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Character Competitive Impressions

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Iron Kraken

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It's so hard for me to believe that Ganondorf is actually good in this game because I've played tons of them and have never run into one that gave me much trouble, but I suppose it's possible that I just haven't played any real good Ganondorfs, or that Rosalina is a really bad match up for him.

Like, King Dedede gives me much more trouble, and I don't consider Dedede to be top tier or anything.
 
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Terotrous

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It's so hard for me to believe that Ganondorf is actually good in this game because I've played tons of them and have never run into one that gave me much trouble
Ehh, you can't decide things based on For Glory. If you could, Little Mac and Toon Link would be bottom tier (seriously, has anyone ever fought a Toon Link that didn't just Dair over and over?). Also, I suspect Rosa vs Ganon is likely pretty heavily in Rosa's favour.

That being said, I doubt Ganon is great. The fact that you can tech flame choke is so stupid. How did they not fix that?
 
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Iron Kraken

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Ehh, you can't decide things based on For Glory. If you could, Little Mac and Toon Link would be bottom tier (seriously, has anyone ever fought a Toon Link that didn't just Dair over and over?). Also, I suspect Rosa vs Ganon is likely pretty heavily in Rosa's favour.

That being said, I doubt Ganon is great. The fact that you can tech flame choke is so stupid. How did they not fix that?
There are a lot of bad opponents in For Glory, don't get me wrong, but you also run into some good competition if you keep on playing. It's not that hard to tell the difference between someone who knows what they're doing and someone who doesn't. I'm judging this based on Ganondorfs who clearly know what they're doing. In any case I've played Ganondorfs off of For Glory as well, such as on Anther's Ladder and on Twitch streams.

And based on my experience Ganondorf either seems like one of the weaker characters in the game or he has a horrendous match up with Rosalina.

Okay, in fairness I'm pretty certain his match up with Rosalina is definitely horrendous. Rosalina's attacks seem to be faster, with more priority, and better range. And there's Luma. If Ganondorf gets a hit in it hurts to all hell, but it's so hard for Ganondorf to get a hit in.
 
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TsuKiyoMe

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All these people putting Palutena in High Tier... brings a tear to my eye.

Thank you for noticing she's not horrible and actually has really good tools.
 

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Well yes, with customs on she's a monster. I can't see her worse than mid without them but obviously customs on gives her a plethora of options. Although I think her name should still be Super Speed.

It's so hard for me to believe that Ganondorf is actually good in this game because I've played tons of them and have never run into one that gave me much trouble, but I suppose it's possible that I just haven't played any real good Ganondorfs, or that Rosalina is a really bad match up for him.

Like, King Dedede gives me much more trouble, and I don't consider Dedede to be top tier or anything.
I handle Rosalinas when I play Ganon in a very interesting way. Always swat away Luma if he gets close (Ganon has range to do this) and then play full ham offense since that's the only way to capitalize. Matchup is def in Rosalina's favor but Ganon can definitely hold his own here. With Customs on I think Ganon gets even better, he's actually decent in this game!
 
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Terotrous

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There are a lot of bad opponents in For Glory, don't get me wrong, but you also run into some good competition if you keep on playing. It's not that hard to tell the difference between someone who knows what they're doing and someone who doesn't.
Oh, sure, but they're rare. I played a clearly good Fox on For Glory this morning. However, for every good player I play against there's like 20 terrible ones. There are also a number of characters where I've never fought a good one on FG.


I'm judging this based on Ganondorfs who clearly know what they're doing. In any case I've played Ganondorfs off of For Glory as well, such as on Anther's Ladder and on Twitch streams.

And based on my experience Ganondorf either seems like one of the weaker characters in the game or he has a horrendous match up with Rosalina.
Fair enough. I do think that matchup looks quite bad. Trying to get in on a character who great priority and can put up a solid wall? As a character who lacks mobility and is generally pretty punishable on most moves? Good luck.
 

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Ganon vs. Rosalina changes entirely when Ganondorf puts on the Wizard's Dropkick.

I know everyone says this move is really good and it's probably tiresome, but it really does help him approach a lot better. He leaps over and either trades with or beats a lot of physical attacks, and it's fast as hell. It can change entire MUs for Ganon, IMO.

Without customs? I'd argue it's 6:4 Rosa's favor AT LEAST, probably a bit better when Ganon puts on optimal customs.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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Ehh, you can't decide things based on For Glory. If you could, Little Mac and Toon Link would be bottom tier (seriously, has anyone ever fought a Toon Link that didn't just Dair over and over?). Also, I suspect Rosa vs Ganon is likely pretty heavily in Rosa's favour.

That being said, I doubt Ganon is great. The fact that you can tech flame choke is so stupid. How did they not fix that?
I've faced a few good Toon Links, they're really hard to deal with when they know how to properly follow up their projectile hits.

Can Ganondorf at least tech chase after Flame Choke?
 

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I've faced a few good Toon Links, they're really hard to deal with when they know how to properly follow up their projectile hits.

Can Ganondorf at least tech chase after Flame Choke?
Ganondorf can shield if you tech Flame Choke, or run away and pivot tilt if you're slow on reaction. If you tech and roll away he can choke and chase, and basically reset it. It's kind of like a vortex, I'm positive that no matter what the opponent does, Ganondorf has a workable option for it depending on their roll.

My chart is a little like

If they tech - Shield
If they tech away - Choke in that direction (prediction)
If they delay getup to mix it up - Dtilt
If they roll away - Choke in predicted direction.
 
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A2ZOMG

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I've faced a few good Toon Links, they're really hard to deal with when they know how to properly follow up their projectile hits.

Can Ganondorf at least tech chase after Flame Choke?
He's at the same frame advantage for tech in place (so all tilt followups on the appropriate characters still work not to mention standing grab), and he's at enough of a frame advantage to F-smash inward techrolls. I do not believe he can reliably punish away techrolls except in very specific matchups.
 
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Terotrous

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He's at the same frame advantage for tech in place (so all tilt followups on the appropriate characters still work not to mention standing grab), and he's at enough of a frame advantage to F-smash inward techrolls. I do not believe he can reliably punish away techrolls except in very specific matchups.
Yeah, I was going to post that I believe teching backwards is a free escape. Flame choke isn't fast enough to chase it.


I've faced a few good Toon Links, they're really hard to deal with when they know how to properly follow up their projectile hits.
Lol, what projectiles? Dair is the only move a true Toon Link needs!


Actually, I feel like I taught a Toon Link player a valuable lesson today. After I punished his Dair the first 15 times he actually stopped doing it and actually brought things back to some extent. Then he switched to Greninja and spammed Dair with him and I 2-stocked him, lol. Maybe he didn't learn after all.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Ganon vs. Rosalina changes entirely when Ganondorf puts on the Wizard's Dropkick.

I know everyone says this move is really good and it's probably tiresome, but it really does help him approach a lot better. He leaps over and either trades with or beats a lot of physical attacks, and it's fast as hell. It can change entire MUs for Ganon, IMO.

Without customs? I'd argue it's 6:4 Rosa's favor AT LEAST, probably a bit better when Ganon puts on optimal customs.
I'd probably guess it's 7:3 Rosa without customs, 6:4 with. This would be so much easier if Ganon still got DACUS.
 

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Yeah, I was going to post that I believe teching backwards is a free escape. Flame choke isn't fast enough to chase it.
Yeah, after some experimentation that is the only kind of tech that puts you at an advantage (really it slaps it back into neutral) so no, teching really doesn't kill Flame Choke all that much.

What DOES hurt it is the fact that grabs can trade with normals in this game.

I'd probably guess it's 7:3 Rosa without customs, 6:4 with. This would be so much easier if Ganon still got DACUS.
I'm in agreement with this statement. That's about right.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Yeah, I was going to post that I believe teching backwards is a free escape. Flame choke isn't fast enough to chase it.
I think buffered Wizkick/dropkick probably works, but that's it.

You don't get anything out of teched aerial Flame Choke in contrast because it's much laggier.

I'd probably guess it's 7:3 Rosa without customs, 6:4 with. This would be so much easier if Ganon still got DACUS.
I disagree. The Luma nerf is very significant in this matchup. Also DACUS is not super practical against Rosalina anyway who has projectile options you have to respect.
 
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Terotrous

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Everything about Flame Choke just makes me salty to be honest. Couldn't they just take the PM thing where Aerial Flame Choke gets you a free Ftilt? It's not like that made him a broken character or anything.
 

A2ZOMG

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Everything about Flame Choke just makes me salty to be honest. Couldn't they just take the PM thing where Aerial Flame Choke gets you a free Ftilt? It's not like that made him a broken character or anything.
It's not that bad. People DO miss techs due to y'know, shielding. And Flame Choke itself does 12 damage on the grounded version, about 15 damage on the aerial version. By itself it's a very rewarding non KO move and it puts you in a favorable position.
 
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TTTTTsd

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Everything about Flame Choke just makes me salty to be honest. Couldn't they just take the PM thing where Aerial Flame Choke gets you a free Ftilt? It's not like that made him a broken character or anything.
A free Ftilt in this game would be a free kill. I do agree that aerial choke should be normalized for sure but I think the most they should allow is a jab out of it. Ftilt would be quite a stretch IMO (not that I'd mind if they did it!)
 

Terotrous

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A free Ftilt in this game would be a free kill. I do agree that aerial choke should be normalized for sure but I think the most they should allow is a jab out of it. Ftilt would be quite a stretch IMO (not that I'd mind if they did it!)
Well it's not "free" because you have to land aerial flame choke first, which is arguably harder to land than FTilt. It's certainly much more punishable if it whiffs.
 
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New_Dumal

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The truth is that Ganon is not that bad anymore.
I'm not saying he is a great character, but I'm sure he is not close to be the worst of the cast.
So, in this game physic, it's very dangerous too continue giving buffs to Ganon.
Flame Choke already gives much damage. Jab until some % should link, true... life is unfair.
This flameChock->FTilt thing could probably make he become a high tier.
It's a "free kill", as TTTTTTsd said.Heavier/stronger characters are much stronger this time around.
 

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Well it's not "free" because you have to land aerial flame choke first, which is arguably harder to land than FTilt. It's certainly much more punishable if it whiffs.
Comparing it to P:M aerial choke is a lot easier here though. A lot of the characters in this game are comparatively slower, and the Choke in P:M, while faster, isn't super fast. You get more reward as it's a lot riskier to whiff with in P:M than it is here due to combos and general other things (the punish game in particular, as well as offensive followups, are pound for pound stronger in P:M). The meta is vastly different which is why I suggest jab instead. I don't think free Ftilt would be super broken but I think it would be pretty excessive.
 
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ChronoPenguin

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I want to spend a week with mii swordsman but exam time approaches. His aerials are fairly good look at his Nair relative to the Links. I wonder if its better in general to have a cape or counter. You can gimp obviously with his cape and projectile reflect. I'm leaning towards that. Plus it sets him apart from the Links, more then a counter does.
As for Mii-S vs Links. Despite semi similar projectiles the ability to reflect should deteriorate some of that advantage. Aerial range is similar if not better for the Mii.
I think there is potential here just not on the level of mii gunner and brawler. Neutral isn't bad given his options relative to a fair amount of the cast.

I'll theory craft right now but does Gravitational pull even affect chakram?
It looks like he has combo or atleast followup potential off a d-throw or heavy u-throw.
Shulk feels like an easy lower high-tier to me. Speed state has almost no downside now and really lets Shulk tack-on an early percent lead to abuse Buster state later rather safely then use either Smash or another Speed from there for a KO. Seems to be the bread & butter strategy right now. He doesn't have quite the combo-potential some of the better characters have but his huge hitboxes, solid damage, and blinding speed in Speed state more than make up for hit shortcomings. Hell hath no fury like a Speed state Shulk F-Air assault.

Not looking forward to running into Shulk in tourney anymore but I'm really feeling these buffs. He definitely needed them.
Preach. Speed Monado is too good now.
 
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Terotrous

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Comparing it to P:M aerial choke is a lot easier here though. A lot of the characters in this game are comparatively slower, and the Choke in P:M, while faster, isn't super fast. You get more reward as it's a lot riskier to whiff with in P:M than it is here due to combos and general other things (the punish game in particular, as well as offensive followups, are pound for pound stronger in P:M). The meta is vastly different which is why I suggest jab instead. I don't think free Ftilt would be super broken but I think it would be pretty excessive.
Eh, honestly I think it would be fine. Ganon is the closest this thing has to a Zangief. He has to work super hard to get in, but when he gets in you should be terrified because he has many good options and all of them hurt like hell. While I would consider a command grab sequence that does like 35% damage and kills at low percentages to be insane for any other character, for him I think it's generally in line with his character archetype. It's worth noting that aerial flame choke is still a pretty hard read as it can be punished quite hard if it misses.

I also definitely feel he should be able to convert a grab to a kill one way or another, just so you have to be worried about more options.
 
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A2ZOMG

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Honestly...while Flame Choke SHOULDN'T be techable, it doesn't really kill Ganon's game for it to be that way.

Eh, honestly I think it would be fine. Ganon is the closest this thing has to a Zangief. He has to work super hard to get in, but when he gets in you should be terrified because he has many good options and all of them hurt like hell. While I would consider a command grab sequence that does like 35% damage and kills at low percentages to be insane for any other character, for him I think it's generally in line with his character archetype.

I also definitely feel he should be able to convert a grab to a kill one way or another, just so you have to be worried about more options.
Bowser is MUCH more comparable to USF4 Zangief. Highly footsies oriented grappler with safe and highly damaging normals that pressure people well on the defensive.

Ganondorf is more like USF4 Hugo. Situational in neutral, but has a lot of moves that are great for punishes and is by far the scariest character in the game when you are cornered.
 
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Terotrous

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Bowser is MUCH more comparable to USF4 Zangief. Highly footsies oriented grappler with safe and highly damaging normals that pressure people well on the defensive.

Ganondorf is more like USF4 Hugo. Situational in neutral, but has a lot of moves that are great for punishes and is by far the scariest character in the game when you are cornered.
I agree, Zangief is much more about footsies now while Hugo is "prepare to guess between grounded grab and anti air grab over and over", but no one who doesn't play SF knows who Hugo is.
 

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Although I think Ganon is a lot less like Hugo when you factor in customs to some extent, but as far as default movesets go, that's a very valid and solid comparison.
 

A2ZOMG

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Although I think Ganon is a lot less like Hugo when you factor in customs to some extent, but as far as default movesets go, that's a very valid and solid comparison.
I think just for the most part, I have the same amount of fun watching Hugo as I do Ganondorf. Both characters do manly grappler cries of pain 80% of the time they're out due to being punching bags in neutral, and then finally when they do find a way to get in, everyone is painfully reminded why nobody should dare to get disrespectful in their presence.

I mean, getting cornered by Hugo is like getting edgeguarded by Ganondorf. Mere mortals need not attempt surviving the wrath of gods.

As for Rosalina vs Ganondorf, I honestly don't believe it is worse than 6/4 on default settings, and rather it's likely to be closer than that. Once Ganondorf swats Luma, the sheer risk/reward ratio is really blatantly in his favor considering how tall and lightweight Rosalina is. Ganondorf's buffed N-air and nerfs to Luma is especially non-trivial in this matchup.
 
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LiteralGrill

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But I also feel as if Ganondorf is highly underestimated, as I can easily body an opponent with him competitively.
It's so hard for me to believe that Ganondorf is actually good in this game because I've played tons of them and have never run into one that gave me much trouble, but I suppose it's possible that I just haven't played any real good Ganondorfs, or that Rosalina is a really bad match up for him./quote]

We've had a Ganon player break top 8 twice now at an /r/smashbros tournament, getting 3rd in one of them. Ganon has some potential in my eyes. Watching some of the matches has been incredible! Maybe I can try to get them into the thread to talk Ganon with everyone.
 

Iron Kraken

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I want to have the opportunity to play a really good Ganondorf then. My experience is that it's not that hard for Ganondorf to swat Luma away, but every time he does it's a free punish for Rosalina. I'll take 13 Luma-less seconds for a free punish every single time. Keep in mind that in 1.0.3 separating Luma from Rosalina was a terrible option, but now in 1.0.4 it's a fantastic option because Rosalina is right within punish distance if someone tries to hit Luma.

Then the other thing is that when Luma is off the stage, I notice that opponents pretty much always tend to get overaggressive because they want to capitalize on their 13 seconds. Overaggressiveness can be taken advantage of. And frankly if they're not overaggressive then it's not that hard for Rosalina to play evasively until Luma gets back. Either way Rosalina isn't really in all that bad of a spot.

Anyway, this is just my experience. I've played something like 2500 matches in total now and I know I've played against plenty of opponents who are more skilled than I am, I'm not all that great or anything. But I have probably played 100 different Ganondorfs already and I have yet to play 1 that made me think Rosalina doesn't have a heavy advantage in that match up.
 
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TTTTTsd

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You could try me tonight. I mean, I'm average but maybe I'm better than the 100 different dorfs you fought? I ain't free till the PM though, class and stuff. Anything to get the ball rolling!
 
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Iron Kraken

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You could try me tonight. I mean, I'm average but maybe I'm better than the 100 different dorfs you fought? I ain't free till the PM though, class and stuff. Anything to get the ball rolling!
Yeah sounds good. I fully expect to lose though. :p
 

NairWizard

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It's so hard for me to believe that Ganondorf is actually good in this game because I've played tons of them and have never run into one that gave me much trouble, but I suppose it's possible that I just haven't played any real good Ganondorfs, or that Rosalina is a really bad match up for him.
Ganondorf is not great, but he's not bad enough that there isn't a single Ganondorf out there that will give you any trouble. The characters are balanced enough in this game that, unless you are the very top of competitive-level play (which no one in this thread is save for Nakat, Dabuz, and Nairo), there will always be a main of an arbitrary character X who will be better than you and own you, often even if character X isn't that good. Example, Shaya is a tournament-level Marth, but he lost to Tyrant's Captain Falcon in Brawl. Captain Falcon is awful in that game, but Tyrant knows Marth and is the better Brawl player.

So, I'd wager to say that if you haven't fought any Ganondorfs that have given you trouble, then you haven't fought a Ganondorf that's above your skill level yet and knows the Rosalina match-up better than you do. I don't claim to know what your skill level is, but this applies to all skill levels except the very top, which is what tier lists are ultimately decided on. When we're judging characters, as difficult as it is, we should try to see the potential of characters at the very top and judge based on options rather than matchup experiences (or at least we should try to come to conclusions about options from matchup experiences--what could we have done better here, or what could the Ganondorf have done better, and how would that have changed the results, etc.). I'm guilty of being biased based on my own mental blocks against certain characters (Jigglypuff) in determining matchup ratios, but I can admit that that's a bad idea and I try to be objective whenever I can, as I know that I'm not the best (yet) and people can use my characters and my opponent's characters at a level beyond what I'm currently fighting.

tl;dr: you probably haven't faced a good Ganondorf, he's not bad.
 

The Real Gamer

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If anyone wants to play a good Charizard hit me up. ;D

Going to be interesting to see how well I'm able to control my character with a proper controller soon.
 

Iron Kraken

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Ganondorf is not great, but he's not bad enough that there isn't a single Ganondorf out there that will give you any trouble. The characters are balanced enough in this game that, unless you are the very top of competitive-level play (which no one in this thread is save for Nakat, Dabuz, and Nairo), there will always be a main of an arbitrary character X who will be better than you and own you, often even if character X isn't that good. Example, Shaya is a tournament-level Marth, but he lost to Tyrant's Captain Falcon in Brawl. Captain Falcon is awful in that game, but Tyrant knows Marth and is the better Brawl player.

So, I'd wager to say that if you haven't fought any Ganondorfs that have given you trouble, then you haven't fought a Ganondorf that's above your skill level yet and knows the Rosalina match-up better than you do. I don't claim to know what your skill level is, but this applies to all skill levels except the very top, which is what tier lists are ultimately decided on. When we're judging characters, as difficult as it is, we should try to see the potential of characters at the very top and judge based on options rather than matchup experiences (or at least we should try to come to conclusions about options from matchup experiences--what could we have done better here, or what could the Ganondorf have done better, and how would that have changed the results, etc.). I'm guilty of being biased based on my own mental blocks against certain characters (Jigglypuff) in determining matchup ratios, but I can admit that that's a bad idea and I try to be objective whenever I can, as I know that I'm not the best (yet) and people can use my characters and my opponent's characters at a level beyond what I'm currently fighting.

tl;dr: you probably haven't faced a good Ganondorf, he's not bad.
Keep in mind I never said that I haven't lost to a Ganondorf before. I know I've lost to a Ganondorf or two. However, I strongly felt that the reason I lost those match ups was because those opponents were much more skilled than I am. Like I said, I'm not all that great. Yet I get the feeling that I often beat Ganondorf players who are objectively much more skilled than I am simply because Rosalina has such an advantage. That's just my honest feeling; I'm not saying I can't be wrong.

I do agree that the balance in Smash 4 is really good in general. I don't think there's any character that isn't tournament viable in the hands of a skilled player who is dedicated to the character.
 
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NairWizard

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Keep in mind I never said that I haven't lost to a Ganondorf before. I know I've lost to a Ganondorf or two. However, I strongly felt that the reason I lost those match ups was because those opponents were much more skilled than I am. Like I said, I'm not all that great. Yet I get the feeling that I often beat Ganondorf players who are objectively much more skilled than I am simply because Rosalina has such an advantage. That's just my honest feeling; I'm not saying I can't be wrong.

I do agree that the balance in Smash 4 is really good in general. I don't think there's any character that isn't tournament viable in the hands of a skilled player who is dedicated to the character.
Then you're probably less biased than I am, haha. :)
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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I think the massive buffs for Ike and Shulk were very premature. Neither character was bad enough to really need it it in the previous version of smash. Why did they of all characters get such a massive buff? Characters that are clearly weaker than them - the Mario brothers come to mind - have not been buffed anywhere near as much.

Also, people underrate Wario so very much ... probably because they never played a good one.

:059:
 

-RedX-

Smash Lord
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IIRC, Japan had Ike and Shulk as the bottom 2 characters based off that one national. Don't think anybody even used them. Lol
 

Ryu_Ken

Ace Adventurer and Truth Seeker
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The way things are looking for Link, he's B tier material. The MUs that have given him trouble in the past feel easier to deal with such as Ness, Jigglypuff, and Toon Link. With a couple new ATs and returning Brawl ATs, Link feels pretty solid this time around. It sounds pretty bold saying that he's better than roughly half the roster, but I firmly believe that he is.
 
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