"Casual Style" Tournament Rules Proposal

[Randofu]

(As a note: I originally posted this on the Brawl forum, but it got closed there. I still think it applies just as much to Brawl as to Melee, but I'll see if this flies here)

I've been a casual Smasher for years. I recently finally went to my first tournament since it was so easy to get to. I was actually pretty surprised. I thought that the people there would just be leagues ahead of me, but it wasn't really the case. I know the game well, and I know the advanced techniques, but I couldn't hang with the tournament players. Why is that? Well, I don't play by their rules. I've played for years with items on.

You can call me a noob for not being able to waveshine consistently, but I think I can call you a noob for hitting an exploding box when you're playing with items on. Let's face it; it's a totally different game with items on. The tiers are different and there's a bit more randomness. It's still a game though, so why can't there be a tournament?

As far as I'm concerned, this is what a "casual" tournament would be like. Turn all items on, and have items on Very High. Players choose their characters randomly(!). All stages are available and chosen randomly. Since there's considerably more luck involved in this version, you play best of 10. Since you play more games, I think Stock 3 with a time limit of 5 minutes would be better, to speed up the tournament.

I won't deny that it takes a good player to be great with one character on a few stages. It takes a truly awesome player to be great with every character on every stage. Sometimes it'll be Bowser vs. Fox, and you'll just have to suck it up and do your best.

I know this will never catch on, but I'd love to see it. I feel like I could easily compete in tournaments (though probably not win them) if I bought a wired controller and focused on two or three characters only. I feel like that takes a lot of the fun out of the game though. Unfortunately, because I enjoy being more versatile, I feel like there's no place for me in the competitive scene, and I think that's a shame.

PS: It's really hard to practice some of the "advanced techniques" when there are a lot of items around, because the game plays differently when the items are around!

 

[Binx]

sounds really dumb and boring with luck being the main factor in victory for either player, especially of even skill. You, sir, fail. TY =D

I can play most characters pretty well I can do a great deal of the character specific techniques, I can play on any level already, but a lot of levels are not good for tournament play, also ALL items on VERY HIGH is pretty rediculous, maybe low items with a select few but even still the drops are random so its kind of bad for competetive play.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I like the part where characters are chosen at random.

I'll leave this open to see if there actually is any interest in this idea, though keep in mind interest and finding a person who actually wants their tournaments to use such rules, are two different things.

 

[TheManaLord]

Absolutely stupid.

 

[Randofu]

I like the part where characters are chosen at random.

Frankly I'm just glad there was some positive feedback.

In the tournament I went to recently there was a team tournament and a singles tournament. I don't see why there couldn't be a third type added. Of course, I'm up against an "institution" that I think feels a little threatened by the idea, since it may put their skill at the game into question. It seems more likely that if such a thing were to take off, it would be a totally different set of people who played it.

Plus those people are probably too busy just playing with their friends for fun to actually organize or participate in a tournament. I think that the only real chance this idea has is if it gets adopted early in Brawl's lifetime, before tournament rules essentially get set in stone (if they haven't been already).

 

[ihavespaceblondes]

There was a small local tournament some of my crewmates went to that did something like this. They had extra time after the regular singles and doubles, so they did a $1 entry fee random character/level/items tourney. Oddly enough, the top two in regular singles, top team in doubles, and top two in random singles were the same two people.

My point is that the best players will still come out on top unless something ridiculously unlucky happens. However, not enough people are willing to travel very far for that type of tournament because it gets old much faster than regular tournament play.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

The best players would still win. In fact, some competitive tourney players actually play with items or on random stages, or sometimes they both pick random characters for fun. Just something to break the monotony. I'd actually be glad to enter such a tournament, as I practice every character in the game and play with items more than most people I know. I also love a few banned stages *couchGreatBaycough*

What's with this wave of noobs newbs and "casuals" making these threads all of a sudden lol. No offense, but it gets really old seeing this stuff pop up every day...we need a huge thread dedicated to casual smash discussion and ideas (NOT that casual vs tournament crap either lol.)

 

[Randofu]

My point is that the best players will still come out on top unless something ridiculously unlucky happens. However, not enough people are willing to travel very far for that type of tournament because it gets old much faster than regular tournament play.

It could very well be that the best normal tournament players still come out on top, but I doubt that would be the case if this were actually done seriously. I would think you would really have to train to do one or the other... The way you described it at least, it sounds like no one was prepared for the random character match-ups.

Also, I don't really see how battles with more randomness will get old faster. Without items, the playing field is more or less even the entire match. With items, things sway in one person or the other's favor as the match goes on (assuming they're of equal skill) as randomness benefits one player over the other.

Look at it this way. The best player in the world is not going to lose to a complete Smash newb whether there are items or not. Items add some randomness, and that randomness can sometimes make up for a small difference in skill, but it's not reliable. In the end, the game is more fresh since a player who has superior skill is not always guaranteed to win every match, but should probably come out on the top in the end.

 

[Egret]

I would imagine even "hardcore casual" players would prefer an item setting less than very high. Medium is plenty of items.

 

[Luigi Ka-master]

You can call me a noob for not being able to waveshine consistently, but I think I can call you a noob for hitting an exploding box when you're playing with items on. Let's face it; it's a totally different game with items on. The tiers are different and there's a bit more randomness. It's still a game though, so why can't there be a tournament?

Lol, no, there's a lot more randomness. The idea isn't ever going to gain much popularity because people don't like betting money on such random settings.

As far as I'm concerned, this is what a "casual" tournament would be like. Turn all items on, and have items on Very High. Players choose their characters randomly(!). All stages are available and chosen randomly. Since there's considerably more luck involved in this version, you play best of 10. Since you play more games, I think Stock 3 with a time limit of 5 minutes would be better, to speed up the tournament.

Just because you play best of 10 it doesn't make the massive luck increase of the matches go away.

I know this will never catch on, but I'd love to see it. I feel like I could easily compete in tournaments (though probably not win them) if I bought a wired controller and focused on two or three characters only. I feel like that takes a lot of the fun out of the game though. Unfortunately, because I enjoy being more versatile, I feel like there's no place for me in the competitive scene, and I think that's a shame.

Well that's entirely your own, very unique opinion.

No one wants to play extremely bad, UNversatile characters in tournaments. And if you do, there's nothing stopping you in regular tournament settings from doing so.

Plus those people are probably too busy just playing with their friends for fun to actually organize or participate in a tournament. I think that the only real chance this idea has is if it gets adopted early in Brawl's lifetime, before tournament rules essentially get set in stone (if they haven't been already).

If they're too busy playing the game "for fun", then it doesn't really sound like there's any real need for someone else to actually organize a tournament with those kind of settings. They obviously don't care about competitive play very much, which is the entire point of tournaments, or they would be playing in real tournaments.

The idea of a casual tournament is just rediculous, because "casual" and "tournament" are basically the most opposite two words can be from eachother.

 

[Powderfinger]

I think casual tournaments should be:

Giant mode

items (very high): super mushrooms

Stage: Hyrule

Character: marth

 

[Binx]

Very well said Ka.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

It could very well be that the best normal tournament players still come out on top, but I doubt that would be the case if this were actually done seriously.

Um, it WAS done seriously lol. It took place in a tournament environment, post-tourney, run by the same people, and played by tournament players.

I would think you would really have to train to do one or the other... The way you described it at least, it sounds like no one was prepared for the random character match-ups.

How do you prepare for randomness? o_O It's random...

Also, I don't really see how battles with more randomness will get old faster. Without items, the playing field is more or less even the entire match. With items, things sway in one person or the other's favor as the match goes on (assuming they're of equal skill) as randomness benefits one player over the other.

Battles with more randomness would definitely get old faster. Without items, the playing field is more or less even the entire match. With items, things sway in one person or the other's favor as the match goes on (assuming they're of equal skill) as randomness benefits one player over the other.

Look at it this way. The best player in the world is not going to lose to a complete Smash newb whether there are items or not. Items add some randomness, and that randomness can sometimes make up for a small difference in skill, but it's not reliable.

If anything, the newb would get wrecked even HARDER with items on.

In the end, the game is more fresh since a player who has superior skill is not always guaranteed to win every match, but should probably come out on the top in the end.

It's ALWAYS been that way. The best players obviously don't win every match, but they tend to place top 5 in every tournament they go to.

 

[Randofu]

Lol, no, there's a lot more randomness. The idea isn't ever going to gain much popularity because people don't like betting money on such random settings.

It doesn't have to be for money. Also, I'm pretty sure that any casino would disagree that people don't like betting money on random things.

Just because you play best of 10 it doesn't make the massive luck increase of the matches go away.

No, but it mitigates it.

Well that's entirely your own, very unique opinion.

No one wants to play extremely bad, UNversatile characters in tournaments. And if you do, there's nothing stopping you in regular tournament settings from doing so.

True. Though I still wish I could play Bowser.

If they're too busy playing the game "for fun", then it doesn't really sound like there's any real need for someone else to actually organize a tournament with those kind of settings. They obviously don't care about competitive play very much, which is the entire point of tournaments, or they would be playing in real tournaments.

That was kind of the point of this thread, to see if there might actually be an interest in it. As far as I'm concerned, playing with these rules is a totally different game from standard tournament rules. I don't really play the game that's played in real tournaments.

The idea of a casual tournament is just rediculous, because "casual" and "tournament" are basically the most opposite two words can be from eachother.

I tried to put casual in quotes since I didn't really choose that word. I've just noticed that it's a word that a lot of people on these boards use to describe non-traditional-tournament styles of play.

Thanks for your opinion though! I'm sure a lot of people agree with you, but I'm more interested in seeing how many people agree with me. In the end it all comes down to a matter of opinion and preference anyway.

 

[Randofu]

Um, it WAS done seriously lol. It took place in a tournament environment, post-tourney, run by the same people, and played by tournament players.

Yeah, but those players didn't practice specifically for that style of tournament. That's how it differs from traditional tournament play. If this mode became a staple at tournaments, people might practice for it.

How do you prepare for randomness? o_O It's random...

You learn strategies for dealing with items so that even if your opponent gets a good one, you can disarm him or steal it. You learn not to attack boxes and crates whenever possible. You practice specific strategies for every character so that no matter who gets chosen randomly, you can deal with it and still have a chance at winning.

Personally I think that people who think that items are too random haven't had enough experience playing with them to work the items to their advantage. I'm not saying that they don't add randomness, just that I think it isn't nearly as much as people make it out to be.

Battles with more randomness would definitely get old faster. Without items, the playing field is more or less even the entire match. With items, things sway in one person or the other's favor as the match goes on (assuming they're of equal skill) as randomness benefits one player over the other.

So monotony is less monotonous than variety?

If anything, the newb would get wrecked even HARDER with items on.

I guess using items is a skill then.

It's ALWAYS been that way. The best players obviously don't win every match, but they tend to place top 5 in every tournament they go to.

So then there is some randomness in the game after all. Hmm...

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Actually, the players who are saying items have too much randomness are some of the most experienced players in the Smash community. They're played with items enough times to understand that they're not quite fit for tournament play.

 

[shadydentist]

I mean, it sounds kind of like fun, but I don't really see how this is indicative of skill to any degree. Thus, the whole tournament aspect is kind of lost.

 

[Doctor X]

Whether you're willing to believe it or not, the skill sets you think you've learned from playing with such settings do not in any way compare to the things that the top tournament players have done. This "I'm just as good, I just don't play by the same rules" stuff is an overblown john based on a biased sample of players, because honestly... sometimes you go to a tournament and there really aren't any good players there.

I don't mean to sound like a jerk, so I'll offer you some advice-- if you're so interested in playing in a tournament, try finding a bigger one nearby and try your luck there. Go to or host smashfests if you have to, but do your best to find the best players you can and play with them as often as possible. Maybe you'll come to understand higher-level smash and find a lot of success there, or maybe you'll come to understand that it just isn't for you. Either way, you'll have a better understanding of what the tournament community stands for, and you'll realize that what you're asking for now, in this topic, is quite a far cry from that.

 

[Adi]

Christ, I read the first post and thought it was a joke. I can't believe you are seriously proposing a tournament with items on very high and random characters.

 

[falcasouris]

id just like to point somthing out though. im a casual player myself, and your idea had merit. but i think the pro players like bankering on their skill to win. My friend 2 stocks me each time, yet when we play w/ items it's really a 50-50. And while its still fun, people just wont wanna lose their money to someone less skilled them them cause they stuck with a crappy charicter agianst one that top tier. making it outta 10 wont nullify all the stupid match-ups people will be getting.

 

[Winston]

Hey, hear me out here, even though my post count isn't that high and my post isn't very long.


The bottom line for these suggestions is not that the institution is threatened by these suggestions, but that people simply don't prefer this style of play. People who go to tournaments as they're run now have a great time, as you can see if you read any shoutouts thread; it's not like the oppressive tier list and no items makes everyone all business and no smiles.

Why not try organizing one yourself and see how many people want to come? If they do, then you'll have your own, new tournament style.

 

[0RLY]

I think casual tournaments should be:

Giant mode

items (very high): super mushrooms

Stage: Hyrule

Character: marth

You, sir, just made my day.

 

[GoldenGlove]

New casual-style smash tournament rules! Flip a coin, the player that calls it correctly wins!

I kid, I kid.

Actually, it's an interesting idea, but I don't see how these can be called "tournament" rules, as casual players probably don't want to go to tournaments anyway. Also, the current ruleset comes from years of experimentation and trial-and-error (that includes having items on!), you can't really just make one up on the spot. Don't worry though, I'm sure you can make some contributions to a viable ruleset for Brawl! (it is a different game after all, so I don't think we should go into it automatically wanting the same ruleset we have for melee)

 

[Valdens]

I would honestly find this a lot of fun, and I don't see why people have to be such ***** about the thread. It's an idea, people, it's not like he's trying to dethrone tournament rules in place of his own..

 

[NF Alex]

I really wouldn't call that a tournament, more like some kind of random ******** party.

 

[Blu-ninja]

well actually,
if this was applied diffrently...

like say,

a novice type tourney, thad be cool.

that way theres diffrent rules for diffrent types of smashers.

casual?play it for fun?
go to rookie tourneys with items on and have a blast!

hardcore?want some competition?
bet money with no items and pure skill.

pro?love this game too much?
travel abroad to other states and win twice the mulah and fight some serious battles.

if it were played THIS way in a more structurized format, allowing newbies to transition into the smash scene easily, then i would definently support this.

 

[Deleted member]

Dont flame people. I think since it probably wouldnt be popular, invite over a bunch of friends and do this, but with items on medium. Many good people play with items for fun. But generally in tourneys, u have the opportunity to get MONEY, so this would kinda interfere with that.

 

[MVPaintballer]

casual style tournament = oxymoron
casual style tournament w/ rules = more oxymoronic

 

[the_suicide_fox]

Might work well for little kids who never played Smash before (i.e. if you run a charity event for your church). I'd never use it in a tournament though.

****, and I thought my tourny rules were pretty "casual" O.-

 

[Onvoloper]

Absolutely stupid.

It's diffrent, and whats wrong with a new way to play the game? Ecspecially when the old way stays...it just gives more variety.

 

[Banks]

Although many people probably think this is a little far fetched, if you could find enough people to pay to enter such a thing there's no reason why you couldn't run it. Personally I would never pay to gamble on something that relies mostly on luck.

 

[Bailey]

You could run it but it is stupid. WTF is a best of 10? what if it is 5-5?

 

[DippnDots]

I don't get how the OP is intelligent enough to "debate" people here without throwing a hissy fit yet still had the idea to post this and argue it.

 

[Junpappy]

Sounds like a "Let's all just give Azen prize money" tournament format to me.

 

[theONEjanitor]

it could be fun
but its not something that will ever catch on and become a standard for smash events.
i'm sure everyone here ****s around and plays with items every now and then, and yes its fun.

the thing is, its not FAIR.

The difference between your casino example and this is that in a casino, the playing field is level for everyone involved.

on a slot machine, you're not playing AGAINST a person, so it doesn't matter. Games like Poker or Blackjack DO involve skill, and the people with skill almost ALWAYS beat the people without skill.

playing smash with random characters and very high items is so random and luck based that the person who isn't the best has an advantage to win that they didn't earn.


I always wonder why people claim that competitive players "take the fun out of the game".

i'm here to say that I have NEVER had as much fun with smash until i became competitive. EVER.

i like the idea of a random character tournament, but you have to understand that its not FAIR, nor will its results show who is the best player.

Now if you really wanted to see who could play the msot characters on the most stages, have EVERY player play with the SAME characters on the SAME stages. That would be so hard to set up though.

 

[greenblob]

I, like most people here, would not run it, probably won't participate, and don't see it happening any time soon (from the competitive crowd), and just don't care either way. If you want this type of tournament, run it and advertise it. You can use the tournaments section if you want.

 

[Cereal Rabbit]

So then there is some randomness in the game after all. Hmm...

Luck and probability are DIFFERENT things. Though they sound like they're the same, they ARE be used differently. Someone like you should learn how to pick up a dictionary once in a while when you're too confused assuming statements. Your comprehension is like a flushing toilet.

Let's say you beat someone who you definitly say you're better than, and you are. So you've beaten them because of luck you say? After sitting down on the seat and playing Smash for a dozen rounds, you've never lost to him yet. Is it that you're just lucky? Or is it that your probability of winning is higher than your opponent?

 

[xyouxarexuglyx2]

I know I shouldn't be stereotyping, but I find it funny how MOST of the people that defend people like the OP (seen it before, nothing different :/) have less than 100 posts.

In other words, the converse does not apply, and there are FEW people with high post counts defending them.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Videos I found on Youtube from a "UC Berkeley Bomb Tourney"

These are actual competitive players who I guess decided to have a tourney with bombs and motion sensor bombs on high, with banned stages legal.

See for yourself >.>
I haven't seen them either but maybe they'll prove their point...

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8PMOQy5PLHg
http://youtube.com/watch?v=hIihuaVUNBs
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TPX-Kf7n4EQ

http://youtube.com/watch?v=07pBB1H6I_c
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dCn1s82uYL0
http://youtube.com/watch?v=TaQidGoq1mU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MG2jKUilVJA

http://youtube.com/watch?v=rR6CVZa6VKc
http://youtube.com/watch?v=RHvAc-9GbtU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pYU2XImdzPo

 

[siresword]

i watched two of those vids. there was a pika vs a falco and a mario (same guy as the pika) vs a marth
the guy's mario was better than his pika, and it looked like they were just getting into playing smash competitively. his pika rolled a lot and his mario wd's sparingly.

either way the matches looked like they were more focused on items than technique so i don't know if this proves a point or negates one :o