Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Ulevo]

If you had to pick - would you rather fight against a Ganon/Luigi with increased ground speed or increased airspeed. I would not, under any circumstance, give them better ground speed. Especially not Ganondorf. I'd give him more KO power or better dph before I'd agree to fight a Ganon with increased ground speed.



Replace with and you're pretty much spot on. Fox destroys a lot of characters, Mario doesn't really destroy anybody.



I don't know man. ZSS straight up can't be realistially beaten by a huge chunk of the cast. As soon as she gets the right opening the opponent either loses his stock or takes so much damage that he has real chance to ever catch up again. ZSS is definitely not OK at this point. I think it'd become more obvious if more people played this character.

I do. And I disagree. Zero Suit does not systematically take stocks from you if you know how to handle her, DI correctly, and pick proper stages. She is not like Sheik, Meta Knight or Rosalina where characters are invalidated by simply having a few powerful tools.

 

[Big-Cat]

The biggest one would probably be Little Mac, since he's Fair bait all the way to death. After him, pretty much all of the heavies lose horrendously to Sheik (Bowser, DK, D3, Ike), and I'm sure there are others I'm forgetting.

I think Bowser is a peculiar one after this recent patch. As long as you aren't in the air with Bowser, the matchup becomes MUCH more manageable. Yes, needles are a pain in the ass, but they're a pain in the ass for everyone - making all needles fire at once as opposed to linear would be a huge nerf. The UThrow buff gives him massive damage output buffs along with an incredibly deadly mixup tool (hence why I think Showtime is the best name for all followups).

I still think the matchup is 6-4 at worst, but it's no 7-3 like I'd say it was before.

 

[wedl!!]

So, then what does the opponent do about Nair>Flip Kick? Dthrow>Uair which works at kill percents? Uair>Up-B strings at the roof at early %? Dsmash>anything? Uair>anything because Uair is broken? Pray?

Also don't even say "her grab is bad huhuh". A character with the best overall mobility doesn't care how slow her grab is, she ends up getting it most of the time.

 

[Big-Cat]

How's Bowser in this new patch? His new up throw makes him look like pre-patch Luigi.

His UThrow is nowhere near as degenerate as Luigi's DThrow. You still need to do your fundamentals with Bowser before getting in with that. His kill setups from UThrow are also more read dependent. The being said, he does get an incredibly powerful positioning tool from this. It's a coin flip to see if you get the opponent's back to the ledge.

 

[Nobie]

While still a fresh patch, I think that the movement and up air buffs for Mewtwo alone completely upgrade his game to a noticeable degree.

It used to be that Mewtwo had an above-average neutral. While lacking a quick jab, his decent ground movement combined with nice, long-raged pokes and counterpokes meant that he could go toe to toe with even effective neutral game characters like Ryu. His main weakness was rushdown, and the top tier could just simply overwhelm them.

Now, however, with Top 10 dash speed, he can actually outpace most rushdown characters, and the few he can't, he still has his long reach to rely on in combination. Sonic and Falcon might still be a ton of trouble, but Mewtwo runs almost as fast as Sheik now, and so attempts to just get in and wail at Mewtwo can be more comfortably spaced out. By just having a better dash, Mewtwo's entire neutral game (as well as advantage game) just grows in potential. Not to mention, having a better walk speed means being able to more effectively outspace and counter with well-timed smashes.

As for up air, one of Mewtwo's qualities as a character, for better or for worse, is that he's kind of a gambler. In order to get the maximum output, you have to take a few risks every so often, and before this meant the tables could be turned on Mewtwo due to one wrong move. However, with the new up air, Mewtwo has greater potential to reverse the momentum of a match back in his favor because it's just a very real threat. Imagine that you've knocked Mewtwo into the air, but you miss the follow-up. In the past, Mewtwo MIGHT be able to get some damage in, but his options were either very close range (fair, dair), or were mainly damage builders (old up air, nair). Now, if you happen to whiff your aerial assault and get caught above Mewtwo? That might just be the end of your stock right there. The gamble is more even now.

 

[KirbySquad101]

There is a difference between a complete **** MU and a really bad MU (-3 and -2 respectively) and Kirby doesn't have five -3 MUs. His only horrendous MUs are Luigi/Sonic, but then he has SO many -2s and -1s it isn't even funny.

These buffs will make it easier to CP but won't really effect the bad MUs, unless it's maybe Rosalina or something.

What people don't get (not you, just general) is that Kirby is only relevant in the metagame because he has even MUs with ZSS/Falcon/Fox, all known as top 15. He loses so many top tier MUs and so many other MUs that without his presence with those characters he would be bad. He has a couple of other decent MUs, like against Robin, Little Mac, and Wii Fit, but their relevance isn't as strong. These buffs made things s bit easier but it isn't massive.

Also Antonykun in self-defense, your argument was that even it he doesn't get the 1/3 spike, the other two are still useful, which I agree, but I was talking specifically about the spike part. A 1/3 spike isn't very reliable as a spike but it's definitely one of the better d-airs in the game.

Well, I was under the assumption "mincemeat" meant **** match-up XD

But yes, you are right about his match-ups. Though it's a bit hard (for me) to decide which ones are truly awful for him and which ones are just bad overall.

Yeah, that's what I meant; the match-up challenges are still the same, but it's a little bit easier for him. HIs flaws are still the same and exploitable in each match-up.

Definitely on point concerning Kirby's match-ups. Really, to be honest, if ZSS ever DOES end up getting nerfed, then I wouldn't be surprised to see Kirby's popularity drop.

(BTW, I thought you thought that Yoshi was his worst match-up, or was that some other Kirby player?)

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Is Kirbys MU spread even similar to like it was in Brawl? You know very few characters actually nearly require a secondary for you to possibly beat, most of the ones above him are generally slight disadvantages, but generally Kirby can handle them, has a few evens on some above him, a good amount of evens or slight advantages below him, and like a couple MUs where he truly wins solidly(though I think it's safe to say no character really requires a secondary to fight Kirby.....right?)

So mostly his MU spread besides a few, is near evenish? Basically he can handle nearly everyone in the cast, some may be different.

But I need to know, even though I value MikeKirbys words, do you possibly think it's mostly....you know him himself having trouble with luigi that makes him think it's our worst? I mean I'm just curious cause technically, not everyone would always have the same exact opinion on who may be our worst and such, but he goes to tournaments the most and (I assume) does well, so why not?

 

[KirbySquad101]

Is Kirbys MU spread even similar to like it was in Brawl? You know very few characters actually nearly require a secondary for you to possibly beat, most of the ones above him are generally slight disadvantages, but generally Kirby can handle them, has a few evens on some above him, a good amount of evens or slight advantages below him, and like a couple MUs where he truly wins solidly(though I think it's safe to say no character really requires a secondary to fight Kirby.....right?)

So mostly his MU spread besides a few, is near evenish? Basically he can handle nearly everyone in the cast, some may be different.

But I need to know, even though I value MikeKirbys words, do you possibly think it's mostly....you know him himself having trouble with luigi that makes him think it's our worst? I mean I'm just curious cause technically, not everyone would always have the same exact opinion on who may be our worst and such, but he goes to tournaments the most and (I assume) does well, so why not?

Most likely, though unlike in Brawl, in which pretty much every low tier-bottom tier was easy for him, Kirby has trouble with characters that are considered some of the worst in the game. That, and Kirby has much more trouble overall in certain match-ups; like Mazdamaxsti said, while there are only a few **** match-ups for him, they are still some really bad match-ups for him overall.

I don't think it's just a problem that MikeKirby has. Poyo's Kirby pretty much got curb stomped by Boss, and Xanzy also had a miserable time with Denti's Luigi. https://youtu.be/VIDpHjn07OQ?t=6m

 

[Antonykun]

Also don't even say "her grab is bad huhuh". A character with the best overall mobility doesn't care how slow her grab is, she ends up getting it most of the time.

best part is her mobility could be average at best and her grab would still be a non issue (maybe a hyperbole). For one ZSS's grab is simply different and non-traditional. You can't normal grab stuff but you can abuse those lingering frames to high hell and if you need a "normal grab" you just do falling n-air into jab which gives you a 50:50 against the opponent's shield

 

[Ghostbone]

These Sheik complaints are waaaaay early.

I think it's just PTSD caused by Brawl MK getting to people.

Every fighting game has a best character, it's not uncommon for the best character to have no losing matchups. We don't even know that Sheik has no losing matchups yet, because the metagame is still so fresh (partly because constant patches).

And if we're worried that Sheik is making characters unviable, really you should be worrying about ZSS, who tends to body worse characters a lot harder than Sheik does.

 

[Amadeus9]

I'm not going to lie, Cloud is an extremely frustrating character to play against. Uair is just plain stupid.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Yeah, Zamus absolutely bodies Little Mac, as an example. Even Sonic has to play it safe against Zamus because Paralyzer cripples his biggest advantage over her. There's only a select few MU's that Zamus has any trouble with; and they tend to be very weirdly placed.

For example, she bodies Bowser but has a somewhat difficult time dealing with Charizard, especially in customs MU's which can only enhance Charizard's survivability. Charizard just seems to have answers to her; Flamethrower can block Paralyzer shots, he's fast enough to keep up with her on the ground and his grab is faster and can lead to either a combo throw or a kill throw, depending on percents. Fly makes a mockery of most of her moves with it's armor, too. It's by no means a curbstomp in 'Zard's favor, but she has a much more difficult time with him than most other heavies.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm not going to lie, Cloud is an extremely frustrating character to play against. Uair is just plain stupid.

I know Cloud's uair lingers for ages and since it's a sword it's got some sort of disjoint, but the way he holds it suggests to me that it's possible to outrange it, or rather out-disjoint it.

Unrelated, I suspect Limit Climhazzard doesn't have a hitbox on the upper third or so of Cloud's ascent. I was practicing uair > Limit Climhazzard yesterday and several times he flew right through the opponent without doing anything, I always had to jump closer before it would work. For all I know regular Climhazzard also has this problem but I don't think using it as combo fodder or a finisher is really something one should do to begin with...

 

[Ghostbone]

Yup limit up-b only hits around 2/3 of the way up.

Good old smash 4 animations not matching the hitboxes.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Well, I was under the assumption "mincemeat" meant **** match-up XD

But yes, you are right about his match-ups. Though it's a bit hard (for me) to decide which ones are truly awful for him and which ones are just bad overall.

Yeah, that's what I meant; the match-up challenges are still the same, but it's a little bit easier for him. HIs flaws are still the same and exploitable in each match-up.

Definitely on point concerning Kirby's match-ups. Really, to be honest, if ZSS ever DOES end up getting nerfed, then I wouldn't be surprised to see Kirby's popularity drop.

(BTW, I thought you thought that Yoshi was his worst match-up, or was that some other Kirby player?)

I used to think Yoshi was our worst, but I talked around and played some top Yoshis and just figured out its a personal struggle.

Is Kirbys MU spread even similar to like it was in Brawl? You know very few characters actually nearly require a secondary for you to possibly beat, most of the ones above him are generally slight disadvantages, but generally Kirby can handle them, has a few evens on some above him, a good amount of evens or slight advantages below him, and like a couple MUs where he truly wins solidly(though I think it's safe to say no character really requires a secondary to fight Kirby.....right?)

So mostly his MU spread besides a few, is near evenish? Basically he can handle nearly everyone in the cast, some may be different.

But I need to know, even though I value MikeKirbys words, do you possibly think it's mostly....you know him himself having trouble with luigi that makes him think it's our worst? I mean I'm just curious cause technically, not everyone would always have the same exact opinion on who may be our worst and such, but he goes to tournaments the most and (I assume) does well, so why not?

Personal bias can take apart, but it is pretty widely agreed on Luigi being are worst. Mike hasn't lost to a Sonic in NYC but he says that MU is still 2nd worst.

Kirby doesn't demolish anyone, most of his MUs are -1 so you don't need a secondary or anything, but among high/top tiers his MU spread is more of -2. Things could change tho.

 

[Browny]

So I just found that floaty characters can airdodge or DI away from clouds upb oos then fade back in for a free punish no matter where the move hits them from low %'s to around 100.

Mewtwo gets a free shadowclaw and shadow ball, pretty sure jiggs can get a rest for free as well.

Mewtwo can also fair cloud right out of his sideb, the 4th sweep misses giving you an opening to hit him before the 5th slash. Surely other characters can get something out of this but it has to be something fast though.

I have also managed to hit the ground and shield the 5th hit so I think the correct type of DI for floaty and fast fallers might allow a lot of characters a free punish on this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJagYXR55A

 

[Jams.]

I do. And I disagree. Zero Suit does not systematically take stocks from you if you know how to handle her, DI correctly, and pick proper stages. She is not like Sheik, Meta Knight or Rosalina where characters are invalidated by simply having a few powerful tools.

Picking proper stages against her is harder than it sounds in NA with the current common ruleset. You're basically forced to ban Dreamland and Battlefield, so ZSS gets her choice of Smashville, FD, or T&C. Then, when it's her CP, you can only ban one of Dreamland or Battlefield so she can take you to the other.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Picking proper stages against her is harder than it sounds in NA with the current common ruleset. You're basically forced to ban Dreamland and Battlefield, so ZSS gets her choice of Smashville, FD, or T&C. Then, when it's her CP, you can only ban one of Dreamland or Battlefield so she can take you to the other.

And this is why it's important to have variety in stages IMO. But stage legality and rules is its own thread.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yup limit up-b only hits around 2/3 of the way up.

Good old smash 4 animations not matching the hitboxes.

Well to be fair trying to hit someone at the apex of Climhazzard outside of recovery is a fairly dumb move, with or without Limit, when uair exists. You really want that initial thrust to make it as reliable as possible.

 

[Amadeus9]

Well to be fair trying to hit someone at the apex of Climhazzard outside of recovery is a fairly dumb move, with or without Limit, when uair exists. You really want that initial thrust to make it as reliable as possible.

?

If uair > upb was a clean confirm always, uair would be even more busted.

 

[S_B]

Are we assuming completely that it wont get better for low tiers? They may have a lot of hidden stuff not yet found.

Once upon a time, I think this may have been true, but these days we're incredibly good at figuring out which characters are the most effective and for which reasons.

The odds that a breakaway Shulk, for example, is going to suddenly start making it to grand finals in Evo are extremely low to nonexistant. We have Shulk players still labbing him and figuring out Shulk's tricks. There's at least one excellent Shulk in Montreal's scene (he lost to a Mario player last night, who went on to lose to KingKong's Bowser in grand finals), so it's not like no one is trying.

The problem is that we're just exceedingly good at figuring out which characters have the most exploitable movesets. Shulk is never going to have anything as effective as ZSS' grab > 2xU-air > Up+B (which kills Bowser at ~80%) and so long as it's just that easy for some characters to secure kills, those characters are going to get played over others.

Fewer people playing them and pushing their meta forward doesn't help, of course, but I don't think we'd see any Shulk miracles show up even if all of the top players were "forced" to play Shulk for the next 6 months or something.

I think Bowser is a peculiar one after this recent patch. As long as you aren't in the air with Bowser, the matchup becomes MUCH more manageable. Yes, needles are a pain in the ***, but they're a pain in the *** for everyone - making all needles fire at once as opposed to linear would be a huge nerf. The UThrow buff gives him massive damage output buffs along with an incredibly deadly mixup tool (hence why I think Showtime is the best name for all followups).

I still think the matchup is 6-4 at worst, but it's no 7-3 like I'd say it was before.

I'm optimistic but not hopeful. DK's Ding-dong didn't end Sheik's reign of terror so I don't see why the Showtime/Shell shock would necessarily do so either. Bowser still loses very hard in the neutral against Sheik and that's where he's going to have the most problems.

Bowsers can now convert so much more off a grab on Sheik, yes, but they need to GET that grab to start with in order to do that.

I'll be watching the various tournaments VERY closely after Bowser's buff. REALLY looking forward to seeing LeTroof on Tues (if he goes to S@X), though I don't think there's a solid Sheik main there.

 

[meleebrawler]

?

If uair > upb was a clean confirm always, uair would be even more busted.

Most of Climhazzard's power is at the start of the move, especially in Limit where it works as a nice OOS kill move over 100%.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

We have Shulk players still labbing him and figuring out Shulk's tricks. There's at least one excellent Shulk in Montreal's scene (he lost to a Mario player last night, who went on to lose to KingKong's Bowser in grand finals), so it's not like no one is trying.

Nah.

Shulk will never have a relevant player base unless he gets buffed into a blatant top tier character.

 

[Big-Cat]

I'm optimistic but not hopeful. DK's Ding-dong didn't end Sheik's reign of terror so I don't see why the Showtime/Shell shock would necessarily do so either. Bowser still loses very hard in the neutral against Sheik and that's where he's going to have the most problems.

Bowsers can now convert so much more off a grab on Sheik, yes, but they need to GET that grab to start with in order to do that.

I'll be watching the various tournaments VERY closely after Bowser's buff. REALLY looking forward to seeing LeTroof on Tues (if he goes to S@X), though I don't think there's a solid Sheik main there.

Thing is that Showtime isn't JUST about damage like everything thinks. Ding Dong is just a combo for DK. Showtime is much more than that. The minimal knockback means the opponent must make a decision right away. They have a handful of options and they each have a counter in some form.

DI Left or Right - Loss of stage control If I simply decide to run under you. If you decide to air dodge expecting something and I predict that, you're getting drop kicked.
No DI - Another UTilt or UAir. If I predict air dodge, charged USmash.
Jump up - UAir OR USmash. In general, being up high against any opponent is disadvantageous.
Jump left or right - Any aerials or in some cases, Bowser Bomb.

TL;DR this is a giant mixup setup. If I guess right as Bowser, you're either getting hit or losing stage positioning. DK's UThrow and Cargo Throw > UThrow have too much knockback to be used as a mixup tool like Bowser.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I'm hoping that the final patch (the one that comes out with Bayonetta and Corrin) will have Jiggs and Zelda buffs and some Sheik nerfs. Maybe a little Palutena love but she doesn't need it as much.

Of course, I'm most worried about the balancing of Bayonetta and Corrin since they've basically only got one shot to get it right.

Hey, I know you on gamefaqs. Fast racing neo right?

And to keep myself from getting an infraction, I've been messing around with my main and I've always wondered; why doesn't anybody with a throwable projectile practice their z drop aerial catches? Like, you can hold that item til the end of time with total access to all your moves in the air and on the ground. As a rob player, I know just how much I'm reliant on having gyro in my hands ( short-ranged tilts means getting outpoked constantly, short ranged Fair and slow Bair means either more commitment to your action or whiff, which has gotten me killed many times, or a pro-active attempt in wall out in Bair) and I need it in my hands for as long as possible.

Gah I want to get more detailed, but I'm tired and feel lazy today -__-

 

[Thinkaman]

Is there actually anyone who thinks that post-buff Bowser is better than post-nerf Luigi??? I'm not sure the comparison holds.

 

[LancerStaff]

Yup limit up-b only hits around 2/3 of the way up.

Good old smash 4 animations not matching the hitboxes.

Didn't want to say anything the other day because I know this hitbox stuff can really taint people's perception of characters, but I guess the cat's out of the bag on that one.

There's a few more things like that I've found though, like Fair appearing a frame or two before the hitbox actually comes out. Makes landing with the move a pain, that's for sure. Seems like any other sword character when it comes to hitboxes...

Seems kinda ridiculous that a character made from scratch, and after all the complaints of the other swordsmen's hitboxes, would still have these issues.

 

[Y2Kay]

Is there actually anyone who thinks that post-buff Bowser is better than post-nerf Luigi??? I'm not sure the comparison holds.

i think he was comparing their playstyles, not them overall.

I think that's a more reasonable and fair point

 

[RonNewcomb]

(As much as I've loved the online Cloud dittos for hours straight the past two days, I really wish Cloud had more than one dark color of outfit. I don't care if my Cloud is pretty in pink as long as it's visually distinct. So confusing...)

So with all this talk of a handful of characters getting better post-patch, who are the losers of the patch? Mewtwo, Lucas, Kirby, Bowser, etc. can't rise in a tier list without others dropping. Who dropped?

 

[Big-Cat]

Is there actually anyone who thinks that post-buff Bowser is better than post-nerf Luigi??? I'm not sure the comparison holds.

Only thing I hold with the comparison is that Luigi's DThrow was straight up overcentralizing on his playstyle.

 

[TDK]

(As much as I've loved the online Cloud dittos for hours straight the past two days, I really wish Cloud had more than one dark color of outfit. I don't care if my Cloud is pretty in pink as long as it's visually distinct. So confusing...)

So with all this talk of a handful of characters getting better post-patch, who are the losers of the patch? Mewtwo, Lucas, Kirby, Bowser, etc. can't rise in a tier list without others dropping. Who dropped?

Literally nobody got nerfed for singles this patch.

 

[C0rvus]

People on reddit still adamantly think Mewtwo is bottom 10. A Dedede player argued that he was bottom 5. "His neutral isn't good.He has no safe moves on shield." Bruh. Fair is plus on shield now. Down tilt is safe at max range, no? Shadow Ball and a reflector/command grab hybrid, disjoint, as well as above average mobility makes for bad neutral I guess.
I don't know how much of his combo game is real but this character isn't bad. You can't ignore his consistent kill power and top notch off stage game either. Bottom 5 is a joke.

Characters I am certain are worse than Mewtwo:

 

[Y2Kay]

People on reddit still adamantly think Mewtwo is bottom 10. A Dedede player argued that he was bottom 5. "His neutral isn't good.He has no safe moves on shield." Bruh. Fair is plus on shield now. Down tilt is safe at max range, no? Shadow Ball and a reflector/command grab hybrid, disjoint, as well as above average mobility makes for bad neutral I guess.
I don't know how much of his combo game is real but this character isn't bad. You can't ignore his consistent kill power and top notch off stage game either. Bottom 5 is a joke.

Characters I am certain are worse than Mewtwo:

Uh oh.

I have the urge to add on, but I'm not falling for this one again.

 

[UberMadman]

People on reddit still adamantly think Mewtwo is bottom 10. A Dedede player argued that he was bottom 5. "His neutral isn't good.He has no safe moves on shield." Bruh. Fair is plus on shield now. Down tilt is safe at max range, no? Shadow Ball and a reflector/command grab hybrid, disjoint, as well as above average mobility makes for bad neutral I guess.
I don't know how much of his combo game is real but this character isn't bad. You can't ignore his consistent kill power and top notch off stage game either. Bottom 5 is a joke.

Characters I am certain are worse than Mewtwo:

Not sure I buy Falco being worse than Mewtwo. Falco gets very high reward off of his aerials too. A frame 4 bair that does 13 and can kill at around 90 near the ledge is ridiculous. But otherwise, yeah, I agree with you, he's not bottom 10 anymore.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Luigi mains started with an overcentralized throw, while Bowser mains did not. Bowser mains built their character meta off of tilts, OoS options, and punishing while Luigi players built it off of shield baiting then grabbing. With Luigi d-throw shenanigans gone, Luigi mains had to retool and rework around all that they've known Luigi for, giving a minor setback in his character development.

Now that Bowser does have a centralized throw, it gives him better punishment alongside all the other solid neutral techniques his mains forged over the past year. I'm not saying that he is already better than Luigi, I think he just has a more solid gameplan and more potential than Luigi does right now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Some of Cloud's hitboxes are weird, but others are just plain absurd to make up for it. The way his Nair hits behind him on F5 is pretty silly for edgeguarding and whatnot.

Feel like Cross Slash 1-2 and then like, shield on hit might be the best way with Cross Slash, either that or learn to space it properly so I'm not punished by floaties. Climhazzard OoS on floaties I guess is a matter of not doing the downwards followup and instead just opting to fastfall after the initial hits (thank god the second part is optional)

Also I'm inclined to agree, if Uair into Limit Up+B worked because the whole move had hitboxes it'd be pretty dumb. It's very much a solid OoS kill option and recovery move, but the thing goes as high as like 1.5 ZSS jumps, having a hitbox for all that time would be....silly, to say the least.

 

[Sonicninja115]

People on reddit still adamantly think Mewtwo is bottom 10. A Dedede player argued that he was bottom 5. "His neutral isn't good.He has no safe moves on shield." Bruh. Fair is plus on shield now. Down tilt is safe at max range, no? Shadow Ball and a reflector/command grab hybrid, disjoint, as well as above average mobility makes for bad neutral I guess.
I don't know how much of his combo game is real but this character isn't bad. You can't ignore his consistent kill power and top notch off stage game either. Bottom 5 is a joke.

Characters I am certain are worse than Mewtwo:

Fair is safe on shield, I believe Dtilt is only unsafe if shield grabbed. Uair and Nair are safe as well. A properly spaced Bair should be as well.

His combo game is really good, though not from grabs. Thus, people whine and give up because it takes more then 5 seconds to learn.

 

[Firefoxx]

Just because no one got nerfed does not mean no character is worse off post patch

Like, I have no idea if Kirby can become competitively relevant post patch, but its just common sense that every character Kirby already did well against is worse off after the patch.

And I damn sure wouldn't want to have a Robin main like Dath or Raziek in my region

 

[Amadeus9]

People on reddit

Well, there you go.

 

[S_B]

Is there actually anyone who thinks that post-buff Bowser is better than post-nerf Luigi??? I'm not sure the comparison holds.

I'll let you know after I see how well Troof's Bowser handles Boss' Luigi.

Granted, he has beaten Boss in past, but it was a tough uphill battle. If it's a slaughter, I'll mention it here.