Character Competitive Impressions

[Tagxy]

Zelda is hard to edgeguard as pika as an initial impression and probably vs other people who edgeguard, as compare to sheik. There may turn out to be ways to better optimize edgeguarding tough, perhaps through ledge trumping.

Also this was based on an initial impression but I feel Lucina may be underrated in some MUs as compared to marth. In some matches recently I realize how much I rely on not getting tippered vs Marth to get in, as its notably more risky to try and rush in on Lucina and lose the exchange if youre a rush in type character. Ill see if I can figure this out more.

 

[KenMeister]

So, I know we're talking about Zelda/ Sheik atm, and that's cool. But I'd like to bring up something.
It's pretty awesome how everyone has viewed Paletuna as a bottom tier character, but with implementation of custom special moves, she's undeniably high tier now, because her defaults suck, but can be replaced. Because of this, I feel like I should bring up a character with similar problems.

Kirby.

Kirby in my honest opinion has always had the worst specials in the entire series, to the point of where players always ignored them, and I feel they always held back because his normal moves never did enough to help with approaching or getting past camping. So with that in mind, how would Kirby do with customs? I haven't unlocked them, but does anyone have solid knowledge of his custom specials to see whether or not they're actually helpful. Because if Olimar got fixed in the WiiU version like everyone speculated, then I honestly see Kirby as a contender for the worst character in the game. He's not as bad as he was in Melee, but I feel everyone kinda outperforms him this time around, especially since 70% of the roster doesn't suck nearly as much as they did in Brawl.

Oops, double post.

 

[warriorman222]

Kirby gets a lot better with customs, but he isn't going anywhere much though.

 

[Chuva]

Of the really good characters, I feel like she primarily just has it noticeably hard against Sonic, Little Mac, and Peach. Everyone else she's pretty competent against.

I'd add Pit too. His buttons are simply better than hers, both on ground and in the air.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

So, I know we're talking about Zelda/ Sheik atm, and that's cool. But I'd like to bring up something.
It's pretty awesome how everyone has viewed Paletuna as a bottom tier character, but with implementation of custom special moves, she's undeniably high tier now, because her defaults suck, but can be replaced. Because of this, I feel like I should bring up a character with similar problems.

Kirby.

Kirby in my honest opinion has always had the worst specials in the entire series, to the point of where players always ignored them, and I feel they always held back because his normal moves never did enough to help with approaching or getting past camping. So with that in mind, how would Kirby do with customs? I haven't unlocked them, but does anyone have solid knowledge of his custom specials to see whether or not they're actually helpful. Because if Olimar got fixed in the WiiU version like everyone speculated, then I honestly see Kirby as a contender for the worst character in the game. He's not as bad as he was in Melee, but I feel everyone kinda outperforms him this time around, especially since 70% of the roster doesn't suck nearly as much as they did in Brawl.

Oops, double post.

He wants to change basically all of his moves except maybe Stone with Customs.
Leaping inhale is practically a straight buff.
Hammer Bash >Flip unless you get a shieldbreak which is only feasible really in Lucina/Marth matchup.
Upper/Wave Cutter > Final Cutter.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Mr. ConCon entered our /r/smashbros tournament tonight. Watching his Luigi has seriously made me wonder if he's being slept on possibly. The things you can do, the strings you can get it's nuts. Once he's in you expect to get comboed HARD. Plus that slippy slidey bro can just weave and punish so well. I'll try to make sure some footage and such gets over here for people to look at. It's really impressive.

 

[PK Gaming]

People are really sleeping on Wario

That character is really solid, even if he doesn't have the tournament results to show it

 

[Rich Homie Quan]

Why does Marth feel even more neutered in the Wii U version

I feel like I've got to re-learn everything

But damn, his punishes are so rewarding. A tipped F-smash kills at incredibly low percents. Pretty confident in him being middle of high tier / bottom of the list of competitively viable characters.

Also, Falco is being slept on like crazy. So many awesome movestrings. This guy is a better boxer than lil Mac

 

[NairWizard]

Passing observation: I think that as a general trend Pikachu gets much weaker with customs on because most characters get at least one better recovery option in their custom up-bs that make it harder for Pikachu to edgeguard them. Guys like Ike, Ganon, Bowser, etc. that Pikachu can ordinarily harass offstage to some extent get aerial mobility options that circumvent Pikachu's edgeguarding tactics. Pikachu himself also gets better with customs on, but it's by less.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

I think ive heard every character but Olimar and Mii swordsman is "slept on" at this point.

 

[NairWizard]

I think ive heard every character but Olimar and Mii swordsman is "slept on" at this point.

People are really sleeping on Olimar, imo. This character....[insert points about Olimar's good qualities in a vacuum here, without comparing to any other characters or discussing matchups at all].

Mii Swordsman is on his own.

 

[Chuva]

I think we can all agree no one thinks Kirby is being slept on

 

[RoseyBetch]

I'm trying to learn competitive play and I love Rosalina. She was my most wanted newcomer. I know she's considered to be good, but can anyone pinpoint her strong points and weak points that aren't as apparent to someone newer like me?

 

[Spirst]

People are really sleeping on Olimar, imo. This character....[insert points about Olimar's good qualities in a vacuum here, without comparing to any other characters or discussing matchups at all].

Mii Swordsman is on his own.

No, Mii Swordsman is being slept on. He has a sword and a recovery and can do some attacks. He even has specials and a shield.

 

[TehNub]

No, Mii Swordsman is being slept on. He has a sword and a recovery and can do some attacks. He even has specials and a shield.

I think he can jump too. Haven't tested it yet, but I've seen some people pull it off.

 

[warriorman222]

I think he can jump too. Haven't tested it yet, but I've seen some people pull it off.

WHOA WAIT A SECOND HE CAN JUMP!?!??! I heard someone say he could grab, but that was outrageous enough. But you know what? I managed to make him do a Smash Attack!
I am officially pro.

 

[NairWizard]

I think we can all agree no one thinks Kirby is being slept on

Dude, Kirby would make the most comfortable pillow ever, if a little awkward given that he's, you know, alive and all.

 

[Shaya]

Enough.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think ive heard every character but Olimar and Mii swordsman is "slept on" at this point.

Olimar and Mii swordsman are being slept on.

But in all seriousness I lambasted Olimar a few pages back. Never tried Mii Sowrds so no comment.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I think Kirby is great in this game. I think he should be mid-tier at least. Not sure why so many people think he's bad.

 

[Shaya]

Probably because being bad in this game is about not being exceptional, which several (actually: MOST) characters are to varying degrees.
What's special about Kirby? What amazing things are they capable of?

This is a rhetorical question.

 

[Chuva]

So, Pikachu...

Thunder's becoming as much of a headache for me as QA shenanigans/edgeguard of doom. Thanks to the cloud appearing in the first frames of the Thunder start-up animation, it will come out without Pikachu having to commit at all (he won't even scream "PIKAAA!"). Been playing with a local Pikachu this night and there were a lot of times where I'd hit him and out of nowhere got hit by Thunder luma-style, interrupting whatever string I was doing as follow-up or grab. It can be even more problematic when the camera is focusing the stage's ground level, because you probably won't see Thunder's cloud appearing above and thus can't react properly.

Basically a free vertical hitbox for when he's in a disadvantageous situation (although kinda risky for him in case the Thunder is not interrupted on start-up, since he will then commit to the whole animation and become more punishable), as if the rat needed more tools to reset to neutral.

 

[Radical Larry]

People are really sleeping on Wario

That character is really solid, even if he doesn't have the tournament results to show it

Sadly, the same happens with most characters; just because the tournament results don't show certain characters winning, doesn't mean they are bad. I mean, in the long run, we could end up seeing Diddy Kong as a high tier, and Sonic as a high tier as well, when time progresses for the game.

 

[Emblem Lord]

i dont want anyone even playing marth anymore. marths are actually doing well in tournies. relax guys. before he gets nerfed for no reason.

let sakurai focus on diddy lol.

 

[Ffamran]

Probably because being bad in this game is about not being exceptional, which several (actually: MOST) characters are to varying degrees.
What's special about Kirby? What amazing things are they capable of?

This is a rhetorical question.

Kirby's a he... Just saying.

Unless we're talking about Kirby players or Kirby's species which includes Keeby and, probably, Meta Knight, then ignore me...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sadly, the same happens with most characters; just because the tournament results don't show certain characters winning, doesn't mean they are bad. I mean, in the long run, we could end up seeing Diddy Kong as a high tier, and Sonic as a high tier as well, when time progresses for the game.

i dont want anyone even playing marth anymore. marths are actually doing well in tournies. relax guys. before he gets nerfed for no reason.

let sakurai focus on diddy lol.

Ideally Sakurai & Co allow the meta to settle to some extent before doing anything. If change is too constant it'll be problematic in general.
Given his talk on little mac he seems conservative, maybe he wont do anything until Mewtwo & Isaac

Plus Shulk > Marth so he's safe.

 

[NairWizard]

& Isaac.

Gosh, that's a funny way to spell Fiora.

Diddy Kong will more than likely be nerfed I think. More people on For Glory will pick him up and actually use him once they see that he's dominating in tournament.

 

[Radical Larry]

Regarding Little Mac, he seems as if he's a mid-tier character, because he has very, very exploitable things against him. Sadly, because of his pitiful air game, and the 1.0.4 nerf of his recovery, he seems like a mid-tier. Sure, he has his Smash attacks, but they can be dodged and/or beaten by waiting.

As things develop, I'm sure Little Mac will be at the correct placement around mid-tier.
And let's not forget his grab game at mid-to-high percents is just as piss poor as his recovery and aerial game.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I don't get marth anymore. In Brawl, I had a decent pocket Marth because he and ZSS felt similar in strategy to play... he was a secondary of mine. Marth is so laggy and weird now that I don't even know where to begin setting stuff up or in neutral position.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

So, Pikachu...

Thunder's becoming as much of a headache for me as QA shenanigans/edgeguard of doom. Thanks to the cloud appearing in the first frames of the Thunder start-up animation, it will come out without Pikachu having to commit at all (he won't even scream "PIKAAA!"). Been playing with a local Pikachu this night and there were a lot of times where I'd hit him and out of nowhere got hit by Thunder luma-style, interrupting whatever string I was doing as follow-up or grab. It can be even more problematic when the camera is focusing the stage's ground level, because you probably won't see Thunder's cloud appearing above and thus can't react properly.

Basically a free vertical hitbox for when he's in a disadvantageous situation (although kinda risky for him in case the Thunder is not interrupted on start-up, since he will then commit to the whole animation and become more punishable), as if the rat needed more tools to reset to neutral.

Considering how bad he is at actually playing through disadvantageous situations unless he somehow returns it to neutral, it's not that much of an issue, I think. Also he gets KO'd so quickly compared even to characters who are barely lighter than he is, while his KOs can end up happening very lately.

The Pika you played was likely pretty skilled, because in order to do well with Pikachu in 4, you have to be able to put in much more effort than most other characters to get the win. Not saying Pika is a bad character, because he has every tool he needs to be a good one. He's very good, actually. However he's a character who needs much more effort to get results than, say, Rosalina and Luma.

 

[Conda]

I think ive heard every character but Olimar and Mii swordsman is "slept on" at this point.

A lot of action going on.

I think Kirby is great in this game. I think he should be mid-tier at least. Not sure why so many people think he's bad.

It's not about him being bad, it's about how many other characters - or what % of the roster - is better than him.

 

[Thinkaman]

Aw man, I missed the window of opportunity to make a Rest joke.

 

[Shaya]

I don't get marth anymore. In Brawl, I had a decent pocket Marth because he and ZSS felt similar in strategy to play... he was a secondary of mine. Marth is so laggy and weird now that I don't even know where to begin setting stuff up or in neutral position.

Pray for the auto cancels from Sakurai ala Ike next patch.
You can play without it fine enough, but some small edge/quality of life buffs would probably eradicate most of those feels.

 

[MachoCheeze]

double post on accident

Even though he's gotten a little recognition I feel Pac is being a bit slept on. The tricks he can pull off are incredibly ridiculous.

I z-dropped a Cherry, f-tilted a Zero Suit Samaus into it, the cherry knocked her back at me, f-tilted her again into the cherry, and then side smashed when the cherry sent her my way again.

Like... son.

EDIT: One thing he'll struggle with though is the Diddy Kong MU. Pac just has a hard time with Diddy's mobility and the hydrant doesn't seem to grant him stage control over Diddy at all. I guess the best way to counter the little monkey is to gimp him off stage early?

 

[Tagxy]

I love marth and will probably use him quite a bit in smash 4. However I shed no tears for his current position, mostly out of fear that the wrong buff could easily turn him into a character that invalidates most of the cast again, even if he still has tough MUs among the better members of the cast. Maybe thats an irrational fear, but Id need to be coaxed that any buff Marth might recieve wouldnt lead to that. I also wonder is he really in need of improvement? Or has he just not been fully developed yet.

 

[Shaya]

Okay, I've figured out the optimal discourse tier list for this thread.


Diddy Kong Tier


Dumb Tier


Struggles in the Diddy Match Up Probably Tier


Getting Slept On Tier

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Pray for the auto cancels from Sakurai ala Ike next patch.
You can play without it fine enough, but some small edge/quality of life buffs would probably eradicate most of those feels.

The nerfs to Marth in smash 4 from brawl were completely unwarranted. Marth was just above average in Brawl to begin with, he was completely fair and well-balanced and there was no reason to change how he worked, especially when the change was such a core tool to begin with. It's like hey, this move that was probably the only reason this character works at high levels at all? Let's nerf it. bleh

 

[Nocally]

Okay, I've figured out the optimal discourse tier list for this thread.


Diddy Kong Tier


Dumb Tier


Struggles in the Diddy Match Up Probably Tier


Getting Slept On Tier

seems like fox is getting slept on a lot. I have a question though, what is the specific differences between "Dumb Tier" and "struggles with Diddy Tier" except the obvious match up against diddy, and does Dumb tier equal Top/high tier? (I do know this list is mostly for fun regarding the names and all, I'm just curious).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I wouldn't say Marth is fair and balanced in Brawl or even Melee.

But they did hit him with the nerf bat right where he was best.

 

[Shaya]

I love marth and will probably use him quite a bit in smash 4. However I shed no tears for his current position, mostly out of fear that the wrong buff could easily turn him into a character that invalidates most of the cast again, even if he still has tough MUs among the better members of the cast. I also wonder is he really in need of improvement? Or has he just not been fully developed yet.

He never invalidated anyone by himself tbh, beyond the silly grab release/oversight stuff.
Right now what it feels as if its just 'harder' to do things compared to other characters, most characters can sh auto cancel aerials with multi/longer lasting hitboxes or sh rising ff aerials with auto cancels. Marth doesn't; neutral air auto cancels frame 44 and it ends on 21, fair has no auto cancel, uair/bair auto cancel with just minute alterations of timing on rising aerials. It feels like a very very odd limiting to the character that hurts just about everyone's first impressions on how to use the character well. Everyone says the same thing "clunky" "slow", and I know fully well how to work around them, and at the same time I know some 4-5 frame differences here and there on ACs will hence time out well/properly with many use cases.

But I don't think he deserves structural buffs like say Ike got, he's close to being "just right" without being dominating or underwhelming.

Marth's short hop is 41 frames in length.
His aerials are basically all the same frame data, fair is only 3 frames laggier on ending; it's just there's less time in his jump than in Brawl/melee. If he stayed in the air for literally 1 frame longer he'd have fair -> uair and be in a completely different boat in terms of capabilities I'd say, 2 frames and it's double fair again. There's purposeful limiting here.
His Sh FF is 24 frames. His bair auto cancels on 32, up air on 38. Nair I suppose is designed to be easily timed into a sh rising -> ff with minimal 'down time' but it's still a 3 frame down time. Honestly, in comparison to Brawl (throughout the entire game, not just Marth) Marth's auto cancels do not make sense nor flow. In nearly all cases, Brawl characters had meaningful timings with their aerials auto cancels that owed themselves to learning the timing/best use cases.

(Like MK can sh ff fair that auto cancels in such a way that he can use it in between falco's shdl and land into shield fine, covering the side-b and not overly exposing himself to laser damage [ZeRo's way of playing the matchup]).