Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Zannabluke]

But to be fair, the person playing the character has been playing the character for.... less than a week? The character is already getting results so early on? Has to mean something, maybe (and probably) not that Cloud is top tier, but better than most of the Smash 4 Cast.

oh for sure, i personally think that cloud is in a top 15-20 spot along with falcon, wario and yoshi: all good characters with a very clear weakness... but that's another story

let's remain skeptical as results come because i remember than roy also won something shortly after his release and his potential was blown out of proportion, resulting in a stupid overconfidence in the character

 

[TMNTSSB4]

hahahahahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

oh man. uhhh...ah man...hsivfdkivln

I can't.

TFW mods be telling you to behave cuz you are one of the most influential posters in the competitive community but sumone comes at you with some nonsense.

Sometimes being a basic, standard, or or balanced out(any can be used)character is alright. Pit being basic doesn't make him a boring character(Mario used to be the same in everygame he's been in, but people still played him...even if they thought he had a boring personality compared to Luigi)

Also, it looks like you tried being a smart ass yet you didn't spell "someone" right. That in itself shows that I probably shouldn't continue to bother with you.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Please do not bother with me.

You would be doing me a great service.

 

[Asdioh]

Since I couldn't find them anywhere, I did the best I could and made 1.1.3 runspeed comparisons for Mewtwo and Kirby.

The more I use Cloud, the better he seems to be. This is the complete opposite experience I felt from using and observing Roy. I think Cloud is the real deal in terms of his frame data and power, and he has enough tools to mix up his defense when attempting recovery even without limit break (nair, uair, blade beam). Day 1 Cloud winning tournaments is not the least surprising.

This is also one of the only recent posts in this thread I wanted to respond to! Cloud felt mediocre at first, but the more I played him, the deeper his gameplay felt, and I feel he has some good potential. He has some crappy oversights by the dev team, with people seeming to fall out of cross slash, and possibly falling out of Jab with high rage? And I used Dsmash literally one time on my friend on release day, and he teched it, so there are definitely a few problematic moves, but overall, he seems good. Despite the Melee-Roy recovery.


Also, Kirby looks like he got a ton of buffs on the patch notes, but the only one that's really anything is the Upthrow buff, which is actually quite nice.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Please do not bother with me.

You would be doing me a great service.

And you'll be doing me a service by knowing something about a character that you claim to be boring.

"Win Win" right there

 

[TTTTTsd]

Watching people play vs Komo's cloud was painful, they let him recover for free almost EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I feel if people made any sort of correct attempt to edgeguard him, things would have been different.

Not once did I see anyone try to put a hitbox out on the ledge to clip his upb, they ran off stage to try and intercept him and got faired or just missed. The rest stood on stage without a clue of what to do. I felt Komos camping for limit break was obnoxious and I know to ban SV vs Cloud every time now.

It's gonna look more and more like that once Cloud players start aiming for the auto snap/safest recovery routes on BF and FD (there are ways to snap without throwing your vulnerable hitbox over the ledge actually). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnsor774z5w Granted he's still vulnerable, but I've been using this to optimize my recovery and it's looking good so far. Technically his recovery is probably at its worst at Smashville since then he has to aim perfectly for the ledge as opposed to doing the things shown in this video.

Stage bans vs. Cloud are very important yes, ideally you want to try and keep him off of Smashville but then Dreamland 64 and Battlefield are very annoying because he can still use the platforms to Limit camp because of how easy it is to cancel Limit Charge, and of course his platform chase game.....oh, and yes, Limit camping is the future of Cloud IMO. It's something he does well on all stages, least effective on FD (he has to actually push you away to build limit there).

 

[LancerStaff]

hahahahahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

oh man. uhhh...ah man...hsivfdkivln

I can't.

TFW mods be telling you to behave cuz you are one of the most influential posters in the competitive community but sumone comes at you with some nonsense.

Don't think it's exactly fair to call out a new guy for not knowing your history... Or for continuing to insult the character he plays for no apparent reason.

 

[san.]

It's gonna look more and more like that once Cloud players start aiming for the auto snap/safest recovery routes on BF and FD (there are ways to snap without throwing your vulnerable hitbox over the ledge actually). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnsor774z5w Granted he's still vulnerable, but I've been using this to optimize my recovery and it's looking good so far. Technically his recovery is probably at its worst at Smashville since then he has to aim perfectly for the ledge as opposed to doing the things shown in this video.

Stage bans vs. Cloud are very important yes, ideally you want to try and keep him off of Smashville but then Dreamland 64 and Battlefield are very annoying because he can still use the platforms to Limit camp because of how easy it is to cancel Limit Charge, and of course his platform chase game.....

I don't think the early snap part is that useful outside of preventing you from being too vulnerable if you double jump early. If you're slightly off, you go the full upB above the ledge as well.

As far as recovery is concerned, apart from covering yourself with nair and sometimes uair, neutral B lifts you up once (and you maintain full aerial control during blade beam, also useful with a short hop), and you can also lift slightly with sideB as many times as needed. If you hit the opponent with sideB, you even lift even more for the first 2 hits without much risk for the final one as well. These options help a bit when covering yourself and preventing the opponent from camping the edge.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Don't think it's exactly fair to call out a new guy for not knowing your history... Or for continuing to insult the character he plays for no apparent reason.

His opinion doesn't really matter much if he can't even spell "someone"...or wasn't(most likely)obsessed with Ryu cause of his combo game...which Bayonetta seems to have more of now.

 

[Mario766]

Watching people play vs Komo's cloud was painful, they let him recover for free almost EVERY SINGLE TIME.
I feel if people made any sort of correct attempt to edgeguard him, things would have been different.

Not once did I see anyone try to put a hitbox out on the ledge to clip his upb, they ran off stage to try and intercept him and got faired or just missed. The rest stood on stage without a clue of what to do. I felt Komos camping for limit break was obnoxious and I know to ban SV vs Cloud every time now.

Ban SV

Leave BF/DL open


Good luck m8.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

This guy gets it when people call for nerfs and stuff. People beg for nerfs because they are sick of the top tiers (pick one) when it kinda is their character design.

Hence Nintendo won't nerf sheik because she is overwhelming but she fits her archetype of being a ninja with fast moves but weak moves, full of combos, projectiles and just safety and evasion you'd expect from one. What part of her moveset doesn't fit that? You can say her kill setups mean her moves aren't weak but NONE of her tools in neutral kill before 180%. That's her character design.

You can still apply reasonable nerfs that fit into the characters intended design, though.

For example, Sheik having high reward from Vanish and Bouncing Fish? Not actually an issue, nor are the kill set-ups into them. Her relative safety when throwing these moves out is a bit too much, though. Yes Sheik is intended to be a low commitment character in some aspects, but having the level of risk scale properly with the level of reward would only make sense and not interrupt her amazing neutral game. For example, you could increase the landing lag from vanish (and remove that silly windbow while you're at it) and lock her into Bouncing Fish longer so she can't act out of it so quickly.

As for Needles, they already were decent projectiles in the past for various reasons. You could use the charge cancel to shift your direction in mid-air, harass off-stage characters with them from a distance and possibly gimp recoveries too (more relevant in Melee cause of the gravity, but the point is still there). They provided easy, safe damage, at the cost of not really giving you much positional advantage when your opponent is on-stage. Now they do less damage, but the knockback scaling means you can force characters into a tumble state at high percents. That's a MASSIVE boost to her long range game and IMO is excessively safe for how much utility they retain, such as comboing into Bouncing Fish or being useful for momentum shifting.

Toning down some of these characteristics likely wouldn't be enough to take Sheik off the top, but they would help make the match-up more manageable for many of the characters that struggle with her. It'd also be quicker and cleaner than the slow power creep that's been happening with Smash 4's patches, at least IMO.

 

[Nobie]

The increased hitstop on Kirby's fair looks like it might make a significant difference too. How safe is it now, spaced or unspaced?

 

[Big-Cat]

Did the thought ever occur, that Sakurai buffs or nerfs to make sure a chars pros and cons are in line with their archetype.

So erasing weaknesses is NOT the goal. And it shouldnt be. Thats stupid.

The goal should be and seems to be to make sure the characters gameplan syncs up with their data. In this way the weaknesses check those strengths to HOPEFULLY give each character a viable gameplan without being overtuned.

Kirby had good combos but garbz mobility and was thus outzoned easily. Got mobility buffs.

Mewtwo was a glass cannon, with alot of glass and not alot of cannon. Mobility buffs as well as frame data changes. Now he fits his archetype.

Lucario also suffered from lack of mobility despite good reward on hit/.grab. Mobility buffs give him a much more workable neutral.

Bowser filled the same role as DK except there was no reason to pick him over DK. Easy solution. Now you have two grapplers with slightly diff movesets. You like viable heavy grapplers? Now you have your choice of two.

Pre-patch Diddy had amazing stage control with the power of a heavy. Definitely an overtuned character. Tone down that uair tho and now you have a character that is still very strong but not off the scale in terms of reward for how easy it is for him to get a grab.

I could keep going, but i think you get the idea.

Finally, someone gets it.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Apparently Pit got his bair buffed, lag reduction

And I found some stuff about Dark Pit and his Electroshock
1.1.3

• Electroshock/Electrocut Arm launch angle changed: 50 → 43, sending opponents offstage at a slightly better angle.
• Grounded Electroshock Arm damage increased by 0.5%: 11.5% → 12%.
• Grounded Electroshock Arm/Electrocut Arm has slightly increased base knockback: 60 → 67.
• Grounded Electroshock Arm has slightly decreased knockback growth: 100 → 99.
• Both aerial versions of Electroshock and Electrocut Arm have slightly decreased knockback growth: 60 → 58.

LancerStaff does this explain why Pit's Upperdash can kill Cloud quicker?

 

[Mario766]

We can already tell that Sheik will stay exactly as she is. There won't be any real nerfs to her safety, needles won't be nerfed, F-Air will stay as it is. She's meant to be incredibly safe, quick but punishable when she DOES get hit, with fast falling speed she gets juggled and combo'd rather easily. She's meant to get stage control, be incredibly safe and rack up damage safely and efficiently, with low damage attacks that are

1) Quick. She has one of the best frame data lists in the game, the moves come out fast and ends fast.

2) Weak. Her moves don't do a lot of damage, which sets up for combos and strings so she does damage. It's almost like chip damage, let it happen too long and you'll be bleeding heavily.

Her KO power isn't that great. She has SOME options for killing, but they are hard to hit. Vanish requires a hard read or an air dodge most of the time, and her smashes, bar tipper up smash, are weak at best. Up Air only really works on heavies unless she reads your option out of a throw. Sakurai won't change this. She's not meant to kill you early UNLESS you make the mistake.

Sheik is the safe nimble low damage character

ZSS is the high reward, risky character. You HAVE to play risky to get her full reward, but when she gets it it's incredibly strong.

Rosalina has a brick wall that is meant to stuff anything that comes into her space.

Mario is the all-rounder that doesn't have any real weaknesses.

It's only when something comes that makes the style oppressive to the point where there isn't any other options besides playing THAT character that Sakurai comes to nerf them.

Examples are Sheik getting damage nerfs, she was getting TOO MUCH REWARD. When you are safe and have good reward, there's a problem.

The other big example is Diddy, who ignored your play style and killed you so early it didn't matter because he had

1) Good reward on his moves. His moves did a lot of damage which gave him massive reward on hit
2) Safety. His moves are like Sheik, they are quick, end fast and have good range.
3) Killed early.

Hoo Hah

Nuff said.


Anyone still praying for top tiers to get nerfed needs to stop dreaming. It hasn't happened in xxxxx number of patches. It won't happen now. ZSS won't get nerfed. She's literally been UNTOUCHED in every patch. Mario won't get nerfed, same story. The game is getting better and better balance wise with every patch, I'm very pleased with how the game is turning out.

 

[meleebrawler]

In Kirby's case, it was not only poor mobility but also very poor range. You wouldn't give someone like Ganondorf or Robin a mobility buff with their huge, powerful moves (and very damaging projectiles in Robin's case).

Mewtwo's mobility buffs also allow him to better implement his evasive punish game too. He still suffers when he's caught but it's noticeably easier to avoid that situation now.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

We can already tell that Sheik will stay exactly as she is. There won't be any real nerfs to her safety, needles won't be nerfed, F-Air will stay as it is. She's meant to be incredibly safe, quick but punishable when she DOES get hit, with fast falling speed she gets juggled and combo'd rather easily. She's meant to get stage control, be incredibly safe and rack up damage safely and efficiently, with low damage attacks that are

1) Quick. She has one of the best frame data lists in the game, the moves come out fast and ends fast.

2) Weak. Her moves don't do a lot of damage, which sets up for combos and strings so she does damage. It's almost like chip damage, let it happen too long and you'll be bleeding heavily.

Her KO power isn't that great. She has SOME options for killing, but they are hard to hit. Vanish requires a hard read or an air dodge most of the time, and her smashes, bar tipper up smash, are weak at best. Up Air only really works on heavies unless she reads your option out of a throw. Sakurai won't change this. She's not meant to kill you early UNLESS you make the mistake.

Sheik is the safe nimble low damage character

ZSS is the high reward, risky character. You HAVE to play risky to get her full reward, but when she gets it it's incredibly strong.

Rosalina has a brick wall that is meant to stuff anything that comes into her space.

Mario is the all-rounder that doesn't have any real weaknesses.

It's only when something comes that makes the style oppressive to the point where there isn't any other options besides playing THAT character that Sakurai comes to nerf them.

Examples are Sheik getting damage nerfs, she was getting TOO MUCH REWARD. When you are safe and have good reward, there's a problem.

The other big example is Diddy, who ignored your play style and killed you so early it didn't matter because he had

1) Good reward on his moves. His moves did a lot of damage which gave him massive reward on hit
2) Safety. His moves are like Sheik, they are quick, end fast and have good range.
3) Killed early.

Hoo Hah

Nuff said.


Anyone still praying for top tiers to get nerfed needs to stop dreaming. It hasn't happened in xxxxx number of patches. It won't happen now. ZSS won't get nerfed. She's literally been UNTOUCHED in every patch. Mario won't get nerfed, same story. The game is getting better and better balance wise with every patch, I'm very pleased with how the game is turning out.

Zero Suit was nerfed a bit in patch 1.0.4

 

[TurboLink]

We can already tell that Sheik will stay exactly as she is. There won't be any real nerfs to her safety, needles won't be nerfed, F-Air will stay as it is. She's meant to be incredibly safe, quick but punishable when she DOES get hit, with fast falling speed she gets juggled and combo'd rather easily. She's meant to get stage control, be incredibly safe and rack up damage safely and efficiently, with low damage attacks that are

1) Quick. She has one of the best frame data lists in the game, the moves come out fast and ends fast.

2) Weak. Her moves don't do a lot of damage, which sets up for combos and strings so she does damage. It's almost like chip damage, let it happen too long and you'll be bleeding heavily.

Her KO power isn't that great. She has SOME options for killing, but they are hard to hit. Vanish requires a hard read or an air dodge most of the time, and her smashes, bar tipper up smash, are weak at best. Up Air only really works on heavies unless she reads your option out of a throw. Sakurai won't change this. She's not meant to kill you early UNLESS you make the mistake.

Sheik is the safe nimble low damage character

ZSS is the high reward, risky character. You HAVE to play risky to get her full reward, but when she gets it it's incredibly strong.

Rosalina has a brick wall that is meant to stuff anything that comes into her space.

Mario is the all-rounder that doesn't have any real weaknesses.

It's only when something comes that makes the style oppressive to the point where there isn't any other options besides playing THAT character that Sakurai comes to nerf them.

Examples are Sheik getting damage nerfs, she was getting TOO MUCH REWARD. When you are safe and have good reward, there's a problem.

The other big example is Diddy, who ignored your play style and killed you so early it didn't matter because he had

1) Good reward on his moves. His moves did a lot of damage which gave him massive reward on hit
2) Safety. His moves are like Sheik, they are quick, end fast and have good range.
3) Killed early.

Hoo Hah

Nuff said.


Anyone still praying for top tiers to get nerfed needs to stop dreaming. It hasn't happened in xxxxx number of patches. It won't happen now. ZSS won't get nerfed. She's literally been UNTOUCHED in every patch. Mario won't get nerfed, same story. The game is getting better and better balance wise with every patch, I'm very pleased with how the game is turning out.

Zero Suit Samus has not been untouched in every patch though.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Zero_Suit_Samus_(SSB4)#Update_history

 

[Mario766]

Welcome to NOT doing my research.

But it was on Paralyzer and air dodge lag being standardized.

ehhhh

Not really big changes, it was also the same as up tilt being nerfed .8 percent on Mario. It wasn't really anything.













/hate my life


/s

 

[S_B]

Good out of shield options are still useful, but neither Charizard nor Bowser actually have fast enough out of shield options to be relevant in those matchups.

It's a good thing people play more than just top tiers in tournaments, then.

Hence Nintendo won't nerf sheik because she is overwhelming but she fits her archetype of being a ninja with fast moves but weak moves, full of combos, projectiles and just safety and evasion you'd expect from one. What part of her moveset doesn't fit that? You can say her kill setups mean her moves aren't weak but NONE of her tools in neutral kill before 180%. That's her character design.

First of, sweet spotted Usmash kills well before 180%.

Second, Sheik doesn't get her kills in neutral. She gets them off the side with a well placed bouncing fish or off the top with a 50/50, both of which also kill well before 180%, and both of which tend to be extremely reliable.

Third, no, you cannot justify a character being overpowered by saying "It's their archetype!". Were that the case, Mewtwo would be unbeatable and would kill everyone in one hit because that IS his archetype. Sheik can still have weaknesses and, other than having to get people into kill traps to reliably KO, she doesn't have any.

Honestly, if I was going to nerf anything of Sheik's, it'd be her recovery. Bouncing fish + the ridiculous distance on vanish + a walljump means that Sheik is pretty much guaranteed to recover unless she hits the blast zone. Though adding another frame or two of landing lag to the tinder combo would be nice as well...

Anyone still praying for top tiers to get nerfed needs to stop dreaming. It hasn't happened in xxxxx number of patches. It won't happen now. ZSS won't get nerfed. She's literally been UNTOUCHED in every patch. Mario won't get nerfed, same story. The game is getting better and better balance wise with every patch, I'm very pleased with how the game is turning out.

I avoid saying things like this because, when it DOES happen, you wind up with a lot of crow to eat.

Also, who's calling nerfs for Mario? Mario is a very well balanced character...

 

[LancerStaff]

Apparently Pit got his bair buffed, lag reduction

And I found some stuff about Dark Pit and his Electroshock
1.1.3

• Electroshock/Electrocut Arm launch angle changed: 50 → 43, sending opponents offstage at a slightly better angle.
• Grounded Electroshock Arm damage increased by 0.5%: 11.5% → 12%.
• Grounded Electroshock Arm/Electrocut Arm has slightly increased base knockback: 60 → 67.
• Grounded Electroshock Arm has slightly decreased knockback growth: 100 → 99.
• Both aerial versions of Electroshock and Electrocut Arm have slightly decreased knockback growth: 60 → 58.

LancerStaff does this explain why Pit's Upperdash can kill Cloud quicker?

You didn't need to post this here... Bair didn't get a landing lag buff, like I said on the Pit forums after you posted this. In some situations Upperdash can kill quicker then Electroshock, but most of the time Electroshock wins. It's just a positional thing, and of course since Electroshock is kinda janky you'll sometimes hit somebody the opposite direction; Meaning there's potential to triggering this intentionally and essentially give the opponent no safe place to hide. Remember, potential. Once I get the rage Electroshock numbers and some numbers with DI I'll look into it.

 

[Mario766]

People like to ***** about Mario's Up-Smash and call for nerfs.


Kinda like how people wanted Mac nerfs.


People see something that destroys them and they whine.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

You didn't need to post this here...Bair didn't get a landing lag buff, like I said on the Pit forums after you posted this. In some situations Upperdash can kill quicker then Electroshock, but most of the time Electroshock wins. It's just a positional thing, and of course since Electroshock is kinda janky you'll sometimes hit somebody the opposite direction; Meaning there's potential to triggering this intentionally and essentially give the opponent no safe place to hide. Remember, potential. Once I get the rage Electroshock numbers and some numbers with DI I'll look into it.

I actually didn't know you said so until after I posted my last comment.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Yeah guys, heavies should never ever get buffs to their mobility or their safety.

Heaven forfend, they might actually end up good.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I'm fairly confident there's character archetype involved in most decisions, there's an enormous amount of effort put into the artistry, style and feel of the characters.

As for balance, no, that should be a science. I give some credit to the balance of Smash 4 but not overmuch, there are a lot of obviously poor design choices and rather than fixing, and by "fixing" I do mean nerfing, they have opted to stick to their guns. I have been thoroughly unimpressed with the vast majority of the patches from a game design standpoint, and I wouldn't read too deeply into them.

It is fine and dandy to say Shiek should be a "super nimble low damage ninja" but the character has no punish windows and rarely trades because of extreme frame data and hitbox to hurtbox size/angle priority. It's a broken design, by definition.
This game has an invisible, un-reactable full stage charge and release projectile side by side with a homing missile that comes out in 20 frames, doesn't really home, tons of endlag, has a tiny hitbox which can be cut out of the air and moves at just the right speed to be useless in zoning.
That's just one example, but there are many other of elements within the game that looked at with a critical angle reveal that it's mostly art, and not science that is guiding the decisions.

There's a grave danger in trying to read the mind of a designer.
If I were to read the trophies for Samus:
"Samus's up smash attack, Cover Fire, fires five small blasts overhead, making it great for countering incoming aerial attacks." That's almost laughable since it's still the worst up-smash in the game.
Likewise ZSS:
"Without her Power Suit, Samus Aran may not have her usual strength, specials moves or over-powered arm cannon, but her Jet Boots definitely kick things up a notch in their own way."
My conclusions would be that he's mentally ill.

 

[S_B]

People like to ***** about Mario's Up-Smash and call for nerfs.

I've never actually seen anyone call for a nerf of Mario's Usmash. Not saying they don't, just never seen it.

It's a very good move, but it's a move that can be beaten by not challenging it and being aware of when Mario is probably planning to use it.

Do they also complain about Luigi, Dr. Mario, G&W, and Bowser's respective Usmashes? All of them likewise have invulnerability of some kind.

There's a grave danger in trying to read the mind of a designer.
If I were to read the trophies for Samus:
"Samus's up smash attack, Cover Fire, fires five small blasts overhead, making it great for countering incoming aerial attacks." That's almost laughable since it's still the worst up-smash in the game.
Likewise ZSS:
"Without her Power Suit, Samus Aran may not have her usual strength, specials moves or over-powered arm cannon, but her Jet Boots definitely kick things up a notch in their own way."
My conclusions would be that he's mentally ill.

TBH, I'm left scratching my head by some of Sakurai's choices. It's quite clear that he (or maybe the people at Namco) ARE paying attention to the competitive scene, not just because they keep adding options to the game that are good for competitive players but out of reach of casuals, but because they toned down reflect/absorption moves in doubles in the latest patch. This directly benefits competitive doubles because that's primarily where team attack is on.

But then Sheik and ZSS get left alone, despite many tournaments typically starting with a myriad of characters but usually coming down to some permutation of Sheik and ZSS. On the occasion that a mid tier makes it, they usually get rofflestomped by a Sheik or ZSS.

Are there just no good Sheiks or ZSSes in Japan or something? That might be where Sakurai is paying attention to balance...

 

[Mario766]

I've seen people complain about G&W's Up Smash


People complain about everything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

People even complain about other people complaining.

 

[Radical Larry]

This is my impression of Link post patch.
http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes.425921/

The bad:
Dair getting a ground only hitbox takes away some combos like Bomb thrown down>footstool>Dair lock>Fsmash.

The good: Link got significant buffs to one area he needed them: killing.

His up launching Dsmash1 now hits at a steeper angle and harder. Fsmash 2 also hits slightly harder. These aren't huge but Link gets better reward on hit.

UpB links hits better. Consider the implications with Link's Dthrow; he has one more option to chase opponents in the air and possibly kill. IDK how escapable it is but I have had much better success landing every hit. This also buffs Link's intercepting game; he can SH Dair/Fair/Nair offstage then upB to the ledge (or past it) for a significant wall of pain offstage.

Fair got massive power buffs. The damage for both hits is improved and the BKB for hit 1 is doubled. Bomb>Fair 1 kills almost as early as Toon Link's (both hit frame 14 btw). Killing at a lower % means Fair is easier to chain from bombs/Dthrow/Dtilt because the opponent is launched closer. Considering how safe Fair is (good shield stun, range, cuts 2 times to catch dodges, 12 frames landing lag) this is significant.

Consider these when thinking buffs on characters like Mewtwo will switch the Link MU in their favor. IMO Link is planted in mid-tier instead of hanging on the lower edge of it. Link still has terrible MUs with relevant top tiers like Sheik, ZSS and Fox. His slow frame data and mobility are the same. But he has better, more reliable chains and killing options for every MU now. It's sort of like saying 'instead of a -1, Link now has a -0.5 MU'. Not enough to drastically sway anything but nice all around.

This is a pretty good analysis, but you tend to have forgotten some things in the good and a bit of a mistake; D-Air's meteor has a special hitbox on the ground now that removes the ability to tech it, sending opponents horizontally and (to the good) linking the first hit into the second thanks to the increased hurtstun on opponents, but not Link.

D-Air has a buff too in the fact that the second bounce upon hit will deal 11% damage thanks to the damage buff. This allows a total of 26% damage on an opponent or an opponent's shield, and since Link is relatively safe if he can bounce the second time, Link can certainly do some real damage now.

The same applies to shield pressure against opponents with Link's F-Air, which deals a total of 24% damage if both hits connect. Now Link can have some trouble recovering from landing lag, but it's a very safe ledge getup option for Link now, and both hits are just deadly. It's also a pretty good edge-guarding tool, capable of defeating opponents extremely early (Mario can be edge-guarded from it as early as 30% damage). This makes Link's edge-guarding one of the best, since he can use another aerial far better now.

MU Analysis

Spoiler

Now for my MU analysis. All of Link's buffs surely do make him one opponent to really worry about, especially as a swordsman character. Now I can argue against your statement Link's MU against Sheik is terrible; he's actually pretty even with her right now, but I can say that he still struggles against the likes of characters like and , but a lot of them are better than they once were. A character new to his favorable matchups is surprisingly , but by 55:45, and it's all thanks to Link's earlier killing F-Air and shield pressure against Falcon. Additions that Link has had will affect his MUs very well for him and it's likely he will rise up to the following placements, and no higher, no lower: 22 (Low B Tier) to 28 (C Tier), beating Toon Link and closing down toward Ike's placement. Rizen, if you say Link is planted in Middle Tier, Link is around these spots, as 28 is the direct middle and nowhere lower, and 22 is a decently middle spot.

 

[DanGR]

I'm not so convinced we won't see anymore Sheik or ZSS nerfs in the next patch. I get the impression the dev team has been focusing on one or at most just a few aspects of the game in each of the recent patches. Devs do this in a lot of games. Some of those aspects include shield changes and balance around that, custom specials, and tuning up underwhelming characters that don't fit their archetype very well.

Who's to say we won't see a follow-up balance patch for the shieldstun and hitlag mechanic changes? ZSS would surely be a candidate for removing a bit of safety. Sheik could easily be impacted by something else, more indirectly, as well. Recovery safety patch? Resetting-to-neutral patch? Plenty of categories exist.

 

[outfoxd]

I'm wondering if some design choices are tied into not just archetypes but perception of the character. Using DH, maybe he doesn't get buffs because he was only ever meant to be an annoyance, like when he laughs at you in his game. He was never supposed to be able to really beat you up.

Iunno, spitballing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Wanted to share this as it's kinda cool. The results from the very first /r//smashbros tier list till now, showing how characters have moved. It's really curious to see how the general perceptions of characters have kept changing. Thoughts?

 

[TurboLink]

Wanted to share this as it's kinda cool. The results from the very first /r//smashbros tier list till now, showing how characters have moved. It's really curious to see how the general perceptions of characters have kept changing. Thoughts?

Uh, I don't think that many people are going to really sit down and read that thoroughly.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm fairly confident there's character archetype involved in most decisions, there's an enormous amount of effort put into the artistry, style and feel of the characters.

As for balance, no, that should be a science. I give some credit to the balance of Smash 4 but not overmuch, there are a lot of obviously poor design choices and rather than fixing, and by "fixing" I do mean nerfing, they have opted to stick to their guns. I have been thoroughly unimpressed with the vast majority of the patches from a game design standpoint, and I wouldn't read too deeply into them.

It is fine and dandy to say Shiek should be a "super nimble low damage ninja" but the character has no punish windows and rarely trades because of extreme frame data and hitbox to hurtbox size/angle priority. It's a broken design, by definition.
This game has an invisible, un-reactable full stage charge and release projectile side by side with a homing missile that comes out in 20 frames, doesn't really home, tons of endlag, has a tiny hitbox which can be cut out of the air and moves at just the right speed to be useless in zoning.
That's just one example, but there are many other of elements within the game that looked at with a critical angle reveal that it's mostly art, and not science that is guiding the decisions.

There's a grave danger in trying to read the mind of a designer.
If I were to read the trophies for Samus:
"Samus's up smash attack, Cover Fire, fires five small blasts overhead, making it great for countering incoming aerial attacks." That's almost laughable since it's still the worst up-smash in the game.
Likewise ZSS:
"Without her Power Suit, Samus Aran may not have her usual strength, specials moves or over-powered arm cannon, but her Jet Boots definitely kick things up a notch in their own way."
My conclusions would be that he's mentally ill.

Characters that are better or worse in a fighting game than their background or portrayal implies happens all the time. Rufus from SFIV is seen as a fat moron who learned his techniques from watching movies, yet he's quite effective competitively. Similar with Yang/Yun, and it wouldn't be a huge surprise if Rainbow Mika turned out to be high tier in SFV despite her in-game stats being somewhat lacking. Conversely Gouken, Ryu and Ken's sensei and the guy who pretty much single-handedly turned a martial art built for assassination into something else while retaining it's effectiveness, is a middling fighter when playable, and even his "boss" form isn't all that hard (relatively).

ZSS may be weaker than Samus in their own game/canon, but in Smash her fighting style just happens to be more effective overall. It's not an injustice or disservice, it's just how things are (not to mention game Samus would be hilariously broken in Smash. Not even Megaman gets away with full-screen pellets). Or Mewtwo, I don't think people would be half as hard on him if he didn't have a reputation for being nearly unstoppable in his own series, creating many unrealistic expectations.

Trying to balance a roster based on power level gets you early MvC titles "balance".

Missiles travel the way they do because Relentless Missiles are a thing. Mii Gunner, who doesn't have missile customs gets one that's a middleground between the two.

 

[Radical Larry]

Wanted to share this as it's kinda cool. The results from the very first /r//smashbros tier list till now, showing how characters have moved. It's really curious to see how the general perceptions of characters have kept changing. Thoughts?

My brain hurts from even seeing the November 2015 Tier List.
Then again, it's Reddit.

 

[Mario766]

Another thing is that the idea for this game isn't based on the competitive side of things. That's the most likely answer for why some things don't get changed. Some designs for characters are just better for competitive play than others, unfortunately.

 

[meleebrawler]

Another thing is that the idea for this game isn't based on the competitive side of things. That's the most likely answer for why some things don't get changed. Some designs for characters are just better for competitive play than others, unfortunately.

inb4 LancerStaff FFA balance rant in 3, 2, 1...

 

[Nobie]

Maybe Samus, Zelda, Jigglypuff, etc. are considered worse characters but not an absolute emergency to fix. Also, every patch so far has avoiding implementing changes in every single character. They usually come in bursts for a select few, and this past one was no exception.

I'm going to restate this, but people tend to get too obsessed with removing their characters' weaknesses. Like if you took all of things Samus players complain about and removed them, you'd get a heavy, floaty character with excellent combo potential, multiple ranged weapons that can KO (people love to complain about Super Missiles not killing), and a variety of long-range, short duration, reliable hitboxes.

As for Mewtwo's balance and the idea of a glass cannon, it makes sense why they were so hesitant about how to tune Mewtwo. He would be a fast, powerful character with excellent combos and kill power, with his only weakness being light weight, and if you tacked on superior frame data...you would basically get Melee Fox.

By the way, this might be a bit off-topic, but I swear that the improved AI that comes with each patch is derived from For Glory behavior. Not only am I seeing CPU level 9 ROB beep booping, but in the past I've seen computers roll back and forth after getting a kill, and now have seen the continuous crouching motion that is usually either used as a taunt or to mean "something is wrong."

Basically, how we do as players online might very well determine how the AI is upgraded.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Maybe Samus, Zelda, Jigglypuff, etc. are considered worse characters but not an absolute emergency to fix. Also, every patch so far has avoiding implementing changes in every single character. They usually come in bursts for a select few, and this past one was no exception.

I'm going to restate this, but people tend to get too obsessed with removing their characters' weaknesses. Like if you took all of things Samus players complain about and removed them, you'd get a heavy, floaty character with excellent combo potential, multiple ranged weapons that can KO (people love to complain about Super Missiles not killing), and a variety of long-range, short duration, reliable hitboxes.

As for Mewtwo's balance and the idea of a glass cannon, it makes sense why they were so hesitant about how to tune Mewtwo. He would be a fast, powerful character with excellent combos and kill power, with his only weakness being light weight, and if you tacked on superior frame data...you would basically get Melee Fox.

By the way, this might be a bit off-topic, but I swear that the improved AI that comes with each patch is derived from For Glory behavior. Not only am I seeing CPU level 9 ROB beep booping, but in the past I've seen computers roll back and forth after getting a kill, and now have seen the continuous crouching motion that is usually either used as a taunt or to mean "something is wrong."

Basically, how we do as players online might very well determine how the AI is upgraded.

I think Mewtwo is pretty great right now. They really gave him a good patch. He is just, balanced now.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm wondering if some design choices are tied into not just archetypes but perception of the character. Using DH, maybe he doesn't get buffs because he was only ever meant to be an annoyance, like when he laughs at you in his game. He was never supposed to be able to really beat you up.

Iunno, spitballing.

I find it more likely they're just afraid of releasing another Brawl Olimar onto the world... They're afraid if they buff DH to be usable and then two years later we find some big tech and he's undisputed top tier or counters half the cast then there's probably not a lot they can do about it.

Not that I think that, but that's my guess at their logic.

inb4 LancerStaff FFA balance rant in 3, 2, 1...

...Why am I going to rant about somebody agreeing with me? I mean, really now.