Character Competitive Impressions

[RIP_Lucas]

Sorry, new to smash boards, but are mii fighters going to be allowed in tournaments? If not, why are we discussing them? I know there's custom move tourneys, but same for custom moves

 

[FlareHabanero]

When it comes to Monado Arts, sometimes it's a better idea to stick with Vanilla. Vanilla Shulk is a jack of all trades, meaning it's useful in a neutral position. You don't need to worry about being exploited with the negatives provided with the Monado Arts, meaning you don't need to worry about details like recieving more damage in Buster or having less power in Speed. It's also helpful in those rare situations when you use up Monado Arts and need some time to refresh everything.

Of course, that's another complication to this whole equation. Sometimes it's better to stick with Vanilla, sometimes some Monado Art would be more appropriate. It's based a lot around match ups. In my case I tend to focus more of Vanilla in cases where the character has a lot of stage control with speed, like Sonic for example.

 

[Luco]

There's no reason not to allow them, same with custom moves. Once people stop freaking out about logistics and that's all sorted then it'll probably be fine.

To be totally honest I see 'vanilla' shulk as just another stance in reality. He has his own drawbacks and strengths, which averages out to be a midway point between his other stances; but if you think about things this way, then in a sense every character is their own 'stance' and Shulk is unique in the ability to change his character type.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Move over Pika, making Mii Gunner my next secondary. I'm finding more stuff with this character almost every time I play with him/her. Learned on the Gunner boards how you can edge cancel with flame pillar, meaning you can pivot flame pillar at the edge of a platform, and it'll cancel, so you'd be able to reverse fair off of a platform. You can also do silly things like multi-B reverse with the grenade and get ridiculous air and ground momentum with fair.

I personally prefer the utility of the missiles over flame pillar. If you know the opponent is stuck in the air, toss two homing missiles up at them, throw in some traps and mix ups with Uair and Fair. Or combining the missile types with the Neutral B and Down B grenade while under a platform. Can easily place a grenade in front of you, above you, and then bombard with missiles and Fairs/Ftilt/Fsmashes.

Nair I find to be surprisingly great in its hitbox as well. If Gunner had a Zair like Samus, I'd say he'd be top tier.

 

[san.]

I guess the only characters that are fine against Buster Shulk are those whose attacks already deal 12 or more damage, assuming the extra damage is applied to Shulk's shield as well. It'll make those moves safer, theoretically.

I personally prefer the utility of the missiles over flame pillar. If you know the opponent is stuck in the air, toss two homing missiles up at them, throw in some traps and mix ups with Uair and Fair. Or combining the missile types with the Neutral B and Down B grenade while under a platform. Can easily place a grenade in front of you, above you, and then bombard with missiles and Fairs/Ftilt/Fsmashes.

Nair I find to be surprisingly great in its hitbox as well. If Gunner had a Zair like Samus, I'd say he'd be top tier.

I like missile, but it's so laggy that I would just stick with grenade + aerial of choice. I'd definitely use it vs. Ness since it can't be absorbed. Nair is quite decent. I haven't really tapped into it too much since I'm not aware if it can true combo into anything just yet. I definitely like using it offstage. Jump + Grenade then fair/nair above and have the grenade explode below.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I personally prefer the utility of the missiles over flame pillar. If you know the opponent is stuck in the air, toss two homing missiles up at them, throw in some traps and mix ups with Uair and Fair. Or combining the missile types with the Neutral B and Down B grenade while under a platform. Can easily place a grenade in front of you, above you, and then bombard with missiles and Fairs/Ftilt/Fsmashes.

Nair I find to be surprisingly great in its hitbox as well. If Gunner had a Zair like Samus, I'd say he'd be top tier.

If he had a Z-air without the tether? Don't excite me.

I like every god damn 1 of his side specials. However im using flame pillar right now, I want the approach pacing it grants right now as I learn his options. F-air is so good, the funny thing is all these projectile aerials Villagers F-air/B-air and megamans lemons are good. Samus will have to cry her heart out.
Probably going to be another week or three till more catch up on the Gunner craze.
His U-air seems to string on heavies and some midweights? If im not mistaken it has decent KBG to boot. However given U-smash and dtilt they wont live to make that relevant.

 

[Shaya]

I guess the only characters that are fine against Buster Shulk are those whose attacks already deal 12 or more damage, assuming the extra damage is applied to Shulk's shield as well. It'll make those moves safer, theoretically.

I've wondered about this personally. I've done so many disgusting things to Shulk as Falco on wifi that I could be completely wrong, but act as if it does.
Btw this game interprets damage in decimal points, and hit lag and shield stun frames can also be in 'decimal points'.
Base hit lag is 5.25 frames for example, a 4 damage move has 3 shield stun while a 6 damage move has 3.5 (with 6 frames of hit lag).

The game functions 'perfectly' at 1/4 speed in training mode. How things go when you transition from 240 to 60 fps is interesting.

Talking about Falco vs Shulk though.
Anyone else ever killed Shulk at 0% with backthrow when they're in smash mode?
It feels sooooo good. I get low percent kill throws on Smash Shulk all the time, those multi-lasers he shoots out are DEATH BEAMS.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

In 2 weeks Shaya will be talking about Gunner.
#prophecy.

The amount of crap that kills Shulk in Smash is also why I grew very wary of using it initially and have begun easing myself back in to it. Speeds so reliable right now though, you can legitimately maintain a core rotation of Jump,Speed, Vanilla and be relatively solid. More importantly getting used to the differences in mobility is important given how it effects your spacing, and since i hope into DMA occasionally and will eventually break into HMA, getting used to the movement is important.

 

[FlareHabanero]

I guess the only characters that are fine against Buster Shulk are those whose attacks already deal 12 or more damage, assuming the extra damage is applied to Shulk's shield as well. It'll make those moves safer, theoretically.

Generally speaking, agressive characters can take advantage of the worse defense by giving their fast attacks an extra sense of sting. A basic example is the Diddy combo game, where Buster becomes more of a liability if you're bad at reading throws and attacks.

 

[NairWizard]

You guys make Gunner sound so promising, man.

I'm going to have a fit if I lose this weekend's tourney with Gunner.

 

[san.]

You guys make Gunner sound so promising, man.

I'm going to have a fit if I lose this weekend's tourney with Gunner.

Have you been using her often recently? What are your thoughts?

 

[Asdioh]

Shulk is probably one of the more fun matchups for a character that may or may not be absurdly strong IMO. Requires effort from both sides and is generally crazy, honestly an intriguing character that I might think about if I ever stop being mediocre.

Arts are usually what we need to learn since Shulk generally always is in a stance at any given moment, no?
There are constants in the Shulk MU regardless of the stance, granted. But if I grab Shulk in whatever stance he is at whatever % he might be, I want to know what the hell will happen to him after I down throw him.

-How much damage will I deal?
-How far is he gonna fly?
-Can I send him offstage and edgeguard him reliably?
-Can he really feel my RAR'd bair?

Answers to these questions, and much more, in "Holy **** that MU is deep."

Try playing Kirby with the Monado against Shulk, that's the most fun matchup in smash history for me.

 

[Shaya]

In 2 weeks Shaya will be talking about Gunner.
#prophecy.

The amount of crap that kills Shulk in Smash is also why I grew very wary of using it initially and have begun easing myself back in to it. Speeds so reliable right now though, you can legitimately maintain a core rotation of Jump,Speed, Vanilla and be relatively solid.

I already talked about gunner in the past though :>
Personally I find their stuff pretty power shieldable, does require respecting a lot of their options. Kinda feels like a less annoying villager from my experiences (but has lots of swagger and tricksies on top of it).

But hey, I play Falco. GET INVALIDATED.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Feel like there are plenty of threats in this early stage and I love it.

Brb. Mii Falco Gunner vs Falco
If any Shulk main doesn't have a Dckson Gunner just quit the game.

I've wondered about this personally. I've done so many disgusting things to Shulk as Falco on wifi that I could be completely wrong, but act as if it does.
Btw this game interprets damage in decimal points, and hit lag and shield stun frames can also be in 'decimal points'.
Base hit lag is 5.25 frames for example, a 4 damage move has 3 shield stun while a 6 damage move has 3.5 (with 6 frames of hit lag).

The game functions 'perfectly' at 1/4 speed in training mode. How things go when you transition from 240 to 60 fps is interesting.

Talking about Falco vs Shulk though.
Anyone else ever killed Shulk at 0% with backthrow when they're in smash mode?
It feels sooooo good. I get low percent kill throws on Smash Shulk all the time, those multi-lasers he shoots out are DEATH BEAMS.

Excuse the double post if it happens but I should've payed more attention to this.

Is there a base to Shield stun as in a minimum then as well?. Have you gotten how these things are factored?
If 6 damage is 3.5 then 12 is 7 or am I misinterpreting as it does not seem to be linear at all so I doubt it would be 7. Was there a thread for this that I missed?

 

[NairWizard]

Have you been using her often recently? What are your thoughts?

I have mixed reactions to Gunner based on first impressions.

She's got apparently no problems killing, which is the first thing I look for in a character (can't end stocks? get off my lawn). Grenade launcher is a cool way to get some surprise kills in because you can charge it for a bit and jump while you're charging it. Hitting people with it at point-blank range is always hilarious, and no one sees it coming, but that seems to be matchup inexperience at least for now (people will play it more safe around Gunner in close range once they know the MU, I think). f-smash and d-smash have so much endlag that I get punished even though f-smash has tons of range, so I almost never throw those moves out, but up-smash is awesome, and d-tilt can kill kind of like Samus' (it's basically a smash attack). Up-b kills if you take Cannon Uppercut, so that's nifty.

Overall ground game is surprisingly decent: jab has good range, and up-tilt has a hitbox in front of you and is strong. F-tilt and d-tilt are basically not worth using in neutral, in my experience, but one of the best zoning games in the game for sure, especially with her choice of reflector (energy vs. physical projectiles).

Aerial game is less amazing than I had anticipated. N-air interrupt is not very good because of the way it swings, though I'm somewhat OK with that because of the way that she can reverse momentum in the air with f-air. She has decent recovery options, but all of them are edgeguardable, and f-air doesn't really protect you from much when you're recovering (can you turn around reverse f-air somehow? that might be useful).

And it's less amazing not just when she's in disadvantage, but also in advantage. Her aerials don't cover the space diagonally above her; up-air covers directly above, and f-air covers directly in front, but when an opponent is falling at an angle she can't do very much.

Edgeguarding opponents is not too bad because of her projectiles, but you won't land a KO that way, at least, and she can't really go off stage easily at all (and gets little from doing so) because her recovery is average/mediocre (I guess I should consider taking 3; 1 and 2 are really mediocre though imo).

So I think she's solid, just not sold that she's high tier or something.

 

[ATH_]

Okay, as fair warning, I've only read about the first two pages or so but understand that this was started a while back. I own both versions and have played them both for a total of about 300+hours so far.

As a strong impression 10 days into the Wii U version, there's a really nice 4 characters who have seemed to shine the most in tournaments, streams, and matches overall. These are the obvious ones though, Diddy Kong, Rosaluma, Fox, and Sheik. However, I would not consider these 4 to be the "best".

I personally think that they are simply extremely viable as far as their mobility, gimmick, and power goes. Other characters such as Yoshi (YES) and Link also are packing a very strong punch...or...sword too. There's a lot of good characters in this game mind you, and seemingly, the one's that are standing out seem to all have something similar about them...

Diddy has really strong and easy to pull off combos. The most note-worthy is the infamous Dthrow > UpAir. This kills early, does lots of damage otherwise, and can throw you and your opponent into a mindgame of "Go ahead, airdodge."

Fox has similar aspects, having his UpTilt be super combo-based. You can get three of these off then at certain percents, combo into a FTilt, Dash Attack, and even DAir. Again, another character who can limit your opponents options while giving the player more.

Rosaluma has a gimick, one that forces you to play how she wants you to play, rather then what you wanna do. This is similar to Ice Climbers in Brawl. The biggest difference though is that Rosaluma is SIGNIFICANTLY powerful. Not disclaiming the IC, only making it clear that these two are beasts.

Sheik is probably the easiest to learn of this whole bunch. "They took all the skill out of sheik." was a quote straight from M2K, one of the best (if not the best) Sheik players in Melee. Sheik has strong combos, tons of options for everything, and is super fast.

What do these 4 have in common then? Many things, actually. However, some are broken up. Here are the factors:
Easy to pick up
Easy to combo with/Learn combos
Overloading options in many situations
Early kills

Now of course, the sore thumb here is Rosaluma. Honestly though, she deserves to be! In my general opinion, she takes the most skill to get good with. I'm not saying you can pick up the other 3 overnight and expect to win a tournament, no, no, I'm saying that the other 3 are simply more adapted to different players and cover a wider range of preferences.

Anyway, to sum it up, these again are not the "best" characters in the game imo. These are my simple impressions as to WHY they are shining so bright and popping up commonly. I am aware of the debuffs to Sheik, however, anything I said about her still stands to be true (in my eyes, that is). Sheik is probably the only one who I haven't seen much play of at tournaments, but mainly online and on streams. Hence the earlier criteria.

 

[ZHMT]

I remember Shaya saying a bit back that 10 damage was 8 frames of shield stun. Was that accurate Shaya?

I wish we had the formula for it.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I have mixed reactions to Gunner based on first impressions.

She's got apparently no problems killing, which is the first thing I look for in a character (can't end stocks? get off my lawn). Grenade launcher is a cool way to get some surprise kills in because you can charge it for a bit and jump while you're charging it. Hitting people with it at point-blank range is always hilarious, and no one sees it coming, but that seems to be matchup inexperience at least for now (people will play it more safe around Gunner in close range once they know the MU, I think). f-smash and d-smash have so much endlag that I get punished even though f-smash has tons of range, so I almost never throw those moves out, but up-smash is awesome, and d-tilt can kill kind of like Samus' (it's basically a smash attack). Up-b kills if you take Cannon Uppercut, so that's nifty.

Overall ground game is surprisingly decent: jab has good range, and up-tilt has a hitbox in front of you and is strong. F-tilt and d-tilt are basically not worth using in neutral, in my experience, but one of the best zoning games in the game for sure, especially with her choice of reflector (energy vs. physical projectiles).

Aerial game is less amazing than I had anticipated. N-air interrupt is not very good because of the way it swings, though I'm somewhat OK with that because of the way that she can reverse momentum in the air with f-air. She has decent recovery options, but all of them are edgeguardable, and f-air doesn't really protect you from much when you're recovering (can you turn around reverse f-air somehow? that might be useful).

And it's less amazing not just when she's in disadvantage, but also in advantage. Her aerials don't cover the space diagonally above her; up-air covers directly above, and f-air covers directly in front, but when an opponent is falling at an angle she can't do very much.

Edgeguarding opponents is not too bad because of her projectiles, but you won't land a KO that way, at least, and she can't really go off stage easily at all (and gets little from doing so) because her recovery is average/mediocre (I guess I should consider taking 3; 1 and 2 are really mediocre though imo).

So I think she's solid, just not sold that she's high tier or something.

Use Homing Missile or Wavebounced Grenade to cover diagonal up. Not a great option but you can force them to airdodge, which is all Gunner needs before hitting them with another aerial.

Wavebounced Grenade can also just... get you out of that situation in the first place.

 

[san.]

I have mixed reactions to Gunner based on first impressions.

She's got apparently no problems killing, which is the first thing I look for in a character (can't end stocks? get off my lawn). Grenade launcher is a cool way to get some surprise kills in because you can charge it for a bit and jump while you're charging it. Hitting people with it at point-blank range is always hilarious, and no one sees it coming, but that seems to be matchup inexperience at least for now (people will play it more safe around Gunner in close range once they know the MU, I think). f-smash and d-smash have so much endlag that I get punished even though f-smash has tons of range, so I almost never throw those moves out, but up-smash is awesome, and d-tilt can kill kind of like Samus' (it's basically a smash attack). Up-b kills if you take Cannon Uppercut, so that's nifty.

I am using a minimum height, max weight Mii, which seems to be optimal (slightly above max shortness seems to be best, since minimum height upsmash tends to whiff on hit sometimes, unlike taller Miis). Weight seems to affect the size of the blast, while height partially affects reach on smashes and aerials outside of fair.

The key to grenade is to use it pre-emptively and follow its path, using safe moves while in its explosion. You can freely move while using this move, and can b-reverse multiple times from it. Dsmash isn't laggy at all for short Miis from my experience.

Overall ground game is surprisingly decent: jab has good range, and up-tilt has a hitbox in front of you and is strong. F-tilt and d-tilt are basically not worth using in neutral, in my experience, but one of the best zoning games in the game for sure, especially with her choice of reflector (energy vs. physical projectiles).

I agree with this. You'd really just want to do a retreating fair or pivot grenade or fire pillar. Bair works, too.

Aerial game is less amazing than I had anticipated. N-air interrupt is not very good because of the way it swings, though I'm somewhat OK with that because of the way that she can reverse momentum in the air with f-air. She has decent recovery options, but all of them are edgeguardable, and f-air doesn't really protect you from much when you're recovering (can you turn around reverse f-air somehow? that might be useful).

And it's less amazing not just when she's in disadvantage, but also in advantage. Her aerials don't cover the space diagonally above her; up-air covers directly above, and f-air covers directly in front, but when an opponent is falling at an angle she can't do very much.

At max weight, bair has great range to it, deals 12% damage, and it autocancels from a shorthop fastfall like Diddy's fair at min height. Nair is poor when using it outside of platform pressure and offstage, but it's great when supplemented with grenade.

Edgeguarding opponents is not too bad because of her projectiles, but you won't land a KO that way, at least, and she can't really go off stage easily at all (and gets little from doing so) because her recovery is average/mediocre (I guess I should consider taking 3; 1 and 2 are really mediocre though imo).

So I think she's solid, just not sold that she's high tier or something.

The strategy of jump+grenade then nairing/fairing offstage works very well for me. You most definitely need upB3. I have little worries about recovering with it when using grenade and fair to cover myself. If they're already close to the stage, a grenade forces them to hug the wall of the stage, allowing for bairs/nairs. Of course, you can also just grenade on-stage with little risk.

 

[Conda]

Mii Gunner is solid honestly. No real gaping holes in the character, unlike Samus, and has great specials.

Commentated some Mii Gunner tournament play recently actually.

Vs greninja https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cqUurvh0bM

Vs rosalina https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJVKpREDD_c

My impressions are the same as they wree many pages back - Mii Gunner is super solid and unique. Not broken or anything I don't think, but has a lot of unique and valuable quirks.

Also apologies for not posting here as much in the past week or so. I've been working and focusing on developing/establishing my competitive smash channel.
Any of your support would be awesome, my goal is to grow the competitive smash scene, both spectators and viewers. Let me know if you guys are doing any video content production yourselves.

 

[san.]

Trust me, Gunner is capable of much more than what I saw in those videos. Probably a lot of wifi messing things up, too, as well as poor custom choice (probably worst combinations imo).

 

[BSP]

Yeah I know his throws are pretty good, but having a terrible grab detracts a lot from your grab game. I include the practicality of landing the grab as part of the grab game. I also agree that he would be pretty scary with a good grab. Perhaps he should be. Just my 2 cents.

Pac Man would be top 5 with a normal grab. Man, I wish...there would be so much crap he could put people through.

I remember posting my top 5 here a long time ago. It has changed now after the patch.

On to the topic of Mario. I personally feel like Mario is a candidate for Mid/bottom high tier. Mew2king thinks the character is a big sleeper and Ally believes he is 7th in the game. Throughout the current high/top level players I speak to I have heard nothing but good things about Mario.

Can we see some 's next to your names in the future then? For someone so good, there's been a lack of him in high placings.

Reliable kill power (Lacked in Melee and Brawl)

Usmash is decent in this game, yes, but you've still got to wait till about 120% to KO people with it. He still doesn't really have setups into it or any of his killers though, except maybe EJP. I can't speak about EJP from experience though since we aren't using customs down here yet.

120% is pretty average in this game, isn't it? Fsmash KOs much earlier, but good luck landing that consistently. Dsmash got gutted too, but at least the reverse hit is decent. However, it is more reliable than it was.

Improved Up-B (Lacked in every iteration of Smash) (Up-B also has some startup invincibility making it great for punishes and hard to gimp him if well timed.)

His up B was fine in Brawl. Unless it changed, I don't think it's invincible on startup. It had invincibility from frame 3-5, and I know from experience in this game that mashing jab can compete with the startup of 's up B. That being said, yes, it is good for beating obvious stuff, bu if the opponent comes out deep to edgeguard (which not many people seem to be doing for some reason), can't throw out up B too soon or he's not going to make it back. If you try to recover high, all you've got are Breverse Fireballs and a minor capestall to attempt to avoid juggling.

Cape still having the ability to really hurt and net early kills and is good for overall off stage pressure.

Cape didn't change much from Brawl outside of a smaller reflecting window and a worse stall. That being said, yes, it's still decent for offstage pressure and it must be worried about, but it's pretty easy to see coming since Mario has to come at you for it.

No longer can be edge hogged

Yes, this is huge and was the cause of many of my deaths in Brawl.

Aerial mobility is very good

There's no official list of airspeeds yet, but it is pretty good.

His combo potential is excellent and nets a very good amount of damage. He can also combo out of his dthrow

I think people overrate his combos.

They are situational. They're not very good at low %. A lot of characters can Nair Mario for trying to Utilt repeatedly(Pac Man, Mario, Doc, Luigi just to name a few), jump out altogether before getting hit by the next utilt (I know Diddy can, happened to me yesterday), or land and shield before the next Utilt hits them (Mega Man did this to me). Even if you do manage to link 4/5 of them...that's 21% or so. That's not hard to make up at all.

At mid percents, it gets a bit better and he can start chaining utilts together reliably and uairs. It's usually not hard to hit 4 Uairs in a row on people at the right percent. The problem is that this only does about 26%, which means most opponents can catch up in about two hits, so in a broad perspective it's not that great.

Don't get me wrong, Mario can do some really long chains at times, but I wouldn't expect them every match. Do they happen consistently for you guys?

Once you're past combo %, you're stuck with single hits with pretty low damage per hit (which means he will lose trading battles) until you can get them to KO%. If you can't KO them quickly, then you have to deal with rage.

I don't think his iffy combos justify

a below average neutral game
low damage per hit (this would be fine if his combos were always reliable, but they aren't)
linear, easily intercepted recovery
Very few answers to juggling
Poor range (which would also be fine if his combos always worked)

No more meteor canceling making fair actually good

Yep, now all they have to do is remove teching grounded meteors and it'd be great. It is nice to know that if you land one offstage, you're getting that KO now.

Dair is good for safe pressure when used to retreat and cross an opponents shield

Yes.

Has average speed so it's not good or bad

Yeah. Probably above average attack speed.

Edge Guarding game is great. His aerials are really useful in this department.

I don't know if I'd call it great. He can't go that deep himself due to his limited recovery, but the combination of Bair, Nair, Uair, reverse Uair, Cape, and FLUDD is something to worry about.

That being said, I don't predict seeing too many high level gimps with Mario, because recoveries are great in general and his aerials don't hit that hard. Again, cape is somewhat easy to see coming, and FLUDD is situational too.

Fire Ball is a good zoning tool.

It's ok. Could be worse.

His general kit is not bad and the mechanics of this game aid him well. Outside of me doing well with Mario I watch Ally frequently and see the same demonstration of skill. Along with other players such as Anti, Kadaj, etc.

Use him in tournament more please.

Mario is a good character in this game in my opinion and the many opinions of others. No where close to his previous counterparts or near low tier.

Yes, but still not good enough. His low % game is still too unreliable to justify his weaknesses in other areas.

Ally's response to Mario being "Bottom 5."

"........"
I think I will take the opinions of other top/high level players and weigh them with my own on this one.

Ok, well use him more please. Maybe you guys are just that much better, but I'm still not seeing him any higher than mid tier.

Saw some Shulk talk. The moment I saw Ftilt in Buster do 19%, I was done. Couple that with Smash and that's a 1/4 of your stock depending on who you're playing as.

 

[Shaya]

Is there a base to Shield stun as in a minimum then as well?. Have you gotten how these things are factored?
If 6 damage is 3.5 then 12 is 7 or am I misinterpreting as it does not seem to be linear at all so I doubt it would be 7. Was there a thread for this that I missed?

Definitely not linear.

DMG | Hit Lag | Shield Stun
4 | 5.25 | 3
6 | 6 | 3.5
7 | 6.25 | 3.75
10 | 7.5 | ?
13 | 9.25 | 5.75
19 | 11.25 | 7
3 | 5.25 | 2

Testing this was torturous as a single person on 3DS. So **** all of you I'm not bothering ever again.
Shield stun is really low in this game.

 

[AlMasterX]

Tiers are so distorted and skewed in this game. The fact that it's based off wins means nothing, especially in for glory mode where there are some characters that aren't even touched in the cast. Except for a small handful of ****ty characters, most of these characters are equals and it just comes down to player skill, stages, and matchups. My Shulk and my Villager have taken down a large amount of Shieks, ZSS, Rosalinas, and Lucarios. Put everything you got into your favorite characters from your favorite games and you'll win!

 

[Chuva]

f-smash and d-smash have so much endlag that I get punished even though f-smash has tons of range, so I almost never throw those moves out

Fsmash is best used with Grenade Launch, as grenade's lingering hitbox helps cover the laggy start-up of Fsmash (17 frames). Assuming you're throwing a grenade and it reaches the opponent at Fsmash's nearly-max range, if they shield the grenade your Fsmash is safe because it's almost a true blockstring, if they roll towards you Fsmash punishes it, if they roll away your Fsmash is unpunished (probably with a few exceptions like Mac's DA/Pit's Side-B)

The idea behind Grenade Launch is to control stage space while trying to force mistakes from your opponent. I think no matter how much you know the MU, unless you've a good anti-projectile game, it's really hard to contest grenades given how you can have almost two of them active at the same time and they can be used in a very mobile manner.

 

[NairWizard]

Fsmash is best used with Grenade Launch, as grenade's lingering hitbox helps cover the laggy start-up of Fsmash (17 frames). Assuming you're throwing a grenade and it reaches the opponent at Fsmash's nearly-max range, if they shield the grenade your Fsmash is safe because it's almost a true blockstring, if they roll towards you Fsmash punishes it, if they roll away your Fsmash is unpunished (probably with a few exceptions like Mac's DA/Pit's Side-B)

In general in that scenario I just jump in the air, rather than roll at all. Sometimes just hop to avoid that and not punish (if I'm expecting block instead of f-smash), sometimes just approach through the air and aerial. Shulk and Pikachu at least have f-airs that reach in this scenario (only two I have experience with vs. Gunner).

I'll try Grenade Launch as a space control tool some more. I'm kind of skeptical/reserved about this character. Seems like you can almost beat her on reaction. But with so many good opinions on her, I have to try in tournament at least once.

 

[NAKAT]

No point in using him over my Ness or Fox.

 

[NairWizard]

No point in using him over my Ness or Fox.

I'm sure that most people agree with the majority of things that you posted about Mario, but I think it's worth noting that the combos really aren't reliable (you can DI out of most of them), and so overall Mario's damage output is kind of poor since he does weak % per hit

That's probably why people think that he's bad.

 

[Yonder]

Idk how much this contributes to competitive discussion but...Falcon is by far, far far far and away, the most vsed character for me online. Yes, he trumps the amount of Macs, Greninjas, etc from what I've seen. Odd right?

Question is, why is he the most played online? [From my experience. Idk if others have a more particularly vsed character]. Then again, I think Falcon holds quite a easy to use to high tier ratio compared to other high/top tiers.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ NAKAT

Thank you for being real with me. No seriously. You have to realize that I value you taking the time to contribute your opinion in detail. You have to at least understand from my perspective, it makes me extremely frustrated when I don't understand why people believe what they do.

For now, I will accept Mario is seeing some competitive success. But are any high level players besides @KirinBlaze that really seriously use him? KirinBlaze is arguably THE best Mario and Link player from Brawl in NA, and I know he's realistically strong enough to body basically everyone on a good day, but I have only seen about two videos from him total in Smash 4, and no word from him on Smashboards recently. You say Ally is picking up Mario? By all means, I would want to see him play the character.

You have to realize I am very very tempted to say something snarky right now. But I won't, because in the end, I mostly wanted you to actually put effort in defending your stance. And even if I very obviously strongly disagree with it, I'll at least respect the effort.

Actually **** that. I refuse to say agree to disagree, but obviously, the thing that primarily matters to you are results. I won't deny they're important. Personally, I'm actually quite willing to let results prove themselves. We know the game is likely very balanced compared to others because of results (I mean...Ganondorf is placing in tournaments, and we know he still mostly sucks in neutral). I have my own predictions of how results will change in the future, but you and I know that's just speculation.

But seriously, I encourage you to contribute to discussions more. I'm much less angry about it when I see effort.

 

[Ffamran]

Idk how much this contributes to competitive discussion but...Falcon is by far, far far far and away, the most vsed character for me online. Yes, he trumps the amount of Macs, Greninjas, etc from what I've seen. Odd right?

Question is, why is he the most played online? [From my experience. Idk if others have a more particularly vsed character]. Then again, I think Falcon holds quite a easy to use to high tier ratio compared to other high/top tiers.

SSB4's is the Capt.'t comeback. Of course he's going to be played a lot by people who were disappointed by his performance in Brawl just like Ganondorf, Link, and Bowser. Captain Falcon hasn't been bad since Brawl so, he is one of the few (64 vets) who could have had a streak of being high tier in every Smash game while others barely scrape by maintaining their status. Most characters fluctuate from tier to tier like Mario, Zelda, Yoshi. Others end up staying in tiers and some just got out of being in low tiers like Link who was decent in Melee, but low tier in every other game.

Also, Captain Falcon is basically Bruce Lee of Smash with his iconic moves, quotes, and overall flamboyant awesomeness.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

aww i missed the big heavy character discussion.


but my to cents
to balance heavy or big frame characters would probably not be giving them more damage or combos. cosidering that ganon can get u to 40% in one.
since most heavys have great punish tools i would think they need simply better defense.
thats right DEFENSE. not offense. and the best way to do that? make there shields stronger as in take less sheild damage. shield stun, and no shield push so they cant slide out of what would be a crippling punish.

If heavys are gunna be combo bags. make them as intimidating as possible to try and combo. by making straight up attacking the least effective option in neutral.

edit* holy crap this is like the first time one of my opinons that was not a clever retort, joke or general consensus has been liked. Yay! people can agree mama!

 

[Emblem Lord]

Tiers are so distorted and skewed in this game. The fact that it's based off wins means nothing, especially in for glory mode where there are some characters that aren't even touched in the cast. Except for a small handful of ****ty characters, most of these characters are equals and it just comes down to player skill, stages, and matchups. My Shulk and my Villager have taken down a large amount of Shieks, ZSS, Rosalinas, and Lucarios. Put everything you got into your favorite characters from your favorite games and you'll win!

Gimme your keys, you are drunk.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm sure that most people agree with the majority of things that you posted about Mario, but I think it's worth noting that the combos really aren't reliable (you can DI out of most of them), and so overall Mario's damage output is kind of poor since he does weak % per hit

That's probably why people think that he's bad.

This.

Ironically the ones who think he's bad are the ones who main him. And honestly, I want to be proven wrong. Hell, I want to prove myself wrong by putting in the effort.

I will say Mario's U-Smash is actually pretty reliable. It's Mario's main kill move (until Explosive Punch is allowed in tourneys) and 120% isn't bad by any means. Getting a hard read for F-Smash also makes Mario's life a ton easier.

However his unreliable combos and low damage output per hit is a serious problem. His D-throw combos are not good, and he would much prefer for B-air, D-air and F-tilt to be utilized more frequently than U-tilt/D-throw/U-air. So I hesitate on agreeing that Mario is high tier, let alone top 7.

 

[adom4]

Ganon's standard grab game is actually very good. D-throw on most characters combos into DA for about 22 damage and more followups at low percents, and near the edge, D-throw is basically a 50/50 into death on a correct guess. F-throw is also great at 13 damage. I would kinda be really terrified if Ganondorf actually had good grab range, because Ganondorf actually has incredible potential from his throws.

I think it's fine that Ganon has poor grab range so that our game centers more around solid footsies to reach victory. At any rate, I believe Ganon's reward on grab is actually very good, so it's not totally unbalanced.

For a Falcon semi clone i really wish they gave him Falcon's dash grab.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I think Falcon is fine. He is one of the better mid tiers in the game and is maybe better than I think he is now. He's a character that people will impress us with in time, but he'll always have his inherent limitations, the same ones he had in Melee and Brawl. Brawl Falcon wasn't badly designed, overall. The game mechanics really just did not serve him well, he didn't need many changes to be good in Smash 4.

Straight up, sword characters got rekt on the design doc and it has done good things for the balance in this game. They aren't the only characters who had their hitboxes reeled in either (ZSS for one). Disjoints are just less prevalent and the balance of the game is better for it. Falcon is just one of the characters that benefits from that. Ness, Peach, and ROB all could theoretically perform much better here, but there are others too. Hell, I think even Samus is more competitive than she used to be mostly as a result of that. It's part of the reason I've never talked about Mario a lot... yeah he has obvious problems but I'm not sure his low range is as big of a deal as it used to be. Could be, not sure yet. He probably has the lowest effective range in the game, but then he's not being constantly and laglessly zoned by Marth and MK's bull**** either.

Swords are bad design and I say that as someone who played someone who was a sword character all but visually in a past installment. Putting the range of a character's normal attacks far out of the range of their vulnerable points and making all of the attacks low lag was never a good decision. The fact that Marth is still pretty decent after his severe nerfs and MK is potentially all right after his buffs in 1.0.4 really is a testament to just how powerful disjoints are on their own.

Now about Rosalina...

 

[Kofu]

So after playing an impressive Yoshi for a while tonight, I have to ask: does Yoshi have any inherent weaknesses? At all? The Dino's heavy without having an overly cumbersome frame, has the best airspeed in the game (unless that's been changed from Brawl, but at any rate it's extremely impressive), his moves generally come out quick and have good (better than they look like they should have) range, he deals heavy damage, he's got a command grab, a projectile that's difficult to powershield and can be aimed, and a shield that can't be shieldpoked. His grab also has more range than most, and his standing grab really doesn't appear to have much more lag on it than most (dash grab does though). His up-b doesn't give him much distance, but his second jump is better than Ness's and has armor. Even if you swat him away from the stage without his second jump, unless you knock him low he'll still probably make it back because his airspeed is just that good. Oh, and he has KO hit confirms.

As far as I can tell his only apparent weaknesses would be to quicker projectile spam or to being juggled, but even that's hard with his second jump. Supposedly his shield is weaker than most but I'm not totally sure that's the case (has this been proven?).

He doesn't have the stupid DThrow followups that Diddy has but as far as I can tell if any character comes close to Diddy in absurd combination of attributes and moves in this game, it's Yoshi.

I'm sure I'm overrating the character a bit but I really couldn't see any particular weaknesses when fighting this one guy. I played a bunch of matches and only won three: one with Bowser, one with Game & Watch, and one with Dedede where I somehow two-stocked him (I attribute that to lack of matchup knowledge, since my Dedede is nothing to write home about).

 

[Sinister Slush]

No actual UpB/easy to footstool if all he has left is eggs to recover so anybody with a decent spike or able to gimp (sheik) does well against him, his everything about his grabs are slow, especially the huge hit pivot grab got.
One of our main moves Bair has a lot of landing lag in favor of third hit being a ko and first two being a spike, but honestly I'd prefer a spammable move that we can end with Nair if we wanted too over a kill move.

Side-B still a useless move and egg toss gives only 2 hops now from the 5 brawl did, so anytime we use our new stable way to go into most MU's (short hop egg toss) and somehow get punished hard enough to be offstage, we'll have DJ only to hopefully get back without getting smacked in the nose and plummet to our deaths since even the second egg toss hop is pitiful.

Otherwise he doesn't have as much weaknesses because of shield being changed and everything about him from brawl stayed pretty much the same.

 

[meleebrawler]

So after playing an impressive Yoshi for a while tonight, I have to ask: does Yoshi have any inherent weaknesses? At all? The Dino's heavy without having an overly cumbersome frame, has the best airspeed in the game (unless that's been changed from Brawl, but at any rate it's extremely impressive), his moves generally come out quick and have good (better than they look like they should have) range, he deals heavy damage, he's got a command grab, a projectile that's difficult to powershield and can be aimed, and a shield that can't be shieldpoked. His grab also has more range than most, and his standing grab really doesn't appear to have much more lag on it than most (dash grab does though). His up-b doesn't give him much distance, but his second jump is better than Ness's and has armor. Even if you swat him away from the stage without his second jump, unless you knock him low he'll still probably make it back because his airspeed is just that good. Oh, and he has KO hit confirms.

As far as I can tell his only apparent weaknesses would be to quicker projectile spam or to being juggled, but even that's hard with his second jump. Supposedly his shield is weaker than most but I'm not totally sure that's the case (has this been proven?).

He doesn't have the stupid DThrow followups that Diddy has but as far as I can tell if any character comes close to Diddy in absurd combination of attributes and moves in this game, it's Yoshi.

I'm sure I'm overrating the character a bit but I really couldn't see any particular weaknesses when fighting this one guy. I played a bunch of matches and only won three: one with Bowser, one with Game & Watch, and one with Dedede where I somehow two-stocked him (I attribute that to lack of matchup knowledge, since my Dedede is nothing to write home about).

Yoshi is lighter in this game, so I would say he's a middleweight now.

His roll is fairly slow and easy to follow (this coupled with inability
to jump out of shield crippled him in past games).

Despite his great second jump, Yoshi's recovery is rather
predictable once you get used to eggs being thrown at
your face in the process of his jumps. Double-jumping
to a ledge is more difficult in this game since they don't snap
as well as recovery oves.

 

[Sinister Slush]

If you main Yoshi you learn to never roll, brawl was just spotdodge everything since we thankfully had one of the legendary spotdodges like link falco and I think ROB. For Smash 4 we still have that spotdodge I'm sure + OoS options now.