Character Competitive Impressions

[Shaya]

How are his options out of dash any worse than anyone else? You've missed my point but let's take Shulk. His nair auto cancels the start up sucks. Good luck keeping Marth out when all your fastest aerial is 13 frames. Your ground moves also are slow jab is 5 frames while dtilt is ten. Because of Marth's walk speed he can get into his desired ranges while give shulk all types of problems.

Let's take Palutena whose fastest ground move is jab at 7 frames everything else is 10 + frames. Marth's fastest option is 5 frames and his dtilt is 7 frames I believe...Superior walk speed goes to marth dash and air goes to palutena I believe. Her fastest aerial is fair at 5 frames but I don't believe that it's disjointed but I could be wrong.

It's not enough to just say oh well ya know these characters out ranges Marth. While some posses superior mobility it's not enough imo for Marth to fold. Can marth not perfect pivot? I don't get why Marth's options from a dash arr considered bad when he can do everything anyone also can out of a grab.

Dancing Blade has twice the start up now and a 50% laggier IASA. Fair out of a dash is slower too (2 frames, also only hits below him for 1 frame in this game rather than 2). Dash attack is still very laggy.
He does have dolphin slash at 5 frames though.

Shulk with certain stances really can nimbly out space Marth pretty consistently. Default shulk gets kinda destroyed.

 

[Firefoxx]

Really, KOing at about 150% in optimal circumstances is standard for throws now.
Ness's is the only exception.

I'm going to list all the characters that I know can KO with one of their
throws without having to be near 200%.

Bthrowers: Megaman, Marios and Luigi, Zelda, Bowser Jr., Palutena,
Pac-Man, Toon Link, DK, Villager, Sonic.

Uthrowers: R.O.B, Olimar with Blue, Greninja according to @FullMoon,
supposedly Kirby, maybe Meta Knight?

Dthrowers: Charizard, Shulk (especially with Smash).

Fthrowers: Pit and Dark Pit, Bowser, Capt. Falcon maybe?

I probably missed some, feel free to add or correct this.

C. Falcon's back throw kills at 150. Forward throw doesn't kill until like 170 and it might be as late as 200? It's pretty bad either way. Which makes sense from a balance perspective since his dash grab is so amazing. Having a fthrow or uthrow that killed would be a little silly

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Sorry to bring this back to samus but can i say that her dair is unexpectedly usefull? short hop retreating dairs is exceptionally effective spacing tool and great way to run away from the heat of qcq. i say retreat only though since the swing gos towward ur opponent rather than away. ontop of that. it has very little lag and it auto cancel is so easy to pull off and if the attack lands auto cancel into basically any move u desire. it really helps her spacing game.

 

[Kofu]

Sonic's FThrow actually kills earlier than Bowser's against certain characters because it hits almost straight up.

 

[Ffamran]

Sonic's FThrow actually kills earlier than Bowser's against certain characters because it hits almost straight up.

GimR as Mr. G&W learned that the hard way when he fought Seagull's Sonic.

Edit: Here's the video for those that want to reference: http://youtu.be/MSufzUplu_Y.

 

[Shaya]

That link is hella busted^

 

[Ffamran]

That link is hella busted^

I think it's fixed. Blame YouTube app shenanigans... I might as well use the mobile site...

 

[InfinityCollision]

You've missed my point

No, you've missed mine. This isn't about the Marth vs X matchup, never was. It was purely intended to refute the assertion that Marth has a clear reach advantage over most of the cast.

How are his options out of dash any worse than anyone else?

Poor dash attack, unexceptional dash grab, long dash->shield time, average PP distance, specials aren't safe to approach with, and his only real option off a jump is rising fullhop fair.

 

[JediLink]

Edit: Here's the video for those that want to reference: http://youtu.be/MSufzUplu_Y.

And this is the same link but with the timestamp.

 

[Shaya]

His PP distance is pretty good IMO. I think rather than Lucina and Marth both being 3.5, I believe they're both 4.5 on whatever that original scale was.
Even if I'm wrong here, distance isn't that necessary beyond a certain amount. Some characters seem to have easier PP executions because of their initial dash lengths, which could be more than just 5 for everyone like in Brawl (could be varied between characters). But PP shield/dodge in sub 6 frames and the distance it covers is good enough

 

[InfinityCollision]

Hm, I stand corrected.

 

[Chuva]

Speaking of PP, I'm surprised we still barely see any application of it in high level play. People still rely mostly on rolls, foxtrots, short hops and regular pivots for general movement and spacing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No, you've missed mine. This isn't about the Marth vs X matchup, never was. It was purely intended to refute the assertion that Marth has a clear reach advantage over most of the cast.


Poor dash attack, unexceptional dash grab, long dash->shield time, average PP distance, specials aren't safe to approach with, and his only real option off a jump is rising fullhop fair.

All I'm trying to say is that while some characters out ranfe Marth his mobility and the speed of his moves make up for that gap. Also it's not as though you listed 25+ characters that out range Marth. You may have listed less than ten which doesn't refute the point of Marth not having a clear reach advantage over most of the cast.

@ Shaya I'm going to assume you mean speed and juml art. How much of a problem do they pose for Marth?

 

[Ffamran]

Speaking of PP, I'm surprised we still barely see any application of it in high level play. People still rely mostly on rolls, foxtrots, short hops and regular pivots for general movement and spacing.

I think 6wX does a lot of perfect pivots. Er... this video might have him doing it a lot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgtETRshJW8.

 

[Big-Cat]

Speaking of PP, I'm surprised we still barely see any application of it in high level play. People still rely mostly on rolls, foxtrots, short hops and regular pivots for general movement and spacing.

I see very limited practical usage for PP. It's too much trouble for what you get with it. Still think people need to use more walking and, if applicable, crawling.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Good luck keeping Marth out when all your fastest aerial is 13 frames. Your ground moves also are slow jab is 5 frames while dtilt is ten. Because of Marth's walk speed he can get into his desired ranges while give shulk all types of problems.

Not sure if oatmeal. N-air and F-air outrange your options, with N-air also lingering. Marth also has a frame 5 Jab lol. Sure marths Jab out-ranges shulk's, ignoring that the KB of marths Jab is booty and getting hit by it is a low-priority concern.
Speed shulk is the fastest walker in the game, yeah faster then Marth, He's also what top 4 in dash speed, and one of the fastest in the air. All Marth has for him in those respects are aerial momentum shift and his frame speed. If you air-dodge coming into shulks range Shulk gets to land and shield. then proc his Air-slash off your aerial knocking you off-stage and see how you fare. Speed shulk being particularly relevant as it's generally the most dominant and prioritized art.

Granted I can see how momentum shift + Frame speed prevent Shulk from keeping marth out despite faster speed, longer reach on normals, an unshieldable counter with more KB & Damage, and a frame 10 up special with practically twice the range of Dolphin Slash. Shoot home boy needs the frame speed given by the times he's crossed over from being in Shulks range to also being able to hit Shulk, Shulks attacks have come out. Talkin bout walking speed...Shulks boots were made for walking. Aerial momentum speed and Frame speed is the only speed you've got on Shulk, maybe recovery speed but shoot last time I checked
Shulk N-air + D-air > Marths on recov. Shulks F-air was changed and we're all too lazy to confirm the frame change. Leaving F-air*, B-air, U-air. To possibly best recovery, excusing Monado art cancels. dropping you into shield stun while shulk gets free grabs.



/overlydefensivepenguin

 

[Nobie]

I've fought a number of Greninjas lately, and I've gotten this strange feeling that Greninja has a really small hitbox in general. It's one thing to say that a character is short, but I keep feeling that Greninja also has a very THIN hitbox. I keep whiffing attacks on a grounded Greninja I don't expect to on other characters, even when he's standing still.

 

[Ffamran]

I've fought a number of Greninjas lately, and I've gotten this strange feeling that Greninja has a really small hitbox in general. It's one thing to say that a character is short, but I keep feeling that Greninja also has a very THIN hitbox. I keep whiffing attacks on a grounded Greninja I don't expect to on other characters, even when he's standing still.

Greninja's kind of thin and weirdly-shaped which sort of makes sense since Greninja's a frog. In a way, he's like Wolf if Wolf had an even lower stance and was skinnier.

Most of the time, Wolf spends most his time in a low stance at idle before transitioning to an upright stance while Fox and Falco just stay upright. The thing is, when he walks and dashes, Wolf is in an upright stance. When Fox and Falco walk, they're walking normally, but when they dash, they sort of lean forward, but it's not that much of a big deal since they're kinda short or medium sized. Greninja on the other hand, stays low pretty much all the time. When Greninja is idle, walks, dashes, jumps, and even attacks, Greninja's usually in a low stance. Sheik is in a low stance for some some attacks and her dash, but is upright for pretty much everything else.

I don't know what Greninja's hitbox is supposed to be. If it's completely accurate, then making contact with Greninja in any way such as the head, leg, or arm should damage Greninja, but if it's a stupid hitbox and takes into account only the body and head, then Greninja's hit box would be skinny and small. Hopefully, that's not the case.

Also, what character are you using? If it's a character with small range like say, Jigglypuff?, then it's understandable if you're whiffing some hits, but if you're using Shulk or Ike, then there's another problem like maybe lag is the cause. Severe lag can cause hits to register way after or way before, but I don't notice that happening in SSB4, but it was an issue with shooters since bullets travel much faster.

 

[Chuva]

I believe you guys mean his hurtbox.

 

[san.]

From what I notice, for hurtboxes that would unnaturally stick out, half of what you see isn't considered a hurtbox while the other half is. Half of Charizard's tail, half of Sonic's spikes and half of Ike's arm extension were a few I tested. Feet on the other hand seem pretty accurate. Maybe even Yoshi's nose is spared in this game.

 

[David Viran]

I've fought a number of Greninjas lately, and I've gotten this strange feeling that Greninja has a really small hitbox in general. It's one thing to say that a character is short, but I keep feeling that Greninja also has a very THIN hitbox. I keep whiffing attacks on a grounded Greninja I don't expect to on other characters, even when he's standing still.

Go try to use zss's bair. That has a thin hitbox but with suprising reach.

 

[TriTails]

Greninja leans so low that I wonder if he is actually comfortable in that pose.

Oh, and I do believe it's hurtbox.

 

[Ffamran]

I believe you guys mean his hurtbox.

Isn't hitbox still applicable to where someone's being hit? That's how I interpreted it, but that might be because of people complaining about old Mario games, especially the rom hacks, and how some enemies have "bad hit boxes".

 

[TriTails]

Isn't hitbox still applicable to where someone's being hit? That's how I interpreted it, but that might be because of people complaining about old Mario games, especially the rom hacks, and how some enemies have "bad hit boxes".

I interpreted it as....

Hitbox = Part of an attack where it can hit
Hurtbox = Part of a character body that is hittable.

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Locke 06]

"Hitbox"- The unseen underlying attack area. For example, there will usually be multiple hitboxes attached to the limbs of your character when they move them in an attack animation.

"Hurtbox"- The unseen underlying attack detection area. For example, your character's body is usually made up of hurtboxes. When a hitbox comes into contact with a hurtbox, an attack is successfully landed.

Smash Dictionary is there in the academy waiting to be read.

 

[BBC7]

G&W doesn't feel right. I can't explain what it is but I've been trying him out for the past month with no success. Anyone else have opinions, preferably more insightful than mine?

 

[Asdioh]

From what I notice, for hurtboxes that would unnaturally stick out, half of what you see isn't considered a hurtbox while the other half is. Half of Charizard's tail, half of Sonic's spikes and half of Ike's arm extension were a few I tested. Feet on the other hand seem pretty accurate. Maybe even Yoshi's nose is spared in this game.

Kirby with sword feet for smash 5?

 

[Ffamran]

So, this is probably more me being used to terms used differently in other games... Anyway...

G&W is trash. I can't explain what it is but I've been trying him out for the past month with no success. Anyone else have opinions, preferably more insightful than mine?

Play Mr. Game & Watch like a gambler. Join the GimR 9 Hammer train!

I don't know much about Mr. G&W, but there are a lot of things you do to exploit his strengths like his Up Smash has I-frames, Down and Side Smash has good range, Dtilt is apparently really good and can do wacky things, but I don't know what, GimR uses Uair as a way to force people to do something before they want to and it can kill with just the windbox, Nair has fantastic coverage, Bair has good range, Jab combo has good range, and his D-throw has like no knockback, but if the RNG Goddess is favoring you that day, then you could follow-up with a 9 from Judge. Also, Bacon is an annoying camping tool since it covers an annoying area.

 

[Shaya]

G&W is great but completely lacks a way to kill anyone, ever (atm).
Up Smash is safe on shield (maybe even power shield), it's practically lagless and with invincibility it has to be respected, that gets you a lot of openings and free damage, but you still are looking for that kill eventually (ftilt near a ledge at frame 10 can kill at around 120).

I looked at his up-air data and have some theory about really tight spacing of his uair to get the second hit/not wind box them away. That move kills extremely early (sub 100% even) and may be the ticket to unlocking his greatness. It is frame 6 though, but as it is pseudo neutral-air like I think doing it out of shield is plausible in the future, and other general near-ground applications. Down air cancels jump momentum from frame 1 of the move, which has some interesting mid read applications (someone rolling into you/spot dodging).

He has a really good dash game. His extreme light weight makes things tricky.
Bucket has some really weird aerial momentum enhancing properties that could be explored.

Down throw up-b could have promise too.

 

[Kofu]

I concur with Shaya, UAir is really good for killing with Game & Watch. I've been having reasonable success with DThrow into UAir around 100% to kill with him. I don't think the move is confirmed, although you force the opponent to play a guessing game and it's quite possible to bait an airdodge to get the kill. It works best on characters that fall quickly and/or those with large hurtboxes. You can catch floatier folks with it but it's harder. I've also had some success wit sweetspot DSmash as people try to land next to him; the whole hammer head is an active hitbox for 5 frames which is really nice. Also don't discount Judge; I honestly feel that they weakened his kill power because 9s and buckets are so ludicrously strong.

 

[IsmaR]

I feel like Judgment's randomness has been skewed for the worse. Though it's probably placebo effect, 1 seems more common/9 seems rarer.

The multi-hit custom for it is cray, though.

 

[Smog Frog]

speaking of gnw customs, up b 3 is a kill move that kills around the 100~ range off of the ground, its completely possible to get sub 100 kills by chasing folks into the air with it, and the combo potential is real with it

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Diverting back to Greninja's hurtbox weirdness, something to keep in mind is that even though Smash is played on a 2D plane, the hit/hurtboxes are still calculated in 3D. IIRC Dedede's spotdodge is/was unnaturally good because the animation put him so far into the Z axis that many attacks would whiff even after the invincibility frames ended. There may be something similar going on again.

 

[Lavani]

Diverting back to Greninja's hurtbox weirdness, something to keep in mind is that even though Smash is played on a 2D plane, the hit/hurtboxes are still calculated in 3D. IIRC Dedede's spotdodge is/was unnaturally good because the animation put him so far into the Z axis that many attacks would whiff even after the invincibility frames ended. There may be something similar going on again.

I was just about to mention this.

Another silly example.

 

[Ffamran]

I was just about to mention this.

Another silly example.

So... how many taunts can be used as spot dodges now? I know Wii Fit Trainer's stretch taunt can be used like a crouch dodge and Mega Man and Meta Knight's vanish and appear taunts had similar effects... Hmm, maybe Mario getting a "game over" isn't a bad thing at all.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So... how many taunts can be used as spot dodges now? I know Wii Fit Trainer's stretch taunt can be used like a crouch dodge and Mega Man and Meta Knight's vanish and appear taunts had similar effects... Hmm, maybe Mario getting a "game over" isn't a bad thing at all.

I've seen Rosalina dodge PK Fire by using usmash. I think it was Dabuz (surprise surprise).

 

[Ffamran]

I've seen Rosalina dodge PK Fire by using usmash. I think it was Dabuz (surprise surprise).

Well, Little Mac can dodge stuff with his Jolt Haymaker. It's especially good at dodging the stage.

Yeah, I remember some attacks that have characters jumping and such allowing them to dodge stuff that's coming from the ground. I can totally see Diddy "dodging" with his Side Smash or Link "dodging" with this Jump Attack. Heck, can't Captain Falcon and Ganondorf "glide" over stuff with their Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, Little Mac can dodge stuff with his Jolt Haymaker. It's especially good at dodging the stage.

Yeah, I remember some attacks that have characters jumping and such allowing them to dodge stuff that's coming from the ground. I can totally see Diddy "dodging" with his Side Smash or Link "dodging" with this Jump Attack. Heck, can't Captain Falcon and Ganondorf "glide" over stuff with their Falcon Kick and Wizard's Foot?

Hell, Ganondorf has a custom for it: Wizard's Dropkick.

 

[Antonykun]

Umm so I finnally decided to play sheik for reals (Rather than as an evaluation of her moves) and I now understand why the seats in the Sheik hype train have superglue on them :/.
I wish Swordfighter was 3/4ths as insane (i think they're at least half)
Still love them <3

 

[Nobie]

Greninja's kind of thin and weirdly-shaped which sort of makes sense since Greninja's a frog. In a way, he's like Wolf if Wolf had an even lower stance and was skinnier.

Most of the time, Wolf spends most his time in a low stance at idle before transitioning to an upright stance while Fox and Falco just stay upright. The thing is, when he walks and dashes, Wolf is in an upright stance. When Fox and Falco walk, they're walking normally, but when they dash, they sort of lean forward, but it's not that much of a big deal since they're kinda short or medium sized. Greninja on the other hand, stays low pretty much all the time. When Greninja is idle, walks, dashes, jumps, and even attacks, Greninja's usually in a low stance. Sheik is in a low stance for some some attacks and her dash, but is upright for pretty much everything else.

I don't know what Greninja's hitbox is supposed to be. If it's completely accurate, then making contact with Greninja in any way such as the head, leg, or arm should damage Greninja, but if it's a stupid hitbox and takes into account only the body and head, then Greninja's hit box would be skinny and small. Hopefully, that's not the case.

Also, what character are you using? If it's a character with small range like say, Jigglypuff?, then it's understandable if you're whiffing some hits, but if you're using Shulk or Ike, then there's another problem like maybe lag is the cause. Severe lag can cause hits to register way after or way before, but I don't notice that happening in SSB4, but it was an issue with shooters since bullets travel much faster.

First, yes I meant hurtbox or whatever.

Second, I mainly use Mega Man. It's one of those things where I'm aware that his bair and fair have animations that are a bit larger than the actual hitboxes of those attacks, but I kept finding myself just completely missing attacks I thought would have definitely hit Greninja. One example is that Greninja is charging Water Shuriken, I jump over and think I should be able to land a fair, except it just completely whiffs and I get a face full of spinning water.

Another example is that I tried to slide into Greninja as it was starting up a down smash. I actually somehow slid through Greninja without it taking any damage, and then got hit right after.