Changes to the Shine

[Doval]

The frame data for Fox's shine has changed. In Melee, it'd hit and make you invincible on frame 1, do nothing on frames 2 and 3, and start reflecting and being jump-cancelable on frame 4. Now the shine is invincible on frames 1-4 and hits on 4. You can tell by going to Special Brawl, setting the speed to Slow and hitting pause at slightly different intervals after inputting Down+B with a character next to you. You'll be able to identify 3 distinct frames of animation before the character gets zapped on frame 4. You can tell it's invincible on the frame it hits by using two Foxes in Special Brawl or Training at 1/4 speed and having them do the shine at the same time. Neither will touch each other. Haven't determined when it starts reflecting just yet.

Also, it won't clank hits any more. Seems to count as a true "energy" hit (like blasters) and won't interact with other attack's hit boxes in any way.

 

[super_bacon807]

This is good stuff. The shine still seems very fast and useful, despite its nerfs..

Does 4 frame invincibility mean that Fox's shine can be used like Wolf's for invincibility from attacks, such as Final Smashes?

 

[Doval]

My bad, it's invincible up to, and hits on, frame 5. And yes, you should be able to use it like Wolf's, but it'd require better timing and the attack can't stay out for too long.

 

[Superstar]

So this basically means that if a projectile hits you when you activate the shine, but before it starts reflecting, it won't reflect but does no damage due to invincibility? Or is there a gap between reflect and invincibility. If so [but not to gap] this is good stuff.

 

[Samuman]

Yeah, I was looking for a way to count frames exactly so we can get more information on Fox as a whole.

 

[ThaDirtyG]

Wow, well done!

So what does this mean for gameplay? I don't think I quite understand the invincibility part. Does that mean that, assuming you are in shine-hit range, if you shine you cannot be hurt by ANY attacks and then you hit them? That would be pretty sick.

I'll experiment with this a little myself but I am looking forward to replies!

 

[Doval]

@Superstar: I postponed answering you a bit because I was tired of mashing start last night, and I was getting semi-conflicting results when testing for reflection - sometimes the projectile, already inside Fox, would reflect, other times it wouldn't. After a bit more testing, I've found that there is NO GAP between the invincibility and reflection frames. I.e. Fox is invincible on Frames 1-5, hits on 5 (but won't destroy the projectile because the shine is now an energy hit), and reflects on 6. The reason I was failing to reflect sometimes is because if you do the shortest shine possible, it cancels immediately after the hit and never reflects. However, doing this consciously in real time is actually hard - the timing is akin to short-hopping. As long as you don't go out of your way to release B as quickly as you can, you'll get a few reflection frames and you'll reflect as usual.

@ Samuman: I wouldn't recommend this method for counting frames. It's tedious, because you'll often miss frames and you'll have to do the move and pause many times in order to see all of them. For moves with more than 5-6 frames, it's a very slow and painful process. The best way will still be recording gameplay footage and counting the frames on the video. Sadly this isn't an option for me right now.

@ A1itH: Yes. Basically, it means that Fox's shine doesn't hit instantly like before, but it's still safe to do because you're invincible until it hits. It's an attack that essentially can't be interrupted until after its hit box comes out.

EDIT: If it helps you visualize/understand, it behaves pretty much exactly like Wolf's, except faster (and the fact that Wolf's doesn't stop your momentum.) If you go to Training Mode and set the speed to 1/4, you can see how fast-travelling projectiles go through Fox before he reflects them.

 

[Samuman]

I could record video of all of Fox's moves, but I have no idea how to count the exact frames.

 

[Doval]

Any video editing application (e.g. Windows Movie Maker) should do, I think.

 

[Samuman]

Oh, alright then. Tonight I'll get some footage and post a thread on it.

 

[super_bacon807]

Cool, I look forward to it. I visual aid would really help in my better understanding of this.

 

[LoyalSoldier]

It is still fast enough to serve the "back off" purpose. Although I do miss some of the old shine tricks.

Even though Fox was slightly toned down you have to keep in mind he was top tier in the last game so a small nerf still means he is a good character.

 

[slave1]

this is so schweet

 

[Superstar]

@Superstar: I postponed answering you a bit because I was tired of mashing start last night, and I was getting semi-conflicting results when testing for reflection - sometimes the projectile, already inside Fox, would reflect, other times it wouldn't. After a bit more testing, I've found that there is NO GAP between the invincibility and reflection frames. I.e. Fox is invincible on Frames 1-5, hits on 5 (but won't destroy the projectile because the shine is now an energy hit), and reflects on 6. The reason I was failing to reflect sometimes is because if you do the shortest shine possible, it cancels immediately after the hit and never reflects. However, doing this consciously in real time is actually hard - the timing is akin to short-hopping. As long as you don't go out of your way to release B as quickly as you can, you'll get a few reflection frames and you'll reflect as usual.

Ahh, thanks. My chief place to play is online, and due to lag I tend to do the short shine when I try to reflect, and I tend to be confused why it didn't reflect. Maybe the invincibility will give me more confidence to hold the button, might help in all the camping wars.

I still have to find a tournament... I need to get my license.