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Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

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LancerStaff

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So, uh, Lucario's looking pretty borked in doubles.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...unnTNaTGm32jVyo/edit?usp=sharing&pref=2&pli=1

Lucario's aura is effected by stocks. The further behind he is, the more powerful he is. Problem comes in when the game doesn't care to who he has a stock deficit to. If he throws away two stocks and his teammate doesn't die he'll reach max aura at about 50%, and won't drop unless he or his teammate dies. For some perspective, a fully charged max aura Fsmash can kill somebody at 0% center stage. And we're running out of patches so this kiiiinda needs to be made known.
 

FallofBrawl

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The Anubis strat is a pretty well known one and it's been in Brawl. No body's really tested it thoroughly for smash 4 though. However, I don't believe throwing away 2 stocks is worth it. Especially when it's passed low level play.
 

LancerStaff

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The Anubis strat is a pretty well known one and it's been in Brawl. No body's really tested it thoroughly for smash 4 though. However, I don't believe throwing away 2 stocks is worth it. Especially when it's passed low level play.
Dunno man... It should of been literally weaker in Brawl since aura's different, and only recently has doubles been unborked. I mean, doesn't sound especially hard to at least take two stocks off the opponent like this, and it's not like we don't have any decent tanky damage rackers to pair with Lucario. (hint hint :4pit::4darkpit:)

At least we should see how it works in the meta real soon or it might not get patched. (Banning won't be a major issue, but it'd be silly to force Lucario's teammate to SD if he dies twice quickly.)
 

Radical Larry

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Or the scrubby FG stigma.

And those who still think Samus is a zoner lol
I doubt many folks still think she's that low, but it's possible. If your tier list favors results most heavily, then there's no reason to make her bottom tier. Idk. Her being bad isn't even a meme, I think it's mostly misinformation.
I will be honest, when I first thought of Samus in this game, and for a long while no less, I thought she was bottom tier, but as I slowly kept playing her, I found out about some sick sweet advantages of hers that actually make me think of her as a solid middle tier character; one of the reasons can be attributed to her guaranteed advantages against all bulky super heavies (:4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:) except for R.O.B., who will outright beat her. And I believe she can go toe-to-toe against many other characters, but can outright beat Little Mac and Dr. Mario thanks to her N-Air's semi-spike/horizontal angle. Roy seems to be no problem to her as well when D-Throw combos start (her D-Throw combos are extremely powerful if you space correctly), Ryu could have some trouble if the Samus player knows how to actually play a bit of mind-games, and Captain Falcon is relatively an even.

Samus is more about the retreating into a grab combo and waiting for the most opportunistic moment to strike, all while setting up projectile traps. One needs to use her Bomb more since it allows for mind-games when retreating, like a possible trick into Dash Attack, which can lead into U-Air and another U-Air or U-Spec.

I've played against quite a lot of amazing people on Anther's with Samus lately (one of which whom kept on rage quitting because I kept beating their DK out of them), and she just seems like she's underestimated.

Now if I went into Falco and my history recently on Anther's, you'll be seeing something larger.
But to put it short, U-Throw > B-Air > B-Air is a thing, Falco's platform pressure is strong, he can cover ledge getup options like it were nothing (seriously, just U-Smash if someone's doing a standard getup, you're not going to miss), his F-Air and N-Air are pretty amazing stage-spike tools, I've played with some absurd precision with him against my opponents and still made the same guy (who I beat with Samus) rage-quit.

I don't know about you guys, but I'm going to keep on using them alongside Ganondorf, Link and Bowser. I'm actually excited to keep on using the two for later matches.

(Note: The matches had almost no lag, so there can't be argument with 'lag helped me'.)
 

Luco

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Has NAKAT actually used Ness this tournament? It just seems like he's all but dropped Ness and even Fox in his most serious play recently. :o
 

Charoite

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Why you would want to lose a stock let alone 2, is bad strategy because you are making a gamble, because you are a stock away from being in a very bad position to win the set, the enemy team would focus on only one of the lucario team forced them to share stock until your supposed too strong strategy is nothing more that a joke, Lucario is better tanking these 2 stocks because aura is still working with each stock.
 

FallofBrawl

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The only reason it's worked well in Brawl was because Lucarios partner (usually MK) would ledge camp for days and hold stocks down easy. Momentum cancelling didn't make it any harder either. Even though it's stronger this game, i think it better to utilize the inherent mechanic of rage instead.
 

JesterJaded

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Sooo. Lucas' FC Fair is actually kinda bonkers, comboing into Jab, Dtilt, Ftilt, Utilt, Fair, Dair, Zair, Dsmash, Fsmash, PK Fire, Dash Attack, and best of all, grab. That makes three different grab confirm moves in his kit now, I believe? Anyway, though it's a frame-perfect option, the reward speaks for itself.


 

LancerStaff

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Why you would want to lose a stock let alone 2, is bad strategy because you are making a gamble, because you are a stock away from being in a very bad position to win the set, the enemy team would focus on only one of the lucario team forced them to share stock until your supposed too strong strategy is nothing more that a joke, Lucario is better tanking these 2 stocks because aura is still working with each stock.
It's roughly 2.5x damage and KB for 1/3rd of your stock pool. The gamble's debatable because the game doesn't care who you're behind, just that you are behind. If he goes for Anubis and loses a stock right away he'll keep it up right until both opponents drop below 3 stocks.

The only reason it's worked well in Brawl was because Lucarios partner (usually MK) would ledge camp for days and hold stocks down easy. Momentum cancelling didn't make it any harder either. Even though it's stronger this game, i think it better to utilize the inherent mechanic of rage instead.
Dur, rage. Forgot about that...

Wasn't it usually a Lucas with Lucario though?
 

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Johnny Westside got top 8 at 2GGT: ESAM Saga, going as far as taking a game off of ZeRo

Hakii (the Lucas main at PAX currently) also used Samus at Shockwave 62 (where he got 2nd in a bracket of over 100+ people)

There's also AfroSmash/Gardner getting anywhere from 1st to top 16 in England and KayJay getting top 8 in Austria, as far as Europe is concerned.

SUGOI | Z (frequently placing top 3 in Vegas), Depth and Tumultus (both top 8~16 in Orlando, Florida), Sk8ter Jay (top 16~32 in Midwest), ChoZox (famous for getting 8th at Paragon, top 3~16 anywhere else they go) and of course, Xyro himself, for the U.S.

Those are just a few I can think of, off the top of my head.

Then there's ESAM busting her out once in a blue moon.
 

Teshie U

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So top 32 at PAX looking like:

TSM | ZeRo :4diddy::4sheik: vs. TLOC | Denti :4sheik::4luigi:

PG | MVD :4diddy: vs. MVG COG | Mew2King :4cloud:
GW | FOW:4ness: vs. COG | Wizzrobe :4sheik:

iQHQ | Vinnie :4sheik: vs. TTN | MJG :4villager:

2GG | VoiD:4sheik: vs. TTN | Karna :4sheik:

CLG | NAKAT :4fox::4pikachu::4ness: vs. FX | Dakpo :4zss:

PG | ESAM:4pikachu: vs. UA | Jbandrew :4metaknight:

THE | ANTi :4mario::4charizard::4zss: vs. Megafox :4fox:

Losers

Dojo | BC:4villager: vs. Speedy(?)

Phenom:4fox: vs. Hakii :4lucas:

Hero of Winds(?) vs. KJ :4cloud:

VGBC | Logic :4olimar: vs. Mikeffect :4ness:

Tesh :4sonic::4megaman:vs. NiteZ:4palutena:

Ryze :4feroy:vs. SaSSy :4rob:

Xyro :4samus: vs. Phantasm (?)

Weegee:4mario: vs. Dreadream:4ryu:

Pretty good for Top 32.
this is a convention tournament so dont much much weight on the losers bracket. the spread in winners are the true threats. in all likelihood, the diversity you see in losers will be fully eradicated at round 2 when the pros push each other into losers
 

Nobie

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So I was watching this old Ultrachen video for fun about matchups, and it got me thinking a good deal about how we talk about and approach the idea of matchups in Smash 4. The video is specifically about SFIV, and Zangief in particular, but I think it applies here, so forgive me that it isn't going to be getting to Smash specifically until the very end.

There are a few things to take away from the video. First, matchups change. We like to think that matchups are more about figuring out the "truth," but they're more organic than that. Each time one side starts to lose, they work to figure something out. There's an ebb and flow and change over time in matchups, and just because it looks bad now doesn't mean it will look the same in two years. Heck, it might still be a bad matchup, but it could be bad in a completely different way. And remember, SF as a series is older than just about any other fighting game, including Melee. I sometimes see people say that we can figure out the shape of a matchup in no time because of all of the experience playing Melee and Brawl, and that's somewhat true, but TIME will always be an important factor.

Second, sometimes the solution to a matchup might just be a complete change of style. In the video, the example given is Zangief vs. Abel. Zangief players felt like they lost to Abel, until a notable Zangief player started playing Zangief more defensively in the matchup. This went against the notion of Zangief as this in-your-face character, but it worked. As a Mewtwo player, I really take this to heart because I often feel like you NEED to play a lot of matchups very differently in order to win. When I see people complaining about Kirby, I ask, "Why aren't you just running the hell away the entire time?"

Third, even when characters have very bad matchups, people will at least still lab all of them out. Sagat destroys Zangief, but that didn't stop Zangiefs from developing their meta against Sagat or the rest of the roster.

Now, taking all of this, I want to look at the recent Capcom Cup. Snake Eyez, a Zangief player, got 5th at what might arguably be the hardest Street Fighter tournament ever. Recently, he had picked up Evil Ryu as well because of some of those bad matchups. However, in some cases he still went Zangief against players who attempted to counterpick Sagat against him, because his experience in the matchup trumped their pocket Sagats. That's not a "tiers don't matter" argument, but rather a "you can't truly separate the tier list from the players, even if we all love trying to do so." That's also not discouraging theorycrafting, etc.. It's just that when it comes down to match time, there's no sitting there thinking, "Well if my opponent was of theoretically equal skill to me at a high level, this would happen!"

In the end, Snake Eyez lost to Daigo really badly, 3-0. Daigo plays Evil Ryu in Ultra SFIV, and none of the matches were close. Evil Ryu is a bad matchup for Zangief, but what really shone through was that Daigo was simply better than Snake Eyez at his own strengths (footsies, mind games). Now, Snake Eyez could have switched to Evil Ryu but he didn't, and that's likely because he would have been in an even worse situation. He would have been playing the mirror match against the BEST Evil Ryu in the WORLD, and all of those advantages Daigo had vs. Snake Eyez in terms of play style, skill, etc., would have not gone away.

Compare this to fighting ZeRo. ZeRo is the best Smash 4 player in the world. ZeRo has a deadly Diddy Kong and an even more devastating Sheik. If you lose to his Sheik, is he beating you because he's using Sheik, or because Sheik amplifies his superior skills that much more? If you pick Sheik to fight him, will you have a better chance of winning? Maybe if you're really good and dedicated to Sheik, like Void or Mr. R, but if you think it's just a matter of "I got the better character," then you might just get dunked on not just by ZeRo but by everyone else.
 
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Zannabluke

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they're going to show bayo and corrin during takoigi 2016 aka tomorrow

let's get a taste of what's coming next
 

Spinosaurus

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.Now, taking all of this, I want to look at the recent Capcom Cup. Snake Eyez, a Zangief player, got 5th at what might arguably be the hardest Street Fighter tournament ever. Recently, he had picked up Evil Ryu as well because of some of those bad matchups. However, in some cases he still went Zangief against players who attempted to counterpick Sagat against him, because his experience in the matchup trumped their pocket Sagats.
Wrong match? He counterpicked Evil Ryu there after losing convincingly with Zangief, unless I'm missing your point.
 

Nobie

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Wrong match? He counterpicked Evil Ryu there after losing convincingly with Zangief, unless I'm missing your point.
Yeah whoops, linked the wrong match. With both matches in mind, I think it's possible to see that sometimes counterpicking is a good idea, and sometimes it isn't.
 

Djent

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The Anubis strat is a pretty well known one and it's been in Brawl. No body's really tested it thoroughly for smash 4 though. However, I don't believe throwing away 2 stocks is worth it. Especially when it's passed low level play.
To corroborate this, Taiheita+Gomamugitya threw away 1 stock in a lot of their old Brawl sets, but were not doing so at Umebura F.A.T.. Which, to be clear, was before the team healing nerf.
 

Nah

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This please.

It doesn't make sense to me that grounded Wizkick clanks with a number of lower-damge projectiles.
A lot of what clanks with what doesn't make sense in this game really.

I still don't understand why some disjointed jabs clank with non-disjointed ones, or why Elthunder clanks with Mario/Luigi fireballs.

Their matchup spread seems pretty decent too - except for the obligatory mauling by ZSS and potentially Sheik, I don't know of anything that's considered really dreadful.
:4diddy::4mario: are also pretty bad. There's other ones that are bad too, but not on the same level and/or it's not agreed upon at all.
 
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meleebrawler

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A lot of what clanks with what doesn't make sense in this game really.

I still don't understand why some disjointed jabs clank with non-disjointed ones, or why Elthunder clanks with Mario/Luigi fireballs.
Your attack must do at least 9% more than the opposing one to outprioritize it. Elthunder does around 10%, Mario's Fireball around 4%. Nothing unusual here.
 

Sonicninja115

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Your attack must do at least 9% more than the opposing one to outprioritize it. Elthunder does around 10%, Mario's Fireball around 4%. Nothing unusual here.
Isn't it 7% I watched a video Esam did, so he could be wrong and I could have misremembered it...
 

C0rvus

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As Robin, I have found Pikachu to be pretty hard, and Mii Brawler with his optimal set is a straight up bad matchup.

I'm pretty sure you can DI away from Samus' down throw, in a manner where the up airs won't connect. As a character, Samus seems to be able to get away with very little if the other player is versed in the matchup.
 
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Radical Larry

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Your attack must do at least 9% more than the opposing one to outprioritize it. Elthunder does around 10%, Mario's Fireball around 4%. Nothing unusual here.
Wait...you're kind of wrong on three things:

Little Mac's transcending priority on Jab 1, which only does around 2% damage(?)
Link's and TL's Bombs, which can defeat most projectiles or block them.
Any 2%+ attack on Dedede's Gordo Toss.

Those are exceptions.

As Robin, I have found Pikachu to be pretty hard, and Mii Brawler with his optimal set is a straight up bad matchup.

I'm pretty sure you can DI away from Samus' down throw, in a manner where the up airs won't connect. As a character, Samus seems to be able to get away with very little if the other player is versed in the matchup.
Well, you can DI away from Samus's Down Throw, but then you're in prime position to being hit by F-Air, N-Air or a well-read U-Smash (in the event the opponent decides to air dodge).

And even if the opponent is well-versed in a match up against Samus, all you need to do is switch between Retreating, Zoning, Defensive and Offensive play-styles. Retreating is good for getting grabs, using aerials like B-Air to pressure as you get away and retreating once the opponent's back in neutral.
Zoning's good for when you're opponent's away from you to the point where you can charge Charge Shot fully and still use the Missiles or Z-Air.
Defensive is when you use spot-dodges, D-Smash and any attack to keep the opponent away so you can get into Zoning. It's also good to keep the opponent away using Smash Missiles near the edge of the stage or as a get up action.
And finally on the offensive, once you get a good grab, or you find weakness in the opponent's shield or defenses, use it to your advantage. This also requires you to do some mind games like grabbing onto the ledge and performing get up options like Charge Shot, F-Air, Z-Air or N-Air.

I switch between these styles so the opponent would be on edge trying to figure out which one I'd go into next. So far it's been effective.
 
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Nah

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Your attack must do at least 9% more than the opposing one to outprioritize it. Elthunder does around 10%, Mario's Fireball around 4%. Nothing unusual here.
You're right, but I suppose I meant more from a non-mechanical standpoint. Idk about you, but I find it a little weird that someone's unarmored fist isn't guaranteed to get split open by a sword swing, or how "powerful magic" (as one of the loading screen tips calls Robin's spells) doesn't beat out some weak fireballs.

But then I have to remember what game it is I'm playing
 

JesterJaded

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Logic being trumped by game mechanics has existed since the dawn of gaming, so I don't really mind it so long as it's from a balance perspective. If the game had any intention of being literal with the characters' attacks, Link's sword would be a reflector.

That'd be pretty neat tho



Edit: Speaking of a bad idea to give swords more priority,


How does everyone feel about the Cloud / Rosaluma matchup?

What I've gathered from Mew2king's approach against Rosaluma is that an aggressive use of limit is terrifying; the hitbox is so huge that it can act as both a means to dispose of Luma and a means of ending Rosalina's stock at 50%. It's also one of the best shield-conditioning tools in the game, since the mere presence of Limit was causing Dabuz to shield bait it out of fear. In a situation as shown in the video with platforms, Cloud could rush in while Luma is spaced away from Rosalina and grab her once she's been conditioned to fear limit, throw her into disadvantage, bait an airdodge, and then seal the stock with Limit.

In regards to neutral, I noticed that Mew2king's option to charge Limit instead of approaching was baiting Dabuz to approach and apply shield pressure because Limit is just that ridiculous in the matchup. This allowed Mew2king to punish with his long-range disjoints. I imagine that the matchup would be even more frustrating if the Cloud player counterpicks Duck Hunt or Battlefield and utilizes platforms to escape disadvantage and improve his Limit-charge keep-away game.

When Luma does get blasted offstage, and he will do so frequently, Dabuz tends to play keep-away until Luma regenerates, but Cloud gets arguably more benefit by charging Limit and going for another 50% kill. Alternatively Cloud could mix things up by conditioning the opponent that they'll recharge Limit once Luma is gone and bait them into engaging footsies, or just rush Rosalina down with disjoints galore.

There's so much potential for mind games here.
 
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Sonicninja115

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How can I watch the NicoNico stream? I know it doesn't start for 4 more hours, but do I have to have a profile?
 

Patriot Duck

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You can log into Nicovideo with your Facebook or Twitter accounts apparently.

Edit: I also believe this is the link to the stream.
 
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Swamp Sensei

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May I ask why people think Charizard is bottom five?

He's not Sheik or anything but he's not THAT bad?

Like bottom 15 or something around there.
 

saur_ssb

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It's not surprising that M2K beat MVD with Cloud when at Pax Prime he beat MVD with DK and made him switch off of Diddy to Duckhunt.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Logic being trumped by game mechanics has existed since the dawn of gaming, so I don't really mind it so long as it's from a balance perspective. If the game had any intention of being literal with the characters' attacks, Link's sword would be a reflector.

That'd be pretty neat tho



Edit: Speaking of a bad idea to give swords more priority,


How does everyone feel about the Cloud / Rosaluma matchup?

What I've gathered from Mew2king's approach against Rosaluma is that an aggressive use of limit is terrifying; the hitbox is so huge that it can act as both a means to dispose of Luma and a means of ending Rosalina's stock at 50%. It's also one of the best shield-conditioning tools in the game, since the mere presence of Limit was causing Dabuz to shield bait it out of fear. In a situation as shown in the video with platforms, Cloud could rush in while Luma is spaced away from Rosalina and grab her once she's been conditioned to fear limit, throw her into disadvantage, bait an airdodge, and then seal the stock with Limit.

In regards to neutral, I noticed that Mew2king's option to charge Limit instead of approaching was baiting Dabuz to approach and apply shield pressure because Limit is just that ridiculous in the matchup. This allowed Mew2king to punish with his long-range disjoints. I imagine that the matchup would be even more frustrating if the Cloud player counterpicks Duck Hunt or Battlefield and utilizes platforms to escape disadvantage and improve his Limit-charge keep-away game.

When Luma does get blasted offstage, and he will do so frequently, Dabuz tends to play keep-away until Luma regenerates, but Cloud gets arguably more benefit by charging Limit and going for another 50% kill. Alternatively Cloud could mix things up by conditioning the opponent that they'll recharge Limit once Luma is gone and bait them into engaging footsies, or just rush Rosalina down with disjoints galore.

There's so much potential for mind games here.
There's something I have to consider every time I play as Rosalina, and this video just made me think of it again.

Watch carefully when Rosalina respawns. Luma appears next to her and does a little twirl before it "locks on" to Rosalina's position and does its following thing. This happens even when Rosalina drops immediately from the respawn platform.

It's a very minor detail, and if I'm being honest it probably doesn't matter very much in the long run. But it does mean that against characters like Cloud that can charge up something or other while waiting for the opponent to respawn, Rosalina is at a very minor disadvantage compared to most characters in the sense that she doesn't have access to her full suite of pressure options upon respawn to stop them charging. She either has to delay briefly in order to allow Luma to sync up (which is just free charge for the opponent) or move in without Luma and hope she doesn't need it for the next two seconds (which can let them break her pressure more easily).

Like I said, a very minor detail.

EDIT: A list of characters with moves they can charge and store:
:4cloud::4dk::4lucario::4mario::4mewtwo::4pacman::4rob::4robinm::4samus::4sheik::4wiifit:
 
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Swamp Sensei

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I think it's due to how he was before the patches.
Even then, I'd argue he wasn't bottom five.

Like Number Six. :troll:

Regardless, the buffs have improved his performance significantly.

Sometimes I wished people played low tiers extensively before regarding them garbage.
 
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