Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

There's a certain way you have to grab puff and also condition her to stay crouched that I haven't fully worked out. And yes my reward on it is usually smaller than it could be so that's part of it as well. Dtilt works fine if I just space it right since I encourage her to jump and give damage and get stage.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Thoughts on some of the Genesis matches?

Since this a Marth thread, Smashgod vs Swedish Delight stands out as being worthy to talk about.
Smashgod played at high distance when he had to retreat (0:07, 3:53, 6:21), avoiding Sheik's threat zones and making staying far enough away to make it difficult for Sheik to utilize platforms. He got a lot of his openings from catching Sheik leaving a platform (for example 3:59). I feel like he got more neutral game wins out of being cornered (for example 0:32) than he should have, Swedish Delight was a bit off with his corner pressure in this set it seems.

About recent Marth vs Sheik gameplay, Marth players have become better at avoiding "Marthritis", which from what I've seen is a lot about sending Sheik offstage early and managing to continue the punish game after the Sheik recovers, because combos get difficult at higher %s and there is counterplay to sharking them over and over, especially on top platform stages. The other problem I often see is Marths getting dragged into skirmish situations, where Sheik excels. This happens mostly when the neutral game is reset at relatively low range, after getting hit by Sheik or when dropping punishes. What seems to work from time to time is giving up a lot of space to stay safe while registering what Sheik does and using the possibilities that gives to you (for example, Sheik retreats to a platform, so you can retake at least a bit of space). The scope of application is limited because you don't always have that much space. Some Marths like challenging Sheik with forward drift fair, grab or use defensive options, but from my experience in the majority of cases Sheik wins the neutral game in these situations and it is possible that Marth doesn't have good answers here but has to avoid these situations in the first place.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Looked to me like SmashGod(SG) backed up a lot to avoid Sheik's platform game and also to get time to observe her approaches. When he rushed in from across the level game 1 that's where he got messed up. Switching to smaller levels helped him out a lot as the match results show.

 

[AustinRC]

Yo Dr. PP,

I was watching your marth vs hungrybox and I realized that you never go for dash/boost grabs to catch puff crouching.

Do you think it's not worth the risk when you could just dtilt puff? Would you consider grabbing more if you had consistent pivot tippers?

thanks!

There's a certain way you have to grab puff and also condition her to stay crouched that I haven't fully worked out. And yes my reward on it is usually smaller than it could be so that's part of it as well. Dtilt works fine if I just space it right since I encourage her to jump and give damage and get stage.

Even dash grabbing a crouching puff can be dangerous. Her jump squat makes her go even lower so she can wavedash in place when Marth comes forward to grab her and rest him. I've actually found a new safe way to land grabs vs puff and I did a video on it. Link below for the Marth vs Puff tutorial.

Here!!

 

[capusa27]

A AustinRC

Hi. I am almost 100% positive that Dr Peepee knows about pivot grabbing Puff's B-Air. I am pretty sure that he described it as "[stupid and broken]" or something along those lines. I think I also remember Kevin saying that Puff can only avoid Marth's pivot grab if Puff perfectly spaces her back air I hope to see more Marths do this. Great rediscovery !

I don't really remember Dr Peepee
Sorry if I misconstrued any information!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh....well I got the info about that from Arc actually lol. Anyway there's a way to grab crouching puff but yeah you have to watch for her jumpsquat so it takes some manipulation. If you can do these grabs it's safer.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

An idea, not sure how useful it is:
In Marth v Fox, when Fox is recovering with up-B (starting around half of up-B distance away and maybe 10 or 20% of up-B distance down from there), Marth can cover most angles by ledgegrab->ledgedrop->aerial jump->dair, but choosing a very high angle and drifting towards the stage afterwards (also refered to as "mangle") can avoid that hitbox and get to ledge safely.
However, if you ledgecancel the dair and regrab the edge, you cover this. It is obviously very situational, but there exists an entire class of these sorts of ledgecancel regrab edgeguards, so it could add up. I believe it would find most use with bair in Fox v Fox.

I wish I knew how to do these cool gifs, an animation conveys it better than an explanation when talking about microsituations...

 

[AustinRC]

First Pewpewu now you too Kevin. I SEE HOW THIS IS.

 

[lokt]

Even dash grabbing a crouching puff can be dangerous. Her jump squat makes her go even lower so she can wavedash in place when Marth comes forward to grab her and rest him. I've actually found a new safe way to land grabs vs puff and I did a video on it. Link below for the Marth vs Puff tutorial.

Here!!

I really liked the video!

You asked for future video topics at the end, I guess I'll post here instead of on youtube:

Could you talk about marth's options after hitting down tilt on an opponent in neutral? Specifically vs sheik, I find that I back up way too much after hitting dtilt and get destroyed close range. I'm going to try to m2k it by doing dtilt-->immediate grab more but i feel like there's a more nuanced answer.

 

[capusa27]

Hi Dr Peepee

I was reading up on Gravy's pivot method a while back. What place do you think pivot D-Tilt has in Marth's ground game? I could see this being especially problematic for floaty characters. Another way I could see this being effective is deterring Fox from going for jab up-smash as well as conditioning for more pivot grabs/aerials.

Do you think it is actually worth investing your time to practice, or is wavedash D-Tilt strictly better? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

defensively I think pivot Dtilt is fairly good. Offensively I don't think it's useful at all. It's definitely better than WD Dtilt in certain situations for sure.

 

[bts.mongoose]

I often hear people talk about how you need to build up "respect" for your hitboxes, or that you need to make your sword felt without swinging it. Let me know if I'm wrong about any of the following: I interpret this as meaning you show your opponent, through zoning, that they can't "get away" with thoughtless rush down approaches our counterattacks. However, it seems likely to me that when it's an excellent player vs an excellent player, like, for instance, M2K vs Leffen, Leffen already knows that he can't get away with those things. He respects M2K before the match even begins. My questions are, firstly, am I completely misinterpreting these concepts? And secondly, if not, how can I learn how to gain this respect from my opponent, if top player vs top player matches don't show it?

 

[Zorcey]

I often hear people talk about how you need to build up "respect" for your hitboxes, or that you need to make your sword felt without swinging it. Let me know if I'm wrong about any of the following: I interpret this as meaning you show your opponent, through zoning, that they can't "get away" with thoughtless rush down approaches our counterattacks. However, it seems likely to me that when it's an excellent player vs an excellent player, like, for instance, M2K vs Leffen, Leffen already knows that he can't get away with those things. He respects M2K before the match even begins. My questions are, firstly, am I completely misinterpreting these concepts? And secondly, if not, how can I learn how to gain this respect from my opponent, if top player vs top player matches don't show it?

I think I can address this in part at least, and hopefully if I can't someone else will correct me in turn.

First of all, I think it's misleading to say you "need to make your sword felt without swinging it" without context. Zoning comes after respect, not before it. An opponent isn't afraid of you slashing through air or taking empty space, they're afraid of you slashing through them and taking their space. If an opponent doesn't think you're going to hit them, they will treat you like you won't hit them; and then you'll have to hit them to let them know will f'ing hit them. Respect can only be achieved if you know you can swing, and your opponent does too.

I think I'm going to write a post detailing my understanding of respect. You'll probably have to think critically a little to determine if it's helpful for you, because it's from a theory perspective and a lot of people hate that ****. But if not for your understanding, then for my own and for anyone who cares I guess.

So to determine the place of respect in Melee you have to start with the premise that all moves in the game have a constant effect. Regardless of what effect that is, every move will always do some particular, unchanging thing in a given situation. This is fundamental to analysis of any concept in Melee, including respect.

That said, knowing that inputting this move in this situation will do something is a vague and useless abstract - you want to know what the something is here so you can abuse it in your matches. This knowledge is where "respect" becomes an important concept, because respect is ultimately the product of players' knowledge.

Let's use a (very) simple concrete example. So you're Marth playing against a Fox, and this Fox is riding his nairplane and hitting you over and over again. But then you realize that he sux and that's all he's going to approach with, so you start SH fairing to stuff his ass. The Fox says, "lul he keeps hitting me when I nair" and stops spamming it. This is you forcing respect. Now the Fox realizes that when you recognize the situation of a nair approach, you will swing, and you will hit him. It is at this point you are able to zone without actually swinging; all you have to do is put yourself in a situation where you are able to SH fair, and the Fox must respect that. Before all this occurred, the Fox did not know you would swing and beat his nair, and he could not respect you (so he didn't) - you had to actually swing before respect could be established.

To relate this to a top level Marth/Fox mu such as Mew2King/Leffen, where both players know what the other is capable of, yes, respect is established before the set even begins. But should Leffen suspect Mew2King will not SH fair when he nairs him, he'll go for it because he no longer respects the fair. Mew2King must again swing to reestablish respect if Leffen gets away with that too many times. Respect is a flux. Too much respect and you become frozen in fear of a counterattack; too little and you get what little brains you seem to have had beaten out. You have to know what you can get away with and when.

Tl;dr: Given the premise of the immutability of Melee, there are two requirements for the establishment of respect for a move: 1) player with the move must know to use the move in a given situation; 2) player playing against the move must know it will be used in a given situation. The absence of either of these conditions makes respect impossible. Respect is the product of players' knowledge of the game. This is why game knowledge and mu knowledge are important things, because, in the example, if the Fox had stayed on his nairplane instead of getting off because he didn't realize what was happening, he would have gotten four-stocked and become a Sheik main. Know your character, know your mus, and know your opponent. Write that **** down.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I often hear people talk about how you need to build up "respect" for your hitboxes, or that you need to make your sword felt without swinging it. Let me know if I'm wrong about any of the following: I interpret this as meaning you show your opponent, through zoning, that they can't "get away" with thoughtless rush down approaches our counterattacks. However, it seems likely to me that when it's an excellent player vs an excellent player, like, for instance, M2K vs Leffen, Leffen already knows that he can't get away with those things. He respects M2K before the match even begins. My questions are, firstly, am I completely misinterpreting these concepts? And secondly, if not, how can I learn how to gain this respect from my opponent, if top player vs top player matches don't show it?

Aside from exceptions, your opponent usually has to go throught your threat zones to hit you. Using defensive hitboxes often enough disincentivizes them from being inside your threat zone, which means rushdown approaches make less sense, and which also means that when you move forward, they will have to do something about it, which can force them to give up space or do an attack that can be, if avoided, whiffpunished.
It should be noted that "forcing the respect" is fundamental to the game state and the mixup situation in it and not limited to lower skill levels. In your example, Leffen only can't get away with, let's say, dash sh nair approaches, if M2K uses defensive hitboxes from time to time, and M2K not doing so at all would therefore be an exploitable mistake. On the other hand, not using this unsubtle rushdown at all would mean M2K wouldn't need to use defensive hitboxes that can potentially be punished.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I often hear people talk about how you need to build up "respect" for your hitboxes, or that you need to make your sword felt without swinging it. Let me know if I'm wrong about any of the following: I interpret this as meaning you show your opponent, through zoning, that they can't "get away" with thoughtless rush down approaches our counterattacks. However, it seems likely to me that when it's an excellent player vs an excellent player, like, for instance, M2K vs Leffen, Leffen already knows that he can't get away with those things. He respects M2K before the match even begins. My questions are, firstly, am I completely misinterpreting these concepts? And secondly, if not, how can I learn how to gain this respect from my opponent, if top player vs top player matches don't show it?

Having some respect your hitboxes is just a nice way of saying they feel your threats in a given situation given a certain action from you. So if I dash forward and my opponent SHs into me/backs up as a response, then they respect my dash Dtilt in that scenario.

Now as you get better you can make certain assumptions especially after watching videos. The thing is that the other player, especially at top level will be doing the same thing. It's not wise to go into a set fully expecting everything the other person will do and still allow them chances to show their hand through feints when possible. The only constants I feel are the fundamentals of the game, and this is why strengthening your own gameplan forces greatest respect from the opponent regardless of level.

 

[bts.mongoose]

Immensely helpful replies, thanks all.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee Could an interpretation of "investment in loss" mean that you're detaching yourself from one of the two outcomes of the game, while still aiming to practice strategies that would eventually lead to the outcome you desire? That's just what I've been feeling when I've been practicing as of late.

 

[Dr Peepee]

An argument can be made that detaching from all results is best, but there is also something to be said for the fire to win and goals. I couldn't tell you which is better for you but if it's working the way you're doing it then keep going.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee when trying to construct gameplans for myself, I have trouble determining what to prioritize when my goal is to hone that gamplan rather than just win the next game. I don't how much to value different skills in order to make my gameplan as adaptable as possible for learning.

I figure there are three important kinds of knowledge here: (my) character, matchup, and player knowledge. Knowing that, what do I do with each kind of knowledge in my gameplan? Should I constantly change my gameplan radically and approach interactions in different ways? Or should I pick say, a gameplan designed to acquire character knowledge and run with it until I know everything I possibly can about Marth? Do I bother analyzing Puff videos before I improve my pivot Fsmashes? Should I exploit bad habits to get good at it, or is that a bad thing to do before I'm ready to play to win?

I guess the core thing I'm asking is, would it be better for my development as a player to structure what I learn and when? I kind of feel like I'm randomly picking out scenarios to work on before practicing right now - it seems to be working, but I'm curious if there's a better way.

 

[Blatant J]

Why do top players still get ken comboed? Is it just poor DI or a DI mixup with dolphin slash?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee when trying to construct gameplans for myself, I have trouble determining what to prioritize when my goal is to hone that gamplan rather than just win the next game. I don't how much to value different skills in order to make my gameplan as adaptable as possible for learning.

I figure there are three important kinds of knowledge here: (my) character, matchup, and player knowledge. Knowing that, what do I do with each kind of knowledge in my gameplan? Should I constantly change my gameplan radically and approach interactions in different ways? Or should I pick say, a gameplan designed to acquire character knowledge and run with it until I know everything I possibly can about Marth? Do I bother analyzing Puff videos before I improve my pivot Fsmashes? Should I exploit bad habits to get good at it, or is that a bad thing to do before I'm ready to play to win?

I guess the core thing I'm asking is, would it be better for my development as a player to structure what I learn and when? I kind of feel like I'm randomly picking out scenarios to work on before practicing right now - it seems to be working, but I'm curious if there's a better way.

What I think is most helpful is looking at the divisions of the game that feed into everything. Neutral(and its subdivisions), punish, and so on. However the stuff you said ties into all of that more or less so you'll still results that way. The most important thing is to keep building a plan until you feel solid in your understanding of it. That's a good foundation then. Always be flexible in your approach to learning, but feel confidence in what you learn if that makes sense. Maybe it's just better to say the most important thing is just doing the learning process and adjusting it along the way until you find what works best for you.

Why do top players still get ken comboed? Is it just poor DI or a DI mixup with dolphin slash?

Sometimes they're caught off guard or just scared/nervous and hold in as a result. Sometimes it's a mixup. Sometimes people get Fair'd out of neutral and they might be holding in which is an easy dair.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
A question about combo DI:
In most cases, it is the usual recommendation to DI down+away to avoid followups, with a few exceptions. There are a few combos where you will get hit by the same moves for most DIs, and if you DI down+away you just end up further offstage, making it more difficult to recover. If I remember correctly Falcon's up-throw->2xup-air starting at low-mid%s is an example for this.
My question is if there is any sort of thumbrule for when this case might apply and when down+away is simply superior. Intuitively I would say that it happens more with fast characters (Falcon, Fox, sometimes Marth) because they have less problems covering down+away, so other bottlenecks (such as the opponent landing on a platform or being too far offstage to combo) might break the combo before being too slow to cover down+away breaks the combo. But I'm pretty sure there is more to it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Mmmm....

some off the top of my head:

-characters that need you to stay lower, go up

-characters that are faster, up and out may be better than down and out so you can jump out

-Marth himself has a ton of DI mixups and Falco has a few too so they will be pretty big exception characters

 

[ElectricBlade]

What I think is most helpful is looking at the divisions of the game that feed into everything. Neutral(and its subdivisions), punish, and so on. However the stuff you said ties into all of that more or less so you'll still results that way. The most important thing is to keep building a plan until you feel solid in your understanding of it. That's a good foundation then. Always be flexible in your approach to learning, but feel confidence in what you learn if that makes sense. Maybe it's just better to say the most important thing is just doing the learning process and adjusting it along the way until you find what works best for you.


Sometimes they're caught off guard or just scared/nervous and hold in as a result. Sometimes it's a mixup. Sometimes people get Fair'd out of neutral and they might be holding in which is an easy dair.

What would the subdivisions of Neutral be in specific?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Punish has subdivisions too but less of them imo. I don't have full neutral divisions mapped out yet since I haven't figured out how to package my ideas to everyone yet, but I can list a few ideas I have:

-threatening range(TR) fighting

-in-fighting(inside TR)

-out-fighting(outside TR)

Then there are some supplementary things that feed into it like frames, punish game(fear of punish changes neutral), etc

 

[Kopaka]

Punish has subdivisions too but less of them imo. I don't have full neutral divisions mapped out yet since I haven't figured out how to package my ideas to everyone yet, but I can list a few ideas I have:

-threatening range(TR) fighting

-in-fighting(inside TR)

-out-fighting(outside TR)

Then there are some supplementary things that feed into it like frames, punish game(fear of punish changes neutral), etc

Damn. The further we're taken down the rabbit hole with this.. Going back and reading older posts here and your videos and my videos and then thinking about the game, and what you've been writing lately, I won't lie it's a lot to take in. But if it was that easy then everyone would click with it overnight I suppose. Thanks again.

 

[Zorcey]

Punish has subdivisions too but less of them imo. I don't have full neutral divisions mapped out yet since I haven't figured out how to package my ideas to everyone yet, but I can list a few ideas I have:

-threatening range(TR) fighting

-in-fighting(inside TR)

-out-fighting(outside TR)

Then there are some supplementary things that feed into it like frames, punish game(fear of punish changes neutral), etc

Hm, wouldn't anything other than threatening range and the spaces inside and outside of it be subdivisions of subdivisions tho? I suppose things such as options and frame data and terrain would affect a player's approach to these different kinds of spaces, but should one think of them as independent divisions when they vary with matchup and stage? It sounds like a semantic thing but idk I feel like asking whether one should look at Neutral from the perspective of themselves or their environment is important.

What do you think PP? Do you tend to consider your position and what you can do or the positions of things and what could happen around you more in Neutral? I know both are ultimately important, but is either one any more fundamental? Is what you think about Neutral when theorycrafting much different from what you do in a match?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm, wouldn't anything other than threatening range and the spaces inside and outside of it be subdivisions of subdivisions tho? I suppose things such as options and frame data and terrain would affect a player's approach to these different kinds of spaces, but should one think of them as independent divisions when they vary with matchup and stage? It sounds like a semantic thing but idk I feel like asking whether one should look at Neutral from the perspective of themselves or their environment is important.

What do you think PP? Do you tend to consider your position and what you can do or the positions of things and what could happen around you more in Neutral? I know both are ultimately important, but is either one any more fundamental? Is what you think about Neutral when theorycrafting much different from what you do in a match?

Well I think you could subdivide threatening range that way if you wanted. This is just a loose framework for how I think of it to myself.

I could also have added things like rhythm to this but I feel that could very well be doing more harm than good.

To address you more directly, there are important things to understand from isolating variables and examining them alone. Yes everything is truly interconnected and in context, but that means we need to understand each part individually to figure out how the whole works. I hope that makes sense.

 

[Zorcey]

Well I think you could subdivide threatening range that way if you wanted. This is just a loose framework for how I think of it to myself.

I could also have added things like rhythm to this but I feel that could very well be doing more harm than good.

To address you more directly, there are important things to understand from isolating variables and examining them alone. Yes everything is truly interconnected and in context, but that means we need to understand each part individually to figure out how the whole works. I hope that makes sense.

That definitely makes sense, and is kind of what I figured with the discussion about subdivisions and subdivisions of subdivisions lol; it would be pretty overwhelming if you tried to take in the depth of every aspect of Neutral (or any game state really) all at once. This seems particularly true when considering elements like rhythm, because I know that's complex all on its own. (And it could actually be considered an independent division, come to think of it? Since it relates to all three spaces in Neutral at once?)

Would you mind explaining your conception of rhythm in Neutral? That's something I haven't touched in practice yet and really want to, but I've seen flashes of it during matches.

I feel like I'm experiencing this more and more as I spend more time with the game, where I occasionally come into touch with the rhythm of the movements, and my focus sort of clicks into place? It's actually an incredible feeling how aligned with the game I suddenly feel, and it shows in my play. Tho this sounds like "the zone" which may apply to more than just rhythm, but for me it feels like a rhythmic thing - like a piano sheet I've memorized and now just flows naturally, idk if that analogy makes sense. I just feel the beat, and the changes in the beat, and sequences of movements almost become like musical figures within the beat.

That's a little of what I feel in any case, maybe some of it resonates with you and you can identify it/help me out. I want to start harnessing rhythm in Neutral at will, but it's a pretty deep concept in theory and probably volatile in practice. Where I'm most uncertain sort of ties into my original question, but now you have your movements and the movements of what's around you, and the game becomes, in a sense, like a duet. I know in a duet you need to know your part first, and then you listen for your partner's cues until you know them well, and then you're in sync. Could the same be said of Melee?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That definitely makes sense, and is kind of what I figured with the discussion about subdivisions and subdivisions of subdivisions lol; it would be pretty overwhelming if you tried to take in the depth of every aspect of Neutral (or any game state really) all at once. This seems particularly true when considering elements like rhythm, because I know that's complex all on its own. (And it could actually be considered an independent division, come to think of it? Since it relates to all three spaces in Neutral at once?)

Would you mind explaining your conception of rhythm in Neutral? That's something I haven't touched in practice yet and really want to, but I've seen flashes of it during matches.

I feel like I'm experiencing this more and more as I spend more time with the game, where I occasionally come into touch with the rhythm of the movements, and my focus sort of clicks into place? It's actually an incredible feeling how aligned with the game I suddenly feel, and it shows in my play. Tho this sounds like "the zone" which may apply to more than just rhythm, but for me it feels like a rhythmic thing - like a piano sheet I've memorized and now just flows naturally, idk if that analogy makes sense. I just feel the beat, and the changes in the beat, and sequences of movements almost become like musical figures within the beat.

That's a little of what I feel in any case, maybe some of it resonates with you and you can identify it/help me out. I want to start harnessing rhythm in Neutral at will, but it's a pretty deep concept in theory and probably volatile in practice. Where I'm most uncertain sort of ties into my original question, but now you have your movements and the movements of what's around you, and the game becomes, in a sense, like a duet. I know in a duet you need to know your part first, and then you listen for your partner's cues until you know them well, and then you're in sync. Could the same be said of Melee?

I think rhythm overlaps with what you're doing, that is to say it would help you somewhat, but more fundamentally you just need deeper connection to the game/yourself to get into deeper flow.

Rhythm to me is like being on beat in music. You time your inputs with quarter notes to go slow and eighths and so on to go faster(as an example, slow and fast can be somewhat relative sometimes). If an opponent is following your rhythm and then you break it, say you went quickly then slowed down or vice versa, your opponent would still be following the old rhythm and it would take time to adjust.

I don't particularly advise anyone looking deeply into rhythm unless they're a very high level player since I think it could get in the way of learning fundamentals more, but I hope that explanation makes some sense.

 

[beasterday]

I think rhythm overlaps with what you're doing, that is to say it would help you somewhat, but more fundamentally you just need deeper connection to the game/yourself to get into deeper flow.

Rhythm to me is like being on beat in music. You time your inputs with quarter notes to go slow and eighths and so on to go faster(as an example, slow and fast can be somewhat relative sometimes). If an opponent is following your rhythm and then you break it, say you went quickly then slowed down or vice versa, your opponent would still be following the old rhythm and it would take time to adjust.

I don't particularly advise anyone looking deeply into rhythm unless they're a very high level player since I think it could get in the way of learning fundamentals more, but I hope that explanation makes some sense.

Hey PP you may or may not reply but how did your movement get so good over the years what was your practice method?

 

[Kopaka]

I think rhythm overlaps with what you're doing, that is to say it would help you somewhat, but more fundamentally you just need deeper connection to the game/yourself to get into deeper flow.

Rhythm to me is like being on beat in music. You time your inputs with quarter notes to go slow and eighths and so on to go faster(as an example, slow and fast can be somewhat relative sometimes). If an opponent is following your rhythm and then you break it, say you went quickly then slowed down or vice versa, your opponent would still be following the old rhythm and it would take time to adjust.

I don't particularly advise anyone looking deeply into rhythm unless they're a very high level player since I think it could get in the way of learning fundamentals more, but I hope that explanation makes some sense.

This is pretty generalized and broad and I think we touched on this briefly a few pages back as it led to respect: Then on the opposite side of looking at this, playing against players of varying rhythms or more noticeably, speeds. Someone could do very well against playing against someone of a slower speed compared to someone who plays much faster, and vice versa is definitely possible. Very broadly speaking, if they have the fundamentals internalized or however you'd like to put it, this probably wouldn't be so much of a problem for them. There could be some adjustments needed for each though. I think you wrote way back in this thread or maybe it was the Falco thread that speed is required when fighting? And to get that you've got to practice what's important.

And for beasterday , you may want to read this: http://i.imgur.com/M0nr8tV.png

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I did write that I think Falco requires speed to be successful, at least most of the time. Marth gets the luxury of a wider range of speed in my opinion.

 

[bts.mongoose]

So I think that it's pretty imperative that in every matchup I have a good, fleshed out gameplan going in. But presently, my strategy for developing a gameplan has been watching top level Marths in various matchups and trying to get an idea of the kind of positions they try to set up, the moves they use in neutral, how they normally get conversions, etc., as well as what the opponent seems to be trying to do in that matchup. But I'm beginning to suspect that this process may be at best inefficient, and at worst detrimental. How do you suggest one goes about developing a gameplan or "learning a matchup," as well as how one should go about improving that gameplan?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Dr Peepee
In your interview with Tafo, you mention that you think the metagame hasn't evolved too much in the last 2 years compared to the previous years. From my limited perspective it looks like the metagame progress hasn't slowed down, a lot of matchups completely changed in nature, and there are innovations both in terms of gameplans and micro-situations. Some of this might rather fit into the category of improving the level of execution at what was already there, if that's what you meant. Can you elaborate?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I think that it's pretty imperative that in every matchup I have a good, fleshed out gameplan going in. But presently, my strategy for developing a gameplan has been watching top level Marths in various matchups and trying to get an idea of the kind of positions they try to set up, the moves they use in neutral, how they normally get conversions, etc., as well as what the opponent seems to be trying to do in that matchup. But I'm beginning to suspect that this process may be at best inefficient, and at worst detrimental. How do you suggest one goes about developing a gameplan or "learning a matchup," as well as how one should go about improving that gameplan?

Watching top players is fine. You should also watch players a bit+ better than you so you have a better idea of what they're going for.

Dr Peepee
In your interview with Tafo, you mention that you think the metagame hasn't evolved too much in the last 2 years compared to the previous years. From my limited perspective it looks like the metagame progress hasn't slowed down, a lot of matchups completely changed in nature, and there are innovations both in terms of gameplans and micro-situations. Some of this might rather fit into the category of improving the level of execution at what was already there, if that's what you meant. Can you elaborate?

If you can give me examples where you think things clearly changed drastically then I'll be convinced of your position. People got faster and their understanding improved some, but not to any extreme degree. People are better at SDI and shield dropping now. But stuff like Sfat learning to camp Hbox like people who beat him already do isn't new it's just his way of doing it for example. Now player matchups could change a lot like what happened with M2K Armada but I don't think there was a lot of new ideas there just some small refinements.

 

[Zorcey]

If you can give me examples where you think things clearly changed drastically then I'll be convinced of your position. People got faster and their understanding improved some, but not to any extreme degree. People are better at SDI and shield dropping now. But stuff like Sfat learning to camp Hbox like people who beat him already do isn't new it's just his way of doing it for example. Now player matchups could change a lot like what happened with M2K Armada but I don't think there was a lot of new ideas there just some small refinements.

What do you think has caused the progression of the meta to slow PP? I wouldn't figure you'd say it's because top level players are approaching complete theoretical understanding of matchups, but idk what your analysis would be really.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would prefer not to answer because I don't want these thoughts spread(not because I'm afraid of people taking my ideas or I wouldn't discuss strategy in here). All I will say is much more can be done.

 

[Andu]

I imagine this explanation will need some clarifying so if anyone has questions about it let me know.

I was wondering if you'd be willing to go into deeper explanation of the relationship between compound movement and intention theory. Or, perhaps provide some useful links that allow me to research the two topics myself.

My second question is this;
We've had very short discussions about practicing before, and you've delved into how you practice in short on your stream. I'm not sure if this has been brought up here yet, but I was wondering if you could elaborate some on "Going back to basics."

I understand that this entails things like practicing wavedashing, L-Canceling, Wavelands, generally using your moves and hitboxes. However, there is something to be said about the structure of one's practice and analysis that I'm not sure has been touched upon, and I would literally pay to learn some more about how you structure your personal practice and analysis.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

If you can give me examples where you think things clearly changed drastically then I'll be convinced of your position. People got faster and their understanding improved some, but not to any extreme degree. People are better at SDI and shield dropping now. But stuff like Sfat learning to camp Hbox like people who beat him already do isn't new it's just his way of doing it for example. Now player matchups could change a lot like what happened with M2K Armada but I don't think there was a lot of new ideas there just some small refinements.

Examples that come to my mind are:

Fox v Jigglypuff:
I think since Hungrybox's "ascension" a lot of development has happened here, maybe the matchup is the one which developed the most in the last 2 years (it is still relatively unexplored compared to many others, but it was way worse before that). We see multiple different approaches from different Foxes, and several of them do very well (after all, it's a good matchup for Fox). The concepts that looked most convincing to me abused Fox's clearly superior vertical movement, not trying to beat the bair horizontally any more because it is a mixup that is often disadvantageous. Also there are a lot of different forms of positional advantages, and seemingly neutral looking gamestates can be favoured for one side, and players have become better at recognizing this. To give an example, Armada often allowed Jigglypuff to short hop or full jump towards him from across the stage in the past, which leads to Jigglypuff being able to force Fox into the corner with the bair threat zone, and even this is not always safe if Jigglypuff goes for the read with pound. In more recent sets he will use fj nair to challenge the jump by using it preemptively, and if you fall down on Jiggs with it you beat bair. Alternatively, he will only retreat as much as needed in this specific moment and full jumps out after the landing, so bair can't hit anymore and grab not yet.

Plup:
Plup innovated a lot recently. He created a few blueprint sets for Sheik vs Jigglypuff which has never been played at a this level before (although Shroomed had some close sets against Hungrybox). In every matchup, his skirmishing is very refined, to the point where I think it should be considered a big leap, but I haven't looked into it enough to be able to tell what exactly makes it so good.

ASDI down/Crouch-cancelling:
Just in general, but especially Falcon players, because the character is good at it, and he needs it. Not sure if all of this is new, but at least it is applied much more. I've heard of players holding c-stick down during dash dancing when at low %s to option select it every time, which might be new. I think there is also a lot of potential for CC even when the resulting frame advantage isn't enough for a punish, because they will either be at risk of getting hit or will have to commit to something that could get whiffpunished, but I haven't really seen that enough to count it.

Defensive maneouvres:
next to SDI which you mentioned, slide-off DI has improved a lot (against upward attacks at low %s, in platform techchases, against low angle attacks at higher %s), as has teching when recovering.

Gameplans:
In terms of gameplans, in a few matchups (non-dittos) where it was common to see both players dashdancing and mixing in some moves of their neutral game arsenal here and there, this kind of neutral game gameplay can be advantageous for one character, often the faster one at higher range and the one with the more fearsome neutral game tools (like Marth, Sheik with grab, grab/dash attack) at mid-range. To avoid being in mid-range too long, fast characters have shifted away from DD+SHFFL gameplans in many cases, instead trying to close the distance asap. Fox players now often just dash in completely to avoid standing in these threat zones for too long, while using some other option (like a dash in->crossup full jump) to be able to punish a defensive hitbox. I'm not sure how much of an innovation this is, because maneouvres like running shine definitely exist for ages, but from my point of view the understanding of the neutral game has changed in some way. The same thing can be seen with Captain Falcon, although it is usually combined with aerials and often the hitbox s just "sprayed" to cover one or multiple dash patterns, preferably dash away, which often acted as a get-out-of-jail-free card in the past.

I have to admit though that Falco and Marth development definitely suffered from your absence

Please to correct me on anything if anything is wrong, I'm not 100% sure about a lot of this as they are mostly own observations that could fall prey to all kinds of errors and biases...