fact that it has great range and little lag. Dair is legit one of the best dair's in the game. Not only does it have a large sweet spot. its the only dair from my knowledge to Autocancel. Along with its great range coverage being an entire down ward sweep it can be used for an array of situations like reatreating dairs since the hitbox is still on the sides. and no punish window because of auto cancel. Ontop of that the move has so little lag. Her fair Beats out air dodges and has decent kill power, And nair has a neat hit box with a sub spike knock back that can also translate to tech reads or straight up free charge shot. Alond with the move being able 2 combo in after an u air or down throw.

I'll agree with you on the bombs they limited uses but what they do is well enough. Along with making her landing on stage a whole lot more safe since u can mix it up with bomb bounces in the air to avoid juggles. Alond with making recovery less straight forrward by landing on your bombs in the air to prolonge your off stage time if needed. her zair can pressure in the same way zzs would but better since it has 2 hits that add enough hit stun that can convert into other attacks.

Samus in reality should not be compared to mii gunner in the slightest. Samus is a combo character, a heavy combo character. with a plethora ranged pressure traps to bring samus up close for her combos. super missles pop opponents up so perfectly for more u air strings or a fair kill. im almost glad that move does not kill. its such a great combo starter along with threating shield damage.

Samus's jab or f tilt get her out of any dangerous qcq situation. once percents are past 20%. ( like 10% for f tilt) And im not talking about the full jab combo im talking about the first hit of the jab that causes the slid witch was specifically made for samus 2 reatreat with.

im purposly not bringing up charge shot since that move speaks for its self considering a half charged shot eats half the games projectile options while her full charge shot loses to none but it does clank with very few.

if you perhaps wana test my claims perhaps you can pm me and we can do a battle, ill do my best 2 show you. (plus kinda board)
also i know online does not always yeild acurate result but if our connection is good im sure information can be gleamed from it.

*edit* also sorry for the long post i never realized how long it was when i was typing it. i was trying to adress as much of you post as i can and goes in depth as much to make a clear understanding. (really hope you read it all though Xd)

*Note to self* challenge him to a battle on friday

 

[⑨ball]

I'll just say I have literally never seen any recorded video of impressive Wii Fit Trainer play.

This is why I said I understand why people would doubt it. It's why I don't argue tier lists or anything boring like that as our understanding of tiers can only come from what we generally know.

I mean Leffen was the only notable person who claimed smash 4 Diddy was good before Jtails started showing up and wrecking everyone. Now there's not a single player who'd question him being in top 3.

I like TKBreezy a lot but he doesn't use a lot of really really good things WFT has going for her. SH header for instance is really good as you'd imagine any autocanceling projectile would be. I also don't see him using her low crouch often either which in a lot of MUs is just the stupidest thing ever.

Have you seen any of Anti?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVLyZm_Gagc&feature=youtu.be

edit: lol dissertion essay

 

[KenMeister]

He's mid to high-mid. He's great if he can get in on people, but struggles mightily once he's in a disadvantaged state. You generally need to be the better player to win with him, so at higher levels of play he tends to be squeezed out by more reliable characters. He's usable at a high level, but probably won't win anything major because of his weaknesses. Still super fun to play and watch. Like in Melee, he's tantalizingly close to being good enough to win a major, but not quite.

Guess I'll need to up my meta and be the Mang0 of Smash 4, having Falcon save the day by delivering my Knee of Justice to all the naysayers in CEO.

Jokes aside though, I can agree with that, being the worst viable character in Smash 4 (like Melee), but it's hard for me to really take tier lists seriously at this point until an official one gets posted on SmashWiki with believable match-up charts (Brawl's MU chart was so biased it wasn't even funny).

 

[Road Death Wheel]

*Note to self* challenge him to a battle on friday

I *Really* look forrward to it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Antonykun @ Nu~ try this one maybe? I put it on imgur.

Spoiler

On topic, I wouldn't be surprised if WFT turned out to be good, but I struggle to hit with half her moves so it'll take some doing.

 

[deepseadiva]

Have you seen any of Anti?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVLyZm_Gagc&feature=youtu.be

I wish there was something offline. Or even better a tournament set.

It just doesn't seem anyone is using her in tournament, which does say something about how confident people are with her.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I wish there was something offline. Or even better a tournament set.

It just doesn't seem anyone is using her in tournament, which does say something about how confident people are with her.

very few people use pika but what does that say about him? not much. people are just bandwagoning popular characters.

 

[deepseadiva]

At least there's one Pikachu.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

At least there's one Pikachu.

anti uses wft along with tk breezy. so theres 2 wft's and 1 pika. arguments getting worse buddy.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Somebody play me I'm bored.

On topic: Just looked at Dabuz tier list. It is damn solid and one I agree with almost 100%. Ikes placement was the only thing that seemed off.

Also shocked he recognizes that Marcina goes even with Rosaluma. I see we have a top player AND a scientist.

A rare occurrence.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Somebody play me I'm bored.

On topic: Just looked at Dabuz tier list. It is damn solid and one I agree with almost 100%. Ikes placement was the only thing that seemed off.

Also shocked he recognizes that Marcina goes even with Rosaluma. I see we have a top player AND a scientist.

A rare occurrence.

im ready over here ill set up a lobby.

 

[deepseadiva]

Does Anti actually main Wii Fit? :O

I did not know that honestly.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Does Anti actually main Wii Fit? :O

I did not know that honestly.

well not primary but but definitly one of his secondaries

 

[thehard]

Wait who uses Pika now that ESAM's quit? NAKAT?