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CEO 2015 Will Not Have Customs Legal & 2 Stock 5 Minutes

LiteralGrill

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While many tournaments and streams have been picking up customs with Evo 2015 having customs on officially for Smash Wii U so the announcement earlier today by Jebailey, creator of CEO Gaming, that customs would be off for CEO 2015 was something very different from the usual as of late. Jebailey promised he would create a formal post on the topic and he has done just that on Facebook.


While there is no proper substitute for reading the full post, Jeybailey's personal TLDR was: "No Customs at CEO because too many hours need to be invested in single player modes to unlock moves for competitive tournament play that a vast majority of players may not be able to invest in doing." Here is the post for those interested:

Jebailey said:
To those attending CEO for Super Smash Bros. for WiiU please read my reasoning for not allowing Custom Movesets this year.

Hey everyone, as always I try to be as transparent as possible with CEO so you can feel just as much a part of the process as possible to make it an even better experience for you in the end.

With that said, Super Smash Bros. for WiiU came out a few months ago and has thus proven to be an enjoyable game for everyone. With the tournament scene doing great so far(Tampa recently had a 170 man Smash 4 Tournament alongside SF, XRD and Marvel) especially here in Florida.

So far there has been a big debate in allowing Custom moves in tournament play. For those that don't play Smash, The newest version allows you to unlock additional moves for each character that you can set up before a match altering the way they play. For the most part there haven't been too many broken maneuvers but the problem with customs is by default they are not unlocked and the process of unlocking everything is very tedious. The average player must spend hours upon hours unlocking moves in single player modes. It has been said it's much easier to unlock every custom move on a 3DS but most players have moved onto the WiiU Version for tournament practice.

This debate would not even be happening if all custom moves were unlocked and selectable by default the moment you turn on the game, but not every player can invest time and prepare themselves for a large scale event to learn a long list of additional moves that may or may not be included with the intention of balance. Yes a player should be prepared for anything but historically in other Fighting Games such as Soul Calibur, Created Characters or custom moves have been banned. To reiterate, if all custom moves were unlocked by a single code or by default I would allow them.

I feel the meta so far is pretty healthy and players are still discovering strategies to deal with characters such as Diddy Kong or Sonic that won recently here in Florida. Why should my opinion matter? Well for one I think I'm still the only active FGC TO that enters Smash tournaments whenever I can and I have a decent pulse on the community. Even I have been entering Local Smash 4 tournaments and still learning basic matchups. For this early in the game's cycle to open up the possibility of 500+ plus moves to be learned in an already huge lineup of characters, I can just imagine it an entire weekend of post match complaints if customs become popularly used or certain moves just complete change results. "I had no idea what that move was, I never got a chance to unlock it myself and prepare for it". I think at the end of the day, customs won't change the players that end up in top 8 as the same dedicated players will always find a way to excel, and while this defeats the purpose of making the event fun for everyone else, as a TO you have to make it fair as possible across the board.

Logistically it can also be a nightmare to implement correctly in large events but the community has taken initiative and proven ways that TOs can get an "unlock all moves" with a Master 3DS setup(God Bless the poor soul that had to spend days unlocking everything) that can take about 15 minutes to upload to each WIIU that the community chosen preset moves that everyone would need to agree upon. While I hope this works out in the long run, I think it's too soon to check everything for balance until custom tournaments happen more frequently on a smaller scale and I'd rather not be that first major event to experiment with it. I have been hearing of some events having a hard time getting everything unlocked and not using customs in the end as well as have chatted with prominent Smash TOs that may not agree with customs either. There's also ways to allow players to link up their own 3DS to a console and input their presets but any major tournament frowns upon the use of installation methods by individual players. After the experience with PM last year and mid round coaching, this can also open up a new world of counter picking rules and delays that would need to be enforced to keep from excessive blind picking of move sets and characters.

At Tampa Never Sleeps 5 this past weekend, I asked whomever I played or that was around how they felt about Customs and most were indifferent or were happy with how the game was without them. End of the day I always go with what my local community seems to enjoy, not what the internet or players that most likely can't make it out to my event want to see on a stream. Believe it or not there's still a huge market of players out there that have no idea about reddit, facebook groups and the like. Last thing I want is to scare away casual players that may Attend CEO for the first time, find out about the scene but have no idea what they just went up against in the form of custom moves.

I highly commend and respect EVO for making customs legal at CEO and really hope it works out. However they did try Brawl with items on back in 2009 and now items are non existent in every form of Smash Competitive play. If we allow something like Customs to open up a variety or new excitement to the game because people "think" it's already failing compared to Melee, why not just allow items as well to set it apart? If A solid standardized set of customs rules is established without being a 20 page bible of rules for the common player to learn, I will definitely change my mind for future CEO's and local events I host. I'll continue to listen to everyone's feedback and if the outcry by REGISTERED players(Which goes live this weekend on ceogaming.org) is big enough leading up to CEO I will revisit the issue.

As for other Rules, As of now I'll be going with the gernal EVO Ruleset such as 2 Stock 5 minute timer since that's the standard setting for Smash 4 Online Ranked play which I rather enjoy still playing online.

If this affects your interest in attending CEO then my apologies, I take full responsibility for my decisions and if a mistake is made after the fact I'll have no problems apologizing and adjusting properly for future events and encouraging other local events to do the same. For those that still plan to attend are happy with my decision, keep on practicing those matchups so you don't get Hoo-Hah'd!

Oh and and don't forget No coaching delays between games at CEO or you'll be sorry!

Thanks for listening.
Jebailey
A few of the most major highlights:
  • "I'll continue to listen to everyone's feedback and if the outcry by REGISTERED players is big enough leading up to CEO I will revisit the issue." So he is still open to changing the rule with feedback from registered players.
  • "To reiterate, if all custom moves were unlocked by a single code or by default I would allow them."
  • While not custom related he announced a 2 stock 5 minute timer for the tournament which is similar to Evo
With registration for CEO 2015 beginning on March 1st at on CEO's website, it will be interesting to see if the players who register make a loud enough outcry for customs to see them used at the event.

CEO2015bannerlarge (2).jpg
CEO2015Bannersmall.jpg


SmashCapps is always interested in ruleset discussion of all kinds. Follow him on Twitter to discuss customs, stock counts, timers, or anything else!
 
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Shirma Akayaku

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Customs aside, I don't get why the match would be 5 minutes. I thought 6 minutes was just fine but I guess they want matches to be faster.
 

The Stoopid Unikorn

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Are you happy, Melee fanboys? :troll:

Seriously though, I can understand the frustration. If only Slapurai-san would make it easier (DLC and/or updates), it'd be much less frustrating.
 

Vinylic.

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It was expected and understandable. It takes a lot of effort to unlock every single custom move, especially considering that you get the same custom you've already gotten. Ugh.

Buuuut, I've tweeted with Jebailey on this beforehand, which he responds...
https://twitter.com/CEOJebailey/status/569565827369840640

It may still be possible as a side event, but could also end up being a no go.
Plus, Amiibo Fights? Worth a shot.
 
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Davis-Lightheart

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I understand his worry, and give him credit for sticking to his guns.

I'm surprised customs have gained as much traction as is really, but am glad they have.
 

Juggleguy

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I can definitely respect a TO who comes to a decision logically and thoroughly, instead of through the anecdotal whims of casual spectators. Good for Jebailey.
 

Katakiri

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Good on Jebailey! Even appart from his points, I feel like we need much, MUCH longer to figure out even the base game's balance before we actually commit to custom moves (let alone figuring out if a customs metagame is even desirable!) APEX showed off a lot of characters in ways most of us haven't seen before, proof the game is still evolving even at a character vs character level. "X" could end up being a top character, "Y" could be over-hyped now and end up vastly underwhelming in the end. There's no telling this early in the game's life.
 

moofpi

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"As for other Rules, As of now I'll be going with the gernal EVO Ruleset such as 2 Stock 5 minute timer since that's the standard setting for Smash 4 Online Ranked play which I rather enjoy still playing online."

Get ready for that Omega Only Stage List!
 

Neoleo21

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Fine no customs for CEO, we're pushing EVO anyway, but that timer and stock count is plain bad under these conditions. I just want to be able to play the character at the full potential of their moveset and custom moves increase that boundary.
 

Davis-Lightheart

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It was expected and understandable. It takes a lot of effort to unlock every single custom move, especially considering that you get the same custom you've already gotten. Ugh.

Buuuut, I've tweeted with Jebailey on this beforehand, which he responds...
https://twitter.com/CEOJebailey/status/569565827369840640

It may still be possible as a side event, but could also end up being a no go.
Plus, Amiibo Fights? Worth a shot.
I'd rather not have it as a side event. A side event is basically admitting that customs should not be part of the main event for Smash 4 in general. Better to not have them at CEO than have them off to the side like that.
 

Man Li Gi

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>Takes customs away which could possibly make the game more interesting (or not)
>Makes 2 stock 5 min the rule
>Expects matches to fly faster simply be cuz less stocks.
>Less stocks means less flashy, but more conservative playstyle.
>Viewers will dwindle and will cause the game to die prematurely if conservative playstyle is the way to go.
>Stifled playstyle will result in people drop and pick up a high tier simply be cuz matches move faster and can easily punish ANY mistake which is great in a conservative playstyle.
>............hype?
 

Delzethin

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Even though I disagree, good on him for explaining his stance. It's a step further than the total nothing we got regarding why Apex's ruleset was the way it was.

That said, I think I see some flaws in the logic. Sticking to 2 Stock/5 Minutes because it's that way in For Glory makes little sense since we don't know why FG uses that setup. For all we know, it could've been intentionally short so players can do more matches, aware that a loss caused by one freak mistake that the player didn't have a chance to come back from won't mean much in the long run since it isn't a tournament setting.

And this quote:
"If we allow something like Customs to open up a variety or new excitement to the game because people "think" it's already failing compared to Melee..."
That isn't at all why more people are in favor of customs.
 
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Ur2Slow

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Imagine if they banned every stage except omegas. Would people start saying "No customs, 2 stock, omega stages only"?
 

Z25

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*facepalms! If your playing all these hours competitively than you should have time to get customs. At least we srill have EVO to look foward to.
 

Dravidian

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I respect his decision, but I disagree wholeheartedly. I mean he uses SC as an example for not having customs, but ignores games like MKX(variations) and Skullgirls(custom assist). PLus, we have an entire thread focused on making customs for events like this require ONE 3ds with everything unlocked and the most popular builds; any other build and you should bring your own 3ds. And to those saying we need time to figure out if the custom-based meta is desirable......that's like not eating an apple pie and saying you need time to figure out if you like it or not. Some times you just need to freaking try something different and then make a decision. But I digress. At least one tournament is doing it and I'm sure CEO smash will still be entertaining, though potentially less so than if it allowed customs.

Hopefully registered users will want customs...
 
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RanserSSF4

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as much as I'm slightly disappointed, I do agree with his point about unlocking customs. It's really tedious lol.
 

Mythra

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Here lies the hopes and dreams of Palutena being viable in this tournament
 

Claire Diviner

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If we allow something like Customs to open up a variety or new excitement to the game because people "think" it's already failing compared to Melee, why not just allow items as well to set it apart?
An odd question by Jebailey. Custom moves, though unlockable and tedious as they may be, and despite movesets having variety per character, we could realistically know what to expect if custom-enabled tourneys became more and more widespread, allowing players to actually learn about them. Items, on the other hand, are completely spawned randomly on random parts of the stage, and is something that cannot be controlled, tipping the scales in a rather unfair manner. While some may argue for Peach's Vegetable or Game & Watch's Judgment, at least those can be anticipated, unlike the smorgasbord of items that are available, including the really unfair Pokéballs, Home-Run Bat, Smash Ball, etc. Even if specific items were banned, items on the whole would still be over-centralized.

Just something I found puzzling for him to mention is all.
 
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Brickbox

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I'm fine with these rules but I feel like palutena needs some sort of exemption.

Make the most popular palutena custom set legal or something.
 

Claire Diviner

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I'm fine with these rules but I feel like palutena needs some sort of exemption.

Make the most popular palutena custom set legal or something.
Intriguing point. Palutena and Miis have all of their custom moves available from the word "go", so why not make an exception for them?
 

Chzrm3

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It'd be less of an issue if the system for unlocking custom moves in the Wii U version wasn't completely horrible. But it seriously is - I've spent so much time trying to get these stupid things and it takes forever.

It's so much easier in the 3DS version, cause smash run gives you a ton of them and it's also really fun and quick. 5 minutes for a bit of dungeon crawling and some customs practically guaranteed? That's totally cool.

But jeez, in Smash Wii U it just takes forever. The only way to get a lot of them is that awful mario party clone that Sakurai wasted his time on, and I'd rather just not have them than play that crap. :p
 

Claire Diviner

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But jeez, in Smash Wii U it just takes forever. The only way to get a lot of them is that awful mario party clone that Sakurai wasted his time on, and I'd rather just not have them than play that crap. :p
I honestly have zero problems getting custom moves from Crazy Orders. Sure, I cheese my way with a custom Mario fitted with First Striker, Home-Run Bat, and Quick Batter equipment, as well as his Fast Fireball to ensure I "PING" things to death, but you gotta do what works.
 

Radical Larry

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While I kind of respect his decision, getting custom specials in the Wii U version of the game (at least for me) is nowhere near as hard as people think. I can get 7 custom specials, all different ones, in one set of Crazy Orders, and 4 in a set of Trophy Rush, all being different moves altogether, so it's not really that hard.

Plus, can't we like...I don't know...hack into the damn game like normal people do and just get the customs unlocked that way? If people are able to find out every single bit of information from getting into the game, why not get Customs unlocked that way?

Is it really that hard to do, honestly? Hack a game to unlock everything? (And go through the half hour long process of pressing A?) Or has no one figured it out yet?
 

Claire Diviner

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While I kind of respect his decision, getting custom specials in the Wii U version of the game (at least for me) is nowhere near as hard as people think. I can get 7 custom specials, all different ones, in one set of Crazy Orders, and 4 in a set of Trophy Rush, all being different moves altogether, so it's not really that hard.
It's not that easy in Trophy Rush, unless RNGesus is on your side. Crazy Orders, however, I can attest to its reliability.
Plus, can't we like...I don't know...hack into the damn game like normal people do and just get the customs unlocked that way? If people are able to find out every single bit of information from getting into the game, why not get Customs unlocked that way?

Is it really that hard to do, honestly? Hack a game to unlock everything? (And go through the half hour long process of pressing A?) Or has no one figured it out yet?
I'm guessing no one has figured that out. Regardless, talking about hacking or modding a game, if memory serves me well, is against forum rules, so I'd nip that subject in the bud if I were you.
Nothing? im just more interested in a tourny with customs.
Fair enough.

Personally, I would like to see more customs as well, if for nothing else, to have an effect on the metagame that's akin to throwing a penny in the primordial ooze.
 
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fromundaman

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*facepalms! If your playing all these hours competitively than you should have time to get customs. At least we srill have EVO to look foward to.
That is very faulty logic. Only if customs were unlockable from hours spent in training, vs or online would your post hold water, but the way it is now any time you dedicate to unlocking customs is time you are not spending improving as a player.
 

Road Death Wheel

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That is very faulty logic. Only if customs were unlockable from hours spent in training, vs or online would your post hold water, but the way it is now any time you dedicate to unlocking customs is time you are not spending improving as a player.
and somehow playing online is gunna do this?
 

TheBardlyBard

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I dunno why. Smash @ Xanadu does weeklies with this coming tourney's very format, so it'd be business as usual, unless you found those to be boring as well?
Xanadu will be having customs in a couple weeks, they confirmed it on the MD/VA Facebook group, they are spending a few weeks unlocking them and then will start
 
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