Character Chart Rediscussion Vs. Marth

[MythTrainerInfinity]

What the chart says: +1 Marth's favor

What the Lucarios think: 0 Even

I'm using this thread to gather points together why we think Marth is even, so we can get this discussion wrapped up soon as we can.

Pros for us:

• Marth's FAir is great, but due to its likely overusage it will become stale and Aura Spheres will will beat it earlier.
• Our Up Tilt and UAir tends to put Marth in an unfavorable position and we can heckle him while he's in the air above us far better than he can do to us.
• Our FAir/BAir beats his FAir if we are slightly above him.
• Marth's FTilt and Jabs are somewhat lacking, so he has to rely on air assaults to rack up a lot of damage.
• Unless if Marth is tippering everything we will probably not die until 120% and at that point we can kill him when he is around 80%.
• If we DI out of Dancing Blade (DI towards him if in the air) we get to do some nasty things to him.

Cons for us:

• Marth is hard to string since he can get out of our Jabs and FAir strings with Up B.
• If he grabs us he will likely get us in a string.
• His FAir has high priority.
• Can hassle and/or gimp us offstage.
• Great range and low cooldown on a lot of his air attacks.
• Up B is a great interrupting move that can also kill.

So thoughts?

 

[RT]

Even even even.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Even even even.

Vexen vexen vexen.

I agree its even or very slight disadvantage for us.

 

[Browny]

Youre going about this the wrong way. You will NEVER convince marths any mu is less advantaged than what they declared in 08 by comparing traits since they forever operate under the assumption that their spacing is perfect and that the other character won't camp their *** off and wait for marth to mess up. See, diddy mu in theory and in reality.

idk a better way to do this... yet

 

[Steam]

but diddy is a disadv for marth now....

dun be that way browny D:

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

80% is pretty low for Marth to die unless we max out on Aura.

Without tippers I can see us living til 140-150% on average.

 

[Browny]

but diddy is a disadv for marth now....

dun be that way browny D:

And how many YEARS did it take of marths getting beaten by diddy kongs ALL OVER THE WORLD until it was finally agreed to be a disadvantage? Were talking 2 full years at least. Lucario isnt anywhere near that status. To get over the 08 theorycraft with this matchup from a marth mainer is going to take until 2013 if lucarios start beating marths regularly.

Seriously, arguing like
L: We can do THIS
M: we we can do THAT
(repeat ad nauseum for every possible scenario)

will get no where. Thats how its been since brawl came out and look at the matchup chart, clearly nothing has changed despite marths results showing for years that clearly he is not as dominant as his matchups would suggest.

 

[Steam]

Marth hasn't been beating anyone.

though at the same time I can't think of lucarios taking down any marths.

though I do know Trela went uber close with mikeHaze.

 

[culexus・wau]

I won't get involved in this for the same reasons as browny and then some.

its not going to work and even if we change it it won't solve anything ahhhhhhhhh

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

If you don't like it Browny, suggest something we can go off of.

 

[Browny]

Well, Might I suggest bring in marths mains who legitimately want to discuss the game in 2011, not for the sole purpose of WE HAVE TO HAVE GOOD MATCHUPS SO WE CAN BE HIGH TIER. You know the sort of people im talking about. We want people who realise no matter what the result of this re-discussion is, no match in the future will EVER be affected by the outcome of this. whether its even, or marts wins/loses +/-2, every match from here on in will have the exact same result.

So now once youve filtered out the idiots, then discuss meaningful things like easy is it for each character to maintain the lead once they gain it? For example, if marth is in the lead and he plans on keeping it by walling lucario out repeatedly with fair, what sort of risk is he running by taking cheap damage with aura spheres closing the gap because marth is not attacking? Dont ever assume it will always be a fair vs fair battle, consider all options. Consider the fact that marths best method of walling out lucario, in order to continue damaging him, is also the most likely approach to get fsmashed.

Then think of what happens when both characters get to high %. This REALLY ISNT that simple as 'marth generally kills earlier than lucario' because you MUST factor in evasiveness, and the risk of going for that KO. For more examples, how much risk does lucario put himself in to get a KO? Its actually VERY low by brawl standards. fsmash and AS can be used as anti-approaches to KO while marth uses his punishes and aerial traps to KO. If both characters are at 110% and in neutral position, both are well within KO % of each other, theres a lot to consider. Marth MUST be the one going in for the kill otherwise he runs the risk of taking a cheap death by a 0 risk AS snipe or fsmash and dying. Suddenly marths best methods of KO'ing are out of the question, nothing he has is guaranteed until Lucario is out of the neutral situation. Fsmash isnt so easy to dodge when you are forced to get in its range, relying on an unsafe move. Conversely, how does lucario land the KO on marth once marth has the stock advantage?

So many things to consider... Dont ever forget the most important aspect of all; taking stocks. Who cares if marth has combos, can punish fsmash with db or if Lucario can camp marth with AS. Whats most important is how hard it is to take the stock at ko % and how well each character can do so without dying themselves.

And stuff

 

[culexus・wau]

Well, Might I suggest bring in marths mains who legitimately want to discuss the game in 2011, not for the sole purpose of WE HAVE TO HAVE GOOD MATCHUPS SO WE CAN BE HIGH TIER. You know the sort of people im talking about. We want people who realise no matter what the result of this re-discussion is, no match in the future will EVER be affected by the outcome of this. whether its even, or marts wins/loses +/-2, every match from here on in will have the exact same result.

So now once youve filtered out the idiots, then discuss meaningful things like easy is it for each character to maintain the lead once they gain it? For example, if marth is in the lead and he plans on keeping it by walling lucario out repeatedly with fair, what sort of risk is he running by taking cheap damage with aura spheres closing the gap because marth is not attacking? Dont ever assume it will always be a fair vs fair battle, consider all options. Consider the fact that marths best method of walling out lucario, in order to continue damaging him, is also the most likely approach to get fsmashed.

I would actually really enjoy a discussion like this.

if I was ted, I would give this post a goldstar [but I'm not]

 

[ShippoFoxFire]

When I wake up I'll show you why it's -1 (I think it's -2 imo)

 

[phi1ny3]

Seriously, arguing like
L: We can do THIS
M: we we can do THAT
(repeat ad nauseum for every possible scenario)
.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfJnqbudMzs

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

shaya wanted to talk about it.

 

[Steam]

Can't marth just counter our Fsmash on reaction? >.>

 

[Browny]

then you charge the fsmash :3

^ perfect example of why that 'we can do this' approach to mathcup discussions is pointless lol.

 

[Steam]

then you charge the fsmash :3

^ perfect example of why that 'we can do this' approach to mathcup discussions is pointless lol.

charging Fsmash shaves 0 frames off of the Fsmash animation... you can react the the release of the charge

 

[Browny]

Way to ignore the entire point of my big post.

 

[Steam]

Way to ignore the entire point of my big post.

you just made a bad example. that would work if charging it made it impossible to react to on release, like if it was ZSS Dsmash. but if you charge Fsmash you can still easily react to the release of it.

 

[phi1ny3]

Waiting w/ AS charge is pretty cool.

 

[Browny]

Ok this is the last time I'm gonna bother with this crap.

Steam, the HOLY **** IT'S MASSIVE point you are missing by continuing with that style of debate is that NO ONE plays a purely reactionary game. For marth to react to fsmash, he must have previously committed to doing NOTHING. No one does this or they will get destroyed, you have to throw out attacks to win. If marth has 20 or so frames to react, you are making the enormous assumption that he has not previously committed to another approach attack. If this is the case, you could simply ftilt/grab him or something every time.

seriously, do you honestly think that marth players approach and only throw out an attack once the lucario has made his anti approach move? it is SO much more complicated than that.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Charging helps if they do it on reaction to you moving into the Fsmash stance at the beginning, by charging you can hit then at the end where they don't counter. Situational but I think this is what Browny is talking about with that.

I'll post more later about this.

 

[Steam]

if they react to entering Fsmash stance then they probably don't know the matchup since they are unaware they can just react to Fsmash itself.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hey man, feel free to pass this on.

The general procedures for the match up chart was that there was to be a final panel which decided between any unresolved discrepancies between panels. It was a panel of five. When it came to marth v lucario, it was decided 3-2 favour for advantage rather than even.

That procedure in itself had a deadline, as well as the match up chart being released. So yeah... we'll get to discussing the MU a bit more (my uni semester started this week) and if we can resolve it, all the better.

Guys, get your act together.

Browny, you make some excellent points. However, your attitude... yeah...

There are a lot of factors to consider in each and every MU. The more we consider the more informative and accurate our discussions become. Why we have MU threads is to help people along in the MU even if they never really encounter it. Didn't you say that even though you didn't play a Marth for two years you beat one because you had read these types of threads and knew what to do, Browny?

Also Steam, your sig pic is broken :x

 

[Browny]

--

nvm ill save it for later.

maybe i wouldnt have a bad attitude if this sort of thread didnt exist for like the 5th time which will have the same result as always because it is extremely basic theorycraft only considering a single factor at a time >_<

 

[Steam]

well this is a matchup that's really hard to theorycraft on because no one really has anything solid on the other... Other than us outcamping marth and marth ****** us offstage.

 

[D. Disciple]

Then stop theory crafting.

 

[RT]

So...going back to what I said...

Even even even.

 

[Steam]

Then stop theory crafting.

K....

well when has a lucario beaten a marth?

 

[phi1ny3]

Junebug beat NE0 iirc before he quit.

The only other big marth name out there is mikeHAZ3, not a lot to go on lol

 

[Tagxy]

Just as a heads up, to convince a marth on the panel you are going to have to theorycraft. High level pikas have generally beaten high level marths since the games release and both our best players considered the MU even and its still set at +1 marth (Not that I personally find that inaccurate.). So even if several lucarios had beaten high level marths youd need more then that.
*reenters lurk*

 

[Steam]

well it's impossible to really prove anything against marth with theorycraft. because it's a we can do this, he can do that, oh yeah well we can do this. type thing... and no one's opinion will ever change.

 

[Browny]

^ what a joke rofl. @ tag

The day marth mains stop assuming they have the advantage on everyone by default and discuss matchups on a clean slate, is the day intelligent discussion will flourish. We can only hope that day will come before brawl dies...

 

[Steam]

It really isn't possible to prove much of anything either way with theorycraft in that matchup. which kind of attests to the fact that it's probably even... jussayin.

also most marth mains I've talked to say that his matchup spread isn't good enough on the MU chart XD

 

[Browny]

When MK is in the air, he gets *****. He really cannot do anything. Basically, the whole match is, space and zone. Then once you hit MK, just hit him over and over ALWAYS ready to hit counter or Dolphin Slash if he Tornados. Randomly use shieldbreaker, as it still outranges his aerials, can be used to follow an airdodge if you charge it, and goes through tornado. Also, it's good for actually getting MK offstage because it's less stale than Fair and since it never has any of that stupid hitlag, it can't be DIed nearly as much.
~Pi3rce

Its hopeless... this is the sort of theorycraft we're up against.

THIS tagxy, is why you are very wrong in stating that we need good theorycraft to convince them. This is just pure vomit and its enough for marths to settle on as reasons for MU's going a certain way.

Truly, there is nothing we can do when all facts and realistic scenarious are thrown out the door for blind optimism. Our only hope is, as I stated on the first page, is that we deal with this topic ONLY with people who can show they welcome an open, clean slate debate. Finding them is the first mission, dont even bother with the discussion yet.

 

[Tagxy]

Haha, didnt mean to imply good theorycraft would work, only that its probably the only way you could make an attempt. And most marths dont seem that unreasonable (I dont find pi3rce to be either), just some of the more vocal mid-level ones.

As for this thread, you could maybe ask stauffy about the MU? It might be slightly outdated, but if he's played mike a few times before he quit he probably has some good knowledge on the MU of anyone. You could also ask mike himself, he has good opinions on the game as well.

 

[phi1ny3]

Haha, didnt mean to imply good theorycraft would work, only that its probably the only way you could make an attempt. And most marths dont seem that unreasonable (I dont find pi3rce to be either), just some of the more vocal mid-level ones.

As for this thread, you could maybe ask stauffy about the MU? It might be slightly outdated, but if he's played mike a few times before he quit he probably has some good knowledge on the MU of anyone. You could also ask mike himself, he has good opinions on the game as well.

I'm not sure if we're talking about the same Stauffy lulz.

 

[Steam]

I like how p1erce ignores the fact that MK has a shuttle loop. It's a pretty good move I've heard.

Also I don't know why people have said Shield breaker is ever hard to react to.... It's two frames faster than our Fsmash...

 

[Browny]

Oy. No name search allowed