Character Competitive Impressions

[~ Gheb ~]

That matchup is totally winnable for Fox. In fact a lot of Sonic's think it's Fox's favor so yeah. That works. He basically just made some HORRIBLE MI-STEAKS!

Most Fox players agree that Sonic has a slight advantage in this matchup.

 

[dragontamer]

Double Diddy DTilt OP

Clap, clap clap... Clap it up.

What was that? A 10% to 105% wombo-combo? Something around there.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

>:C SAYS THE KIRBY.

What are you implying....

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

I still need to see him play a..more traditional character. Also I wanna see that NinjaLink vs Abadango match. I was sleeping. :C

Most Fox players agree that Sonic has a slight advantage in this matchup.

Personally I feel it's even. Just thought I'd mention it. IMO it's one of those matchups where both players are annoyed by the others skillset so they both feel the other wins. Neither can really play their own game that well. To figure out an advantage it's really figuring out who has to not play their game harder. lol

 

[sunset_raven]

Most Fox players agree that Sonic has a slight advantage in this matchup.

Did you see the match? Do you think NAKAT chose a good strategy there?

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Did you see the match? Do you think NAKAT chose a good strategy there?

You mean dying @43% to back throw by chasing to the edge of the platform?

I enjoy Nakats play in general but given how that round was played he likely would have also lost if it was Tweeks Bowser Junior.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Fox wasn't the problem in that match.

 

[Nu~]

NAKAT oversimplified the matchup.

 

[FullMoon]

Rooting for MVD now that aMSa is down, Duck Hunt could use some more recognization too.

 

[thehard]

Ness and Villager is so great

 

[Kofu]

You mean dying @43% to back throw by chasing to the edge of the platform?

I enjoy Nakats play in general but given how that round was played he likely would have also lost if it was Tweeks Bowser Junior.

Yeah, that was pretty silly but he could have DIed the throw better. I don't think he really DIed it at all, actually.

 

[sunset_raven]

You mean dying @43% to back throw by chasing to the edge of the platform?

I enjoy Nakats play in general but given how that round was played he likely would have also lost if it was Tweeks Bowser Junior.

Fox wasn't the problem in that match.

NAKAT oversimplified the matchup.

I see. Thanks. How could he have played to try shake his opponent up?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Well for example NOT JUMPING ONTO THAT PLATFORM. Fox has lasers. Take your shield damage and regular laser hits.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm actually very interested in ZeRo vs M2k. It's double Diddy, but they're the top two Diddys in the world.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Fox wasn't the problem in that match.

Legit anyone but my boy Shulk would've died for doing that optionwell excusing anyone who has and opted for a command grab

Rooting for MVD now that aMSa is down, Duck Hunt could use some more recognization too.

No the dog can burn.

I see. Thanks. How could he have played to try shake his opponent up?

Not chasing onto the platform especially when he is a ness player that knows the threat of the back throw. Just like you beware Link and Rob Uthrows on top plat on battlefield.
No one can say Nakat couldn't have brought it back but he made a critical mistake that unfortunately ended him Right there.

Also he should have played Charizard because Dragons eat rodents.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I'm actually very interested in ZeRo vs M2k. It's double Diddy, but they're the top two Diddys in the world.

The USA is not the world.

Some of you seem to forget that from time to time.

 

[Zelder]

The USA is not the world.

Some of you seem to forget that from time to time.

No, those two are the top Diddy's in the world man. Who would you say are better Diddys than them? Because they didn't come out to Apex, apparently.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Also he should have played Charizard because Dragons eat rodents.

So do Foxes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvNEZ4WWQIk

 

[HeroMystic]

The USA is not the world.

Some of you seem to forget that from time to time.

And who in the world would be contenders for the world title?

 

[HeavyLobster]

So do Foxes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvNEZ4WWQIk

Do not watch that video. I have been scarred.

 

[thehard]

I just want to say that Smash 4 has some of the coolest camp/trap/projectile characters ever in Pac-Man and DHD.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

No, those two are the top Diddy's in the world man. Who would you say are better Diddys than them? Because they didn't come out to Apex, apparently.

Rain is Japan's best player and he mains Diddy Kong. There's also a japenese Diddy player named Edge who is around Nietono's level. Both are probably better than M2K.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

So The charizard and Greninja lost ... Oh well, who's left?

 

[Smog Frog]

no mons left, unfortunately

but the zard didnt lose, we can blame the ****** ass hotel for imposing the time constraints that made top 32 undoable

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So The charizard and Greninja lost ... Oh well, who's left?

Legit nothing of interest. Aerolinj might have won if he started with Paletuna by the end of his Paletuna vs PAC fight he seemed to be getting the hang of it but had too much of a deficit. If he started her as game 1 he probably would've stabilized his game plan by game 2 and might have won.

They key reflect kill was so sweet.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

no mons left, unfortunately

but the zard didnt lose, we can blame the ****** *** hotel for imposing the time constraints that made top 32 undoable

Shwaaaaaat?? So they just said like "sorry man, even thought you won, you're outta here" dammit dude that sucks. It was zards time to shine and he got takin out by time constraints... Salt

 

[Yonder]

Isn't Duck Hunt still in? That's the only interesting character I can think of left.

 

[HeroMystic]

That doubles match with Nientono and Choco...

Holy crap.

 

[dragontamer]

Legit nothing of interest. Aerolinj might have won if he started with Paletuna by the end of his Paletuna vs PAC fight he seemed to be getting the hang of it but had too much of a deficit. If he started her as game 1 he probably would've stabilized his game plan by game 2 and might have won.

They key reflect kill was so sweet.

Palutina gets wreaked by PacMan's normals so hard though.

PacMan doesn't have the best normals, but if you noticed, Abadango went for more of an aggressive melee game in the 2nd stock and still bodied Palutina.

Palutina loses in the anti-camp (because PacMan can control his projectiles to reflect in safe directions. Watch the entire first stock vs Palutina, none of those projectiles are in any position to really harm PacMan, except for the ZDrop key mistake which took a stock).

With proper spacing, Cherry, Strawberry, Orange, Apple, Galaxian, Bell, and Hydrant are all safe on reflect. They just don't bounce "back" towards PacMan. (Orange doesn't have much range. Hydrant needs to be launched at high angles with USmash, UTilt or Apple but yes, it is basically safe on reflect).

The reflector only actually matters with Key, Melon, and FTilt / FSmash launched Hydrant.

In 2nd stock, Palutina loses the melee fight. The stock was pretty clear at who has the face-to-face rushdown advantage.

He probably should have stayed Diddy. In my experience, PacMan vs Palutina is heavily in favor of PacMan.

Honestly, PacMan's projectiles are all too "vertical", that Palutina's horizontal-style reflector just doesn't quite work against PacMan. Except when you Z-Drop the key on the edge of the reflector... but really, that just shows how "vertical" PacMan's projectile game is played.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Is Abadango still in?

 

[Smog Frog]

Is Abadango still in?

he is

 

[NotLiquid]

Is Abadango still in?

Yeah, he's going up against Dabuz next.

 

[dragontamer]

RosaLuma is a horrible matchup for PacMan though. I'm worried that Abadango is going to switch to Wario.

I want to instead watch more of his PacMan for study, especially in the RosaLuma matchup.

 

[Nu~]

Palutina gets wreaked by PacMan's normals so hard though.

PacMan doesn't have the best normals, but if you noticed, Abadango went for more of an aggressive melee game in the 2nd stock and still bodied Palutina.

Palutina loses in the anti-camp (because PacMan can control his projectiles to reflect in safe directions. Watch the entire first stock vs Palutina, none of those projectiles are in any position to really harm PacMan, except for the ZDrop key mistake which took a stock).

With proper spacing, Cherry, Strawberry, Orange, Apple, Galaxian, Bell, and Hydrant are all safe on reflect. They just don't bounce "back" towards PacMan. (Orange doesn't have much range. Hydrant needs to be launched at high angles with USmash, UTilt or Apple but yes, it is basically safe on reflect).

The reflector only actually matters with Key, Melon, and FTilt / FSmash launched Hydrant.

In 2nd stock, Palutina loses the melee fight. The stock was pretty clear at who has the face-to-face rushdown advantage.

He probably should have stayed Diddy. In my experience, PacMan vs Palutina is heavily in favor of PacMan.

Honestly, PacMan's projectiles are all too "vertical", that Palutina's horizontal-style reflector just doesn't quite work against PacMan. Except when you Z-Drop the key on the edge of the reflector... but really, that just shows how "vertical" PacMan's projectile game is played.

Yeah. It's a big reason why reflectors don't give pacman much of an issue compared to other projectile users. They don't come back into his face, they bounce back slowly for pac to catch again

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Isn't Duck Hunt still in? That's the only interesting character I can think of left.

No i hate the dog.

The reflector wasnt the qualm. Aero was adapting to hydrant pressure and you cab literally see him doing the adjustments but he was behind. Diddy very likely would've been shut out same way especially since everyone's been getting Diddy practice and Abandango should have the respect by now that he warrants stronger plays from Diddy with all due respect to Aero. I doubt most people face Paletunas and the wild card might have got him a game 3 if it came out game 1. Abandango didnt do many adjustmens in his play since aero in botg sets was looking for a way in until near the end. Is what it is though.

 

[outfoxd]

No i hate the dog.

Don't hate. He just wants to play fetch.

 

[dragontamer]

Yeah. It's a big reason why reflectors don't give pacman much of an issue compared to other projectile users. They don't come back into his face, they bounce back slowly for pac to catch again

Some reflectors give PacMan trouble: Mario and Fox's for example. Mainly because Mario and Fox have the speed to get "in" after a reflected projectile.

Palutina's reflector just isn't good enough for the matchup though. Its too slow, too "horizontal".

 

[Nocally]

So do Foxes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvNEZ4WWQIk

Pikachu would like a word with you guys

 

[Kofu]

Yeah. It's a big reason why reflectors don't give pacman much of an issue compared to other projectile users. They don't come back into his face, they bounce back slowly for pac to catch again

though

Meanwhile Pocketed and launched Hydrants deal 26%. I don't think Pocketed fruits get a multiplier because they're normal items.

 

[Ffamran]

Some reflectors give PacMan trouble: Mario and Fox's for example. Mainly because Mario and Fox have the speed to get "in" after a reflected projectile.

Palutina's reflector just isn't good enough for the matchup though. Its too slow, too "horizontal".

I think - I rarely fight Pac-Men, so take this with a grain of salt - Falco's Reflector works a bit better than Palutena's Reflect Barrier since it's faster and moves forward faster than Reflect Barrier; Falco's Reflector comes out at frame 5. The only issue is that Falco's slower - he could Falco Phantasm to close the distance, but it could be punished - while Palutena has to deal with Reflect Barrier's end lag.

Anyway, I got bored, so I made a frame speed listing again.

. All right, he has really good frame data which is fine since / have good frame data too, but here's the kicker, his limbs stretch and he has the fastest aerials with Fair, Bair, and the infamous Uair along with the fastest Up Smash, fast Side Smash and Down Smash, and fast Dtilt which combos into itself. I remember someone using his Down Smash and it's a good Down Smash coming out at frame 3, but most people go for the D-throw > Uair schtick that annoys a lot of people. Diddy could have been less irritating if people mixed up his game.

Spoiler

Jab: 3rd fastest at frame 3; out of 10.
Dash Attack: 6th fastest at frame 9; out of 4 characters.
Ftilt: 7th fastest at frame 10; out of 8 characters.
Utilt: 4th fastest at frame 6; out of 9 characters.
Dtilt: 2nd fastest at frame 4; out of 3 characters.
Side Smash: 3rd fastest at frame 12; out of 4 characters.
Up Smash: The fastest at frame 5; his alone.
Down Smash: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 7 characters.
Nair: 7th fastest at frame 8; out of 6 characters.
Fair: 2nd fastest at frame 6; out of 6 characters.
Bair: 2nd fastest at frame 5; out of 3 characters.
Uair: The fastest at frame 3; his alone.
Dair: 14th fastest at frame 17; out of 7 characters.
Grab: The fastest at frame 6-7; out of 22 characters.
Dash Grab: The fastest at frame 8-9; out of 20 characters.
Pivot Grab: 2nd fastest at frame 9-10; out of 17 characters.

. While this was originally supposed to rag be on Diddy, I noticed that Greninja shares the same speed for Jab, Dash Attack, Ftilt, Bair, and Dair. Also, that Dash Grab is pretty good, but it's weird how it's the fastest grab. Most people have fast standing grabs and slower dash and pivot grabs.

Spoiler

Jab: 3rd fastest at frame 3; out of 10.
Dash Attack: 6th fastest at frame 9; out of 4 characters.
Ftilt: 7th fastest at frame 10; out of 8 characters.
Utilt: 7th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters.
Dtilt: 3rd fastest at frame 5; out of 10 characters.
Side Smash: 4th fastest at frame 13; out of 4 characters.
Up Smash: 8th fastest at frame 12; out of 4 characters.
Down Smash: 13th fastest at frame 16; out of 2 characters.
Nair: 13th fastest at frame 12; out of 3 characters.
Fair: 11th fastest at frame 16; out of 4 characters.
Bair: 2nd fastest at frame 5; out of 3 characters.
Uair: 5th fastest at frame 7; Greninja's alone.
Dair: 14th fastest at frame 17; out of 7 characters.
Grab: 7th fastest at frame 14-15; out of 2 characters. Yoshi's grab ends at 24, so Greninja recovers faster out of the 2.
Dash Grab: 2nd fastest at frame 9-10; out of 8 characters.
Pivot Grab: 6th fastest at frame 15-16; out of 3 characters. Link and Toon Link's grabs end at frame 21, so Greninja recovers faster out of the 3.

And this is from yesterday in the Rosalina Match-Up Analysis thread.

For reference on characters' attack speeds and how they compare, check this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-initial-frame-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/. Remember to thank @ItsRainingGravy.

Disclaimer: None of this accounts for range, Specials, priority, end lag, etc.
Here's 's.

Spoiler

Jab: 8th fastest at frame 8; out of 3 characters. Faster than Zelda by 3 frames.
Dash Attack: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 9 characters. Ties with Zelda.
Ftilt: 4th fastest at frame 7; out of 6 characters. Faster than Zelda by 5 frames.
Utilt: 7th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters. Slower than Zelda by 2 frames.
Dtilt: 3rd fastest at frame 5; out of 10 characters. Ties with Zelda.
Side Smash: 7th fastest at frame 16; out of 7 characters. Ties with Zelda.
Up Smash: 4th fastest at frame 8; out of 6 characters. Faster than Zelda by 1 frame.
Down Smash: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 7 characters. Slower than Zelda by 1 frame.
Nair: 8th fastest at frame 9; out of 3 characters. Slower than Zelda by 3 frames.
Fair: 7th fastest at frame 11; out of 5 characters. Slower than Zelda by 2 frames.
Bair: 6th fastest at frame 9; out of 8 characters. Slower than Zelda by 3 frames.
Uair: 6th fastest at frame 8; out of 5 characters. Faster than Zelda by 6 frames.
Dair: 14th fastest at frame 17; out of 7 characters. Slower than Zelda by 3 frames.
Grab: The fastest at frame 6-7; out of 22 characters. Faster than Zelda by 4 frames.
Dash Grab: The fastest at frame 8-9; out of 20 characters. Faster than Zelda by 3 frames.
Pivot Grab: 2nd fastest at frame 9-10; out of 17 characters. Faster than Zelda by 2 frames.

Here's 's.

Spoiler

Jab: Slowest at frame 11; hers alone. Gee, I wonder if she's slower? Slower than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Dash Attack: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 9 characters. Tied with Rosalina.
Ftilt: 9th fastest at frame 12; out of 5 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 5 frames.
Utilt: 5th fastest at frame 7; out of 7 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 2 frames.
Dtilt: 3rd fastest at frame 5; out of 10 characters. Tied with Rosalina.
Side Smash: 7th fastest at frame 16; out of 7 characters. Tied with Rosalina.
Up Smash: 5th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 1 frame.
Down Smash: 2nd fastest at frame 5; out of 5 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 1 frame.
Nair: 5th fastest at frame 6; out of 8 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Fair: 5th fastest at frame 9; out of 5 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 2 frames.
Bair: 3rd fastest at frame 6; out of 7 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Uair: 12th fastest at frame 14; out of 2 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 6 frames.
Dair: 11th fastest at frame 14; out of 8 characters. Faster than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Grab: 5th fastest at frame 10-11; out of 2 characters except Olimar's end frames are unknown. Slower than Rosalina by 4 frames.
Dash Grab: 4th fastest at frame 11-12; out of 3 characters since Zelda ties with Ganondorf and Yoshi, but Yoshi's ends at frame 21. Slower than Rosalina by 3 frames.
Pivot Grab: 4th fastest at frame 11-12; out of 9 characters. Slower than Rosalina by 2 frames.

Why did I go to this trouble of making this? Well, to clarify some things about who's slower and who's faster. The thing is that sometimes, frame data might not matter that much. For an example Ike and Falco. Ike has slow attacks, but his range, ground mobility?, and raw power makes up for it while Falco has fast attacks, but his mobility kills everything about his fast and powerful attacks. Or you could look at Ganondorf and Triple D who are slow, but powerful. There isn't one for Ike, but there is one for Mario, Falco, and Samus and as of now, Rosalina and Zelda.

Here's a link to ItsRainingGravy's ranking of Mario: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/#post-18462854.

Falco and Samus's here: http://smashboards.com/threads/list...-to-slowest-frame-speed.388564/#post-18477590.

Edit: I forgot about this, but Zelda is slower than Rosalina in only 7 moves: Jab, Ftilt, Up Smash, Uair, Grab, Dash Grab, and Pivot Grab. That's fine and dandy, but in practice it might not mean anything. Case in point: FALCO. MOVE FASTER, FALCO! BE A MARATHON SPRINTER, DAMN IT! FLAP THOSE WINGS, YOU PHEASANT!

Edit 2: Edit Harder: Unfortunately, there aren't any stuff to rank their Specials and I bet it's because everyone's Specials are different and because finding data on that can be a pain. Trust me, I tried to Falco's Blaster, Phantasm, and Custom start-up/end frames and it was a horrible experience.

Edit 3: Edit With a Vengeance: I forgot to put a disclaimer about range, end lag, and such.

Edit: I messed up Diddy's Bair, it comes out at frame 5 not 4.