Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Zorcey]

I do feel that letting the subconscious do the work is fine, provided you've done the necessary time using conscious thought to practice the skill and deepen awareness and understanding.

Going off of that PP, when playing to learn and when practicing new skills and all, how much would you reccomend engaging conscious thought? I find myself kind of getting ****ed when I'm trying to implement new skills mid-game, because it's hard to remember to use a new skill if I don't make an effort. The problem is I feel like I might be building bad muscle memory when I'm neglecting maintenance of other skills and losing situations I shouldn't. Is this a silly fear, or should I change my approach? I'm sure you've answered this question before, sorry, but could you maybe elaborate on your methodology for playing to learn?

 

[lokt]

Hey guys, I've been struggling with immediate fox full hop nair in neutral a bit, it seems to have a bit more range than sh nair, catching me with bad spacing. Should I be dash dancing further away, or maybe dashing in vs full hop nair to take center stage? I'm considering wavedash down--> crouch cancel as well.

 

[Kyomaku]

Going off of that PP, when playing to learn and when practicing new skills and all, how much would you reccomend engaging conscious thought? I find myself kind of getting ****ed when I'm trying to implement new skills mid-game, because it's hard to remember to use a new skill if I don't make an effort. The problem is I feel like I might be building bad muscle memory when I'm neglecting maintenance of other skills and losing situations I shouldn't. Is this a silly fear, or should I change my approach? I'm sure you've answered this question before, sorry, but could you maybe elaborate on your methodology for playing to learn?

I've been playing to learn for my entire life, no matter what I did, so I kinda feel like sharing my thoughts on it. This is simply my experience with it and things that worked for me and maybe they will for you as well. Hopefully PP will give his own take on it as well, as I'd be curious about his thoughts, too.

I think playing to learn is really simple but sometimes frustrating. It's a mentality. For me, it means my focus is on improving and it's what motivates me. The way that affects your game? Because you are mentally focused on improving, you are looking out for things to improve. You are not playing to win, but to learn, literally. So you shouldn't be as concerned about messing up. I think it's really good to want to win and try to play your best, but I think it should take second to learning (exceptions..).

A crucial part of learning is failure. Experimenting and finding out what works and what doesn't, hence again, if you are playing to learn, messing up is a part of that. This process can be sped up if you seek out the experience from others, who have already gone through many steps of failure until finding what works, which is what many of us are doing here, but you should still experiment with that knowledge yourself to memorize it and understand why it is correct so that you can build on it.

Regarding your questions, I think conscious thought is totally fine when experimenting and practicing new skills, it is partly essential. But you need the correct environment for that, hence you are maybe subconsciously feeling that you're doing something wrong. Do you have a practice partner to fool around with? I notice that when I play with people I'm not very close with, I tend to start caring a lot more about playing to win and experimenting less, afraid to attempt something that I haven't practiced often enough yet (not reliable to use in a game, yet). But there's ironically the error, you need to attempt and practice it until you get better at it. Some things you can practice pretty well alone, but some things require an opponent, hence you'll probably want to find yourself a nice environment where you can simply fool around with ideas and fail without worrying about anything. You could go as far as asking your practice partner to repeatedly play a specific scenario with you, so that you can attempt to utilize the said new skill until you feel comfortable. The next step then is starting to feel comfortable using it in a normal game, so spam matches with your friend and if you get an opportunity, use it. Your success rate should gradually go up and once you feel comfortable there, you'll want to try using it in an environment, that you feel less comfortable in (vs strangers). You might get frustrated at times, failure is really frustrating for some (me included), but it can also be a drive to try harder.

Regarding muscle memory/other skills. I don't see how you would build bad muscle memory from practicing/experimenting with new tech? You probably don't want to respond to something the exact same way every time, but otherwise I see no risk. It's good to be conscious of what you're doing sometimes, and if you're not good at recognizing what you're getting punished for, you could try recording your own games and analyzing yourself, finding your bad habits, stuff you do too often in a certain situation. But yes, you shouldn't neglect other aspects. A routine can greatly help there, something where you quickly practice and refresh all the basic skills you need. Ippo has something good on YouTube for you there. Regarding losing situations that you shouldn't, I covered that above, doesn't matter, you're not playing to win, you're trying to learn something. And I personally don't think it's a silly fear, it simply means that you care and don't want to go wrong. Always good to remember though, if something seems too complicated or difficult to master, break it down and practice it separately.

What I also wanted to say regarding the "how much conscious thought" question, you just need to be aware that the more conscious thought you put into something, the worse you'll do at everything else. That's fine while practicing, as long as you acknowledge that simple fact and don't get too frustrated over it. If you require too much conscious thought to use something, you should probably do what I described above and first get more comfortable with it overall. I think essentially, you only want to consciously look out for the situation and the execution should already be entirely subconscious. Otherwise, regarding conscious and subconscious play, you could go back 1-2 pages in this thread, I asked PPMD about that and he gave some very insightful answers, which also helped me a lot.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Going off of that PP, when playing to learn and when practicing new skills and all, how much would you reccomend engaging conscious thought? I find myself kind of getting ****ed when I'm trying to implement new skills mid-game, because it's hard to remember to use a new skill if I don't make an effort. The problem is I feel like I might be building bad muscle memory when I'm neglecting maintenance of other skills and losing situations I shouldn't. Is this a silly fear, or should I change my approach? I'm sure you've answered this question before, sorry, but could you maybe elaborate on your methodology for playing to learn?

Only way you're gonna learn is to practice the skill. Losing really doesn't matter especially in friendlies. It's a conditioned response to tense up about losing, so practicing letting go doubles as good investment in loss as well as teaching yourself new skills like playing to learn. The end result is someone who doesn't fear losing but is sharp and hungry for the win. A great competitor!

Hey guys, I've been struggling with immediate fox full hop nair in neutral a bit, it seems to have a bit more range than sh nair, catching me with bad spacing. Should I be dash dancing further away, or maybe dashing in vs full hop nair to take center stage? I'm considering wavedash down--> crouch cancel as well.

You don't need to WD down before the CC unless you call it hard in advance, in which case there are better options. You can dash/WD away and tipper it. You can Fair/Uair it. You can DD less often and Utilt it. You can CC grab it out of DD. Just play around with these options and look for the spacings that get you. You'll figure it out.

Edit: Oh yeah can't believe I forget to mention you need to alter your DD so you can grab it. Chivalruse makes a good post below.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Hey guys, I've been struggling with immediate fox full hop nair in neutral a bit, it seems to have a bit more range than sh nair, catching me with bad spacing. Should I be dash dancing further away, or maybe dashing in vs full hop nair to take center stage? I'm considering wavedash down--> crouch cancel as well.

Depending on the stage, you can usually dash dance under either of the side platforms which will cut off a full jump approach option entirely! You can use this as a semi-safezone to protect you from full jump->double jump baits. On the whole, though, full jump approaches are much easier to react to with JC grab or pivot grab than SHFFL'd ones if you keep your dash dances precise.

 

[lokt]

Depending on the stage, you can usually dash dance under either of the side platforms which will cut off a full jump approach option entirely! You can use this as a semi-safezone to protect you from full jump->double jump baits. On the whole, though, full jump approaches are much easier to react to with JC grab or pivot grab than SHFFL'd ones if you keep your dash dances precise.

Yeah I agree that it is a lot easier to react to the full hop approaches if i'm positioned properly. The problem I have with that is that I'm trying to dash as close to the opponent as possible while still being able to deal with sh nair, which leaves me more vulnerable to the full hop.

So I'd have to give up more space in order to grab that approach; I'd probably have to shift my dash dance range before the opponent full hop nairs forward. I'm not sure if I should be shifting my dash dance on reaction or just playing at a further range.

Also good point about the side platforms, I usually only encounter this mixup on battlefield/stadium/fd.

Anyways thanks for the inspiration, I'll be messing around with my dash dance spacing, and try out the tools pp mentioned in his post.

 

[herbology]

PP, you've mentioned before that powershielding lasers can be unsafe/not the end all response. Can't find the direct quote but you stress the ability to move in spite of lasers.

Do you think that z-powershields would change the viability of that option? Given the larger powershield bubble can reflect the laser 1 frame earlier (which increases the frame window), can powershield low lasers while moving/facing forward, and can lead to a dtilt as seen here https://gfycat.com/LeadingHandsomeBernesemountaindog (which I also assume allows for grab), would this make marth more viable in the neutral?

After practicing z-powershield and 'a' buffered during wavedash, dash, or before the start of a match (which has been surprisingly useful) for only a short time, I've been implementing them into my game with pretty good results against local falcos. I feel like this gives me a response that doesn't force me to turn my back or give up stage. Would this be applicable in the more competitive metagame? Are there counter-options that more experienced falcos would use in response aside from faking the laser?

Additionally, regarding pivots, what input method do you use for pivot aerials and pivot grab? Do you just aim to time it perfectly or do you use a pivot like this? http://i.imgur.com/3o3eiwJ.png

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah I agree that it is a lot easier to react to the full hop approaches if i'm positioned properly. The problem I have with that is that I'm trying to dash as close to the opponent as possible while still being able to deal with sh nair, which leaves me more vulnerable to the full hop.

So I'd have to give up more space in order to grab that approach; I'd probably have to shift my dash dance range before the opponent full hop nairs forward. I'm not sure if I should be shifting my dash dance on reaction or just playing at a further range.

Also good point about the side platforms, I usually only encounter this mixup on battlefield/stadium/fd.

Anyways thanks for the inspiration, I'll be messing around with my dash dance spacing, and try out the tools pp mentioned in his post.

A convenient byproduct of dash dancing while looking specifically for a running SHFFL attack is that you are subconsciously also prepping to visually react to a full jump approach as well, IF you are able to act without hesitation. You need to be able to adjust your dash dance / fox trot positioning on the fly based on where you need to be spaced to cause the enemy's aerial to whiff. In the case of a full jump nair, usually one extra fox trot back iteration is enough to adjust your spacing. Depending on the tempo of their jump, you can also substitute a wavedash back -> dash dance grab / pivot grab for the foxtrot.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, you've mentioned before that powershielding lasers can be unsafe/not the end all response. Can't find the direct quote but you stress the ability to move in spite of lasers.

Do you think that z-powershields would change the viability of that option? Given the larger powershield bubble can reflect the laser 1 frame earlier (which increases the frame window), can powershield low lasers while moving/facing forward, and can lead to a dtilt as seen here https://gfycat.com/LeadingHandsomeBernesemountaindog (which I also assume allows for grab), would this make marth more viable in the neutral?

After practicing z-powershield and 'a' buffered during wavedash, dash, or before the start of a match (which has been surprisingly useful) for only a short time, I've been implementing them into my game with pretty good results against local falcos. I feel like this gives me a response that doesn't force me to turn my back or give up stage. Would this be applicable in the more competitive metagame? Are there counter-options that more experienced falcos would use in response aside from faking the laser?

Additionally, regarding pivots, what input method do you use for pivot aerials and pivot grab? Do you just aim to time it perfectly or do you use a pivot like this? http://i.imgur.com/3o3eiwJ.png

Z-PS is something I don't fully understand admittedly. I feel it could be used to get more PS but I felt there was some tradeoff to it relating to holding down the Z button(for a while beforehand to ensure you got it) or something. I also don't know how low the PS bubble goes because certain very low lasers are really hard or impossible to PS. So this would help with that somewhat, maybe totally. It's a bit tough to say for sure but skewing more towards Z-PS might be alright if there isn't a significant tradeoff. I'd have to play with it and understand it better myself before committing to an opinion.

 

[FE_Hector]

Z-PS is something I don't fully understand admittedly. I feel it could be used to get more PS but I felt there was some tradeoff to it relating to holding down the Z button(for a while beforehand to ensure you got it) or something. I also don't know how low the PS bubble goes because certain very low lasers are really hard or impossible to PS. So this would help with that somewhat, maybe totally. It's a bit tough to say for sure but skewing more towards Z-PS might be alright if there isn't a significant tradeoff. I'd have to play with it and understand it better myself before committing to an opinion.

Zhu actively uses Z-PS against players that have proven themselves really good at powershielding. You could probably speak with him about how it works and the drawbacks.

 

[Kopaka]

Ok Dr Peepee it's been awhile but I've spent all the time since my last post coming up with a really really well thought out deep mind-boggling question thats gonna change the face of Melee

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how the heck do you do the 'crouch-walk'???????????????? i see nothing about it in the inner game of tennis! help! https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=620

 

[herbology]

Z-PS is something I don't fully understand admittedly. I feel it could be used to get more PS but I felt there was some tradeoff to it relating to holding down the Z button(for a while beforehand to ensure you got it) or something. I also don't know how low the PS bubble goes because certain very low lasers are really hard or impossible to PS. So this would help with that somewhat, maybe totally. It's a bit tough to say for sure but skewing more towards Z-PS might be alright if there isn't a significant tradeoff. I'd have to play with it and understand it better myself before committing to an opinion.

Never thought I'd have the opportunity to share something with the great PPMD:
@Kadano 's post: http://smashboards.com/posts/18512581

Takeaways:
Lasers will hit through normal PS on the top of the head while standing and on the feet/lower hurtbox regardless. Z-PS can cover both with a two frame window while standing.
The input is 'A' (which has been held during a wavedash, during the first 4 frames of a dash not done out of dash dance, or after an attack) followed by a simultaneous 'Z' + a digital press of shield. The 'A' can be held for as long as you need once buffered.

Z-Powershield vs. Falco's lowest short hop lasers with Marth

@Kadano disclosed that the frame counter may be off in this gif and I believe this to be true (although I do not have a setup to prove this). I am also not sure why Falco is in hitstun from the laser for so long. However, assuming the recording itself is mostly proper:
In the gif, the lowest laser is Z-PS'd on the 2nd allowable frame and the laser hits Falco 14 frames after the Z-PS. Assuming similitude, if Z-PS is done at max distance, the laser will hit 12 frames after. Thus, if the reflected laser hits and is unstale, after a max distance wavedash, Marth will be either +1 or +3. On shield, Marth would be -1 or +1.

Edit:
Given the position Marth ends up in, I feel as if Z-PS might actually be good at this range and the frame data would probably be better at a slightly closer range as you wouldn't have to wavedash. Kind of like jumping over a fireball in SFV at fullscreen--they might be able to do an invincible wakeup option but you can punish it. If I Z-PS a mixup shine or dair, I can sometimes snap to ledge.
Z-PS pretty much necessitates that you remove/weaken your right trigger spring, but is easy to execute after. Hope this helps!

 

[ChivalRuse]

Ok Dr Peepee it's been awhile but I've spent all the time since my last post coming up with a really really well thought out deep mind-boggling question thats gonna change the face of Melee

.
.

.
.
.

.
how the heck do you do the 'crouch-walk'???????????????? i see nothing about it in the inner game of tennis! help! https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=620

Rapidly alternate the analog stick between 7 o'clock and 8 o'clock.

Z-PS is something I don't fully understand admittedly. I feel it could be used to get more PS but I felt there was some tradeoff to it relating to holding down the Z button(for a while beforehand to ensure you got it) or something. I also don't know how low the PS bubble goes because certain very low lasers are really hard or impossible to PS. So this would help with that somewhat, maybe totally. It's a bit tough to say for sure but skewing more towards Z-PS might be alright if there isn't a significant tradeoff. I'd have to play with it and understand it better myself before committing to an opinion.

It's actually not Z that you have to be holding down. For Z-powershield, you simply:

1. Must be holding down the A button.
2. Must press L or R with enough force to yield a full digital shield. A slightly weaker analog shield press will sabotage the technique.
3. Press Z simultaneously (edit: apparently this input has to register on the same frames as pressing L/R; need confirmation though, as I'm too lazy to dig up the old post).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ok Dr Peepee it's been awhile but I've spent all the time since my last post coming up with a really really well thought out deep mind-boggling question thats gonna change the face of Melee

.
.

.
.
.

.
how the heck do you do the 'crouch-walk'???????????????? i see nothing about it in the inner game of tennis! help! https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=620

ur done for bro

at Z-PS: hmmm holding A? i feel that's not so good, but i guess if you need to attack you can just let go and push a button right? won't people know if you're holding it or not if it's always done out of a WD/attack? i guess that doesn't really help falco since he wouldn't be able to laser, or would have to fight it knowing he would get the laser PS'd back. still, the tradeoff to be able to PS any laser is worth it if you can minimize how obvious the setup is. can Z-PS be improved normal PS ways like with dash back or crouch? i have a feeling the answer is no but I might as well ask.

 

[herbology]

ur done for bro

at Z-PS: hmmm holding A? i feel that's not so good, but i guess if you need to attack you can just let go and push a button right? won't people know if you're holding it or not if it's always done out of a WD/attack? i guess that doesn't really help falco since he wouldn't be able to laser, or would have to fight it knowing he would get the laser PS'd back. still, the tradeoff to be able to PS any laser is worth it if you can minimize how obvious the setup is. can Z-PS be improved normal PS ways like with dash back or crouch? i have a feeling the answer is no but I might as well ask.

Z-PS is weird to Marth's benefit--the game ONLY registers the light shield bubble if you do the inputs, regardless of whether it powershields.

Consequently, Z-PS done out of any actionable state will come out as a light shield which can be changed to hard shield by lifting your finger off of 'Z'. If done out of crouch or either dash, if you don't remove your fingers from the buttons, you will be in an angled light shield. Just like normal PS, you're actionable after shieldstun.

 

[Dr Peepee]

so it doesn't matter, ah well. thanks for explaining!

if anyone has Z-PS setups they've worked up, I'd be happy to know about them. I'll figure it out myself later regardless but any starting info is always good =)

 

[Taytertot]

Yeah I agree that it is a lot easier to react to the full hop approaches if i'm positioned properly. The problem I have with that is that I'm trying to dash as close to the opponent as possible while still being able to deal with sh nair, which leaves me more vulnerable to the full hop.

So I'd have to give up more space in order to grab that approach; I'd probably have to shift my dash dance range before the opponent full hop nairs forward. I'm not sure if I should be shifting my dash dance on reaction or just playing at a further range.

Also good point about the side platforms, I usually only encounter this mixup on battlefield/stadium/fd.

Anyways thanks for the inspiration, I'll be messing around with my dash dance spacing, and try out the tools pp mentioned in his post.

as chivalruse said, you should be able to react to the full hop if you are positioned to react to the short hop and re-position to punish. giving up a very minor amount of space shouldn't be an issue here because fox (or falco for that matter) doesnt really have an answer to take that space without committing to something very punishable. something important to remember is that fox will lose a lot more horizontal momentum in a full hop than he does in a short hop because when fox (or just about any other character) does a running short hop, they start the jump with extra aerial drift that will decay down to that characters max aerial drift (which is a different speed for each character). fox's max aerial drift speed isnt all that good so if he does a full hop he loses a lot of options in adjusting his horizontal position. he can dj but then hes used one of his recovery resources and no longer has any solid ways to avoid you juggling him. he could also shine stall but again hed have to dj out of it which still puts him in a bad spot. this means that fox doesnt have many options in general and hes put himself above a swordsmen.

 

[Kyomaku]

so it doesn't matter, ah well. thanks for explaining!

if anyone has Z-PS setups they've worked up, I'd be happy to know about them. I'll figure it out myself later regardless but any starting info is always good =)

I just started playing around with Z-PS after reading about this myself, but it made me think back to a thread I read a few days ago about hand positioning on your controller, namely this one:

(taken from here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ANO0i36RvUm9DI3kXI4SkyyE2nnG4PLdPd0KS4S3KL4/edit)

So I'd be holding the controller similarly to him in that picture, with the minor difference, that I'd be pushing down my thumb further, making it rest on the a button, keeping it activated. From that position, I was able to do any moves fine with just 5min of practice. Your thumb naturally touches y's edge without moving, so you can input jumps/wavedashes without letting go of a and if you want to attack, you do the normal movement as before, as if you never pressed/held a. My rising aerials didn't feel slower, could still pull off my double fairs to the left and right consistently with the c-stick. Dunno if it impacts rising aerials with a, as I don't use a for them, except for the obvious nair, but I guess with a little practice it should also work.

My conclusion so far is, that it doesn't impact your movement nor attacks (Marth techskill), downsides to be found..

But remember, that's just my first impression from playing around with it for a bit, no idea how comfortable it would be to play like that for a full set. I consider it an option select* atm, since I don't see a downside, yet, where you simply hold a after every single wavedash, unless you want to attack obv, and using wavedashes is pretty common in Marths movement, so you should be ready to Z-PS at almost any point in time.

What does bother me is, that you need to press L and Z at the same time for it to work. Is that true and how tight is that frame window? Is it really the exact same frame? And does that refer to the full L press, all the way in, being timed on the exact same frame as my Z press?

"Thus, the necessary inputs for Z-PS are:
1. Keeping A pressed (can be done during wavedash lag, during the frames 1-3 of a dash that was not done out of turn if the stick is not held forward and during RunBrake , and these are just a few examples)
2. Pressing DP and Z at the same frame"
(from Kadano's post)

Another setup I found in Kadano's post that is actually better than wavedashing and will maybe? work well with your dash back method:

"Setups
Dash: during a dash that is not done from a dashdance, you can hold A during the first 4 frames (while having the control stick at a neutral position. This was found by @schmooblidon and is the fastest A buffer for Z-PS."

Thus wavedashing (an obvious setup) isn't even necessary. Or maybe even hold a during the stage loading screen and just charge Falco and if he dares to laser you're ready to PS chaingrab to death lol. Poor Falco if this is actually easy to master.

I'm pretty curious if you already came up with something as well, this looks pretty promising to me, except for the same frame part, don't know how hard that is to be consistent at until I try it more tomorrow. Also, sorry if this post is kinda messy, I'm very tired..

 

[herbology]

I just started playing around with Z-PS after reading about this myself, but it made me think back to a thread I read a few days ago about hand positioning on your controller, namely this one:

(taken from here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ANO0i36RvUm9DI3kXI4SkyyE2nnG4PLdPd0KS4S3KL4/edit)

So I'd be holding the controller similarly to him in that picture, with the minor difference, that I'd be pushing down my thumb further, making it rest on the a button, keeping it activated. From that position, I was able to do any moves fine with just 5min of practice. Your thumb naturally touches y's edge without moving, so you can input jumps/wavedashes without letting go of a and if you want to attack, you do the normal movement as before, as if you never pressed/held a. My rising aerials didn't feel slower, could still pull off my double fairs to the left and right consistently with the c-stick. Dunno if it impacts rising aerials with a, as I don't use a for them, except for the obvious nair, but I guess with a little practice it should also work.

My conclusion so far is, that it doesn't impact your movement nor attacks (Marth techskill), downsides to be found..

But remember, that's just my first impression from playing around with it for a bit, no idea how comfortable it would be to play like that for a full set. I consider it an option select* atm, since I don't see a downside, yet, where you simply hold a after every single wavedash, unless you want to attack obv, and using wavedashes is pretty common in Marths movement, so you should be ready to Z-PS at almost any point in time.

What does bother me is, that you need to press L and Z at the same time for it to work. Is that true and how tight is that frame window? Is it really the exact same frame? And does that refer to the full L press, all the way in, being timed on the exact same frame as my Z press?

"Thus, the necessary inputs for Z-PS are:
1. Keeping A pressed (can be done during wavedash lag, during the frames 1-3 of a dash that was not done out of turn if the stick is not held forward and during RunBrake , and these are just a few examples)
2. Pressing DP and Z at the same frame"
(from Kadano's post)

Another setup I found in Kadano's post that is actually better than wavedashing and will maybe? work well with your dash back method:

"Setups
Dash: during a dash that is not done from a dashdance, you can hold A during the first 4 frames (while having the control stick at a neutral position. This was found by @schmooblidon and is the fastest A buffer for Z-PS."

Thus wavedashing (an obvious setup) isn't even necessary. Or maybe even hold a during the stage loading screen and just charge Falco and if he dares to laser you're ready to PS chaingrab to death lol. Poor Falco if this is actually easy to master.

I'm pretty curious if you already came up with something as well, this looks pretty promising to me, except for the same frame part, don't know how hard that is to be consistent at until I try it more tomorrow. Also, sorry if this post is kinda messy, I'm very tired..

You have to press them on the same frame. I don't think there is a buffer here, but if your spring has been taken out on the right trigger, the input execution is pretty easy.

I can confirm that buffering inputs after Z-PS is also not too hard to execute. The timing will always be the same after the input so if you read the distance of the laser, you can time setups after the Z-PS. I like wavedashing right after because it covers you not hitting the Z-PS. I also like walk into dtilt or grab depending on the range.

 

[ChivalRuse]

What does bother me is, that you need to press L and Z at the same time for it to work. Is that true and how tight is that frame window? Is it really the exact same frame? And does that refer to the full L press, all the way in, being timed on the exact same frame as my Z press?

"Thus, the necessary inputs for Z-PS are:
1. Keeping A pressed (can be done during wavedash lag, during the frames 1-3 of a dash that was not done out of turn if the stick is not held forward and during RunBrake , and these are just a few examples)
2. Pressing DP and Z at the same frame"
(from Kadano's post)

Ah I thought this might be the case, but I wasn't sure how big the leniency was. I will go back and edit my post accordingly.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I just started playing around with Z-PS after reading about this myself, but it made me think back to a thread I read a few days ago about hand positioning on your controller, namely this one:

(taken from here https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ANO0i36RvUm9DI3kXI4SkyyE2nnG4PLdPd0KS4S3KL4/edit)

So I'd be holding the controller similarly to him in that picture, with the minor difference, that I'd be pushing down my thumb further, making it rest on the a button, keeping it activated. From that position, I was able to do any moves fine with just 5min of practice. Your thumb naturally touches y's edge without moving, so you can input jumps/wavedashes without letting go of a and if you want to attack, you do the normal movement as before, as if you never pressed/held a. My rising aerials didn't feel slower, could still pull off my double fairs to the left and right consistently with the c-stick. Dunno if it impacts rising aerials with a, as I don't use a for them, except for the obvious nair, but I guess with a little practice it should also work.

My conclusion so far is, that it doesn't impact your movement nor attacks (Marth techskill), downsides to be found..

But remember, that's just my first impression from playing around with it for a bit, no idea how comfortable it would be to play like that for a full set. I consider it an option select* atm, since I don't see a downside, yet, where you simply hold a after every single wavedash, unless you want to attack obv, and using wavedashes is pretty common in Marths movement, so you should be ready to Z-PS at almost any point in time.

What does bother me is, that you need to press L and Z at the same time for it to work. Is that true and how tight is that frame window? Is it really the exact same frame? And does that refer to the full L press, all the way in, being timed on the exact same frame as my Z press?

"Thus, the necessary inputs for Z-PS are:
1. Keeping A pressed (can be done during wavedash lag, during the frames 1-3 of a dash that was not done out of turn if the stick is not held forward and during RunBrake , and these are just a few examples)
2. Pressing DP and Z at the same frame"
(from Kadano's post)

Another setup I found in Kadano's post that is actually better than wavedashing and will maybe? work well with your dash back method:

"Setups
Dash: during a dash that is not done from a dashdance, you can hold A during the first 4 frames (while having the control stick at a neutral position. This was found by @schmooblidon and is the fastest A buffer for Z-PS."

Thus wavedashing (an obvious setup) isn't even necessary. Or maybe even hold a during the stage loading screen and just charge Falco and if he dares to laser you're ready to PS chaingrab to death lol. Poor Falco if this is actually easy to master.

I'm pretty curious if you already came up with something as well, this looks pretty promising to me, except for the same frame part, don't know how hard that is to be consistent at until I try it more tomorrow. Also, sorry if this post is kinda messy, I'm very tired..

LOL you can do it out of a dash that is amazing. This just became a lot more viable to me then. Of course there isn't always that much DD'ing in the Falco matchup so I'll have to find other workarounds, but some would be:

-during hitstun or tech animation(especially if falco has to laser to reach me after I've teched, and laser hitstun would be enough as well)
-landing with an aerial obviously
-doing my take laser to jab, I could just hold A afterward
-when edgeguarding or approaching with Dtilt I hold A, and if they double laser after I miss I can just PS it.

I imagine I can think up more this is off the top of my head.

If I can feel comfortable while holding A down in the matchup I think this has a real chance to change the matchup meaningfully(it'll be hard to understand until I've experienced it). It's kinda like going back to 2010 in some ways when we didn't know this stuff about laser heights and so we thought Marths could always PS so we found ways around it.

 

[ChivalRuse]

You can also hold A during the 10 non-actionable frames of a wavedash.

 

[Syaith]

can Z-PS be improved normal PS ways like with dash back or crouch? i have a feeling the answer is no but I might as well ask.

Z-PS is weird to Marth's benefit--the game ONLY registers the light shield bubble if you do the inputs, regardless of whether it powershields.

Consequently, Z-PS done out of any actionable state will come out as a light shield which can be changed to hard shield by lifting your finger off of 'Z'. If done out of crouch or either dash, if you don't remove your fingers from the buttons, you will be in an angled light shield. Just like normal PS, you're actionable after shieldstun.

Quick question. So my understanding is that the powershield sphere is the white bubble + the greenish-blue annulus in Kadano's picture below (whereas the transparent lightblue annulus is the shield bubble). I understand Z-PS increases the powershield sphere so that marth can more easily Z-PS low falco lasers.

But since Z-PS increases the powershield sphere, Z-PS would also increase the frame window for powershielding lasers at certain heights like above marth out of crouch or dash back (assuming one can consistently press Z and digital press R or L simultaneously)? This would be an improvement over normal powershield out of crouch or dash back?

I think this question is tied to what you said about shield being angled/also reflects my ignorance, but does angling a shield affect powershield timings? e.g. using dash back to distort marth's hurtbox lower, then shielding resulting in an angled shield (I find this method hard to PS with) vs. using dash back then letting go of the control stick then shielding (I find this method easier to PS with)

 

[Taytertot]

Dr Peepee you said that in the falco mu there isnt always much DDing. i have plenty of problems using DD properly in this mu and always had the impression that i just wasnt using my frames efficiently enough (i.e. not dashing asap after being hit by a laser). while im still sure this is the case, im assuming that youre saying this because there are times where its better not to attempt to DD in this mu and im curious what types of situations those are?

the reason i ask is because i may be approaching this mu wrong to a certain degree so what does neutral vs falco look like to you?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco neutral is very jerky. Lots of stopping and starting. So take a laser then dash once or twice then another laser and then maybe you PS or jab or something. DD is more for 4+ dashes in my mind and that never happens unless you've discouraged Falco from lasering a lot for some reason such as being close to him.

 

[bts.mongoose]

Okay, quick, potentially pretty complex question but I don't think so?

So in the Peach matchup, I think I have a pretty solid gameplan for avoiding getting hit. I dashdance outside of like, dash attack range, and try to stay close enough to punish her for pulling a turnip. If she jumps then I try to position myself and space to beat out her options with my anti airs. But my issue is, if Peach just literally stood still for the entire game, following my gameplan I'd just continue to dash dance the same distance away and wait for her to do something. So obviously this requires an addendum. My question is: how do I MAKE things happen in the Peach matchup?

 

[FE_Hector]

Okay, quick, potentially pretty complex question but I don't think so?

So in the Peach matchup, I think I have a pretty solid gameplan for avoiding getting hit. I dashdance outside of like, dash attack range, and try to stay close enough to punish her for pulling a turnip. If she jumps then I try to position myself and space to beat out her options with my anti airs. But my issue is, if Peach just literally stood still for the entire game, following my gameplan I'd just continue to dash dance the same distance away and wait for her to do something. So obviously this requires an addendum. My question is: how do I MAKE things happen in the Peach matchup?

You've gotta remember to establish the threat of dtilt. Make Peach fear your dash dance by poking her for being in positions where you can easily just get off that dtilt. Obviously it's a bit more deep than that, but it's a good starting point.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sometimes you poke her with Dtilt and if you know she isn't going to dash attack you can get in closer and try jumping and Fair threatening(more likely to hit and she's more likely to jump or shield).

 

[Taytertot]

Falco neutral is very jerky. Lots of stopping and starting. So take a laser then dash once or twice then another laser and then maybe you PS or jab or something. DD is more for 4+ dashes in my mind and that never happens unless you've discouraged Falco from lasering a lot for some reason such as being close to him.

so would i want to position myself (ideally) just outside of falco's sh nair given that falco hasnt hinder my attempt to dash into that position?

 

[Vista_]

Hi Marths, I'm kind of new to the game and I have a strong difficulty dealing with rush down foxes. This morning I played an extremely aggressive and technical fox on Netplay, and when he took me to Yoshi's I felt helpless. All my up tilts would whiff and he could corner me so that I couldn't dash back on his approaches. I understand this is a big question, but what strategy do y'all employ to beat rush down foxes?

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Okay, quick, potentially pretty complex question but I don't think so?

So in the Peach matchup, I think I have a pretty solid gameplan for avoiding getting hit. I dashdance outside of like, dash attack range, and try to stay close enough to punish her for pulling a turnip. If she jumps then I try to position myself and space to beat out her options with my anti airs. But my issue is, if Peach just literally stood still for the entire game, following my gameplan I'd just continue to dash dance the same distance away and wait for her to do something. So obviously this requires an addendum. My question is: how do I MAKE things happen in the Peach matchup?

If characters are barely outside of each other's threatzones, you can describe the situation by this RPS (simplified, obviously):
If no player uses any move, one player can take space and force the other player to either risk getting hit or give up that space, eventually cornering them.
If you take space too much, the opponent is incentivized to use an attack while moving forward, which will hit because you are moving inside his threat zone and therefore can't react.
Not taking space beats attacking, because you will be able to avoid the attack and punish the endlag. Note that not taking space doesn't mean standing in place and waiting necessarily, but keeping the distance to your opponent.

That way an equilibrium is set up that is influenced by the reward of the individual scenarios, for example on Dreamland giving up space is less of a disadvantage so taking space is disincentivized, while on Yoshi's Story giving up space will corner you very easily, which shifts the balance towards attacking.

Another thing about Marth v Peach, in this thread I've seen the notion that Marth can deal with a Peach with turnip riskfree because dash attack isn't available and you just have to stay in the range where you can fair through the turnip and hit Peach.
While I would agree with that statement in a hypothetical scenario where Peach and Marth start the game in that exact position, in reality, when you are at that range, the turnip could be already on its way towards you and you wouldn't have registered it yet. To achieve the advantageous situation mentioned above, it either needs a bad turnip pull by Peach or some kind of situation that prevents Peach from throwing the turnip at that time, like using a float aerial or shielding.
The threat zone of the turnip outranges Marth's threat zones, and this makes a lot of ranges pretty tricky for Marth because any way to deal with the turnip (catch, shield, hit, evade) has its own disadvantages (I won't go into details here, but there is obviously counterplay for Marth, too).
I think this is important, because if Peach doesn't have a turnip Marth has a huge advantage because of longer threat ranges and faster movement speed, and in most cases Marth wins these sorts of "clean" neutral games, and if it was equally as bad with turnips the matchup would be pretty much a singleplayer where Marth can only lose if he messes up.

 

[KFCutman]

Hi Marths, I'm kind of new to the game and I have a strong difficulty dealing with rush down foxes. This morning I played an extremely aggressive and technical fox on Netplay, and when he took me to Yoshi's I felt helpless. All my up tilts would whiff and he could corner me so that I couldn't dash back on his approaches. I understand this is a big question, but what strategy do y'all employ to beat rush down foxes?

Even if I don't have Melee anymore (rip, and piracy is not what i believe in), remember that Fox's fall speed makes him easier to chaingrabs It's not easy from my experience, but it works, just be sure not to use too much, as just like with any attack, the rushdown Fox can adapt and punish.

You'll also want to be careful with the map. Picking a high ceiling map means you'll rarely get a vertical kill on Fox, while picking one with a low ceiling will get you Up-air'd or up-smash'd in seconds.

Don't forget: You're a Marth, he's a Fox. Firefox is super-easy to gimp.

 

[Dr Peepee]

so would i want to position myself (ideally) just outside of falco's sh nair given that falco hasnt hinder my attempt to dash into that position?

Yeah or at the tip of it since you can react and fight there alright as well. The ideal position to get to is close to Falco while he has no laser out. That's very strong.

 

[Taytertot]

Hi Marths, I'm kind of new to the game and I have a strong difficulty dealing with rush down foxes. This morning I played an extremely aggressive and technical fox on Netplay, and when he took me to Yoshi's I felt helpless. All my up tilts would whiff and he could corner me so that I couldn't dash back on his approaches. I understand this is a big question, but what strategy do y'all employ to beat rush down foxes?

when you say that your utilts are whiffing a lot are you using them in neutral or are they whiffing when you are in the middle of juggling? if youre using them in neutral then id suggest that utilt in neutral is pretty dangerous to use in neutral, especially against fox because fox has great movement for faking approaches and getting you to whiff stuff that he can then punish. marth's utilt is incredibly laggy on whiff which is why many people dont use it in neutral. rush down fox's can be scary to fight because they can easily force people into a flight or fight response. if this causes you to throw out moves preemptively often then they can make you whiff a lot. fox's toolkit and movement work almost perfectly for baiting attacks. If the issue is that youre whiffing utilts while in the middle of juggling then it could be that your timing is off or that the combo wasnt guaranteed and that fox knew he could escape. Or this could be an issue with netplay lag.

chesstiger2612 gave you a great run down of how the push pull of neutral works and how aggressive gameplay can be beaten. i'll throw out some of my personal ideas on how ive dealt with it. i find that faking aggressive dash dancing can be very effective. the reasoning that i prefer to fake aggressive DD while looking to give up space when an aggressive fox approaches with an attack, is that im not giving up space preemptively and im not showing my hand in terms of what my intentions are in neutral. against weaker players or players who dont have much of a neutral game solely defensive DD can work well because they dont recognize that youre intentionally giving up space to punish them over-extending but as aggressive spacies players improve their neutral they look to be more non-committal as they move toward you and if they can get you to give up space willingly then they can get you to put yourself in the corner and then they have no problem opening you up because youre then forced to be the first one to commit to something.

 

[Vista_]

when you say that your utilts are whiffing a lot are you using them in neutral or are they whiffing when you are in the middle of juggling? if youre using them in neutral then id suggest that utilt in neutral is pretty dangerous to use in neutral, especially against fox because fox has great movement for faking approaches and getting you to whiff stuff that he can then punish. marth's utilt is incredibly laggy on whiff which is why many people dont use it in neutral. rush down fox's can be scary to fight because they can easily force people into a flight or fight response. if this causes you to throw out moves preemptively often then they can make you whiff a lot. fox's toolkit and movement work almost perfectly for baiting attacks. If the issue is that youre whiffing utilts while in the middle of juggling then it could be that your timing is off or that the combo wasnt guaranteed and that fox knew he could escape. Or this could be an issue with netplay lag.

chesstiger2612 gave you a great run down of how the push pull of neutral works and how aggressive gameplay can be beaten. i'll throw out some of my personal ideas on how ive dealt with it. i find that faking aggressive dash dancing can be very effective. the reasoning that i prefer to fake aggressive DD while looking to give up space when an aggressive fox approaches with an attack, is that im not giving up space preemptively and im not showing my hand in terms of what my intentions are in neutral. against weaker players or players who dont have much of a neutral game solely defensive DD can work well because they dont recognize that youre intentionally giving up space to punish them over-extending but as aggressive spacies players improve their neutral they look to be more non-committal as they move toward you and if they can get you to give up space willingly then they can get you to put yourself in the corner and then they have no problem opening you up because youre then forced to be the first one to commit to something.

Thanks, let me see if I understand. I shouldn't be retreating unless I have a read that he'll shffl or full hop Nair/Dair and I dash back at the last second to pivot grab, and my goal is to either hold my space or feint an approach in neutral so he can't corner me.
What I should've clarified about the up tilting: When the fox is on a side plat above me he tends to runoff or drop with an aerial. I try to up tilt to catch him on the platform or interrupt his drop preemptively but he typically finds a way around it. I feel like I'm at a disadvantage when I'm below a platform that fox is on (unless I'm juggling him during a combo. I feel the same way when I'm below a fox without a plat between us. If I up tilt or up air he can double jump or stall his fall to the ground and punish my lag, and I don't know how to keep him from hitting me from the air when he's above. I hope this all makes sense, I'd really appreciate any advice on how to stop fox from hitting me when he's above me.

 

[Taytertot]

Thanks, let me see if I understand. I shouldn't be retreating unless I have a read that he'll shffl or full hop Nair/Dair and I dash back at the last second to pivot grab, and my goal is to either hold my space or feint an approach in neutral so he can't corner me.
What I should've clarified about the up tilting: When the fox is on a side plat above me he tends to runoff or drop with an aerial. I try to up tilt to catch him on the platform or interrupt his drop preemptively but he typically finds a way around it. I feel like I'm at a disadvantage when I'm below a platform that fox is on (unless I'm juggling him during a combo. I feel the same way when I'm below a fox without a plat between us. If I up tilt or up air he can double jump or stall his fall to the ground and punish my lag, and I don't know how to keep him from hitting me from the air when he's above. I hope this all makes sense, I'd really appreciate any advice on how to stop fox from hitting me when he's above me.

ah ok so for the utilt scenario since youve got him to respect the utilt and play around it, if fox is already fully actionable (meaning that you havent hit him up onto the platform where he is forced to tech/etc.) then you could sh and throw out a late uair. when you jump fox has to respect that you could rise with an immediate uair (if he isnt respecting this then throw out the uair early to get him to respect it). since he has to respect the danger of being hit by the immediate uair you can just empty jump up with the sh and uair on your way back down. he'll most likely start respecting the early uair with a jump but you should be able to get back down before he can punish you. if you switch to late uair then he'll jump and you'll be landing when he reaches the apex of his jump this allows you to jump up and punish him going airborne.
im sure theres more counter play on both marth and fox's part in this development of metagame but those are some thoughts at least.

in regards to the DD stuff. its not that you should never be retreating but you need to threaten fox with the potential that youre comfortable and willing to approach as well. this is what enforces both sides of the DD mixup game. there are times where based on your positioning in comparison to fox that you can more or less react to fox approaching with nair/dair. you need to be watching for the sh instead of the aerial or the dash in since the dash in could always be a fake and attempting to react to the nair/dair is gonna be too late. space yourslef so that youre at the edge of fox's sh nair range. its important to remember that part of getting fox's to whiff a nair in neutral is getting them to think they are gonna catch you as you dash forward usually. but yes giving up space without a good reason to do so is likely to just get you cornered and killed.

 

[Uma]

For anyone in here that hates the ditto as vehemently as I do, here's some stuff that's helped me in the last month:
-If you're getting hit by anything that won't kill you, DI down and away is normally the answer
-If you get grabbed, DI down and away saves you from fthrow and dthrow because you can tech dthrow if you're holding slight down and obviously you won't get fsmashed after fthrow with correct DI
-For me the biggest change has been stage selection, I lose to random jank on FOD and Yoshi's aot, but tend to beat the same players on Dreamland and FD/Pokemon to a lesser extent because they can't get stupid fsmashes off of say a fthrow putting you on a platform.
-Pivot fsmash is OP in this matchup as is starting fair combos from shield drop, if you've been putting off learning these then go get a controller with shield drop notches and learn to Fing pivot you lazy bum

 

[AirFair]

For anyone in here that hates the ditto as vehemently as I do, here's some stuff that's helped me in the last month:
-If you're getting hit by anything that won't kill you, DI down and away is normally the answer
-If you get grabbed, DI down and away saves you from fthrow and dthrow because you can tech dthrow if you're holding slight down and obviously you won't get fsmashed after fthrow with correct DI
-For me the biggest change has been stage selection, I lose to random jank on FOD and Yoshi's aot, but tend to beat the same players on Dreamland and FD/Pokemon to a lesser extent because they can't get stupid fsmashes off of say a fthrow putting you on a platform.
-Pivot fsmash is OP in this matchup as is starting fair combos from shield drop, if you've been putting off learning these then go get a controller with shield drop notches and learn to Fing pivot you lazy bum

I think you are right with your first couple of points lol. Smaller stages with less room to avoid the sword means that there are more random swings that can hit you if you are off in spacing/timing.

Doesn't pivot fsmash whiff against DI down and away? I don't really like using it at all in the Marth ditto. If I fthrow onstage at like mid percent, and they DI down and away, I like going for techchases, and using late fair to catch their techs in place/missed techs, since it can combo into fsmash so they are offstage/dead. Offstage, you can just take ledge, and force them to recover.

I'm not too familiar with the correct setups for pivot fsmash in the matchup, so I could be mistaken, but as of right now, I don't see the value in it.

 

[Zorcey]

Yeah, I'm like AirFair and haven't found much use for pivot fsmash in the ditto - I'm not aware of any setups for a trap or anything, and I generally opt for more conservative punishes. Seems like it would be pretty useful if there were setups for a tipper pivot fsmash or something, could someone elaborate if there's anything like that?

 

[Uma]

I don't use a setup for them, I just use pivot fsmash and pivot ftilt in neutral when I know they're going to approach with an aerial because it's super fast and doesn't only cover the ground like dtilt.